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Anima
484 Posts |
 Posted - May 19 2014 : 08:12:38 AM
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Hi guys,
have had extreme overload going on three weeks now. People around me are unnerved, except a close friend I've been seeing and talking with.
My stepdad was very dear in my life and very gentle. I went to see his Buddhist teacher yesterday, to whom I had written a letter two months ago, which I wrote on the Chicago retreat. For some reason, I heard his name on some of my most difficult nights leading up to the retreat. I knew I needed to see him.
My experience listening to this teacher, finding the learning center, and afterward, was very bizarre in terms of energy and "coincidences." I can't even list them all. While he talked, seated at the front of the room, I felt like a ghost, barely in my body. It felt like a very "high pitch" wavelength. I knew he could sense what I was feeling.
After his talk, he let people line up to ask him questions, which is rare (as is his being there in person). It all made sense to me though, as I had known the night before that this was the day to come see him.
I greeted him silently, with palms folded. He offered me his hand, which I took. He asked me my name, which I told him. He asked me my last name, which I repeated for him. He let go of my hand around this time. I asked if he had gotten my letter. "Yes, I got your letter," he said. I smiled faintly and looked at him for a few moments, and I began to feel sad. He asked me what I wanted. I glanced away and asked, "What do you think of attachment to living?" I don't remember his short reply, as I view the question more as a hiccup or unintentional deflection.
As in the letter, I related to him that I have been considering resigning myself to monastic life. "I have been thinking of taking up monastic life. What do you think," I asked him. "I don't think so," he said. "You're not ready... Monastic life is not always happy. "What should I do," I asked. "Do nothing... Be happy." That is what he said, and I smiled again. I thanked him and turned to leave, but he said "wait." I went back to him, and he took my hand again. He reassured me that I am supposed to be happy. He thanked me, and I thanked him, and I left. Funny, since he talked about “practicing what you preach” in his talk.
I feel really depressed now. I feel like giving up all my ambitions and efforts. I feel like isolating myself. Like I’m an animal that need to crawl under a cool rock and disappear. I feel hopeless and deluded, deceived, even. Lonely like my words are poison and like I’m dangerous. Also, completely rejected by AA. Just feel like giving up.
But I do care about something. I must.
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2014 : 12:14:21 PM
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Anima! The stories we make! The mind's stories. Wave after wave.
Even if we can't stop them we are identifying with them less.
You share a lot about your progress and how you're identifying less with your personality and more with the stillness and ecstasy within.
Last night while half asleep I was so embarrassed to find my mind becoming lost in stories about every five seconds. I felt so worthless after spending years of trying to be "Spiritual". Dozens of times I'd be still and then notice I'm lost in mind crap seconds later.
But this moring I have a better outlook and you know you will too.
We're making great progress Bro!  |
Edited by - BillinL.A. on May 19 2014 12:15:19 PM |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2014 : 1:45:15 PM
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Ah Anima
Great post by Bill ... continuing along the same lines.
What's the difference between surrender (or letting go) and giving up? My mind thinks it knows the difference, but if that's true then why do I keep telling myself stories? Perhaps we should look into this.
With true surrender it seems there is no do-er, no one to do the surrendering. There is only the act of surrendering and no one to claim ownership of that act. So with surrender, it would appear that what is actually being surrendered is the separate self. That is good, yes?
However with giving up, there is usually the story about it. And the story always (or almost always) revolves around the separate self. The story reinforces or maybe even creates the separate self. That is not so good. The story often causes intense misery. So when we let go of the story, we are free of that story (as well as the misery that accompanies it). Until the next story comes along to make us miserable.
With some things the mind helps us to do what needs to be done. But with other things the mind is generally helpless. The mind pretends to understand and then it just goes ahead and does its own thing anyway. The mind is really sneaky. We've got to watch it closely .. like you would watch a very small and rambunctious child, to keep them out of trouble. Sometimes they get crabby and need to take a nap, to quiet down.
With the mind it seems less is more. Quiet is better. So there are times when we have to soothe the mind and coax it to release the stories. It can take a long time to convince the mind to relax its grip.
love
parvati
edit/ clarification
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Edited by - parvati9 on May 19 2014 2:27:23 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2014 : 3:27:57 PM
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I'm minded to say 'give up what' ? Yet it always sounds trite and condescending.
What on earth do we imagine we will attain ? What goal could possibly be set ? What time frame could be placed on the attainment ?
This is setting up for failure, disappointment and the destruction of faith. The sudden deflation of hope after years of intense practices. Yet this is exactly what is necessary.
Just as the mantra is lost during meditation then picked up once again. It follows that that must also be consistent with a belief in attainment until finally it is clear that no goal can ever be reached by desire. It is the end of these mind conjured beliefs that have to eventually fall away and desire seen for what it is.
It is by the process of faith followed by broken dreams that the back of desire is finally broken and surrender happens. Eventually the stillness persists, yet we cannot ever be aware because we become stillness itself.
Its like a holiday which is longed for, planned, worked towards, saved for until one day it is finally realised. Then the holiday is over and everything is back to square one. Holiday blues set in. Then this pattern of desire, hope, industry, joy and disappointment is repeated until it is ended.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2014 : 5:03:47 PM
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Brilliant things said by Billin, parvati, and karl.
Give yourself a pat on the back for having the clarity, and the consciousness, to so clearly recognize your feelings and stories. THAT awareness is a sign of progress, for in giving the stories the attention they are screaming for, they get dissolved, or at least distanced. The problem is when we try to prematurely erase them or stuff them down in some corner. Repression leads to neuroses. But contemplation and consideration leads to flow.
Be still and flow, my friend. As the mountain lets the river trickle down its back, so do we let the stories and feelings skim across the surface of our heart-mind, and choose which ones to emphasize, and which ones to dissolve.
To summarize, I would say you're just getting a taste of dispassion/detachment (a symptom of purification and opening), hence the compulsion to give up all ambitions. Trust in the trajectory of your continued awakening and have faith in the restoration of a dispassionate passion for living. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2014 : 5:23:35 PM
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Desire is not really a problem. Rather it is the clinging and rejecting that is the problem. What is wanted here is equanimity. Be happy, be happy. Why? Happiness comes and goes. What about the sadness? Are we to shoo it away? Are we to avoid sadness because there's a myth that it's difficult to use the energy of sadness to our advantage?
No it's not difficult at all. The myth can be deconstructed. Sadness is an opportunity for growth. Only speaking for myself here, but sadness has many endearing qualities once it is accepted and appreciated.
For one thing, sadness offers a perfect climate for evaluating and eliminating stories. Happiness isn't at all useful for this contemplation. And what about distractions? Does one mind if they are distracted from their sadness? Usually not. But what if one's happiness is interrupted? Do we mind losing our happiness? From time to time most of us know what it's like to get angry because our happiness has been disrupted.
Sadness offers us the opportunity to pray for others who are sad like us, and to connect with and uplift those who are in much worse condition. We can access the love in our hearts and pour it out to them. Of course we can do it when we're happy too, but at that time it often doesn't occur to us. We're too busy being happy. To be capable of compassion in any circumstance is something worth striving for. And easier to start learning how when one is sad.
love
parvati |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2014 : 6:11:46 PM
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Hi Anime,
I don't have many words to offer you but I hope you can sense the subtle intention behind these ones.
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2014 : 9:50:27 PM
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Thank you, friends. read through some posts and will read the rest... after a mind nap 
Friends took me down to the river. I played a song. Will take a little break from writing.
Love |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2014 : 07:36:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
Desire is not really a problem. Rather it is the clinging and rejecting that is the problem. What is wanted here is equanimity. Be happy, be happy. Why? Happiness comes and goes. What about the sadness? Are we to shoo it away? Are we to avoid sadness because there's a myth that it's difficult to use the energy of sadness to our advantage?
No it's not difficult at all. The myth can be deconstructed. Sadness is an opportunity for growth. Only speaking for myself here, but sadness has many endearing qualities once it is accepted and appreciated.
For one thing, sadness offers a perfect climate for evaluating and eliminating stories. Happiness isn't at all useful for this contemplation. And what about distractions? Does one mind if they are distracted from their sadness? Usually not. But what if one's happiness is interrupted? Do we mind losing our happiness? From time to time most of us know what it's like to get angry because our happiness has been disrupted.
Sadness offers us the opportunity to pray for others who are sad like us, and to connect with and uplift those who are in much worse condition. We can access the love in our hearts and pour it out to them. Of course we can do it when we're happy too, but at that time it often doesn't occur to us. We're too busy being happy. To be capable of compassion in any circumstance is something worth striving for. And easier to start learning how when one is sad.
love
parvati
Yes
Love you, friends |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2014 : 10:25:09 AM
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The Buddhist teacher probably knows what he's doing. He wanted you to be happy. Okay. But how? What makes people happy? In my opinion what makes people happy is to follow their hearts. And don't let anyone discourage you. Is this man in charge of the monastery that you wanted to join? If so, there may be no room for newcomers at this time. (Did he say that?) There are plenty other monasteries and spiritual communities. If this is what you want, follow your heart. Keep on keeping on. Put in the effort, do the research, explore your options ... and then release the outcome to the absolute. You make the effort, but allow the absolute to figure out exactly how it will manifest
Even the desire for equanimity must be loosely held. For if we grasp at it with too much force and determination, it will elude us. So we pay attention to the moods, the states of mind and heart that come and go. But our attempt is to stay rooted in that which is permanent. The permanent doesn't come and go, it is constant and therefore reliable. Stable.
K awakening is often like being on a roller coaster ride. Climbing and falling. The mind is terrified with falling but only briefly before climbing up again into the ecstasy. In a k awakening, we experience so much of this climbing and falling, eventually we may well say - enough! Just let me have peace! Shakti kinda corners us and gets us right where she wants us. When I cried out to her to please stop the roller coaster, her reply intuitively sensed was - yes. Yes. Now you see. Good. Remain here (in peace) for a while. You see if there is anything else that can (even remotely) compare with it. She wants us calm, peaceful, serene, silent ... because that is the state that facilitates her upward path to Shiva. It is abiding in peace that facilitates spiritual enlightenment. They are one and the same, in my opinion.
love
parvati |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2014 : 12:03:07 PM
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Dear one,
I've been where you're at... And it's painful... Unfortunately I have no immediate remedy... All I can say is don't give up hope... Rely on God and someday your life will change.. You will look back and say nothing ever happened.. All is good. Until then I pray for Allah to give you peace and love.
Much love |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2014 : 06:19:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
Desire is not really a problem. Rather it is the clinging and rejecting that is the problem. What is wanted here is equanimity. Be happy, be happy. Why? Happiness comes and goes. What about the sadness? Are we to shoo it away? Are we to avoid sadness because there's a myth that it's difficult to use the energy of sadness to our advantage?
No it's not difficult at all. The myth can be deconstructed. Sadness is an opportunity for growth. Only speaking for myself here, but sadness has many endearing qualities once it is accepted and appreciated.
For one thing, sadness offers a perfect climate for evaluating and eliminating stories. Happiness isn't at all useful for this contemplation. And what about distractions? Does one mind if they are distracted from their sadness? Usually not. But what if one's happiness is interrupted? Do we mind losing our happiness? From time to time most of us know what it's like to get angry because our happiness has been disrupted.
Sadness offers us the opportunity to pray for others who are sad like us, and to connect with and uplift those who are in much worse condition. We can access the love in our hearts and pour it out to them. Of course we can do it when we're happy too, but at that time it often doesn't occur to us. We're too busy being happy. To be capable of compassion in any circumstance is something worth striving for. And easier to start learning how when one is sad.
love
parvati
A desire for equanimity is still a desire for a change from present circumstances. True equanimity would have no place for desire. even when we say we should give up something we are instituting a change based on desire. Even to say 'I shall remain static' is a desire away from movement. Its inescapable so we shouldn't try :-) but we will until desire is exhausted.
Desire is a double edged sword. Without desire there can be no change, but with desire will always come suffering. Both are natural.
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Edited by - karl on May 21 2014 06:29:40 AM |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2014 : 12:13:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
A desire for equanimity is still a desire for a change from present circumstances. True equanimity would have no place for desire. even when we say we should give up something we are instituting a change based on desire. Even to say 'I shall remain static' is a desire away from movement. Its inescapable so we shouldn't try :-) but we will until desire is exhausted.
Desire is a double edged sword. Without desire there can be no change, but with desire will always come suffering. Both are natural.
Namaste Karl
This explanation has been reworded and still lacking. Others have said it much better than is possible here.
It's not easy to demonstrate how desire is necessary in order to stay alive. And simultaneously maintain that we are able to progress quite nicely on our spiritual paths anyway. We can pursue an entirely normal existence and still realize the Self. Completely exhausting desire, for most of us, isn't something with which we need be concerned. And therefore it isn't an issue. It will happen when it happens as a result of our earnest endeavors, whatever they may be. Because desires are necessary for ordinary life, they are not the issue. Rather the speed and aggression with which they are pursued is the issue, and we can do something about that.
With the exhaustion of desire, comes the end of the necessity of incarnating in a body. Indeed, with the total exhaustion of desire, it would be impossible to remain alive in a body. It has been necessary for some spiritual teachers to be kept alive by their disciples because the teacher no longer cares. How does one remain in embodiment without the desire to take care of basic needs? Or someone else desiring to take care of those needs for us? Conscious or unconscious desires seem requisite for the continuity of life.
Regarding equanimity ... once it is manifested through either attainment or being recognized as one's true nature, there is no need for the further desiring of it.
Desire is the nature of life, is it not? The act of taking a breath, putting food in our mouths, 'earning a living', going to school, putting one foot in front of the other, engaging in spiritual practices - all these require conscious or unconscious desire. In addition to the relatively self involved reasons for keeping ourselves in a body, there are our obligations and responsibilities to others: Children, grandchildren, parents, grandparents, animals and friends. We also stay alive (through necessarily desiring to do so) in order to take care of them, and assist them in the continuity of their lives.
The complete exhaustion of desire will happen in its own time. It would appear to be a gradual process of arriving at that point. Yet it could happen in a split second as well. We can certainly practice stabilizing in pure awareness while living an ordinary life. For me, that means remaining present and peaceful, slowing down, and listening to the guru who will ultimately be found everywhere - both inside and outside.
love
parvati
edit/ attempted clarification
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Edited by - parvati9 on May 21 2014 5:54:02 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2014 : 4:39:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
As Chogyam Trungpa says in Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, it is the speed and aggression of our pursuit that is the problem.
Chogyam Trungpa made sure he fulfilled plenty of his desires. He bailed from Tibet (like the Dalai Lama) when the Chinese invaded--both of them leaving their respective lineages to suffer the oppression, as they watched from the safety of a distant exile--protected by sympathetic foreigners with "spiritual" interest.
Once he arrived to America, he renounced his monastic vows and took to heavy drinking and sleeping with lots of women. So, I'm not quite sure how much he was cutting through spiritual materialism as much as adding to it. If he was cutting through it, he probably would've exercised a little more of the yamas/niyamas and a little less of the material indulgences.
Not to bash--just to provide perspective between teacher AND teaching.
In the AYP lessons, it's quite clear from the get-go that desire is the most important ingredient. Desire for what?--that's the question. The object of desire (ishta) is just as important as the raw desire itself--if not more important. I've directed my desires to objects that had led away from enlightenment, and to objects that have been more conducive to ecstatic bliss, which is a prime symptom of enlightenment. Low-vibration objects don't result in ecstatic bliss; high-vibrations objects do.
Low vibrations might give a fleeting, sickly pleasure, but nothing comparable to the more eternal qualities of divine love. That's why we have a list in samyama which is filled with high-vibration thought-essences, like love, unity, strength, etc.
Since manifestation and all of existence is sustained by cycles, patterns, and rhythm, the only option for realistic enlightenment is to choose the repetition of behavioral patterns that are aimed high, to the most refined condition achievable.
Now that I've so eloquently outlined the grand principles, now let's see if I can follow them. Ha! That's another story... |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2014 : 5:53:52 PM
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| Thank you Anima, for crying out (loud!) and giving birth to this fabulous thread. I hope you can make your peace. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2014 : 5:56:34 PM
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Hi Parvati,
Beautifully said.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2014 : 06:19:47 AM
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The universe seems to function adequately enough without the need of desire. 
If inquiry is done on the word desire it cannot be found. It is a word that forms part of the illusion of separation. Its like building a brick wall within a dream. When the waking state is reached then the wall is nowhere to be seen, all that effort seems to have been wasted. Maybe your dream muscles ache, but your waking muscles show no such discomfort.
Desire contains within it the seed of its own destruction and with it the destruction of the illusion. Yet the illusion persists and so it must be utilised. The dream tools are required to end the dream.
Recognising that a desire is required in order to have less or more desire really shows it for what it is. How large is the quantity of desire needed to reduce desire to zero ?  if everything requires desire then what is necessary for desire ? gets weird doesn't it ?
Self inquiry can show that desire does not exist or persist. This can be very uncomfortable if there isn't a degree of stillness present. It can be destabilising in a particularly unpleasant way.
All the talk of doing something, going somewhere, quitting practices, increasing practices can be seen through the lie that desire exists in any sense at all. Yet here we are and this is what we must do.
In the dream sense then do X to wake up. Desire will be necessary because it is part of the rules of the game. These rules can be used as levers. Maybe in a dream a ladder is built to escape the dream. The ladder cannot ever break the dream boundary but the act of attempting to do so fuelled by desire will create the circumstances by which it can be realised. We don't employ any such mechanism within a dream state, we don't do practices or self inquiry and yet we wake quite naturally from it. We didn't hit a lever, walk through a door, work on becoming aware or enlightened.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2014 : 3:32:02 PM
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LOL, Karl! You're just deconstructing our whole paradigm, now aren't you! Well, you do it artfully, that's for sure.  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2014 : 4:00:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
LOL, Karl! You're just deconstructing our whole paradigm, now aren't you! Well, you do it artfully, that's for sure.
I was aware of that and nearly pulled the post in case it hindered progress for others. Its pointless saying much if it doesn't help in some way. Better say nothing at all. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2014 : 6:59:58 PM
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Oh, c'mon man...haven't you heard Frank Sinatra?..."Fly me to the moon, let me play among the stars...let me know what life is like on Jupiter and Mars." Cosmic samyama.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2014 : 06:08:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Oh, c'mon man...haven't you heard Frank Sinatra?..."Fly me to the moon, let me play among the stars...let me know what life is like on Jupiter and Mars." Cosmic samyama.
We can tell tall tales I can describe scenery or a holiday destination. However I'm not anywhere else than here and locked into the same illusion. I only realise it is an illusion and will work for no pay to dissolve it. I don't expect a better place, indeed, who knows when the illusion is dissolved it might be far worse.
I'm walking into the cellar with eyes wide open. If I meet a mad axe man, zombie or oblivion down those steps then so be it. I have no cause to be concerned as my internal Guru is guiding me. I have nothing much else to do except ensure I keep watching the compass needle and not get too distracted. Its my only task. Keeping right on until daybreak holding a tiny flickering flame before me.
Ye though I walk through the valley of death I shall fear no evil...... |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2014 : 12:07:42 PM
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(Note to self: set up an elaborate prank in which I hide in Karl's cellar with an axe in hand, dressed in zombie attire, then flip on the lights and do some dancing under strobe lights and a disco ball--also set up prior to his arrival).  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2014 : 1:00:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
(Note to self: set up an elaborate prank in which I hide in Karl's cellar with an axe in hand, dressed in zombie attire, then flip on the lights and do some dancing under strobe lights and a disco ball--also set up prior to his arrival).
Sounds like fun. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2014 : 11:09:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anima Deorum
I feel really depressed now. I feel like giving up all my ambitions and efforts. I feel like isolating myself. Like I’m an animal that need to crawl under a cool rock and disappear. I feel hopeless and deluded, deceived, even. Lonely like my words are poison and like I’m dangerous. Also, completely rejected by AA. Just feel like giving up.
But I do care about something. I must.
Dear Anima,
It's been a few weeks since you originally posted this and I hope things are going better for you.
Everybody has already given you some good advice and feedback.
I would just like to add, w/ regard to the feelings you described above: "it's ok to feel whatever we feel." This may sound obvious, but for some reason it often eludes us. Like, we feel sad and then we turn around and beat ourselves up for feeling sad, as if that is going to help! So in my experience the first step is simply to accept what we feel, take a deep breath, allow ourselves to feel it, and then ultimately let it go. Feelings come and go. It's ok. No big deal, it's just life. Be kind to yourself if you possibly can. This too shall pass.
Love & hugs. |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2014 : 4:40:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
quote:
Originally posted by Anima Deorum
I feel really depressed now. I feel like giving up all my ambitions and efforts. I feel like isolating myself. Like I’m an animal that need to crawl under a cool rock and disappear. I feel hopeless and deluded, deceived, even. Lonely like my words are poison and like I’m dangerous. Also, completely rejected by AA. Just feel like giving up.
But I do care about something. I must.
Dear Anima,
It's been a few weeks since you originally posted this and I hope things are going better for you.
Everybody has already given you some good advice and feedback.
I would just like to add, w/ regard to the feelings you described above: "it's ok to feel whatever we feel." This may sound obvious, but for some reason it often eludes us. Like, we feel sad and then we turn around and beat ourselves up for feeling sad, as if that is going to help! So in my experience the first step is simply to accept what we feel, take a deep breath, allow ourselves to feel it, and then ultimately let it go. Feelings come and go. It's ok. No big deal, it's just life. Be kind to yourself if you possibly can. This too shall pass.
Love & hugs.
Hi Radharani, and thanks again for your concern.
My mood is very unstable. I guess that proves you right!  Thoughts and feelings pass by like water under a bridge. People look at me strange when I say that about myself.
Thank you for telling me it's okay.
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Give up
