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chinmayo
Finland
67 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 19 2013 : 04:42:36 AM
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Hi!
I have always had problem with various meditation techniques involving imagining, including the pranayama technique of AYP. Many other meditation techniques like Microcosmic Orbit, Maha Mudra, Chiqong etc also often include imagining bright light, buddha or some other thing in order to function properly even for the beginners. I can't even imagine a speck of light, not to mention a field or a ball of light so I have been just doing the meditations with the corresponding movements and breathing but without any imagining.
I wonder if am I the only person who doesn't seem to be able to imagine anything? Is it a hindrance? Is it connected to 3rd eye problem? Is it a skill that has to be developed and how to proceed?
AYP DM is easy as it doesn't require or even encourage imagining, but sometimes I would like to be able to perform specific practises also. I also do the SPB but only following the shushumna with attention by controlling the breath. I still feel like I am probably missing something and not doing it correctly.
Maybe I should add that I'm more an aural person, I think in terms of music and sound, and never been very visual in my expression. Mantras work very well for me.
Thank you for reading,
Blessed love. |
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mathurs
United Kingdom
197 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2013 : 06:47:08 AM
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Hello Chinmayo, You are not the only person who cant imagine anything  I am not a very visual person either and if I may add - even after an almost consistent practice of AYP SBP for almost 4 years I still cant imagine the sushumna.
I think you are doing fine - so long as you are moving attention up and down your sushumna - which you are. If you are not already experiencing this - you will find in time that the energy guides you up correctly. Very confusingly the attention guides the energy and the energy guides the attention. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2013 : 10:45:57 AM
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Hi Chinmayo
Thanks for your post.
It is often an assumption made by many people giving meditations that everybody can visualise or imagine parts of the body. Whislt this is true for most it is certainly not the case for some people, as you discovered.
You probably know that it is not the imagining that is important. The imagining or visualising is a step towards embodiment of awareness in the particular area you wish to focus on.
Since you have an oral or auditory bias then the spoken description (internal or external) of where you want the attention in the body is the equivalent of a visualisation for a visual person.
Visualisation or imagining can actually be a trap for some people because they can stay at the visual stage and not make the transition to embodiment. Just knowing this can be enough for the person to go the further step of embodiment.
I don't know what it is like, in terms of traps for an auditory person such as yourself as I am very visual myself. Maybe you can give some feedback on that if you can. Something tells me that going from auditory to embodiment might be more direct but I don't know.
Does this make sense to you?
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2013 : 9:34:38 PM
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| I'm curious, chin mayo, do you see visualizations when performing yoni mudra? I' m treated to quite a show every time and assumed it was the same for everyone. |
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chinmayo
Finland
67 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2013 : 06:45:12 AM
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Thank you for your answers, marthurs, sparkle and dogboy!
marthur: Ok I'm glad to know I'm not the only one! One of the reasons why I always found meditation to be frustrating was partly due to the inability to even start with the practises, and maybe why the AYP DM hit me really well! But good to know that it isn't that crucial. I will use that energy/attention idea.
sparkle: That's an interesting idea. Instead of forcing imagination, I could for example, feel the mantra resonating in different parts of the body. Some sounds and syllables resonate in different parts like the AUM where the 'A' I feel in the hara, 'U' I feel in the heart chakra and 'M' in the ajna. This I think I could do!
dogboy: I have not yet tried yoni mudra kumbhaka! but I do sometimes see circles emanating from the third eye during samyama, and once when my shiatsu sensei taught me some (quite painful) hot shiatsu techniques, I saw constellations (Ursa Major and I think it was Orion belt.) But those kinds of visuals come automatically, not from my imagination. but more commonly the effects are just felt as in intense pleasure, slight pressure or tingling.
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2013 : 07:48:41 AM
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Hi Chinmayo
The ability to clearly imagine the sushumna in my mind, has minimal or no relevance in practice. Shanti told me something like she traces the feeling of the spine, as she finds it hard to imagine. I, myself after years of AYP sometimes have clear image of sushumna, sometimes do not. I tend to trace feeling of the spine.
Liberation will not depend on clearly imagining this funny little tube, and you will benefit from pranayama equally with or without clear imagination.
Best,
Josh |
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mathurs
United Kingdom
197 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2013 : 08:09:49 AM
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Josh, Chinmayo,
Yes it is this "feeling" that I am describing as energy or prana.
Liberation will not depend on clearly imagining this funny little tube : 
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2013 : 08:42:17 AM
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| Yes exactly! :-) I can definitely feel the prana after this time, no see tube though! |
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chinmayo
Finland
67 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2013 : 10:42:26 AM
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Ok, so the visualization is basically a one way to focus the attention/energy?
mr_anderson, ok i think i get it! i'll be working on this this weekend as I am going to enjoy the solstice, which is the darkest day here, in the woods. It means meditation in the cabin in the forest, alone.
btw, funny remark, AFAIK my name means the EMBODIMENT of knowledge :) |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2013 : 1:59:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinmayo
btw, funny remark, AFAIK my name means the EMBODIMENT of knowledge :)
Hi Afiak, great name cause that's what it's all about -embodiment
I would be very interested in knowing what the intermediary step is, in your case and others who are not visual, between the intention to focus on the spine and move up and down it, and actually feeling the energy or whatever you feel.
In the case of a visual person the area or specific location is visualised and this leads usually to feeling it. So from the intention to do spinal breathing to feeling it there is the intermediary step of visualisation.
So what happens with you and others - is just the thought of the spine enough to bring you directly to feeling it, and if so what kind of thought is it? Is the thought in the form of words or sounds or what?
Very curious |
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chinmayo
Finland
67 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2013 : 3:20:07 PM
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^ AFAIK = As far as i know, "Chinmayo/chinmaya" means "embodiment of knowledge" in sanskrit :)
What I do in SPB, since I cannot imagine the shushumna, is that I follow the breath with my attention by following the physical breathing. When I inhale, I first inhale into the hara/belly and then expand to the upper parts of the lungs and finally "slingshot" the breath/attention from the lungs to the brain. On the exhale the opposite happens although more slowly. But I'm also interested to know other approaches, as I believe that there must be a more delicate way.. |
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NoDogma
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2013 : 6:02:15 PM
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Chinmayo,
I am not clear exactly what you're doing : whether your attention is moving along the breath (inside the body where air fills) or along the spine. My confusion is because in your 1st post you said " I also do the SPB but only following the shushumna with attention by controlling the breath " which I interpret as 'attention moving along sushuma'. But in the above post, it looks like your attention is in the breath and not along the spine.
If you're not able to move the attention along spine because you can't imagine it, then try touching the spine with finger before the practice. That will help you moving the attention along the remembered location of spine. Yes, it should be along center of spine, but that will happen as you start feeling the energy.
Also, this should be a smooth motion (smoother the better)..
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chinmayo
Finland
67 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2013 : 02:55:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by NoDogma
Chinmayo,
I am not clear exactly what you're doing : whether your attention is moving along the breath (inside the body where air fills) or along the spine. My confusion is because in your 1st post you said " I also do the SPB but only following the shushumna with attention by controlling the breath " which I interpret as 'attention moving along sushuma'. But in the above post, it looks like your attention is in the breath and not along the spine.
If you're not able to move the attention along spine because you can't imagine it, then try touching the spine with finger before the practice. That will help you moving the attention along the remembered location of spine. Yes, it should be along center of spine, but that will happen as you start feeling the energy.
Also, this should be a smooth motion (smoother the better)..
Hello NoDogma!
Thanks for the reply! I try to explain what I am doing.
All of the intestines, diaphragm and the lungs are in contact with the spine so i can internally touch the spine first by activating mulabandha and thereby touching the ends of the spine and as it is the diaphragm which is in charge of the breathing, I proceed by breathing into the belly, then proceed by breathing to lower lungs and then upper lungs and upwards. After doing it in this way a couple of times and getting the motion going, I can shift the attention from the techniques on to the spine.
However, I don't feel the energy moving in the spine even when I get the attention moving up and down. I do however enter into an altered, more deep state of mind with some static energy sensations often in the back and the legs. I know it's not the way it is supposed to be done, but for me it helps a bit, otherwise I don't get any sensation from the practise.
But I will try that spine touching with the finger in the next sitting! I hope I will get it right one day.
Btw, the solstice retreat was very powerful! Although staying alone in a cabin in the middle of the forest during a storm with only natural lighting is not for the faint of heart, the energy in there was quite powerful with all the natural elements present except the thunder. Next time I will also add a fast with it to make it even easier to stay in the meditative mood as I wouldn't have to be cooking food every four hours. |
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NoDogma
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 02:44:35 AM
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Chinmayo,
Glad you liked your retreat. I live in an isolated area and it's my retreat everyday :-) .. although, am planning to move to a crowded area in a few months and then I will need to find retreats.
Don't worry about not feeling the energy flow. Some people feel it quickly whereas it can take long for others. Things like MahaMudra, Navi, Shambhavi will hasten the energy flow but you have to go slow (I've started thinking along this line : it took me 16 years to get M.S. (12+4+2) and I should not expect to get Yoga in 2 years).
Imagining things (like center of spine, lights etc.) is difficult and not really needed. For all you know, one can fool oneself by imagining wrong things.
Apart from touching the spine, have you tried contracting the muscle on the side of the spine ? that helps locate the spine. Try lifting small weight in different back positions while trying to feel where you feel the tension in the spine area. Also try to feel the spine while doing regular activities ..
I tried doing what you mentioned with SBP. I did it only a few times and found it difficult for the attention to reach the spine. It could be because I am not used to it but the attention always stayed inside the body and quite away from center of spine. It is difficult to imagine the center of spine. So, feeling the spine is a good start.
regards
Savyasachi
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Edited by - NoDogma on Dec 31 2013 02:56:35 AM |
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chinmayo
Finland
67 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2014 : 7:23:19 PM
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Thanks for your words!
This feeling of not being able to SBP has been bothering me for a while and I have been distracted from the practice altogether for couple of days now. I think I will self-pace now by dropping the SBP and after a while I will slowly reintroduce it by trying out some of the ideas you have mentioned. It's been a bit hectic both spiritually and also life-situation-wise with the holidays and now I suddendly got a new, more demanding post at my work. Lots of stuff to learn!
Blessed love |
Edited by - chinmayo on Jan 02 2014 7:29:13 PM |
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Imagining problems
