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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 11:46:59 PM
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Hi all,
In one of my ealier post on ecstatic conductivity (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1634) some of you mentioned the Chi Machine. I think it would be nice to collect all the available, reasonably reliable products for stimulating/ smoothing out kundalini. (whether they are truely effective or not )
First, my thoughts on a yoga practice which may be practiced more safely and effortlessly using technology (IF the original yoga practice does work, a big "IF"): there is a practice in kundalini yoga where the yogi sit in padamasana, lift himself up with his hands, and then bump his hip to his ground. This is said to be stimulating and can raise the kundalini. But every reasonably educated man will see the risks here. Now I am think about puting on a vibrator at the lower spine/hip bone. Or, if possible, at the perinium. Water therapy with emphazis on the lower spine/hip bone may be a better but less convenient choice.
What do you guys think?
Now, my thoughts on the Chi machine.
I knew the Chi Machine when I was a kid, and some of my family members are still using it from time to time. But I was then skeptical of its effects and didn't use it for more than 5 times.( By the way, my family doesn't seem to have a awakened kundalini, nor did they report any special experiences.)
I may give it some try again in the near future. Here is my thought NOW: Part of its effects may be (just may be) explained by the change in blood flow, and the sudden contrasts felt by your nerves when you end your session. If you try placing your fingers onto a really fast vibrating machine for a few minutes, you will feel the same thing at your hand and fingers.
If you come up with any thoughts, or if you know any other technological aids for yoga practices, please share with us!
Alvin
p.s.
This post seems fit equally well into the science and yoga forum, I am putting it here just because of the greater attention it will get here!! |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Nov 01 2006 02:03:01 AM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2006 : 04:40:06 AM
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Hi Alvin,
I had previously posted about the "Chi Machine". I suppose that the reason that it produces ecstatic conductivity is that it make you very relaxed (which is when kundalini is most prominent) and that it is gently massaging the entire spinal column. It loosens up, aligns and stimulates the spinal column. I think that it could be an effective tool to activate ecstatic conductivity but once you have it flowing I am not sure that the machine is useful to progress further.
It certainly is a wonderful feeling when you finish using the Chi Machine. Sort of a full body orgasmic feeling.
With Peace,
Paul |
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2006 : 4:07:00 PM
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Hi Alvin and Paul,
I may be entirely wrong on this but my intuition tells me that using external machinery for raising kundalini or shakti is much like using drugs: external forcing of something that will go much more naturally and in balance in your own time when doing the practices within (pranayama/meditation).
Just my 2 cents:-)
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2006 : 12:31:35 AM
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Hi yogini,
I've mistaken you as yogani not just once, at least at my first glance. I'm glad that you don't add "the guru is in you" 
I doubt whether such machines can help raising the kundalini. But if it does, using such machines(I mean, at least the mechanical ones) will be very much like practising. Here we are not changing our biochemistry with drugs, which is very violent to our body. The vibrators or things like chi machine will act only as catalysts, stimulating our body to do its own job just as acupuncture.
If you think that it is unnatural, yes it is. So is pranayama and practices like Yoni Mudra. All such things are not natural in the sense that most people are not born with these knowledge.
Just as we can use a pair of socks to create similar effects of siddhasana in a modern and sometimes better way, so can we do the same for other yoga practices. Of course I'm not saying that they work (I don't even know if certain yoga practices work). Many experiments have to be done, that's why I started this thread for discussion.
Alvin |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2006 : 08:42:57 AM
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| I agree with Alvin. Nicely said. |
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2006 : 4:09:12 PM
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Dear Alvin,
I think you raise an excellent point: comparing the naturalness (or unnaturalness) of machines to pranayama's naturalness (or unnaturalness). I have often wondered how mankind (or the rishi's of ancient India:-) discovered these techniques.... they are timetested in India, that's one thing but not the point here. But there is a difference, Pranayama works WITH the internal body structures, whereas machinery gets in from the outside and works upon (i.e. not within) the bodystructures.
I wonder if I should change my login name... I don't mind, can you think of another cute one for me? :-)
Best! |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2006 : 4:30:23 PM
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Hi yogis
I'm thinking that the "movements" of pranayama are completely natural and in fact a part of what we are. We just aren't used to using them consciously to return to Self. Any thoughts ?
Yogini, I'll ponder name choices for you
Alan |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2006 : 4:56:43 PM
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I agree, I think they are natural.
Everything is natural, it only appears not to be the case when you have a certain reference point.
Everything is natural under their conditions.
It is healthy though for the mind and body to create a reference point in their mind and draw a line between what is natural/healthy vs unnatural/unhealthy for them and theirs. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2006 : 11:07:04 PM
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Not mean to disagree here, but I don't think a discussion of whether something is "natural" or not, which is purely semantical in nature, is of much use for us.
Seems much more useful for us here to discussion the effects directly, if they have any obvious effects at all. That is, at least in principle, something verifiable, rather than our personal opinions on what is "natural" which is very subjective and thus cultural-background-dependent. |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Nov 02 2006 11:56:17 PM |
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2006 : 3:43:26 PM
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Hi All,
That which is Natural is "cultural-background-dependent". That definitely is wisdom to ponder which I will bear in mind Alvin, thank you! I'm sorry to have no experience to share re blissmachines!
Balance: have you come up with something yet? :-) In the first half of my meditation this morning I came up with the idea that I could use my normal name (sometimes I seem to use meditation for figuring out The Big Problems of my life, grin, as in "purification of the brain otherwise cluttered with Problems":-) But in the endpart all of a sudden a thought rose up by itself which said that I shouldn't do that for now as I will probably feel less free to say whatever it is that I might think of:-)
Have a great weekend! |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2006 : 4:43:41 PM
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Hi Yogini
Gosh, this is tough in that I don't know you. How about "natural"? I see you are an astrologer, how about "starmudra"?Or "starchild"? "yogastar" or "yoginstar"? "Sky"? You said you wanted a cute one, how about "cute one"? Boy, tell me if I'm way off track and maybe narrow me in to some ideas.
One who goes by the name of Alan |
Edited by - Balance on Nov 04 2006 4:51:52 PM |
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n/a
26 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2006 : 5:37:36 PM
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Well, I personally like Yoginstar for her, so there's my vote! 
I have used a chi machine before and it helps with back pain and keeps the circulation and lymphatics moving, but I really have to question whether it has an effect on kundalini. There is a nice "buzz" afterwards, but I think that is the extent. But hey, if you get your kicks by calling it ecstatic conductivity, then more power to you!
Highest Blessings,
comdyne
quote:
Originally posted by Balance
Hi Yogini
Gosh, this is tough in that I don't know you. How about "natural"? I see that your name is Joyce, you could change the letters around and make "yojec", well, maybe not. "enjoyce"? Hmm. I see you are an astrologer, how about "starmudra"? Or "starchild"? "yogastar" or "yoginstar"? "Sky"? You said you wanted a cute one, how about "cute one"? Boy, tell me if I'm way off track and maybe narrow me in to some ideas.
One who goes by the name of Alan
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2006 : 6:55:45 PM
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Hi
That was my take on one of those machines. I only used it once, though, before I was doing pranayama.
Hey, yoginstar is my fav too |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2006 : 03:25:28 AM
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I like "Yoginstar" too.
quote:
There is a nice "buzz" afterwards, but I think that is the extent. But hey, if you get your kicks by calling it ecstatic conductivity, then more power to you!
Nice observations But I prefer not to add power in that way! |
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yoginstar2
Netherlands
3 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2006 : 3:20:44 PM
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Thank you guys!
yoginstar it is!
Now how do I delete the Yogini membership I wonder... I read the FAQ but I guess no one ever undoes their memberhsip here... , I did read how to get smiley's though [:-)} |
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n/a
19 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2006 : 3:49:03 PM
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Yoginstar,
AYP moderator here. It is a good thing that your name does not look like Yogani, and the moderators are happy to help you with that, however, we have a better solution than closing your old membership. Please continue to use "Yogini" for a few days. It is possible to change your handle to "Yoginstar", so all your "old" posts are still yours. Please don't post under "Yoginstar", for these reasons.
Does that make sense?
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Edited by - n/a on Nov 04 2006 3:49:58 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2006 : 3:51:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yoginstar
Thank you guys!
yoginstar it is!
Now how do I delete the Yogini membership I wonder... I read the FAQ but I guess no one ever undoes their memberhsip here... , I did read how to get smiley's though [:-)}
Hi Yoginstar:
Your old ID can be changed by an admin to the new one if you like (it would change on all the old posts too). The new Yoginstar name would have to be changed or deleted first. Let me know. We'd not like to lose your great posts from before, by whatever name.
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2006 : 4:35:21 PM
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Good name, Yoginstar. I have experienced the same thing as Alvin, sometimes confusing your name with Yogani's.
I agree with Alvin and Kyman about "Natural" and "Unnatural" and can add a little more. They are basically "weasel-words", sneaking something in below the radar of reason. When you shine the light of reason on them, the real content of "natural" (as opposed to "unnatural") breaks down.
If you say something is "natural", what you are saying is not much more than that you approve of it in some way, having as you do some personal/cultural comfort with it, which may be born of nothing more than familiarity. Likewise, "unnatural" really only indicates the reverse; you are expressing some disapproval, having as you do some subjective personal/cultural discomfort with it.
So "natural", while really not much more than a marker of a kind of subjective approval, is often presented as a reason to approve. But stating approval is never the same as stating reasons to approve. However, when people hear "it is unnatural", they think that they have heard a reason to disapprove of it. They actually haven't, they have only heard disapproval being stated, without reasons. So it is a weasel-word in the sense that it sneaks something in below the radar of reason.
Yoga is actually all about catalyzing and awakening innate deep skills and functions in the body/mind/spirit. There is no point in talking about whether our methods of catalyzing and awakening them are natural or unnatural or not, only how effective they are.
By the way, we don't seem to have any effective drugs for doing the function of Yoga, that is catalyzing yogic processes. However, there is no reason that they won't be discovered some time, maybe in decades to come. The only useful debate if and when such things are discovered is what is the cost/risk/benefit/effectiveness of such substances, taken individually in their own merits, not whether they are natural or unnatural or not, since nothing humans ever do or use can rightly be categorized either way.
If a pill shows up that starts a major yogic purification, I'm all for it. Perhaps if it does, then all these principles of self-pacing will carry over to the use of such drug.
However, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to show up.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 04 2006 4:40:51 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2006 : 4:59:55 PM
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Hi guys
When I said I thought pranayama was natural I was refering to the fact that these actions (breathing, the movements of prana & etc.) are all part of our creation and who we are as manifestations. Pranayama and meditation is like following an innate path to the source that breathes us. Just my take on it.
Peace, Alan |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2006 : 7:58:54 PM
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BTW, I'm not putting down the use of the words "natural" or "unnatural". They certainly have their place -- we just have to understand their limits. ( On the other hand, there is a specific meaning of "natural" which is never really problemmatic, which is in the sense of being easy and instinctive for the body-mind. )
The problematic usages occur when people believe the words say something conclusive and decisive in themselves; in other words believe that they effectively turn a case for or against something. In practice, I think that problematic use of "unnatural" is much more common than problematic use of "natural": the problematic use of "unnatural" occurs when someone puts something down as "unnatural" as if that has provided a reason that that something is bad. A problemmatic use of the word "natural" is probably less common -- or tyically less problematic.
Examples of usages of "unnatural" that I think problematic, and relevant to us here, is applying the term "unnatural" to yoga postures, as if that in itself decides that they are bad or inappropriate; or to meditation (yes, it gets done!); or to tantric sexual practices; or to amaroli; or to frenum-snipping.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 05 2006 10:29:11 AM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2006 : 08:51:09 AM
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We can almost start a new topic on "a list of confusing words in yoga"!
Taking this opportunity, let me collect some of the words that are really confusing to me. There was a time when I thought they're confusing just because of my poor English. But let's examine them. I'm sure there are many different definitions among you (if you ever have a definition or at least a rough meaning in mind before you use them!). The miracle is that yogis(and other spiritually-inclined people) keep their (our) discussions going for such a long time; and the price is a poor quality in the discussions and thus the conclusions. An even more severe and prevalent problem is that spirituality seems almost never reach people with a clear and rigorous mind, since discussing yoga with such vague terms make it looks more like religion and imaginations rather than actual experiences.
Here is a partial list of such words. If anyone feels appropriate and helpful, may be we can start a new topic
Energy--
Related words: vibrations
What is that, really? Certainly not "energy" as in Physics. Do you mean a subjective feeling of "something" (just as when you're having sex)? Or a sense of well-being and strength which will allow you to run 42km or read 10 books in a row? Kundaini? prana?
It's ok for you to use "energy" to mean anything. But problems arise when you switch the meaning with the same word. If you (or your audience) are a "verbal" person who tends to use words for reasoning, such "double meaning" can impede your reasoning power by extending your conclusions to something you don't have, and probably wrong. In particular, please don't think you work the same way as an atomic bomb just because the word "energy" appears in physics texts.
Powerful (usually in "powerful practices/exercise")
"This practice is very powerful" is certainly something we hear very often when learning a new yoga practice. I wonder whether there is any powerless practices! For this reason, this phrase soon lose it power on me : it really sounds meaningless!
Actually, it could be a helpful word if defined properly. But notice now different the following possible meanings of "powerful" are; and how often the word are used (and interpreted) without an awareness of which meaning it carries in that context.
a) The practice shows its effects quickily.
b) The practice plays an important role in your path to enlightenment.
c) The practice is a follow-up of some other practices, the series of which will lead you to enlightenment.
d) the practice give you physical strength/endurance.
e) the practice give you mental strength.
f) the practice is powerful in its pyschological effects because of its highly mythologized history (sorry to add this, but I think this is true in certain practices, particularly in certain Qi Qong traditions here in China. I'll support my thoughts if necessary)
Enlightened
In this case, the vagueness seems to be acceptable. However, I would still like to know why certain people can say so conclusively that certain guru-like person is enlightened. It must due to some of your observations about them. In other words, if there are no external expressions of being enlightened, it makes no sense to say someone is enlightened (although much easier to say who's not). So what are those expressions? Are you sure they can't be faked?
Alvin |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2006 : 10:01:37 AM
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quote:
spirituality seems almost never reach people with a clear and rigorous mind
Hi Alvin,
This is an interesting topic about "confusing words in yoga". I disagree with the strength of the statement above. I know several people with a clear and rigorous mind who are into spirituality. (And, how do we define spirituality?) However, there may be relatively less people into spirituality who have a clear and rigorous mind. An explanation could be that those who have a clear and rigorous mind tend to rely on this capacity as a strength in life, as a way to seek truth through logic and reason, and be less inclined to seek other avenues of truth, like spirituality.
If energy is used to describe phenomena outside of the physical world, then I think it's still appropriate to use the term as it is defined in the dictionary: as "the potential for causing changes".
About "powerful". Most humans tend to seek the easy way, not having to elaborate, therefore using words like "powerful" as a shortcut to express something that has a considerable effect on something else. |
Edited by - weaver on Nov 05 2006 10:06:35 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2006 : 11:45:35 AM
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Hi,
Energy--- did not Einstein state that all mass is electrical energy? This is energy in the terms that yoga uses it just as in healing etc.
L&L
Dave |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2006 : 11:52:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by weaver
quote:
spirituality seems almost never reach people with a clear and rigorous mind
Hi Alvin,
This is an interesting topic about "confusing words in yoga". I disagree with the strength of the statement above. I know several people with a clear and rigorous mind who are into spirituality.
I consider myself to be a person with a rigorous mind
The topic of "Confusing words in yoga" is certainly a very interesting one.
And adressing your point f):
quote:
f) the practice is powerful in its pyschological effects because of its highly mythologized history (sorry to add this, but I think this is true in certain practices, particularly in certain Qi Qong traditions here in China. I'll support my thoughts if necessary)
I like very much to practise Tai Chi/Qi Gong.
Some people may mythologise the teachings/practices,
I don't think that I myself do this, anyway, the practice
is powerful for me (as is yoga), both have effects on me.
The word powerful for me here means: gaining energy,
balancing energy, developing the nervous system,
developing my capacities.
(And by the way Alvin, my post is not meant critisizing you
in any way, it is meant encouraging to keep posting ) |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2006 : 12:09:09 PM
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Alvin,
the best 'translation' I can give for 'energy' in the sense it tends to get used in yoga, is 'a nervous-system dynamic'. Well, that's pretty vague, but some more can be said....
It seems to me that our nervous-system is constantly switching and gating, and, while the whole thing is extremely complex, there are certain gross patterns. One thing is that at any time we have a sort of internal posture, which is our mental and emotional state; our internal posture reflects both our thoughts and processes, and also the thoughts and processes that are likely from our current state. Certain gates are 'closed' making certain pathways unlikely, others are open, making other pathways likely.
The word 'energy' is used to mean this internal posture, and/or also the shifting of internal posture.
So we can speak of someone with 'loving energies' or 'angry energies' or 'needy energies' or 'grasping energies' etc.
The posture itself is changing constantly, by events and thoughts. 'Energy' (internal posture) is expressed heavily in body-language (I mean body-language to include facial expression, tone of voice, movement and gestures). A drama-director will ask for a certain 'energy' from an actor. Really, they want the body-language that seems to go with that 'energy', or internal posture.
I hope that helps. It's vague in its own way too, but a certain amount of vagueness is inevitable.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 05 2006 3:39:23 PM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2006 : 02:25:22 AM
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quote:
Energy--- did not Einstein state that all mass is electrical energy? This is energy in the terms that yoga uses it just as in healing etc.
I'm sorry to say that this is a typical example of the confusion I'm refering to. Simply "stating" something means nothing until you make sense of it; and thinking that you've made sense of something is not the same as really having made sense of it. How do we know where we are? Verifiability is one of the keys.
quote:
(And by the way Alvin, my post is not meant critisizing you
in any way, it is meant encouraging to keep posting )
Wolfgang, I don't mind criticism, really. If you think that I may mistake your post for a criticism, the probably you mistook my thoughts on Qi Qong as a once-and-for-all comment. The heavy mythologised practices I was refering to include the exact number that Chinese tend to follow. For example, instead of a rough number of rounds you should do for a practice, you have to do exactly 81 (say) times; no less and no more. Now as long as no one can show me how to get these numbers; and/or show experimentally the effects of these numbers, I am all against them. Anyone think they have too much time for numbers should spend some time on a rigorous course in number theory instead.
David, I think your definition on energy represents pretty well the common usage in the yogic world. This is all ok for me. But the same group of people also like to say "XXX increases/absorbs my energy". What do they mean then? Certainly they assume that "energy" is generally a good thing. (In contrast with your relatively natural and open-ended description) Here is a quick example by Wolfgang:
quote:
The word powerful for me here means: gaining energy,
balancing energy, developing the nervous system, developing my capacities.
um...I hope the Qi Qong won't give me "sad energy" or "angry energy". "negative energy" is another common term from yogis. What's that? Is "gaining negative energy" a gain or a loss? Finally, can anyone tell me the meaning of "negative loving energy" or "positive sad energy"?
Ok, I'm not trying to point out the correct use of this word. Just to show you guys how confusing this word is. You guys gave me 3 different definitions of "energy", most of them are quite different from the others.
For David's definition (not in the sense of being used by David), I think it's much clearer if we say that a certain person/teaching/practice will make us happy/filled with (a sense of) love. That is qualitatively clearer than the energy language, and with fewer words. The energy language is mythologised and will only create much misunderstanding.
"the potential for causing changes" is difficult to translate (at least by a Chinese like me) and thus seems to be a good meaning for "energy". So "increased energy" will then make some more sense. |
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Technological helps for kundalini!?
