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Late Bloomer
Canada
22 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 16 2016 : 3:16:57 PM
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Hello all,
I'm very grateful for this incredible resource Yogani has collected (and simplified!), and all of the people who have shared their wisdom here. This is my first post on the forum.
I have a question (I tried searching around the forums but couldn't really find an answer): Is it possible the "Isha Kriya" process with Sadhguru is doing something very similar to AYP's DM practice? (After experimenting with this, I get the feeling the DM is a kriya or kriya-like process too?)
After a few days of reading about it, I have been very excited to begin on the AYP set of practices, but for about 3 weeks I've been doing Isha Kriya twice a day. I am going for the full 48 day "mandala" and then maybe I'll drop it to once a day from there. (Isha recommends a minimum commitment of either twice a day for 48 days, or once a day for 90.)
Here's how it goes:
1. mentally recite "I am not the body" on inward breaths, and "I am not even the mind" on outward breaths with eyes closed, maintaining a mild focus between the eyebrows
2. Vocally repeat "Aah" 7 times, just loud enough to feel vibrations around the navel.
3. Continued silent focus between the eyebrows
The entire process is around 15 minutes, each time. In the morning I shower, do most of the Isha Upa-Yoga practices, eat, do Isha Kriya (it says you can eat beforehand on the website), then get into my daily activities. In the evening, I tend to do Isha Kriya not long before I go to sleep. (Actually at any time of day I seem to find my body getting ridiculously loose and "sleepy" when I meditate, even though my consciousness is quite wide awake.)
In the middle of the day sometime, I also do a basic, vanilla 12-15 minute mindfulness meditation (something I am not new to, but deviated from doing many years ago due to problems I had at the time).
Yesterday I was listening to the radio interviews with Yogani on Youtube about how Deep Meditation operates and it occurred to me that just maybe DM is actually a different way of doing the same thing IK does, and that even reducing it to 10 minutes is not going to make a difference because I've already got that base covered for the day with my two processes of Isha Kriya. Technically, "I am" is a part of the mantras in Isha Kriya, and the vibrations at the navel are meant to utilize the intersection of nadis at the manipura (chakra) to distribute that message's "energy" all over the body.
Can I get any thoughts from people on this? I experimented a bit with replacing my mid-day mindfulness with DM, with uneven results (even with shortened time and rest afterward). I'm leaving the specific results I had out as it was neither all good nor all bad, but I suspected at first that the two practices are incompatible and now I just think there's just too much overlap to consider them separate practices.
Thanks so much for reading!  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2016 : 6:55:15 PM
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I saw Sadhguru in Tampa at one of his little satsang events, and he led the crowd in his "I am not the body, I am not even the mind" gimmick. I just tuned him out and did some much more powerful samyama.
A quick way to land yourself in a mental trap (we call it non-relational self-inquiry in AYP) is to turn the mind against itself by by reciting those kind of algorithms and trying to forcefully detach from the body/mind.
The truth is: We are the body and mind, just as much as we are the stillness and the consciousness underneath. We are everything, and we are nothing, paradoxically. Through Deep Meditation, we purify and open the nervous system (which is the window between body, mind, and consciousness), thereby allowing ecstatic bliss to permeate our organism, and beyond. Very simple.
Sadhguru is operating on a more traditional guru paradigm. AYP is operating on a radical paradigm of open-source, self-directed spiritual practices, hence Yogani's motto of "The guru is in you."
In samyama, we have an advanced sutra of "I thought - Who am I?", which is released into stillness like an open-ended question—not trying to negate body/mind, nor cling to it. You may find it highly effective. I certainly have.
Good luck! 
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 04:26:47 AM
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Hi Late Bloomer, welcome!
I second Bodhi's advice.
I don't know the practice you described, but it sounds very, very different to AYP deep meditation. The fact that "I am" is contained in that longer mantra does not mean that DM is included or even similar to that practice.
For me, repeating mantras telling myself that I am not this and not that is not a pleasant vehicle toward meditation. If you like it, fine. But, as Body wrote, thinking that one is not a bidy and a mind sounds untrue to me. We may be more than just a body and a mind, but in this world we are at least a body and a mind - denying that sounds like a f***ing mental/spiritual sucide to me. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 05:39:13 AM
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HI Late-Bloomer and welcome!
Somewhere in Life we will find spiritual practices, there are many, and ever so many teachers. All practices have one thing in common, they will lead you to the development of inner silence and eventually to enlightenment.
We have to start somewhere and somehow we will find a teacher or source that speaks to us.
All teachers and teachings have there own set of tools, to use with care and wisdom.
It is up to you, which way to go, I would advice you not to mix up tools and practices before you know how and what they do for you. This takes time.....
AYP is complete as it is, nothing more is needed. You can start here http//:www.aypsite.org/10.html
Wishing you a smooth journey 
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 2:16:00 PM
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A little more on the matter:
I have a dear friend who knows some Isha devotees who experienced some major problems while doing Sadhguru's kriyas. Apparently, the more they did the kriyas, the more they were attracting low-vibration non-physical entities into their home. It became so haunted that they had to move out. True story.
I'm not trying to validate the correlation. I'm merely relaying the details that were told to me by a reputable and trustworthy friend. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some unfriendly vibrations attached to his package. He is worshipped like a god by his closest followers, and that kind of dynamic is shadowy and bizarre, to say the least.
I wish him and his devotees the best. I think he has some nuggets of wisdom in his talks, but like I said, when I saw him in person, I was mainly bogged down and had to transcend to a deeper level. Then again, I'm spoiled, because I bask in the high-vibration radiance of AYP's budding and vibrant non-guru community.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so to each his/her own! |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 2:32:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
We may be more than just a body and a mind, but in this world we are at least a body and a mind - denying that sounds like a f***ing mental/spiritual sucide to me.
Right!? Amen.
Where Soul Meets Body:
https://youtu.be/uizQVriWp8M |
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Late Bloomer
Canada
22 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 4:06:10 PM
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Everyone, thank you for the warm welcome and your thoughts on Sadhguru and Isha Kriya.
I have probably listened to way too many Sadhguru videos by now, so I hope you'll be open to me playing devil's advocate with some further inquiry. Truth be told, I am currently leaning toward finishing those 48 days to see what happens, but then letting go of Isha Kriya after that, but I partly want to just drop it and go with the AYP practices + Isha Upa-Yoga only. I've been reading the AYP lessons slowly for a number of days and am currently on 23. No matter what happens, I get the feeling I'm going to end up continuing with AYP. It's just a matter of how soon. But can I just ask a couple more questions?
I have indeed been frustrated at times by how Sadhguru sometimes talks about the amazing potential of the human mind and such without elaborating further, but aside from him not dangling such carrots, I find it similar to Yogani's tendency to stress that practitioners not focus on "scenery." Can anyone articulate an actual difference there? Does AYP encourage use of siddhis, perhaps?
Further to this, when Sadhguru talks about the mind and body in his talks, he's quite clear that they and the physical world are real, and wonderful things worth enjoying. He seems to cherish using them from what I can tell anyway. Sadhguru also seems to believe life is worth hanging on to as long as you can. As a result of hearing such things from him, I've only interpreted the "I am not..." mantra as being about a consciousness existing behind it all and not about there being something wrong with enjoying the mind or body. Is there something about the mantra I maybe don't understand, or other things he's said that I've missed which lead to it being about disconnection from the body only?
If the lessons are going to clarify this, I guess I'll get there eventually, because I'm going to keep reading them regardless, but at the moment I'm just not clear on where the problem (as someone mentioned in another thread) lies in that mantra. Apologies for my obvious ignorance on these matters! I am only a few weeks into learning about all of this stuff and it's still very new to me! |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 4:54:24 PM
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Hi Late Bloomer,
One more welcome!
quote:
Originally posted by Late Bloomer
I have indeed been frustrated at times by how Sadhguru sometimes talks about the amazing potential of the human mind and such without elaborating further, but aside from him not dangling such carrots, I find it similar to Yogani's tendency to stress that practitioners not focus on "scenery." Can anyone articulate an actual difference there? Does AYP encourage use of siddhis, perhaps?
AYP does not encourage pursuing siddhis. They might occur in some forms and that would be fine, but chasing them is seen as a distraction.
As for Sadhguru's talking about the amazing potential of the human mind, it is partly a reference to how most people are under-utilising the natural potential they are gifted with as human beings.
quote:
Originally posted by Late Bloomer
Further to this, when Sadhguru talks about the mind and body in his talks, he's quite clear that they and the physical world are real, and wonderful things worth enjoying. He seems to cherish using them from what I can tell anyway. Sadhguru also seems to believe life is worth hanging on to as long as you can. As a result of hearing such things from him, I've only interpreted the "I am not..." mantra as being about a consciousness existing behind it all and not about there being something wrong with enjoying the mind or body. Is there something about the mantra I maybe don't understand, or other things he's said that I've missed which lead to it being about disconnection from the body only?
Yes, both Yogani and Sadhguru have a pro-life perspective. The practices are for expanding our scope and experience of life.
The "I am not..." mantra is indeed to instill a change in limited consciousness.
It being about a disconnection from the body only, is an interpretation. It may have this kind of effect on some practitioners (especially those that tend to think a lot without a deeper sense of experience about what they are thinking about). If the effect is one of bringing stillness and expanded consciousness, there would be no reason to worry about using it.
There will be many perspectives on the effectiveness of the practice, depending on who you speak to. What matters is how it works for you.
The practice is related to self-enquiry. Yogani warns for using this technique too soon, in which case it is called non-relational enquiry, to which Bodhi referred.
Whether it is too soon or not for you, again, the best person to know is probably you. You can read the lessons on enquiry and feel it out for yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by Late Bloomer
If the lessons are going to clarify this, I guess I'll get there eventually, because I'm going to keep reading them regardless, but at the moment I'm just not clear on where the problem (as someone mentioned in another thread) lies in that mantra. Apologies for my obvious ignorance on these matters! I am only a few weeks into learning about all of this stuff and it's still very new to me!
There needs not necessarily be a problem with the mantra depending on who practices it and for how long. The posts above were more a warning for non-relational self-enquiry. You can read more about this here: http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
Here at AYP, a spontaneous form of self-enquiry is seen as more relevant practice, hence the perspectives you read about before.
The mantra that you mentioned "I am not the body" "I am not even the mind" actually combines different practices in one. On the one hand it has a stillness component (reciting the mantra tends to still the mind). On the other hand, it may effect self-enquiry after the practice. On top of that, it works with the breath, hence bringing balance and symmetry in the polarity of our being.
Whether it will be more or less beneficial to an individual practitioner depends on how successful the mantra will be in each of these components.
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Edited by - Omsat on Dec 17 2016 6:41:16 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 5:01:42 PM
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AYP is laying the groundwork for more siddhis to come to the forefront. Yogani has said that the greatest siddhi of all is joy, which I agree with. Joy is love in motion. Joy is the unmanifest becoming the manifest. Joy is the center of Being.
The "I am" mantra in AYP, as you've probably already read and deduced, has no meaning. It is merely an acoustic vibration that resounds in the interior, like a musical note played on an instrument. So, that's a lot different than the "I am not the body" mantra Sadhguru uses. Our mantra is more flexible and malleable, which in turn yields significantly more depth. We are interested in depth here. Deeper and deeper into stillness we go.
There is a form of self-inquiry called neti neti ("not this, not that"), which is a kind of pulling back into the center of silence. Since the body is like a vehicle we're driving, but the not the driver itself, per se, it's useful to stay centered in silence for optimal driving. But here's the thing. The silence touches the vehicle and the hands that are driving, so in some sense, the vehicle and the driver are One, yes?
Deep Meditation is about dropping into the depths of the driver, so that the vehicle can be driven with increasing skill, dexterity, and excellence. That's what refining the mantra accomplishes.
Hope this helps.  |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Dec 17 2016 5:32:02 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 5:57:30 PM
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Hi Late Bloomer,
Welcome to the forum.
All the things you are asking about will be answered as you progress through the main lessons. Some of them don't come up until the later lessons because they relate to advanced stages of the path.
The issue of identification with the mind and the body is a subtle one. It is not an all or nothing thing. It is not the case that we are the mind and the body and it is also not the case that we are not the mind and the body. The whole purpose of yoga is to come to know the truth about this matter. It is not something that can be understood from an intellectual point of view and in fact a great deal of groundwork has to be done first, in terms of purifying the body and the mind to be able to gain this knowledge.
Purification through spiritual practice cultivates inner silence and there needs to be enough inner silence present, in order to see the truth of our own nature.
If you want to skip ahead and read up on it, then you may find lesson 329 (first 8 paragraphs) interesting and also lesson 350. But be careful about skipping ahead. It is best to progress through the lessons in order and put the groundwork in place first.
Omsat is right in that practices that involve dis-identification with the body and the mind are about cultivating the witness and helping us to see that we are the underlying awareness that is present before objects arise in consciousness and after they disappear. It is about the cultivation of a particular stage on the path and a very important one.
Christi |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 7:53:35 PM
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P.S. Here are a couple of my favorite sutras (for siddhis) in the Samyama appendix:
26. Elements – mastery over the five elements (earth, water, fire, air, and inner space), enabling manipulation of all matter, including the size, appearance and condition of the body.
27. Organs of Action – mastery over the five organs of action (hands, feet, vocal chords, sexual organ and root/anus) and the ability to project actions from a distance.
Of course, the core 9 sutras are advocated to be used on a daily basis before trying to implement any of the extra ones in the appendix. The idea is to take a balanced, wholesome approach, rather than getting obsessed with one particular power.
Although, the case could be made that life lived as an individual personality is meant for specialization in certain crafts. Isn't that the case already? We have plumbers, electricians, painters, architects, massage therapists, yoga instructors, and so forth. Mastery in a craft is a divine quality. We wouldn't be progressing on the whole if not for specialization and interdependence amongst individuals. I don't see why that principle couldn't be applied to the realm of siddhis.
Anyway, just to be crystal clear, we are in the business of cultivating miracles here, including the ones in the appendix. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 8:30:03 PM
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Hi Late Bloomer,
Welcome to the forums! Plenty of good advice already.
Miracles in daily living = Samyama.
Enjoy your journey.
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 9:23:51 PM
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| Meditation eventually opens up both silence and the "body electric"; samyama practices for me share this pudding with all who encounter me. This has made my world a better place. |
Edited by - Dogboy on Dec 17 2016 9:26:23 PM |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2016 : 9:30:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy
Meditation eventually opens up both silence and the "body electric"; samyama practices for me share this pudding with all who encounter me. This has made my world a better place.
Amen! |
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Late Bloomer
Canada
22 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2016 : 2:40:11 PM
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Thank you again everyone for shedding more light on this topic. I have read and reread everyone's posts and will be reading further on the parts I don't understand (i.e. "neti neti" and "non-relational self enquiry). Yesterday I got through lesson 30 and I'll be continuing in order from there, but first I'm going to have a quick look through lessons 325, 329, and 350 as mentioned above so that I can at least get a rudimentary idea of whether Isha Kriya is having the intended effect or not.
To that end, I'll also tell talk a bit about my experience. It's been three and a half weeks since I started Isha Kriya. Within a week of starting it, I found I was able to stay calm much more of the time. (And let's just say I have plenty of "opportunities" in a day to check if I'm keeping my cool.  ) There were little slips where things got to me, or I still felt the usual dread in the pit of my stomach at certain recurring situations (particularly when tired or sensorily overloaded), but for the most part I could stay calm all day instead of just pretending to. (Sometimes I felt the usual overblown emotion at a far more reasonable fraction of what it used to be; other times I didn't even notice the typical unnecessary reaction occurring at all.) When I added a mid-day mindfulness meditation (just focusing on breath with relaxing background music in my headphones), that long-lasting calm seemed further sustained with a slight boost in energy, like it was "recharging" my batteries.
As I mentioned above though, for three days last week, I experimented with replacing the mid-day mindfulness with AYP's beginning DM practice. Here are some things I noticed:
1. "head shocks"
The first day was 20 minutes and for a few seconds at the start, there were weird "shocks" around my head like a cross between ASMR and static electricity. The next two days were 15 + rest. On the second day I got the shocks at the beginning again, but also felt more refreshed with rest at the end. All three days the actual meditation proceeded very smoothly.
2. differences in ability to focus on mantras
In practice, I noticed that concentrating on the "I am" mantra without vocal support (I use the downloadable audio support for Isha Kriya), my mind behaved differently. On IK, I sync up my breathing with Sadhguru's voice just fine for the in breath and out breath, but my thoughts wander easily and frequently. With DM, I did not try to cling or force the mantra, I just let it out "easily" as instructed, and yet I was able to stay on it for long periods before thoughts took me elsewhere. In both cases, my mind seems to multitask me into distraction. I am on the mantra, then both the mantra and another train thought simultaneously, then fully in thought alone.
3. early "ecstatic bliss" ???
I caught myself at least three different times having short episodes of what I strongly suspect to be ecstatic bliss. (I have never experienced anything like that before, but now I think I have an idea what Sadhguru means when he says he's "drunk" all the time, except with total clarity.) I'm sure I must not have been ready for that so soon, because it seemed to have a rebound effect. Later in the day (this is day 2 and 3), my energy levels were down, and I grew ill-tempered and impatient.
Though grateful I may have gotten an early glimpse at ecstatic bliss, I figure I was going too far too fast, and backed down to what I was doing before. (I think Thursday was the last day I tried mixing methods.)
quote:
Originally posted by Omsat
Hi Late Bloomer,
One more welcome!
Thanks for the further welcomes, Omsat, sunyata, and Christi. Also thank you to Bhodi Tree and everyone for the further advice.
quote:
AYP does not encourage pursuing siddhis. They might occur in some forms and that would be fine, but chasing them is seen as a distraction.
Cool. One of the things that attracted me to AYP was the early post on bhakti actually. Currently I'm only interested in siddhis as far as they would stand as "proof" to myself that I'm not just idly imagining my whole spiritual journey.  I'm certainly curious, but don't need to chase after them at all. :)
quote:
Yes, both Yogani and Sadhguru have a pro-life perspective. The practices are for expanding our scope and experience of life.
The "I am not..." mantra is indeed to instill a change in limited consciousness.
It being about a disconnection from the body only, is an interpretation. It may have this kind of effect on some practitioners (especially those that tend to think a lot without a deeper sense of experience about what they are thinking about). If the effect is one of bringing stillness and expanded consciousness, there would be no reason to worry about using it.
There will be many perspectives on the effectiveness of the practice, depending on who you speak to. What matters is how it works for you.
So far I suspect it's just having a steady calming effect in my day-to-day life but I will be investigating further with those later lessons just to be sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
There is a form of self-inquiry called neti neti ("not this, not that"), which is a kind of pulling back into the center of silence. Since the body is like a vehicle we're driving, but the not the driver itself, per se, it's useful to stay centered in silence for optimal driving. But here's the thing. The silence touches the vehicle and the hands that are driving, so in some sense, the vehicle and the driver are One, yes?
I think I am too early on to fully understand, but if I understand correctly, you're saying that contrary to the way most people talk about how their car is who they are (i.e. "He cut me off") while not actually being the car, our bodies truly are infused with consciousness/silence/self/grace/what-have-you as long as we're adequately receptive to it? Sorry if I'm babbling nonsense. XD |
Edited by - Late Bloomer on Dec 18 2016 3:45:53 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2016 : 02:09:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Late Bloomer
...but if I understand correctly, you're saying that contrary to the way most people talk about how their car is who they are (i.e. "He cut me off") while not actually being the car, our bodies truly are infused with consciousness/silence/self/grace/what-have-you as long as we're adequately receptive to it?
Bingo. You nailed it.
Welcome to the leading edge.
Breathe deep, relax, and enjoy. |
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Greetings And A Question
