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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 30 2006 : 04:56:00 AM
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Okay, so, we all know that snipping the frenum underneath the tongue is no big deal, right?
(This statement may well be amusing to those who slogged through the great Kirtanman Whine-a-thon which effectively marked my entrance in to the Forum, a few months back ....)
Okay, so - I started snipping this past week.
Hurts just a little -- but not enough to be any kind of detraction.
My two questions are:
1. Location
The point with the greatest stress has seemed to range from immediately under the tongue, to down near the base of the frenum - so I've done little (VERY little) snips in several places (not trying to accelerate the process --- I know it doesn't work like that, anyway - but mostly trying to be sure I have a real start).
I'm getting that down by the base is more likely the better spot - does this sound right?
(And no, I haven't re-reviewed all the lessons and Forum threads - probably should --- in the meantime .... "just askin'"!)
2. Depth of Cut
Per my paranoia surrounding lopping off my tongue ...... my snips have been pretty small.
I usually get a decent "bite" kind of feel (a sorta sharp pain - but not even close to intolerable - and only for a second or two) - which results in a _very_ tiny visible snip (almost non-visible) - and usually a _really_ small amount of blood -- a tiny dot, that usually stops almost immediately.
My concern is:
Does it sound like the snips are _too_ small?
They seem to fall on one side or the other -- making me wonder whether there's enough of a physical cut all the way through / across, to create the lengthening dynamic.
Right now, I have an almost invisible little dot-cut right on the center of the frenum, near the base --- but even this seems almost too small to do any good.
And I *think* I may be getting a (tiny) bit more length, but hard to tell.
I want to go for something bigger / deeper (can you believe *I'm* writing this! ) - but the pain (mostly) holds me back -- kind of like Alvin wrote in another thread, very recently.
Obviously, that's a kind of self-regulating gauge -- my question is: how do we know when to snip on through -- and/or if the snips are big / deep enough?
Thanks & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - It seems like I have _plenty_ of length to get behind the soft palate -- and I've been trying to go all the way back to either side, as the Lesson suggestions advise - and I can even get my finger up into the right area without gagging (not far, or really "into" - but I can pinpoint the exact location) -- any thoughts as to what I need to do to make it happen?
Maybe it *is* just a bit more length -- but it doesn't seem that way - it's almost like: I can basically double my tongue back on itself, but I can't get enough "push" to lift up the flap, or if I do - the tongue slides forward.
Any and all comments welcome!
PPS - "Captain, the Bhaktimeter - she's gonna blow!" - Scottianadna to Sri Captainkirkananda, from the famous Vedic TV series Duryatra ....
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2006 : 09:04:19 AM
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Finger help.
You can do it with finger help, period. Of course, there is always the possibility that physically you lack the capacity to do so, but that would be the most odd occurance. I'm just covering my basis here, so my opinion is that you can do it if you use the finger to extend the tongue back and extra inche or so.
I would bet that if you use finger help from now on, and play around with finger help, allowing the tongue to explore those regions of the mouth (on and immediately behind the uvula), you will enter into the nasal passage within a week.
The tongue needs to 'survey' the uvula. Just like it does when there is a cut in the mouth. The tongue goes to it, feels it, obssesses over it, trying to feed the brain information on what to do.
If you can use finger help to get the tip of the tongue "past" the uvula, then you can enter the nasal passage, because the uvula is the door to the passage. Think of the uvula like a string that you pull down to get into the attack. The uvual IS the door flap. And the entrance is gained by going behind the uvula, as there is no slit to enter in the front.
If you could grab onto the uvula and pull on it really hard, immediately under/behind, a hole would open up. That is the passage. But you don't need to pull on the uvula, just get the tip of your tongue behind it, and then wiggle the tip into the little slip. Just let the tongue discover this, as it is very natural. Use finger help.
Keep us informed. |
Edited by - Kyman on Oct 30 2006 09:07:00 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2006 : 09:53:24 AM
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Hi Kirtanman:
See lesson 108 for the original snipping procedure. What you are doing now is consistent with that, more or less. Check "kechari" in the topic index for clarifying lessons, and here in the forums for many additional perspectives -- search on "kechari," "khechari," "snip," "talavya," "talabya," etc.
Hint: It takes less stretch to be in kechari stage 2 than to get into it. Meaning, once you can get the tip of the tongue past the edge of the soft palate, it is a forward movment of the tongue (to less stretch) to bring the soft palate down like a trap door.
See sketches here for the trap door mechanics. See how the soft palate swings down and forward? That is toward less stretch for the tongue.
Perhaps we focus too much on the snipping, and not enough on the actual getting into stage 2, which is not nearly the stretch that most believe, once the edge of the soft palate has been passed. From there it is a move forward to less stretch. I dare say that most could be in kechari stage 2 now with the stretch they have. Getting behind the edge of the soft palate is greatly aided with finger help. From there it is a cake walk forward (with less stretch) to the septum. The soft palate is a paper tiger, folks. Look at the picture.
Beam us up to inner space, Scottyananda! 
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2006 : 10:55:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Okay, so - I started snipping this past week.
Congratulations...
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
1. Location
The point with the greatest stress has seemed to range from immediately under the tongue, to down near the base of the frenum - so I've done little (VERY little) snips in several places (not trying to accelerate the process --- I know it doesn't work like that, anyway - but mostly trying to be sure I have a real start).
I'm getting that down by the base is more likely the better spot - does this sound right?
(And no, I haven't re-reviewed all the lessons and Forum threads - probably should --- in the meantime .... "just askin'"!)
Well.. I think staying the the middle is safer than close to the base.. we try and snip at the same place every time.. and if you are close to the base.. you may run out of place to snip.. and may have to change your spot. When you stay at one spot.. you will see when the wound heals you will get an area of dead skin like a callus.. and when you snip there again.. I find.. the pain is less and I can cut a bit deeper without trouble. So.. snipping a bunch of places at the same time may not really help. And... yes.. re reading the threads and lessons will help... 
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
2. Depth of Cut
Per my paranoia surrounding lopping off my tongue ...... my snips have been pretty small.
I usually get a decent "bite" kind of feel (a sorta sharp pain - but not even close to intolerable - and only for a second or two) - which results in a _very_ tiny visible snip (almost non-visible) - and usually a _really_ small amount of blood -- a tiny dot, that usually stops almost immediately.
My concern is:
Does it sound like the snips are _too_ small?
They seem to fall on one side or the other -- making me wonder whether there's enough of a physical cut all the way through / across, to create the lengthening dynamic.
Right now, I have an almost invisible little dot-cut right on the center of the frenum, near the base --- but even this seems almost too small to do any good.
And I *think* I may be getting a (tiny) bit more length, but hard to tell.
I want to go for something bigger / deeper (can you believe *I'm* writing this! ) - but the pain (mostly) holds me back -- kind of like Alvin wrote in another thread, very recently.
Obviously, that's a kind of self-regulating gauge -- my question is: how do we know when to snip on through -- and/or if the snips are big / deep enough?
I think you are doing fine. You dont have to make huge snips.. little ones do the job too.. or see if this helps.. tooled talavya kriya
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
PS - It seems like I have _plenty_ of length to get behind the soft palate -- and I've been trying to go all the way back to either side, as the Lesson suggestions advise - and I can even get my finger up into the right area without gagging (not far, or really "into" - but I can pinpoint the exact location) -- any thoughts as to what I need to do to make it happen?
Maybe it *is* just a bit more length -- but it doesn't seem that way - it's almost like: I can basically double my tongue back on itself, but I can't get enough "push" to lift up the flap, or if I do - the tongue slides forward.
Any and all comments welcome!
Like Kymn said, use your fingers to push. In this thread couple of Yogani's posts helped a lot of us get into kechari..
quote:
Yogani said "The journey from stage 1 to stage 2 kechari (going behind the soft palate) is actually a thrust forward with the tongue as soon as it clears the back edge. Not up, but forward. The easiest place to do that from (shortest distance to get behind) is on the left or right side of the edge of the soft palate. The tongue can roll right in from either side, while going up the middle takes more length.
Also, keep in mind that the soft palate is not a rigid boundary. As soon as we are behind it, it folds down and forward like a natural trap door."
quote:
Just to clarify: The tongue doesn't actually "roll" into stage 2 from the side. It goes in on the side and slides to the center behind the soft palate. A push forward can help once the tip of the tongue has made it behind the edge of the soft palate -- that opens the soft palate trap door (it is usually automatic, but pushing forward with the tongue helps it along). No unusual contortions involved beyond just getting there, which you almost have!
Don't forget, finger help is perfectly legal, especially in the beginning.
The guru is in you.
Kirtanaman.. just keep at it.. and one day you will slip right into it...
Yogani, I think you are right.. Perhaps we do focus too much on the snipping, and not enough on the actual getting into stage 2...
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2006 : 11:01:17 AM
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Yogani wrote: quote:
Hint: It takes less stretch to be in kechari stage 2 than to get into it. Meaning, once you can get the tip of the tongue past the edge of the soft palate, it is a forward movment of the tongue (to less stretch) to bring the soft palate down like a trap door.
...
Perhaps we focus too much on the snipping, and not enough on the actual getting into stage 2, which is not nearly the stretch that most believe, once the edge of the soft palate has been passed. From there it is a move forward to less stretch. I dare say that most could be in kechari stage 2 now with the stretch they have.
This is my experience exactly. I have never snipped (although I am going to start soon) and I can get into stage 2 with ease. Give me one second and bam, it's there. I don't have a long tongue either. It's all about pushing forward once the tongue is in the passage.
A lot of it has to do with your level of relaxation in the tissues of your face. For a while, before I hit stage 2, I was pushing forward in the passageway and wasn't making much progress. It was probably due to my soft palate being too tense. That lasted a couple of weeks. Then I reached the bridge tissue when I was least expecting it. I think your body just has to get used to doing this twice a day, and then it opens up to it...kind of like how you eventually get limber if you do asanas everyday. Being so desirous of attaining stage 2 can make you tense, which will actually keep your from reaching it...at least for a little while. So relax. But also keep reaching forward with the tip of the tongue.
Hopefully this helps, in addition to the help already given. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2006 : 11:38:55 AM
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Major Thanks to all of you!
Very helpful!!
: )
Quick Follow-On Question - mostly to Kyman (per your post), and somewhat to Yogani (pwe your post) -- can you please specifically describe what to do with the finger(s), and how to do it, to make best use of "finger help"?
My experience is:
*Running a finger back to the spot (right-rear or left-rear of upper mouth cavity area - far back, and then far "corner" to either the left or right) - helps me to understand and feel exactly what it's like - which is helpful to understand (I think) what I need to do with my tongue.
When I try to help my tongue with my finger, the following happens:
*The tongue kind of folds over on itself, in a very tight curl (from any angle - including the turned to the side dynamic that the lessons describe).
*Unfolding it doesn't allow for enough force to push up the "trap door".
*If it does unfold enough, it's too far forward once again.
*Same deal if I try to get under / behind the uvula.
*Same deal if I work in a second finger to try to push the _base_ of the tongue back (to get height from a ladder against a wall, it's inherently helpful to move the base of the ladder close to the wall -- though I don't know how much movement actually occurs, here).
: )
My guess, as much as I'm not thrilled about admitting it is:
It seems to be a "tethering" issue - it seems like I have a very well-stretched tongue, that is *rather* tightly tethered by the frenum (are there any ways you know of to further gauge this?).
Thanks again - more on this soon, I'm sure!
: )
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2006 : 11:56:47 AM
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Hi Kirtanman:
By "finger help," I mean pushing the tongue back in the mouth from underneath (your ladder analogy), from whatever point under the tongue that is most effective to reach past the edge of the soft palate with the tip of the tongue. Once that happens, it is a forward movement into stage 2.
The edge of the soft palate may feel stretchy (like a rubber band) as it comes down the first time. That also takes some getting used to -- it stretches out and becomes natural in good time.
Yes, it will sometimes boil down to the limiting tether underneath the tongue, and that is why we focus on the frenum with multiple strategies. But, as Scott and others have pointed out, it is not only about that.
Of course, some are born with less frenum/tether than others. Whatever the anatomy is, there will be several factors involved. It is not only about snipping. It is about all of the factors combined. So we don't want to get too carried away with any one aspect. The two most important factors are bhakti and patience over time (not forcing anything to the point of injury).
With bhakti and patience we will surely move from stage 1 to stage 2 sooner or later. Of course, these two qualities are naturally cultivated in daily deep meditation and spinal breathing pranayama, so there is a logical order in all of this. Kechari is an inner development much more than an outer one.
The guru is in you.
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