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reality11
USA
48 Posts |
 Posted - May 31 2015 : 1:42:58 PM
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I just realized I've been following the SBP instructions wrong. I always ignored the part that said to breath deeply and draw out the outbreath. I've always had problems breathing deeply, and I figured it wasn't important to do so during SBP as long as I'm visualizing.
Well, I recently started researching on pranayama on google, and discovered that deep breathing and breath retention is actually very important! I did some practices by counting my breath, 4 on inhale, 8 on exhale, and found it quite soothing, actually!
However, it takes quite a bit of mental concentration and effort to breath in a way that I find very irregular. During SBP, when I control my breath in this manner, all my mental faculties are focused on the breath, and I can no longer visualize as well as I did before(and even before, my visualization was never great).
At this point, of course all I can do is to try my best and hope that as time passes, I will become more proficient. Still, I wanted to ask for your opinions on what SBP is all about, just for the sake of discussion.
Which do you think is more important for purification and circulating prana: the visualization aspect, or the breath control and breath retention aspect?
In many other practices, breath control alone is called pranayama, so personally, I am leaning more towards breath retention being more important, and the visualization is just an extra aid. Do you think I am correct? |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2015 : 2:18:18 PM
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Hi Reality11
The really important bit about SBP is the connection we are establishing between the root and the third eye - that is the foundation of the whole ecstatic conductivity side of yoga. It also establishes Ajna as the command centre for this whole process. The visualisation is the tool we are using to establish that root to brow connection. So yes, it is very important.
I would keep practising it even if it feels clunky - that is normal in the beginning. If you have difficulties, just being with your attention at the root when you start to breathe in and at the brow when you start to breathe out will do the job for now. The rest will come in time, be easy about it an keep practising.
Breath retention is quite advanced. The time will come to add that in if you follow the AYP lessons. I would not jump to breath retention before mastering the basic SPB as described in Lesson 41.
Breathing deeply is something you build up gradually too (important to stay within your comfort limit). If the visualisation takes a lot of your attention, I would not worry too much about it at this point. One thing you can do is to practise the visualisation and the complete yogic breath separately. For instance, if you allocate 10 minutes to your SBP, use 5 to practice the visualisation and 5 to practice the complete yogic breath. That would be one way of doing it. The other way is to practice one skill till you master it, and when the first bit has became automatic, add in the second bit.
Sounds like you're doing well, working through the practices and making progress. Enjoy! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on May 31 2015 2:32:14 PM |
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2015 : 2:40:44 PM
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I agree with BlueRaincoat reality11 that visualization between root and mid-brow third eye is way more important than breath retention.
Early use of kumbhaka can lead to disaster.
Just like in deep meditation Yogani stresses easily favoring the visualization process. Over the years many people here on the forum have said they've made great progress just favoring the general area of the spine from root to third eye. That's been my experience too.
Then when you add Yoni mudra kumbhaka you can carefully gauge how the breath retention merges into your practice and life.
I've done different pranayama for over 30 years and Yogani's approach is the best for me by far. I still like playing around with yoni mudra though and will sometimes cheat and do a few outside of my sits just cuz its fun.
Plenty of room to experiment reality11 but kumbahaka too early leads to big crashes.
Take care!
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Edited by - BillinL.A. on May 31 2015 4:04:51 PM |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2015 : 3:42:03 PM
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for me visualization is important as i feel prana is drawn by the breath buts also by the intention of the movement of breath over time the two coincide my practice is still very young but i have found bringing the two together in subtle gentle way there is a complement and this takes me inward very quickly . |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2015 : 9:07:51 PM
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Hi reality11,
in time all elements are important. The most important factor is to breath slowy though. Lahiri Mahasaya's classification between a beginners breath, a medi-orce breath, a good and an excellent kriya breath, which is spinal breathing, was only determined by its length. The ideal length is given as 22 seconds up, 22 seconds down. Excellent has been called if the breath is 30s per direction.
The reason is, the mental activity is directly linked to the speed of the breath. The longer and slower the breath, the slower the mental process, the faster the doors to sushumna open and the easier the life energies can enter it. The slower the breath, the more time you have to correct the flow of the prana back into the sushumna nadi too and to trace its path through its center in all inches of its length.
With precise visualization, the life energies can penetrate the sushumna nadi even better. Additional methods can be applied to increase this effect even further, see Yogani's notes.
But there is no need to force the system to do breaths which make it uncomfortable. You will find the optimal pace and the visualization will get better over time again :) Not to forget, the slower the breath, the less mental juice you have for visualization, so it is a normal reaction. The moment you can visualize within slow breath, you are not far from perfect kriya breaths with immense efficiency.
I remember the samadhi boy, a good friend of ours, to demonstrate a perfect kriya breath (= spinal breath). He mostly overdid a little, but it was so slow, more like 35-40 seconds each direction, that even while breathing his aura changed and became visible, the room started to warp and the enlightened halo around his head started to appear. After the completion of that one single sueprprecise breath, his eyes were shining like bright stars, he was totally blissed out and could barely speak. You cannot hold this level of SBP for more than some breaths, but to give you some insight regarding shorter and longer breaths.
To my experience it is better to breath more slowly than to hold the breath. In very advanced stages holding the breath may be okay, but is mostly not needed.
Happy practice friend,
sounds all nice! :) |
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reality11
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2015 : 9:43:40 PM
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The thing about visualization is... I don't feel like I'm improving at it too much. I've never been good at visualizing, and I've been practicing ayp for long enough and still not feeling like I'm making noticable progress in better visualization. The image in my head is very shaky, unclear, and hard to hold on to.
And all that was before I tried regulating my breath.
Perhaps I am just mentally weak in the concentration department when it comes to picturing mental images. When I do SBP, I do get results occasionally, but I think those results come from concentrating on sensations, and from my intent to move prana through my spine.
Given that I am so lacking when it comes to visualization, would it make sense to forget about trying to visualize and just focus on breathing as deeply as possible while maintaining an intent on moving my attention up and down the spine?
Holy: I am delving into western esoteric occult material, and the way they practice pranayama, as taught by Aleister Crowley, is to meticulously time each of their inbreath and outbreath, so that they can record everything and slowly work their way up. I think that is a helpful approach. I am practicing 4 in-breath, 8 out-breath for an hour a day, and I am hoping to move my way up. They speak of many interesting experiences once the breath is very slowed, and I am excited to reach that point too. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2015 : 06:32:08 AM
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What do you mean by "practising AYP for long enough"? Is it even a year? In yoga, progress is measured in years and decades, not months.
quote:
Originally posted by reality11
The image in my head is very shaky, unclear, and hard to hold on to.
It's not so much about "the image in your head" as about feeling that part of your body. You can't have yoga - whatever school you want to pick - without developing self-awareness, including awareness of your body. And no, there are no shortcuts. You have to put in the time to practise. If you skip this part, then there will be an important building block missing from the foundation. |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2015 : 07:57:36 AM
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quote:
Given that I am so lacking when it comes to visualization
Maybe redefine 'visualization'. It isn't just pictures, you should know. For me it is a touch point for my attention while open to what is, there. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2015 : 10:35:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by reality11
even before, my visualization was never great).
Which do you think is more important for purification and circulating prana: the visualization aspect, or the breath control and breath retention aspect?
In many other practices, breath control alone is called pranayama, so personally, I am leaning more towards breath retention being more important, and the visualization is just an extra aid. Do you think I am correct?
Hi reality11,
Important is that you take time to develop a steady practice, focus on the breath and at the same time, feel the breath up and down the spine. Not everybody "sees" the spine. It is not important.
Developing meditation takes time, the only way of learning is to sit and be still......
"meditation is like a little seed, cultivate it with love and it will grow and flower"  |
Edited by - Charliedog on Jun 01 2015 11:30:52 AM |
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2015 : 11:44:32 AM
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Killer stuff Holy!!! |
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2015 : 11:45:56 AM
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| I like the seed analogy Charliedog...keeps the ego drama out of it. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2015 : 04:02:14 AM
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| laying by a warm ocean right next to the wave line as the tide rolls in it covers the body slowly from toe to head then recedes slowly from head to toe back and forth it goes a warming, glowingly, slowly ,lovingly, until you feel you are the ocean and the ocean is you . |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2015 : 05:37:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
laying by a warm ocean right next to the wave line as the tide rolls in it covers the body slowly from toe to head then recedes slowly from head to toe back and forth it goes a warming, glowingly, slowly ,lovingly, until you feel you are the ocean and the ocean is you.
Oh wow! How is that for a description of Spinal Breathing Pranayama |
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reality11
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2015 : 2:45:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
What do you mean by "practising AYP for long enough"? Is it even a year? In yoga, progress is measured in years and decades, not months.
quote:
Originally posted by reality11
The image in my head is very shaky, unclear, and hard to hold on to.
It's not so much about "the image in your head" as about feeling that part of your body. You can't have yoga - whatever school you want to pick - without developing self-awareness, including awareness of your body. And no, there are no shortcuts. You have to put in the time to practise. If you skip this part, then there will be an important building block missing from the foundation.
Thank you BlueRaincoat. I suppose that should put things into perspective if the scale of progress is in terms of decades..
Well, I am just going to abandon my attempt at trying to maintain a picture in my head and focus purely on moving my awareness up and down my spine. Does that awareness count as visualization?
Also.... reading up on pranayama is scaring me a bit, along with experiencing some chest pains. I definitely make it a goal not to strain, but sometimes I strain unconsciously, just very slightly. I definitely notice an increase in effects during SBP when I lengthen my breathing, but once in a while I find myself straining due to my desire for faster results. Can't help it.. but I try not to..
Anyway, the last session my throat was tensing for some reason midway through SBP ... I immediately stopped any effort to control my breath and went back to just observing it. Then during DM, I could either feel my chest spasm in my heart area, or I could actually feel a strong sensation of my heart beating... I can't tell which it is. But it scared me a bit so I stopped the session prematurely.
I am excited that I am seeing physiological reactions to my practices, but I am reading many fear-mongering accounts of the dangers of pranayama. Am I right to be scared, or is my fear unfound and I should take these physical reactions as just part of the purification process?
Either way, of course I will try not to strain at all. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2015 : 8:23:12 PM
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@BillinL.A.,
After his single precise breath, he said, that he is seeing white light everywhere and asked if we really want to continue with the class (or if he is allowed to go into samadhi) :P But then he continued, even though I'd like him to enter samadhi again and again :P Our samadhi boy has demonstrated the one single kriya breath several times over the years. Everytime he explained other details of what is happening. But this is very high level and he has practiced it in the ranges of 500-1k pranayamas per day over 2-3 years until this kind of mastery arose.
@reality11
it takes time to become better at this practice. But you profit from it with every breath. Slow but managable breathing with the attention and intention to trace the spinal nerve is very good spinal breathing. Visualization is important to go into the nadis within the sushumna nadi (vajra(chitrini(brahma nadi),one within the other), but the first step is to breath within the sushumna nadi and for this attention alone with slow breath is more than enough. Your nostrils will give you the hint if the breath has entered the sushumna nadi or not. When both open up and keep open while the breath has reached good concentration in the continuity of tracing the nerve inch by inch, know this to be a victorious breath :D Perhaps you will manage such a breath only with your last one in that session after many months, but the amounts will increase.
All fine friend,
just happy practice :) |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2015 : 05:50:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by reality11
Well, I am just going to abandon my attempt at trying to maintain a picture in my head and focus purely on moving my awareness up and down my spine. Does that awareness count as visualization?
Yes.
It starts as 'visualisation' for most people because sight is the dominant sense for most of us (though not for all of us). What it develops into is an internal 'seeing' that is best described as awareness.
quote:
Originally posted by reality11
Also.... reading up on pranayama is scaring me a bit, along with experiencing some chest pains. I definitely make it a goal not to strain, but sometimes I strain unconsciously, just very slightly.
The chest pain is due to straining/existing tension. SPB in itself does not cause chest pain.
quote:
Originally posted by reality11
Anyway, the last session my throat was tensing for some reason midway through SBP ... I immediately stopped any effort to control my breath and went back to just observing it.
Yes, that is good. Keep witnessing those disturbances. That is the way to lessen them and eventually disolve them. 'Trying not to' or opposing them in any way is not so good, as that causes further resistance/tension. Accept they are there, bear with them, be patient, but don't identify with them. Let the Witness watch them impartially.
quote:
Originally posted by reality11
I am excited that I am seeing physiological reactions to my practices, but I am reading many fear-mongering accounts of the dangers of pranayama. Am I right to be scared, or is my fear unfound and I should take these physical reactions as just part of the purification process?
What you are reading about is very advanced pranayama undertaken too early, specifically breath retention (Kumbhaka) and Bastrika. Those can cause sudden unexpected effects even when practiced for a short time. Gently moving your awareness up and down the spine while breathing in a relaxed way is a safe practice. Having said that, you must not forget it is a practice for energy stimulation. What you are saying about fear and tension in the throat tells me you should seriously prioritise meditation. People jump into energy cultivation very quickly these days. Yogani wrote somewhere that he did 10 years of meditation before he started any energy cultivation practices. What you must understand is that the energy you are amplifying (kundalini) will feed whatever is there. If there is a lot of fear or other negative emotions, those will be amplified. That is why having a good amount of inner silence is paramount, because then you will be able to put a distance between you and those emotions - they will not be running away with you, as the witness will be able to watch them impartially. So focus on meditation. You will know when you are ready for energy cultivation. When you notice your have the ability not to identify with your emotions and just watch them as an impartial witness, then you will be safe to awaken your kundalini.
Practice wisely and enjoy |
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reality11
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2015 : 11:18:20 PM
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Did some 7 in-breath 14 out-breath this morning along with my ayp session of 10min SBP and 13min DM(scheduled for 20min, but I cut it short..), then ended up with a migraine about 9 hours later.. not sure if it's related, I get migraines sometimes. I don't think 7 in-breath 14 out-breath is pushing it that much, right? Certainly not enough to really stimulate energy that much...
I was afraid because I posted on another forum and an experienced yogi there was raving at me that I am putting myself in immense spiritual danger by practicing pranayama without cultivating the first two limbs of yoga. He said I was skipping ahead too much. After more thought, I will just chalk that up to fear-mongering and old-fashioned mentality. I am no longer afraid. He said I might even die, but I'm not even afraid of that anymore. If I die, then I died pursuing something noble.
BlueRaincoat, I hope that while kundalini may amplify my negative emotions, it will also amplify my positive emotions. I will gladly take the negatives if I can get the positives. I know the negative physical symptoms might get quite bad from what I've read, but I hope this is all a process of purification and I would not suffer for nothing.
This headache hurts.. and it would suck if it gets worse. I don't mind mental discomfort but I hate physical discomfort. But... it'll all be worth it, I hope. I hope I get some breakthrough soon.
edit: Headache is now gone, everything is cool now :) |
Edited by - reality11 on Jun 04 2015 01:26:24 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2015 : 01:18:17 AM
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Better to glide through than to break through. Just kind of ease into the transformation, you know. Finesse is the key. Don't worry, there can still be plenty of exhilaration with the style of easily favoring. 
It's good to have strong bhakti (desire), and it's also good to have strong wisdom, to temper the bhakti. Fire, water, earth, air...akasha...all the elements balanced, aligned, integrated. Best wishes on your path. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2015 : 02:01:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by reality11
Did some 7 in-breath 14 out-breath this morning along with my ayp session of 10min SBP and 13min DM(scheduled for 20min, but I cut it short..), then ended up with a migraine about 9 hours later.. not sure if it's related, I get migraines sometimes. I don't think 7 in-breath 14 out-breath is pushing it that much, right? Certainly not enough to really stimulate energy that much...
I was afraid because I posted on another forum and an experienced yogi there was raving at me that I am putting myself in immense spiritual danger by practicing pranayama without cultivating the first two limbs of yoga. He said I was skipping ahead too much. After more thought, I will just chalk that up to fear-mongering and old-fashioned mentality. I am no longer afraid. He said I might even die, but I'm not even afraid of that anymore. If I die, then I died pursuing something noble.
BlueRaincoat, I hope that while kundalini may amplify my negative emotions, it will also amplify my positive emotions. I will gladly take the negatives if I can get the positives. I know the negative physical symptoms might get quite bad from what I've read, but I hope this is all a process of purification and I would not suffer for nothing.
This headache hurts.. and it would suck if it gets worse. I don't mind mental discomfort but I hate physical discomfort. But... it'll all be worth it, I hope. I hope I get some breakthrough soon.
edit: Headache is now gone, everything is cool now :)
Take a simple practice, take it easy, as simple as possible for at least six weeks. After six weeks using exactly the same tools you know what it does for you. Don't worry. The more advices the more confusion in you. Practice has to be your own experience. After six weeks you can ask yourself in silence what is good for ME at this moment. The answer is in silence in you. ENJOY.
Edit; Yama's and Niyama's (first two limbs) are also part of the cultivation of inner silence, but you know that already.
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Edited by - Charliedog on Jun 04 2015 04:29:49 AM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2015 : 05:54:12 AM
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Yoga is like growing up. Did you have any break throughs when you were growing up Reality11?
You just look back and realise that today you are quite different than a year ago. All you have to do is stick to your daily practice and aim for balance in daily life. |
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reality11
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2015 : 12:28:42 AM
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Ok.. I don't know, maybe I do need to slow down. Developed a migraine again at the middle of the day that is still persisting now(7 hours later) ... not sure if it's related to my practices, but I didn't even do anything today. Did a couple of 10 second inhale 20 second exhale yesterday for 10 minutes or so.
I wish I knew for sure if these headaches are a result of yoga or if it's unrelated.
Sorry if I'm being hard headed. I am just so curious. I really hope this headache is due to my practices, then I will have verified so much :). Perhaps pain is a great teacher to be embraced. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2015 : 04:20:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by reality11
I just realized I've been following the SBP instructions wrong. I always ignored the part that said to breath deeply and draw out the outbreath. I've always had problems breathing deeply, and I figured it wasn't important to do so during SBP as long as I'm visualizing.
Well, I recently started researching on pranayama on google, and discovered that deep breathing and breath retention is actually very important! I did some practices by counting my breath, 4 on inhale, 8 on exhale, and found it quite soothing, actually!
However, it takes quite a bit of mental concentration and effort to breath in a way that I find very irregular. During SBP, when I control my breath in this manner, all my mental faculties are focused on the breath, and I can no longer visualize as well as I did before(and even before, my visualization was never great).
At this point, of course all I can do is to try my best and hope that as time passes, I will become more proficient. Still, I wanted to ask for your opinions on what SBP is all about, just for the sake of discussion.
Which do you think is more important for purification and circulating prana: the visualization aspect, or the breath control and breath retention aspect?
In many other practices, breath control alone is called pranayama, so personally, I am leaning more towards breath retention being more important, and the visualization is just an extra aid. Do you think I am correct?
Hi reality11, I read all your posts in this thread, IMO you are making things to complicated.
In some yoga approaches, pranayama is indeed a very sofisticated science, but students begin at easy levels and reach the higher levels only later. For example, according to the Iyengar book on pranayama you learn pranayama lying on the floor and simply breathing - no counting, no deep breathing, nothing but just breathing and witnessing your abdomen and chest going up and down. And this for weeks!
And, in genereal, I would be very careful when readings advice from random people on the web - you just don't know who's behind a nickname. So we have to use a lot of common sense when we read things on the web.
Back to SBP: The instructions in the AYP lessons clearly state to keep it simple and be patient. My experience of SBP (after some 18 months of AYP) is that the lessons are true: SBP and particulary visualization was not an easy practice for me, and it took a year to become comfortable at it, but now things are smooth and I don't struggle anymore. By the way, I never had strong visualizations of the spinal nerve during SBP, but this stopped to be a problem for my progress in SBP as soon as I stopped worrying about my poor visualization skills - and thats exactly what the lessons state.
So, again, keep it simple, be patient and trust the process!
Wish you alle the best.  |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2015 : 04:33:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by reality11
I was afraid because I posted on another forum and an experienced yogi there was raving at me that I am putting myself in immense spiritual danger by practicing pranayama without cultivating the first two limbs of yoga. He said I was skipping ahead too much. After more thought, I will just chalk that up to fear-mongering and old-fashioned mentality. I am no longer afraid. He said I might even die, but I'm not even afraid of that anymore. If I die, then I died pursuing something noble.
See, that guy was not necessary wrong: If he understood that you were practicing advanced pranayama with a lot of breath retention and powerful enhancements, his advice is good. Maybe his answer was a little dogmatic and, yes even old fashioned, but basically he was telling you to be careful and not try advanced stuff without a good foundation.
Exactly the same advice you are getting from this community, right?
By the way, before AYP I did big mistakes with pranayama as a beginner, pushing very hard and doing a lot of breath retention. Very, very bad idea: one night I woke up in a hospital bed. I was lucky to have an overall good Fitness, but what if my heart was weak or if I had any kind of unknown condition? Now I really think that bad pranayama practice can kill. |
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Toto
Norway
20 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2015 : 07:58:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
laying by a warm ocean right next to the wave line as the tide rolls in it covers the body slowly from toe to head then recedes slowly from head to toe back and forth it goes a warming, glowingly, slowly ,lovingly, until you feel you are the ocean and the ocean is you .
I guess enjoying every moment is the fastest way. Make it more comfortable make it easier to become that . |
Edited by - Toto on Jun 06 2015 08:06:18 AM |
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Prioritize visualizing vs deep breathing?
