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aguacate
Germany
44 Posts |
 Posted - May 21 2017 : 4:16:45 PM
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This weekend I had the joy to go to a Acem Meditation workshop for personality development and relaxation.
I stumbled upon this by browsing the community college website of my city.
After reading wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acem_Meditation on it I realised that it is like DM or TM!!  It was started in Norway in the 60s by students and in the beginning they worked together with the TM organisation. They were doctors and wanted to make experiments with the technique which led to a split a few years later.
I signed up to find out the differences and to use it as an opportunity to deepen my DM practice with an experienced teacher from a "sister community".
They have basically taken TM and removed all the religious stuff. They really stripped it down to just the meditation technique. They also made some adjustments better suitable for western people (e.g. you sit in a chair and they recommend chairs or sitting in bed). An Acem teacher has to practice Acem for years themselves before being able to make the teacher training.
For personality development hey recommend 30min twice daily or 45min once a day, if you can't make it twice. For relaxation 15min is also fine.
They have something called "Long-Meditation" done in groups on weekends, 1 or 3 hours, with group discussions afterwards. The group discussion is to talk about problems that came up with the technique or with experiences during the mediation.
It was 60€ for 2 days with 5 hours each, so clearly non profit. Course size was limited to max 15 people, we were 10. In my city they offer group meditations and workshops every two weeks (also non-profit).
For me, the weekend was a full success. I got some interesting background informations on the mediations of the relaxed, unfocussed type (Acem, DM, TM), especially on the rhythm of mantra vs drifting off and the effects of them to each other (called purification in DM I think).
I was able to ask questions about my struggles in DM in person and get very personalised answers to my problems. It was also great to see that very often the others had similar problems.
One of my main problems is to focus too much on the mantra, not letting it go and repeating it not easy enough. The workshop leader gave some instructions on handling those situations better with ease. In a personal chat afterwards I also realised that some of my struggling is partly due to a trait which also appears in my daily non-meditation life.
I will keep contact with the Acem folks and sometimes visit their group meditations to check up my practice. |
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2018 : 1:23:10 PM
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| What was the religious stuff in ™? When I was taught it, I felt the content pretty much non religious. |
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aguacate
Germany
44 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2018 : 5:09:00 PM
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I read that there is a Puja on inititiation for example. Both DM and Acem don't have a Puja or other inititation ceremony.
ACEM and TM separated already in the 70s, so this statement might be outdated now?
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 07:42:41 AM
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From the Wikipedia article: "At times forgetting the sound because one is absorbed by spontaneous thoughts is considered a central part of the technique."
 ... ... |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 08:02:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
From the Wikipedia article: "At times forgetting the sound because one is absorbed by spontaneous thoughts is considered a central part of the technique."
......
Sounds like it could be a good meditation technique for you Bodhi!
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 08:19:33 AM
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Getting lost is where the magic is found, as Yogani would say.
"Not all those who wander are lost." — J.R.R. Tolkien |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 09:10:32 AM
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Hi Bodhi,
I don't think Yogani would say that getting lost in thought and not easily favouring the mantra with your attention, is where the magic is found. I suspect he would say that getting lost in thought and not easily favouring the mantra with your attention, is a sure-fire way to make no progress.
Another word for it is "thinking".
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it” [Jesus Christ]
Christi
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 10:47:13 AM
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"Remember, losing the mantra again and again is the game." --Yogani, from Lesson 79
Losing, favoring, losing, favoring, losing, favoring = refinement of mantra = absorption into stillness |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 11:08:25 AM
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Best to look at Yogani's words in context. He says:
"Remember, losing the mantra again and again is the game. We can't make ourselves lose it. It goes by itself. This is the mind's natural ability to become still."
So he is talking about losing the mantra to stillness, not losing the mantra to other thoughts. The Wikipedia quote describes a different procedure, not the AYP deep meditation.
Of course it is OK to lose the mantra to thoughts, it's a normal part of the process. Holding on tightly to the mantra would be counterproductive - we don't do that. But getting lost in thoughts, whenever that may happen, in itself is not a virtue to be glorified, it's just how things are. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 11:25:57 AM
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P.S. We needn't be afraid of getting lost in thought, nor of losing the mantra. Those are natural parts of the process.
Trying to cling to the mantra strenously and robotically, on the other hand, is a different animal that won't result in the same kind of refinement. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 11:26:54 AM
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| Sorry, cross-posted with Blue. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 11:45:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
So he is talking about losing the mantra to stillness, not losing the mantra to other thoughts.
Incorrect. It's OK to lose the mantra to thoughts, to stillness, or to a combination of both. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 11:48:09 AM
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When you go back to the mantra from lost in thoughts, there is silence. And there can be silence when lots of thoughts are happening. I call it background silence, and the mantra isn't possible. Yeah, it feels better to have silence up front, but it can still be the viewpoint.
I get REM sleep during meditation. Before the eyes start moving, it's a barrage of thoughts. Can't easily find the mantra. The eyes move and the rapid images come. So I guess I end up favoring thoughts, but there's not much choice. There's silence watching the movie. I figure it's just a stage.
Yogani was careful how he worded things. Vague on purpose. Lol |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 11:48:28 AM
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Hi Bodhi,
I think you are taking words out of context.
Deep Meditation is not a practice where we attempt to lose the mantra as many times as possible. It is also not a practice where we sit around thinking about things without returning to the mantra. If we become lost, either into thoughts, or silence, which is something which will never happen deliberately, then as soon as we realize that we are off the mantra, we easily favour the mantra with our attention again.
That is the procedure. It is very simple and does not involve clinging to anything.
If clinging is happening, whether it is to the mantra, or to silence, or to thoughts that are arising, then that is treated as any other thought in the mind, and the mantra is easily favoured instead.
So, the statement: "At times forgetting the sound because one is absorbed by spontaneous thoughts is considered a central part of the technique." would not apply to Deep Meditation practice. That would be a different practice.
Christi
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 12:01:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
When you go back to the mantra from lost in thoughts, there is silence. And there can be silence when lots of thoughts are happening. I call it background silence, and the mantra isn't possible. Yeah, it feels better to have silence up front, but it can still be the viewpoint.
I get REM sleep during meditation. Before the eyes start moving, it's a barrage of thoughts. Can't easily find the mantra. The eyes move and the rapid images come. So I guess I end up favoring thoughts, but there's not much choice. There's silence watching the movie. I figure it's just a stage.
Yogani was careful how he worded things. Vague on purpose. Lol
Hi Lalow,
Lesson 15 describes what to do when thoughts are so overwhelming that it is not possible to return to the mantra.
See here:
" The same procedure applies if you are overcome with a barrage of overbearing thoughts, which may or may not be accompanied by physical sensations. If you can't easily go back to the mantra, just be with the thoughts until they dissipate enough so you can easily pick up the mantra again. Remember, meditation is not a fight with physical or mental activity we may have. These are all symptoms of the release of obstructions from deep in the nervous system. We just let them go. Our job is to follow the easy procedure of thinking the mantra and allowing the process of inner cleansing to happen. This is not a war on the level of the conscious mind. You can never win it that way. We are working from the inside, within and beyond the subconscious mind. In order to do this we must allow the natural ability of the mind to take us in. So learn to think the mantra easily, and let it go in. " [Yogani]
The same applies when silence is so overwhelming that we are not able to return to the mantra. We would simply remain with the silence until we are able to easily favour the mantra.
These are both exceptions to the procedure, which apply in extreme cases, rather than the rule.
Christi |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 12:09:06 PM
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| Okay, Christi, I already know what you quoted. I was just offering a weird perspective, so people don't take sides about what is right. It's vague for a reason to me. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 12:14:25 PM
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Hi Lalow,
Good to hear that you are already aware of that. The REM experience is a stage that happens as the mind is beginning to become calm and still.
Eventually it gives way to something else. It is a good sign of progress.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 12:15:12 PM
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I like that Aguacate has called Acem a "sister" to Deep Meditation. The styles seem congruent.
It's all one big family of techniques for tapping into consciousness. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 12:38:09 PM
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Honestly, never looked up the other practice. . No more spiritual info, this bot is easily overloaded. Would not compute. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 1:09:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
It's OK to lose the mantra to thoughts, to stillness, or to a combination of both.
Yes. All 3, and let's not make it sound as if meditation were all about getting lost in thoughts, as the quote from Wikipedia makes it sound. Mind you, that might also be taking one sentence out of its context. Partial truths are not truths and we don't want to confuse beginners. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 1:42:47 PM
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The best way for a beginner to learn is to dive in and get a feel for the groove of easily favoring. All these clarifications can't replace the deep, deep instincts and intuition that will guide a person in using the mantra skillfully. The clarifications help, but ultimately, every individual person has to learn to trust their own inner navigator and compass. That's what the-guru-is-in-you strategy is all about...hinting, informing, empowering...but not trying to micromanage someone's inner journey.
The mind is a magnificent place. There's more to be discovered here, in stillness and ecstasy. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 1:49:52 PM
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Hey Blue, we are reasonable gals. It's confusing if you can't be lost in thoughts if you are a beginning meditator. 'Cause you can't freaking always favor the mantra. Christi said, " making no progress" for lost in thought, so I gave him an example.
I see it as vague and in between anything someone else says. |
Edited by - lalow33 on Mar 01 2018 1:52:46 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 2:05:01 PM
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Hi Lalow,
Anyone can become lost in thought during meditation whether they are a beginner or advanced. When you realize that you are lost in thought, you easily favour the mantra again. Anyone can do that.
If someone is lost in thought and realizes that they are off the mantra and choose to remain lost in thought, even though they could choose to easily favour the mantra, then that is called "thinking" and is not Deep Meditation practice.
So, I was not saying that someone is making no progress if they are lost in thought. I was saying that someone would be making no progress if they are lost in thought, and choose to remain lost in thought, instead of following the meditation procedure.
You can always choose to favour the mantra, whenever you realize that you are off it, except for in rare cases, when the lesson 15 procedure is followed instead.
Christi |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 2:14:22 PM
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Hi Christi,
Yes, of course. You say, " extreme" examples. Well, that's most of my meditation experience, extreme bliss, silence, now weird R.E.M. Stuff. There's different flavorings that overpower the mantra.
I didn't want other weirdos like me thinking their meditation wasn't making progress. 
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 3:11:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
Hey Blue, we are reasonable gals.
We are. We also have enough meditation experience to know what Cody means, but you don't know who else is reading this topic. Somebody who's just trying to get their head round the DM instructions, reading that "being absorbed in thoughts is the central part of the technique" could get confused. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2018 : 4:48:03 PM
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quote:
Hi Christi,
Yes, of course. You say, " extreme" examples. Well, that's most of my meditation experience, extreme bliss, silence, now weird R.E.M. Stuff. There's different flavorings that overpower the mantra.
I didn't want other weirdos like me thinking their meditation wasn't making progress.
Hi Lalow,
Yes, if you are experiencing extreme over-powering sensations in your meditations, and are needing to revert to the procedure in lesson 15, then you are still making progress. What you are dealing with is a lot of purification happening at once, at the same time as the mind is entering the initial stages of samadhi.
It is a stage that does not last forever and at some point you will begin to move beyond it. You will still experience silence and bliss, deeper than before, but will not be overwhelmed by them.
You are still following the guidelines laid down in the lessons, which is the important thing for making progress at the most rapid rate.
Christi |
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