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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 08:39:52 AM
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quote:
What we are is the unbounded awareness that expresses itself in the world. There is only One here, that is everything - and you are that. You feel connected with everything because you are everything. You function better because your resources are unlimited, your joy is unlimited, everything you focus on opens to your knowledge.
Hi Blanche, thank you for your reply.
Now I completely agree with that last quote. But I don't find that view in Patanjali's scripture. What you say is more rooted in a tantra view, IMO, which is a quite different thing. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 09:53:11 AM
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4.34 then the seer the seeing and seen is one, resting in his own nature.
4.6 Mind born from meditation is crystal-clear
1.17 vitarka-vicara-ananda-asmita-rupa-anugamat samprajnatah....amongst others.
Sorry, have to defend Patanjali 
All great teachers and scriptures say the same, in different words..... |
Edited by - Charliedog on Feb 20 2017 10:03:29 AM |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 11:01:23 AM
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| Hi Charliedog, do you really consider that those few Patanjali sutras do encompass what Blanche wrote?! My POV is quite different. And, by the way, I don't think that all great teachers and scriptures say the same. |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 11:16:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Hi Mykal,
According to Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, we suffer not because forces outside ourselves, but because our misperception of who we are and what the world is. This misperception makes us look for fulfilment in the outside world. The world is changing continuously, and it cannot provide any stable fulfilment. What we actually look for is in us – the inner silent stillness. This silent stillness in our true nature and it is within us constantly.
Compared with focused-attention and mindfulness, the self-transcending meditation techniques like deep meditation and transcendental meditation direct the attention to the inside and quiet the mind, so we could see beyond the veils of ignorance to our true Self. The practice of DM and TM is supposed to be effortless. Even the meditative technique is left behind; thus, nothing disturbs the mirror of the mind. Only a focused and tranquil mind allows an undistorted perception of the Self.
Samyama and Cosmic Samyama expand the awareness. For example, when practiced as Yogani advices before falling asleep, I find that I easily maintain awareness during sleeping and dreaming. Over time, this increase awareness results in a general mindfulness. For example, it is easy to notice the details of day to day life – it seems to me that these details were there before, they were recorded before this generalized awareness became stable, but I had trouble retrieving them from the memory.
Focused-attention and mindfulness do work, but self-transcending techniques seem to work faster, at least in my experience. Let me know if this makes sense to you.
Best wishes for your practice,
Blanche
Hi Blanche,
I have 4.5 years of xp in AYP, and 10.5 in the other type.
Can I ask what your experience is? And how do you measure?
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 7:54:44 PM
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I prefer mindlessness 
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c |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 9:24:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
quote:
What we are is the unbounded awareness that expresses itself in the world. There is only One here, that is everything - and you are that. You feel connected with everything because you are everything. You function better because your resources are unlimited, your joy is unlimited, everything you focus on opens to your knowledge.
Hi Blanche, thank you for your reply.
Now I completely agree with that last quote. But I don't find that view in Patanjali's scripture. What you say is more rooted in a tantra view, IMO, which is a quite different thing.
Hi Ecdyonurus,
Could you explain what you mean when you say that my replay was rooted in Tantra rather then Patanjali? I wrote based on the text and my yoga practice.
My understanding is that Tantra is a set of practices meant to promote the union of Shiva and Shakti within the individual, as a path to attain a state of non-duality between the individual and the corresponding macro-cosmos. The union of Shiva and Shakti in the body seems to be the fundamental of SB. My experience is that there is a correspondence between micro-cosmos (the individual) and macro-cosmos (the universe), as each part of the creation is whole, complete, it is a hologram of the entire creation.
Patanjali says something different, as Charliedog points to with the quotes from the Yoga Sutras. The same argument is made right in the opening sutras (translated by Egenes):
1.2 Yoga is the complete settling of the activity of the mind.
1.3 Then the observer if established in the Self.
1.12 Through practice and non-attachment, the (mental) modifications are stilled.
1.13 Practice is the endeavor to become established in the state of yoga.
1.16 The highest state of non-attachment is freedom from all change, which comes through knowledge of the Self.
1.51 In the settling of that state {nirbija samadhi] also, all is calmed, and what remains is unbounded wakefulness.
Patanjali is a practical teacher, whose philosophical ideas are subordinated to the most effective methods for self-realization. He says that by stilling the mind we get access to the Self. This brings liberation from the constrains of a changing world. What is left is unbounded awareness.
I am interested how this is approached in Tantra.
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 9:47:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mykal K
Hi Blanche,
I have 4.5 years of xp in AYP, and 10.5 in the other type.
Can I ask what your experience is? And how do you measure?
Hi Mykal,
37 years of asanas and pranayama, 24 years of mantra meditation (last 4 with AYP), some familiarity with attention-focused and mindfulness (they are not my daily practice).
Mantra meditation has worked for me. I know a number of people who have practiced DM for 1-2 years, report “glimpses”, and enjoy the benefits of it, while they practice at a moderate pace and maintain a householder life. I know a number of long-term TM practitioners who went through significant shifts. I know two mindfulness practitioners who have had glimpses and even significant shifts. Both of them spend some months every year in retreats. I also know practitioners of loving-kindness meditation and Buddhist Zen. They do report some benefits. Thus, when I recommend DM, I do it because I am familiar with it, and I can testify that it works in the context of an active life.
I am not sure if this answers your questions. What is your experience with mindfulness and DM? |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 9:49:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
I prefer mindlessness
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c
Cosmic,
Mindlessness = Bliss  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 10:35:12 PM
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Ahhh...being in the mind, but not of it...the way of the yogi.  |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2017 : 03:22:26 AM
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Hi Ecdyonurus,
My reply was a bit short, still find it not easy to express what I really would like to say in English.
Patanjali opened my eyes, it was/is my bible for a long time, everything inside me said yes when I purchased the book. The book was/is my roadmap, where I was/am at this journey.
Blanche is a key in explaining where I am not. Thank you Blanche
In the meantime I've read many books of many traditions. First the differences where noticed. Different practices, but as I thought also different outcomes. Some speak of emptiness (shunya) some of love, non-duality, wholeness. Finding Self, Soul, God, That.
I was comparing them. I thought for instance, I don't like Zen, they talk about nothingness and emptiness, it's so cold with Zen, I prefer Love. I prefer Shiva and Shakti. So the writings of tantra where preferred. Each individual can find the teaching that speaks to him/her and also that can change during the journey.
One day was realized all teachings are tools to remove the veils of ignorance and see That. To practice and experience That.
It's like the finger pointing to the moon, I was looking at the finger.
Patanjali is in my eyes complete but without any emotion written.
Yogani is the one who explaines all in very clear language IMO, his writings answered many unasked questions.
Sorry for this simplicity, however I read many English books, the writing stays behind 
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Edited by - Charliedog on Feb 21 2017 05:52:24 AM |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2017 : 04:00:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
quote:
Originally posted by Mykal K
Hi Blanche,
I have 4.5 years of xp in AYP, and 10.5 in the other type.
Can I ask what your experience is? And how do you measure?
Hi Mykal,
37 years of asanas and pranayama, 24 years of mantra meditation (last 4 with AYP), some familiarity with attention-focused and mindfulness (they are not my daily practice).
Mantra meditation has worked for me. I know a number of people who have practiced DM for 1-2 years, report “glimpses”, and enjoy the benefits of it, while they practice at a moderate pace and maintain a householder life. I know a number of long-term TM practitioners who went through significant shifts. I know two mindfulness practitioners who have had glimpses and even significant shifts. Both of them spend some months every year in retreats. I also know practitioners of loving-kindness meditation and Buddhist Zen. They do report some benefits. Thus, when I recommend DM, I do it because I am familiar with it, and I can testify that it works in the context of an active life.
I am not sure if this answers your questions. What is your experience with mindfulness and DM?
Hi Blanche,
Thank you for your answer.
What eludes me still, is, what makes you say this:
quote:
Focused-attention and mindfulness do work, but self-transcending techniques seem to work faster, at least in my experience.
At the moment, I practice AYP only. I can see that there is progress, and I believe it works, although I adjusted the practice to my preferences.
But when I look at the benefits and skills that I developed which help me in real life, I can see only those from the practice of mindfullness techniques (at least those benefits that I can with certainty link to practices).
They enabled me to see that thoughts and emotions are not all mine, and although I am not at the point where I can say 'I am'  , at least I have gained a lot of help to deal with the drama to which my life has lead me.
There has been help from the members of this community here, and I believe their love has helped and is helping me still to grow to a better something.
But concerning the technique I am still a sceptic , although I am obviously still giving it the benefit of the doubt.
When comparing the progress I gained from the two, I am very much in doubt that I could say something like: "the progress I gained from AYP is something I wouldn't get from mindfullness techniques had I continued with my old practice..."
That is why, I asked you, could you explain, in detail, why do you say:
quote:
Focused-attention and mindfulness do work, but self-transcending techniques seem to work faster, at least in my experience.
And I apologize if I disregard references to Patanjali & Co., I was never the one to follow the sciptures. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2017 : 3:56:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
Sorry for this simplicity
Charlied-
Simplicity is best because Truth is simple. |
Edited by - sunyata on Feb 21 2017 4:03:37 PM |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2017 : 8:28:24 PM
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Hi Charliedog,
Your English is very good, and you express yourself clearly. I enjoy reading your posts. |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2017 : 8:29:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Ahhh...being in the mind, but not of it...the way of the yogi.
Bodhi |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2017 : 8:35:54 PM
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Hi Mykal,
You recognize benefits of the AYP practice, but you also suggest that mindfulness might work better for you. Why have you switched?
And do not worry about "I am" - who you are is not at all what you think - be prepared to be surprised.
Enjoy the practice!
Blanche
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2017 : 9:44:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
And do not worry about "I am" - who you are is not at all what you think - be prepared to be surprised.
Blanche
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2017 : 01:19:27 AM
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@ Blanche @ Sunyata
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2017 : 03:55:04 AM
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quote:
Hi Mykal,
You recognize benefits of the AYP practice, but you also suggest that mindfulness might work better for you. Why have you switched?
Hi Blanche,
I switched, because I had symptoms that I could not put understand with normal human reasoning, and I got scared...
I thought I could get support here on kundalini issues, and I feel safer in the community here as opposed to working on my own.
That was my trigger. There was the idea that meditation in AYP style would get me to my goal faster, naturally, but this idea is something that I lately put in question.
I hope that makes it clearer now.
Why do YOU say, that AYP practice more effective than mindfullness practice?
That is something that I still do not see from your answers. I hope you see now why it interests me.
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Pilgrim
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2017 : 08:44:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mykal K
quote:
Hi Mykal,
You recognize benefits of the AYP practice, but you also suggest that mindfulness might work better for you. Why have you switched?
Hi Blanche,
I switched, because I had symptoms that I could not put understand with normal human reasoning, and I got scared...
I thought I could get support here on kundalini issues, and I feel safer in the community here as opposed to working on my own.
That was my trigger. There was the idea that meditation in AYP style would get me to my goal faster, naturally, but this idea is something that I lately put in question.
I hope that makes it clearer now.
Why do YOU say, that AYP practice more effective than mindfullness practice?
That is something that I still do not see from your answers. I hope you see now why it interests me.
Normal human reasoning is only a relative level of comfort, this changes, being scared is understandable it is unpleasant but also passes.
Why must it be one or the other?
Why not do your AYP Practices in formal sitting and let the practice do its thing automatically?
Why not do your mindfulness activities outside of formal sitting?
Not trying to answer for another but offering an explanation why AYP practices are superior comes down to one thing.
Cultivation of the witness.
Concerning Zazen = Sitting Zen very dangerous, this is a mindfulness practice, this can cause Kundalini awakening and uncontrolled and cause damage if the nadis are not sufficiently open.
Been there, done that, do not recommend it. Want to talk about being Scared? Have Kundalini awaken and do so much damage that you are walking with a cane in your late 30's with MRI's showing advanced arthritis in every facet joint of the spine.
It took 4 years of living with pain before the effects passed and the body healed.
AYP practices have the advantage of preparing one for Kundalini, Kundalini is inevitable be prepared.
With the advent of the witness mindfulness is assured.
I have a dear friend he craves experiences, they do not come easily. He is constantly chasing the high octane practice that will get him there faster.
Sometimes ya just gotta pay your dues.
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2017 : 9:38:41 PM
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Hi Mykal,
You ask why I say that self-transcending techniques are more effective than attention-focused or mindfulness. My answer is not based on a scientific study. It is based on my personal experience. Again, I am not saying that attention-focused and mindfulness do not work. In fact, I did practice them at different times, and I found out that they did work – I had experiences of transcendence with both of them, less reliably than with deep meditation, but then I have never practiced them with the same intensity and regularity as deep meditation.
As I said, looking at the people I know, the ones who went through shifts in their identity and their relationship with the world have practiced DM or TM for a number of years. I know only two mindfulness practitioners who report shifts, and these people spend months in silent retreats every year. Month-long retreats are not an option for most of the people. Maybe there are many people like you who have great benefits from mindfulness with a practice in the context of an active life – and I just do not know them.
Last year I went through a 6 months yoga teacher training course. We were exposed to breathing meditation and loving-kindness meditation, and encouraged to practice regularly. I tried to talk with everyone (about 50 people in the course). Nobody reported any significant benefits. In fact, the most anybody got was a regular meditation practice, that is, people were happy to say they had a regular meditation practice. Sure, six months is a relatively short time.
In comparison, I have shared DM instructions (and the AYP website) with a number of people in the last two years. Pretty much everybody says that DM is working, that they are calmer, happier, sleep better, work better, etc. Some report “glimpsed” (experiences of transcendence) and the rise of ecstatic conductivity. A number of people said that DM changed their life. Someone said that DM showed her that happiness was possible. And so on. Getting this kind of results, in a relatively short time, with 10-20 minutes meditation twice a day, most of the days (almost everyone told me that they did not practice everyday), while maintaining regular active life – this is remarkable, at least for me. This method works.
Do I think that everyone would get to enlightenment doing DM? I do not know. But I think that everyone would have a better life doing DM. I am not sure if this answers your question. I am not trying to convince you of anything. The truth is in practice.
The guru is in you. Really.
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2017 : 03:00:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Hi Mykal,
You ask why I say that self-transcending techniques are more effective than attention-focused or mindfulness. My answer is not based on a scientific study. It is based on my personal experience. Again, I am not saying that attention-focused and mindfulness do not work. In fact, I did practice them at different times, and I found out that they did work – I had experiences of transcendence with both of them, less reliably than with deep meditation, but then I have never practiced them with the same intensity and regularity as deep meditation.
As I said, looking at the people I know, the ones who went through shifts in their identity and their relationship with the world have practiced DM or TM for a number of years. I know only two mindfulness practitioners who report shifts, and these people spend months in silent retreats every year. Month-long retreats are not an option for most of the people. Maybe there are many people like you who have great benefits from mindfulness with a practice in the context of an active life – and I just do not know them.
Last year I went through a 6 months yoga teacher training course. We were exposed to breathing meditation and loving-kindness meditation, and encouraged to practice regularly. I tried to talk with everyone (about 50 people in the course). Nobody reported any significant benefits. In fact, the most anybody got was a regular meditation practice, that is, people were happy to say they had a regular meditation practice. Sure, six months is a relatively short time.
In comparison, I have shared DM instructions (and the AYP website) with a number of people in the last two years. Pretty much everybody says that DM is working, that they are calmer, happier, sleep better, work better, etc. Some report “glimpsed” (experiences of transcendence) and the rise of ecstatic conductivity. A number of people said that DM changed their life. Someone said that DM showed her that happiness was possible. And so on. Getting this kind of results, in a relatively short time, with 10-20 minutes meditation twice a day, most of the days (almost everyone told me that they did not practice everyday), while maintaining regular active life – this is remarkable, at least for me. This method works.
Do I think that everyone would get to enlightenment doing DM? I do not know. But I think that everyone would have a better life doing DM. I am not sure if this answers your question. I am not trying to convince you of anything. The truth is in practice.
The guru is in you. Really.
Thank you for your answer.
Whould you say than, that you do not have enough experience with the mindfullness techniques to say to others (from the position of someone whose experience should matter), that DM and TM work better than mindfulness techniques?
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2017 : 04:12:18 AM
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| IMO there are different people with differents needs and different goals, using different techniques and making different experiences. In other words, what is "good" for one person may be "bad" for another one. Also, even the same person changes, so practices may change radically over time even for the same practitioner. So the main question IMO is not which practice is the overall best, but which practice is best for a given single human being in its current life phase. |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2017 : 06:53:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
You ask why I say that self-transcending techniques are more effective than attention-focused or mindfulness. My answer is not based on a scientific study. It is based on my personal experience.
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2017 : 7:52:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
IMO there are different people with differents needs and different goals, using different techniques and making different experiences. In other words, what is "good" for one person may be "bad" for another one. Also, even the same person changes, so practices may change radically over time even for the same practitioner. So the main question IMO is not which practice is the overall best, but which practice is best for a given single human being in its current life phase.
Ecdyonurus, you expressed this idea clearly. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2017 : 01:15:03 AM
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@ Blanche and Charliedog
I thank you for your answers on Patanjali, but I hope you don't mind if I don't write more on that topic in this thread - it would be very much off topic. |
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Mindfullness and Meditation?
