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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 10 2014 : 04:52:05 AM
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Hello,
I have a question regarding a current issue. I have been practicing Spinal breathing pranayama, 5 to 10 mins, followed by breath awareness meditation, 10 to 20 mins, (please note, that due to my sensitivity I have switched the I AM mantra meditation for breath awareness meditation as suggested by Yogani) for several weeks now. The spinal breathing method feels like drawing me into my core (Sushumna?) and, when I proceed with breath awareness where I intend to let go of this, my whole subtle body is breathing. It feels like the energy system of my body is doing the breathing, which feels great, my mind becomes clear and spacious, but I am not sure, if that is what Deep Meditation (and aiming for abiding stillness) is supposed to be. Would it be better to have a little break inbetween those two practices? Or is it okay to continue doing the breath awareness meditation like this?
As always, I'm greatfully looking forward to any advice!
Horst |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2014 : 09:02:45 AM
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Sounds like Spinal Breathing is working for you. 
Regarding:
quote:
when I proceed with breath awareness where I intend to let go of this, my whole subtle body is breathing. It feels like the energy system of my body is doing the breathing, which feels great, my mind becomes clear and spacious, but I am not sure, if that is what Deep Meditation (and aiming for abiding stillness) is supposed to be.
Well, this is not Deep Meditation. The idea of deep meditation is to keep coming back to the mantra any time you realize you are off it.. the process of losing the mantra and coming back to it we touch the gap, the inner silence. Abiding in stillness then happens during the day.
So going along the lines of Deep Meditation, I would say, during your practice, any time you realize / become aware of being lost in the spaciousness, bring your awareness back to your breath... maybe you will stay with this awareness for a breath or two and get lost in the spaciousness.. and that is fine... but any time you become aware of being lost in the spaciousness (the mind has come into the picture), take you attention back to your breath.
Hope this helps.
Wish you all the best! |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2014 : 09:09:50 AM
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PS:
quote:
Spinal breathing pranayama, 5 to 10 mins, followed by breath awareness meditation, 10 to 20 mins,
Also, don't make it a variable practice... try to pick a time and stay with it and then increase or decrease it as needed over time. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2014 : 1:09:29 PM
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Hello Horst
Your post reminds me of something I experienced in the past, when I briefly tried the SOHAM mantra (before starting AYP). For some unknown reason, that practice draw me in so deeply - I had this feeling that my outbreadth expanded well beyond my physical body and the inbreadth took me deep into my core. It was extremely powerful - 3 of those breadths and I would break into a sweat, then I’d feel exhilarated for a few hours and then I'd feel dreadful - too much purification going on very fast. When starting spinal breathing as per the AYP method, I found I was quite sensitive to that too (though it's not quite as intense an experience as SOHAM). About 6 minutes of SPB is about as much pranayama as I can do these days without overloading.
Perhaps you are very sensitive to pranayama too, so a small amount if it goes a long way? Have you tried to shorten the pranayama sessions instead of swapping the I AM mantra for the breadth?
If you follow the meditation procedure i.e. easily favour the object of meditation, I don't see a problem with the feelings you describe. Especially “the energy system doing the breathing”. Yogani says the breadth can be localised in any part of the body when doing meditation on the breadth, so why not the energy system?
That's my two penny's worth.
I wish you smooth practice and steady progress   |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2014 : 01:11:04 AM
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Hi Shanti and BlueRaincoat,
Thank you for your valueable replies.
quote:
during your practice, any time you realize / become aware of being lost in the spaciousness, bring your awareness back to your breath...
Shanti, actually, I am not sure how I can describe this but it does not seem like spaciousness to me, rather it's more like being absorbed in my subtle energetic aspect of my core breathing.
Yeah, I should try and stick to a fixed time.
quote:
Yogani says the breadth can be localised in any part of the body when doing meditation on the breadth, so why not the energy system?
BlueRaincoat, yes, this is the decisive question. And I also get excessive purification symptoms when doing it this way. Just like before when I only did the Mantra Meditation, even without Spinal breathing beforehand. That's why I switched to the Breath awareness meditation.
Warm regards,
Horst
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2014 : 03:37:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Horst
Hi Shanti and BlueRaincoat,
quote:
during your practice, any time you realize / become aware of being lost in the spaciousness, bring your awareness back to your breath...
Shanti, actually, I am not sure how I can describe this but it does not seem like spaciousness to me, rather it's more like being absorbed in my subtle energetic aspect of my core breathing.
Yeah, I should try and stick to a fixed
Warm regards,
Horst
And that's fine... All I was trying to say is, anytime you realize your awareness has shifted off your breath, bring it back to your breath. And maybe you already do this and I have misunderstood your question. Apologies if so.
The rest, what you feel is perfectly fine (and sounds wonderful ) as long as you are not feeling overload later. The purification of the nervous system can bring up many beautiful (and some not so pleasant) experiences, Don't focus on (get attached to) it too much as it will change in time.
And don't forget to get plenty of rest after practice and before you get up. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2014 : 07:25:43 AM
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This is a quote from Yogani - "Replacing the Mantra with Breath as the Object of Meditation" in lesson 367
"Some may ask, what is the object we call breath? Is it the sensation of air moving in the nostrils, in the throat, in the lungs? Is it the rising and falling of the chest? As we begin breath meditation, and get into it, we may find it is one of these, or all of these. That is fine. Whatever we perceive the object of breath to be, that is what it is. It is not necessary to physically locate our awareness of the breath. It may start in one place, and move naturally. We can be comfortable with that, easily favor whatever it is..."
Your purification symptoms show that your practice is effective. They also show you are quite sensitive, so you may need less practice than the average 10 minutes SPB & 20 minutes meditation.
My kundalini started to move when I was doing 3 minutes SPB & 15 minutes meditation. If my experience is anything to go by, then I’d say you will get results by doing less, just make sure you self-pace.
One more thought you may find useful: My own gut feeling was that I'd be better off holding on to a longer meditation session and adjusting the SBP time to what felt to be balancing, but not stimulating prana too much (as that seemed to be moving of its own accord). There were times when my SPB was just a few breadths, then a couple of minutes. In time, I seemed to have developed an instinct for how much SBP is enough, which kicks in during the session and it tells me when to stop.
Good luck - hope you manage to keep your practice steady and comfortable. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2014 : 08:41:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Horst
Hello,
I have a question regarding a current issue. I have been practicing Spinal breathing pranayama, 5 to 10 mins, followed by breath awareness meditation, 10 to 20 mins, (please note, that due to my sensitivity I have switched the I AM mantra meditation for breath awareness meditation as suggested by Yogani) for several weeks now. The spinal breathing method feels like drawing me into my core (Sushumna?) and, when I proceed with breath awareness where I intend to let go of this, my whole subtle body is breathing. It feels like the energy system of my body is doing the breathing, which feels great, my mind becomes clear and spacious, but I am not sure, if that is what Deep Meditation (and aiming for abiding stillness) is supposed to be. Would it be better to have a little break inbetween those two practices? Or is it okay to continue doing the breath awareness meditation like this?
As always, I'm greatfully looking forward to any advice!
Horst
Sounds like you could be doing excessive pranayma to me.
Try cutting back the spb to 1-2 minutes a see what happens? |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2014 : 1:37:27 PM
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Thanks a lot guys. I love all your input!
Now, what I just did, was 20 mins only breath awareness without prior spb and I could clearly notice the difference to my whole body breathing. This time it seemed to be about inner silence and not about the ecstatic conductivity. I think at this stage on my journey I need to cut down on the spinal breathing part and focus more on the witnessing part. At least for the time being...
Thanks again, I'll keep you posted, if something else comes up.
Horst
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2014 : 02:28:29 AM
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I have thought about what Yogani means by quote:
Whatever we perceive the object of breath to be, that is what it is. It is not necessary to physically locate our awareness of the breath. It may start in one place, and move naturally. We can be comfortable with that, easily favor whatever it is..."
just as BlueRaincoat wrote. I think he refers to the physical body and not to the subtle energetic body. During this morning's meditation I explored it again, first I prompted that energetic whole body breath with a litte spb and tried to be aware of it. Then, as contrast, I tried to let it all go and just feel the physical sensation in the body, which was mainly my belly and nostrils and then I meditated with it. And I can conform the difference, like I wrote in my previous reply. It's that rising inner silence versus energetic conductivity. That's what it seems to me at the moment.
All the best! |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2014 : 07:36:19 AM
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| That is an interesting insight Horst. Good experiment, thank you for sharing! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Oct 12 2014 07:49:26 AM |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2014 : 01:48:51 AM
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Please note that I am going to continue this thread by writing a new post in the section: Deep Meditation & Samyama.
Thanks,
Horst |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2014 : 08:07:24 AM
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Hi again,
This is just a short update. For me it's become clear now, the similarities between Spinal Breathing Pranayama and Breath Awareness Meditation are very strong. I don't think I can practice the one without the other one, this is to say that breath awareness also engages one's subtle energies. For me, being an over-sensitive meditator, breath awareness Meditation needs to be sufficent to raise my ecstatic conductivity, as spinal breathing totally screws my inner energetic system.
Of course, the question arises, if I can do AYP practices at all. As I cannot do the Mantra Meditation, neither spinal breathing, ... what's left then? Still I am doing Asanas (among other physical exercises), breath awareness Meditation and thinking of beginning Samyama soon.
And apart from that, the AYP System provides a great frame work to apply to any spiritual work.
So, this is my humble insight.... |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2014 : 08:33:53 AM
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Hello Horst
Good to hear from you again.
It's great you've found the level of practice you are comfortable with.
Well, breadth focused meditation is an AYP method, even tough it is introduced many lessons after mantra meditation. And you are very much on the same page with Yogani, choosing meditation for your sole practice.
IMO you are still very much an AYPer and I hope we will hear from you again. I'm sensitive to practices too and I found it useful to read your insights.
Best wishes |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2014 : 10:48:38 AM
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Thanks BlueRaincoat,
Have you also switched to breath awareness Meditation?
How are you getting on with SBP?
Regards,
Horst |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2014 : 06:09:01 AM
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Breadth focused meditation is the option I fall back on when I start to feel overloaded by 10 minutes of mantra meditation.
I seem to be very sensitive to all forms of pranayama. I often count breadths instead of minutes when doing SBP.
I used to worry about not being able to put more time into my practice, but not for many months now. It is obvious that changes are happening, probably as fast as the physical body can take it, so scaling back the sitting practices doesn't bother me any more.
I hope you are seeing good results from your breadth focused meditation too. |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2014 : 2:58:47 PM
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Yeah, if I do merely three breaths from root to forehead, I won't function at all for the rest of the day. That's why I alternatively practice body scan lying down, which is deeply relaxing, and maybe some light forms of pranayama. The same applies to the Mantra meditation, just a few times repeating "I AM" and I'm gone for the day.... And, because my Bhakti is extremely on fire, I feel such a strong desire to meditate for longer, that's why I decided to switch to breath awareness. At the moment I can do 15 minutes, twice a day. If I feel too much purification going on, I do just choiceless awareness meditation instead.
I think so too, that if you don't worry anymore about your practice time being too short, that's already a good sign that it IS working well, isn't it?
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2014 : 3:59:01 PM
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Very similar here. In fact reading your post is like looking in a mirror.
I believe it is the bhakti that makes a small amount of practice go a long way. And I am prone to flights of bhakti. Somebody was saying here a few days ago that it is addictive. I think that is perfectly true. That is my one addiction (never been addicted to anything else). I can get high for a few hours at a time and can't bring myself to switch it off. Then I know my evening sitting practices are going to have to be cut back. When I manage to say 'sober', I can stick to the twice daily DM with a few minutes of SBP.
I too resort to what you call "choiceless awareness meditation" on those evenings when I feel overloaded. I call it "mindfulness meditation", just letting the attention go inwards, without tying it to any particular object, yes?
There is of course the hope that, in time, I will be able to do more. I can feel I am getting used to higher and higher energy levels, so there is good reason to be optimistic. So yes, I'm not short of signs that it is working.
Are you noticing good progress yourself? |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2014 : 12:22:46 AM
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Hi BlueRaincoat,
Thank you for sharing. It's so interesting what you wrote about bhakti and its amplifying of practice, and also quite a paradoxon: the more one wants to practice, the less one ought to (in order to avoid overloading).
Yes your mindfulness meditation sounds similar to what I resort to sometimes. I just drop every object of focus and let everything come and go, and only be aware of awareness itself.
About my progress:
I still have to be careful not to get too many purification symptoms, so, I guess my breath awareness meditation is working. I also experience lots of scenery. Just as I wrote in this post, if I focus on the energetic impulse of the breath, I get my whole body breathing which is quite exhilerating and ecstatic but also bound to lead to some major overload. On the other hand, if I focus more on the physical levels of the breath and maybe its sound, then I sometimes experience a blissful, all pervasive stillness/spaciousness. And generally during the day my inner unshakable silence becomes more stable and I inhabit my body more and more. So, yes, breath awareness meditation is definitely doing a good job. I think it was J. Kabat-Zinn who wrote that one could meditate just with the breath alone the whole life, and it's true, one just gets more and more subtle...
I also hope that one day, I can actully sit and meditate for half an hour or longer and go even deeper.
But you have the best possible addiction. Me too, I can imagine myself in deathbed, apart from being with the people I love, I'd want to meditate.
It's really good to being able to share experiences in this small circle of over-sensitive meditators. Are you doing Asanas as well? I do kind of muscle toning exercises and Asanas AFTER meditation, as before would be disastrous.... 
Horst
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2014 : 09:15:33 AM
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Hello again Horst
quote:
Originally posted by Horst
bhakti and its amplifying of practice, and also quite a paradoxon
Yes, it seems a paradox, probably quite a frustrating one. But Yogani does say bhakti is a practice in itself, so it has to be considered in the overall self-pacing scheme. (Is that 'paradoxon' a nice bit of German coming through? Your English, by the way, is excellent)
quote:
Originally posted by Horst
if I focus on the energetic impulse of the breath, I get my whole body breathing which is quite exhilarating and ecstatic but also bound to lead to some major overload.
I can relate to that. If I make my breadth encompass my whole body (in fact it fells like it goes out beyond the physical body), I get overloaded very quickly. I can break into a sweat after 3 of these very deep breadths, feel exhilarated for a few hours afterwards and then crash. I too put it down to excessive purification. So when I do SBP, I try to limit my awareness to the 'little nerve' and not widen it too much. Sounds like you're doing something similar when you focus more on the physical breath or its sound. I think you are in fact limiting the power of the practice in order to temporize its purification effects. Yes, I believe you can go a long way by working with the breadth, so you should feel under no pressure to switch to another form of meditation as long as you feel the breadth-focused type is working for you.
Are you very familiar with the works of Jon Kabat-Zinn? I have a special interest in any projects aiming to bring spiritual practices into the scientific relm. I would love to do this kind of work myself (a wish that I often release into silence these days).
I do do asanas before meditation, but not as many as I used to. I find the standing ones quite grounding. The sitting/laying down ones began at some point to resemble meditation, so I go pretty quickly through the ones I want to do. I rely on jogging and some other physical exercise to keep me fit and also burn some of the energy. I do squats, press-ups etc in my back garden and use a pair of small weights to work out my arms and shoulders.
Yes, its great to be able share in the forum. It's a wonderful complement to the AYP books and on-line lessons. Maybe we should have a section dedicated to over-sensitive meditators. I think there are quite few of us around. |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2014 : 01:13:06 AM
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Hi BlueRaincoat,
Yes, we sensitive ones need to make the AYP practices less effective in order to ensure proper self-pacing. There you go, another paradox. :-)
I do similar work-outs too and yes, I once did the 8-weeks MBSR program but I'm not very comfortable discussing other issues openly in this forum - if you don't mind, drop me a mail please.
Many Season's greetings,
Horst
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2014 : 3:26:36 PM
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Season's greetings to you too Horst.
I completely understand your reluctance to discuss your experience with MBSR here. I shouldn't think it would be of much interest to AYPers anyway - best we leave this thread on its original topic for others who have similar issues to discuss |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2015 : 01:38:49 AM
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Hi BlueRaincoat,
I'm afraid but I couldn't reply to your mail - I got a failure notice.
Yes, it is a great idea to start a section for over-sensitive meditators. As these AYP techniques are so powerful, there are lots of meditators out there that need to make use of "softer" alternatives.
How best to get about it? Should we ask Yogani to set up a separate section in this Forum or simply start a new thread?
Horst
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2015 : 07:03:45 AM
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Hi Horts
Sorry, it must be that the "Allow email" option in my profile was off - I was not aware that it blocked replies too. It used to be 'on' and then I got a few messages that got me wondering why people chose to email me instead of posting that content on the open forum. Now I worked it out with myself that I don't need to understand why - if people wish to talk to me in private about yoga, then I'll do my best to respond.
Long story short, the "Allow email" is back on, so it should be possible for you to send off that message if you still have it.
Re a section about over-sensitive meditators, the easiest thing would probably be to start a thread under "Building a Daily Practice with Self-Pacing". I can do that later on today. If Yogani felt a new forum section was necessary I'm sure he would create it - no need to trouble him with that IMO. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2015 : 06:57:17 AM
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Dear Horst,
At some point you may wish to try alternate nostril breathing instead of SBP - that is the softer alternative to SBP.
Enjoy your practices.
Sey |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2015 : 11:26:11 AM
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Yes, SeySorciere, either that or breathing directly through any point along the Shumumna. Those points are very subtle but may draw you into the core of your being...
Horst |
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Spinal breathing - whole body breathing
