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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 10:08:32 AM
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The ego-voice in my head has many characters, many tones, and many motives. Sometimes this little voice says the most absurd things, and from a deeper place in my solar plexus, I just laugh as he rambles from topic to topic. One moment he might be a compassionate troubador who poetically waxes on and on about the beauty of the world. In another moment he might maniacally joke about burning down buildings and destroying that very same world. There is some silent, intuitive witness within my localized consciousness that spontaneously decides which of these ego-voices is worth manifesting. This is an ongoing process of discernment and discrimination, which lends itself to promote realities like love, radiance, unity and many other samyama-like qualities.
Who is it that chooses to cultivate and give more attention to the positive thoughts? Well, I don't know exactly, but I do know that this observational presence has no fear of the end, or no doubts regarding the future of my body-mind, or the state of the world. This quiet and still spirit is completely unshaken by the perpetual rollercoaster that tumbles forward on the tracks of space and time. Yet, this spirit has the power to shape and shift the trajectory of the ride, and That...is amazing. That conscious option and impetus is living the paradox without clinging to the seemingly safe distance that the witness might feign to offer. That is surrender to the flow--merging stillness with action. That is using the ego-voice as a tool and talent, rather than regarding the inner voice as a nuisance, an enemy, a disease to be gotten rid off.
Even as I write this forum post, I heard the little voice say: "Ah, yes, this will be a good post. Too good not to share." And the voice has said: "Oh yes, I hope someone will read this!" And then with the silent witness, I can re-introduce another thought-stream, like: "This will be a post that a few people might resonate with, but I must not put much energy into any worry about how "good" or "bad" it is." Also, I will post the words in the spirit of giving with no expectation of return, and this might stimulate a discussion about other people's inner relationship with their mental ego-voice.
Sometimes the ego-voice turns into words that echo from my mouth and travel to the ear(s) of nearby listener(s). Sometimes not. Sometimes the I-witness decides not to turn thought-vibrations into auditory vibrations. That often automatic, effortless restraint is the presence of conscience, and that is the spontaneous reality of free will choice which is endowed in every individual on the planet. That choice of choosing from a fully engaged witness-perspective is a gift--a gift from the One that supersedes, surpasses, and constantly surprises all the rest of the Little Ones.
And the ego voice now says: "Ah, you are a child of God like everyone else...unique, but of equal value, and possessing the same inherent potential as the complete conscious spectrum of Being and Beings." And the ego-voice has become so fluent with my fingertips as they type on the QWERTY keyboard, that I can just let these letters flow through a stream of awareness that wishes to bridge the inside with the outside.
I would be very curious to hear from anyone who feels compelled to share about their witness-perspective in relationship to the ego-voice, and how that relationship is unfolding. I have found it to be a playful dance that never gets old, and that is an intricate, delicate part of living this dream.
Share, baby, share! The witness and the ego implore you... |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 11:16:50 AM
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Hi,
I have tried to kill the "mind" for a few years under the influence of Osho, maybe I misunderstood him, I don't know and don't care since I've left the path behind. My wife taught me that thoughts don't matter, it is the energy behind them that counts.
For me now, the only thing I look at is - am I relaxed with something or not. When I use force in something, counter force is bound to kick me in the ass  . So when I am able, I sometimes try to let go and let universe lead me past my resistance.
For me, thoughts are just a manifestation of the energetic problem inside. True thoughts (ideas) come once, and don't need repeating. If thought repeats, it means that energy is stuck somewhere (at least the way I see it). Dealing with thoughts for me is very entangling and leads nowhere most of the time, bypassing the true (energetic) issue. Again, this is just my view.
Not sure if you wanted this kind of response, but there it is... Hope I'm not a party breaker. |
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 1:45:58 PM
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My ego voice drowns out my witness perspective much of the time but a lot less lately since meditating consistently and doing the Presence Process breathing.
I've been through stuff the last couple months that would have crushed me previously but at the worst times the witness voice has saved the day...and saved me from living under a freeway overpass.
Bodhi Tree threads like this so intimately speak to where I am in life and support my efforts. I can't tell you how much a help it is! |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 3:13:45 PM
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| In the shift from anxious self/body/mind-separation into a more intimate relationship with silent witness, I see more, hear more, respond with better attunement. There is more acceptance of what is. False urgencies recede. Fears are seen as such. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 3:32:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mykal K
Hi,
I have tried to kill the "mind" for a few years under the influence of Osho, maybe I misunderstood him, I don't know and don't care since I've left the path behind. My wife taught me that thoughts don't matter, it is the energy behind them that counts.
For me now, the only thing I look at is - am I relaxed with something or not. When I use force in something, counter force is bound to kick me in the ass . So when I am able, I sometimes try to let go and let universe lead me past my resistance.
For me, thoughts are just a manifestation of the energetic problem inside. True thoughts (ideas) come once, and don't need repeating. If thought repeats, it means that energy is stuck somewhere (at least the way I see it). Dealing with thoughts for me is very entangling and leads nowhere most of the time, bypassing the true (energetic) issue. Again, this is just my view.
Not sure if you wanted this kind of response, but there it is... Hope I'm not a party breaker.
Hm. Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.
One thing that comes to mind is the layers of self that are described in certain models of personality/individuality. It's been said there are 3 bodies: idea, energy, and physical--ranging from subtle to gross. Following this model, thoughts precede energy, and then thoughts and energy combine to become form. Based on my observations, this sequence seems to be very true.
That is why I value samyama so highly. It begins with subtle thoughts, which when released into stillness, acquire energy and take form by divine will--which is way beyond my comprehension. However, I do have the option to cultivate such miracles by softly releasing thoughts into the psychic atmosphere.
I'm glad you've given up the battle to "kill" your mind. The mind, when resting in the cradle of the hands of stillness, is quite a beautiful place to reside, in my experience. When the mind is connected to external AND internal reality, I think it's pretty awesome.
In terms of "true" thoughts never repeating, I kind of know what you mean, because once something is reconciled on the various planes (idea, energy, physical), there is no more need to revisit the specific pattern or blockage. But, on a similar note, I'm constantly repeating sutras (subtle thought-essences) and releasing them, so there is a divine rhythm and repetition in that dynamic.
You're far from a party-breaker. I would say you're a party-enhancer. Love. Unity. Wisdom.  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 3:35:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BillinL.A.
My ego voice drowns out my witness perspective much of the time but a lot less lately since meditating consistently and doing the Presence Process breathing.
I've been through stuff the last couple months that would have crushed me previously but at the worst times the witness voice has saved the day...and saved me from living under a freeway overpass.
Bodhi Tree threads like this so intimately speak to where I am in life and support my efforts. I can't tell you how much a help it is!
Glad to know the Presence Process is helping. Recently, I had a conversation with cosmic in which he spoke very highly about that modality. Just talking to him about it was lighting me up with some ecstatic bliss. I may look into it. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 3:38:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
In the shift from anxious self/body/mind-separation into a more intimate relationship with silent witness, I see more, hear more, respond with better attunement. There is more acceptance of what is. False urgencies recede. Fears are seen as such.
Excellent. The brevity of your response shimmers with a Truth beyond intellect. Thank you.  |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 4:37:55 PM
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Hi Bodhi,
Very interesting post. Thank you.
What do you mean by the witness "choosing" which thoughts to manifest? Who is aware of that choice then?
The witness does not choose. Nor does it "do" anything for that matter. It is simply the fragmented ego-mind with multiple facets that decides and chooses what to manifest and what to repress. The many "parts" of the ego-mind include (to name a few): the monkey mind (the one that moves randomly from thought to thought), the more subtle intellect or buddhi and of course the array of emotions brought up by thought - all of these driven by the impulses/vasanas that remain in the subconscious layer until intentionally sought and brought up.. Even the so-called "informed choices" are made by some part of the ego, and if there is a "choice" being made, there is a vasana (like/dislike, should/should not) behind it for sure.
The witness is that which is aware, simply noticing. The only "doer" there is is the ego (aka the separate self) with its strong sense of ownership.
Two cents.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2013 : 9:45:36 PM
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Choiceless choosing, kami. Letting go and acting with finesse and grace. The witness is no longer an object, but a presence dissolved in unity. Be still and flow, you know. The witness stage is only an intermediary stage before re-engaging with all aspects of life: inner and outer.
Take a step back, and then dive back in, but deeper this time. Enriched, enlivened, ecstatic. You dig? Witness cannot remain stagnant. Back into stillness, forward into living. Back and forth, back and forth.
As Steve Miller said: keep on rockin' me, baby.
Love. |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2013 : 03:36:35 AM
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Hi Bodhi Tree
quote:
It's been said there are 3 bodies: idea, energy, and physical--ranging from subtle to gross. Following this model, thoughts precede energy, and then thoughts and energy combine to become form. Based on my observations, this sequence seems to be very true.
I am a bit confused now.
In my experience, if there is no energy "driving me", then there are no thoughts. For thoughts to exist in me, there has to be some energetic movement.Even when I think, if I retract energy from thoughts, they stop. For them to appear again, there has to be energy.
For energy, no thoughts are needed. I can have energy in my system, and no thoughts.
Samyama is like that also. Maybe there is a difference in naming things? For me a thought is something that comes in words, while "energy" is something that is experienced as movement, or pressure for instance.
I am still not that aware to be aware of the witness, that is something that makes my head hurt.
The way I experience it to be, is that mind is a machine that creates thoughts based on the energy that drives it, and when there is no energy, nothing is produced.
As per witness, I don't know who or what that is, but if there is some 'me' that is individual, that is also something I imagine to be a kind of energetic presence, although with intelligence.
It operates in terms not of thoughts, but of "knowing" and "being". I remember a time when I was in college, and writing a test, and I just "knew" the answer, and I could doubt in universe before doubting the answer. The feeling of knowing was so strong. From that and few other experiences I concluded that there are things which are natural for us, and which are us, which we do when we are relaxed. And so I try to do that.
I do not know how to put your observation in my experience yet. I do not have such clear experiences as you and my energy body is far from being open and my mind still.
So maybe when I see more clearly, I will understand what you perceive as truth, but this is how I see it from where I'm standing.
This is a nice discussion, thank you.
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2013 : 05:47:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Choiceless choosing, kami. Letting go and acting with finesse and grace. The witness is no longer an object, but a presence dissolved in unity. Be still and flow, you know. The witness stage is only an intermediary stage before re-engaging with all aspects of life: inner and outer.
Take a step back, and then dive back in, but deeper this time. Enriched, enlivened, ecstatic. You dig? Witness cannot remain stagnant. Back into stillness, forward into living. Back and forth, back and forth.
As Steve Miller said: keep on rockin' me, baby.
Love.
Hmmm...
The witness has never been an object. If it has, it is not the witness but yet another mind construct.
The witness is not something that can be described to be either stagnant or dynamic. That is once again objectifying it. It is the subject, the self-aware "I am", not "I have". It just is.
When we fall in line with Life, there is no "choosing". Choosing always implies between this and that - where does that choice come from? Conditioning of course. If I choose not to drink, it is because buddhi views "drinking" to be destructive, bad, how it makes me feel, how society reacts to it, etc (all of which are completely valid, of course). But in everyone's path, there comes a time when drinking (or any other misdirected thought/action) simply goes away. When and how? When the vasana for drinking is first brought up through practices like DM and let go through practices like samyama (or spontaneously in other cases). Then there is no more choosing. The buddhi is still, there is no reasoning behind actions. Actions arising from "choosing" are very different than actions arising from the intuitive heart space - a mother jumping in front of a car to save her child doesn't "choose" to do so; there is no "should" or "what if" there. It just happens because it flows from a different space altogether when she temporarily catapulted out of the ego-mind - in that instance, she doesn't see herself to be separate from the child. Thus it is action that arises from intuitive "oneness" (although she may not do that for "other" children).. Yet, she would have previously deliberated obsessively about how to feed/clothe/choose activities for the same child, thoughts and actions arising from the mind-buddhi complex of the ego.
Yet, whether an action arises from conditioning or not, whether sinner or saint, the witness is always there. Whether one is aware or not, it is eternally present. Spiritual practices don't really create it, but make us still enough to become aware of it - the subject becoming aware of its own presence.
Stillness in action means there is no "doer". There is no-body making a choice. Life and actions simply flow through such a person, beyond the confines of the ego and its conditioning. Along the way however, actions arise from an increasing sense of peace as we lose self-doubt, the element that leads to obsessive deliberation. There is also growing intuition that causes us to know what to do (as Mykal says) that is for the good of all, not just ourselves. However, none of this "comes" from the witness - it is already complete and self-effulgent with no need to "do" anything.
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Edited by - kami on Oct 01 2013 06:41:33 AM |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2013 : 09:10:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
That is surrender to the flow--merging stillness with action. That is using the ego-voice as a tool and talent, rather than regarding the inner voice as a nuisance, an enemy, a disease to be gotten rid off.
This merging reminds me of “wu wei,” a Daoist expression used by Lao Zu. The pre-strategic void required for most efficacious action in the Book of Five Rings. Also, of the pre-Socratics like Heraclitus and Parmenides. Of course, I can relate to the notion of thinking’s disease, thought crime, and mental “illness.”
quote:
Even as I write this forum post, I heard the little voice say: "Ah, yes, this will be a good post. Too good not to share."
Mine tends to say something similar: “Too good to share freely.” It doesn’t sound like a little voice, though.
quote:
Sometimes the ego-voice turns into words that echo from my mouth and travel to the ear(s) of nearby listener(s). Sometimes not. Sometimes the I-witness decides not to turn thought-vibrations into auditory vibrations. That often automatic, effortless restraint is the presence of conscience, and that is the spontaneous reality of free will choice which is endowed in every individual on the planet. That choice of choosing from a fully engaged witness-perspective is a gift--a gift from the One that supersedes, surpasses, and constantly surprises all the rest of the Little Ones.
This is so beautifully put! It’s harder than ever for me to be small, especially since awakening from the darkness imprisoning my mind and heart. So sweet…to be frail and to admit it, if only for a moment.
quote:
Share, baby, share! The witness and the ego implore you...
Thank you so much for this kind opportunity.
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Edited by - Anima on Oct 01 2013 09:17:42 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2013 : 09:29:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mykal K
I am a bit confused now.
In my experience, if there is no energy "driving me", then there are no thoughts. For thoughts to exist in me, there has to be some energetic movement.Even when I think, if I retract energy from thoughts, they stop. For them to appear again, there has to be energy.
For energy, no thoughts are needed. I can have energy in my system, and no thoughts.
Samyama is like that also. Maybe there is a difference in naming things? For me a thought is something that comes in words, while "energy" is something that is experienced as movement, or pressure for instance.
A thought doesn't have to be verbal, or heard internally. A thought can be an image. A thought can be a taste. A thought can be any of the five senses/sense-objects (combined or experienced individually). Have you ever had a lucid dream in which you were so sure that everything in the dream was real, because the sensory data was being perceived as such? I've had many of those. I've also just "witnessed" in dreams where there was no "doer"...only an awareness of events and people, but not centered in a body or personality. It's kind of like a movie camera that is fully aware but impersonal.
The mind, in my experience, has many, many shades. Creative mind, cognitive mind, analytical mind, memory mind, imaginative mind, etc. What links all these modalities? Awareness. Awareness is the common thread that can't be removed.
Imagine a blank space, just empty and full of whiteness. Then imagine that you could create anything you wished in that blank space. How would you do it? If you playfully engage in this creative exercise, it might help you get a sense of the causality/energy/form sequence. For instance, if I want to create something in my imaginary void, I would first contemplate what essenses I want that environment to contain. I would want it to be harmonious, balanced, vibrant, cooperative, glowing, vast, diverse, and so on...(you get the point). These subtle essences can then begin to take form by means of energy (or vibration), then that energy-vibration could solidify as physical form.
Much like an architect has ideas of foundation, stability, structural integrity, durability, etc., so does God manifest the world--in my opinion. We are made in God's image--so like little micro-images, we have the option of co-creation, on a much smaller scale, of course. But going back to the architect metaphor...once these subtle ideas are marinating, then the architect will start drafting plans and images in his mind, and put these images onto paper or a computer, and there is energy in this transmission. Before energy, before ideas, there's just infinite stillness. Finally, the ideas and energy take form in some solid way. So, whether the ideas, energy, or form are present, the stillness will be. Uncontainable, uncontrollable, unknowable.
The main thing, for me, has been not trying too hard to figure all this metaphysical stuff out. I just live my life, and by the grace of God, I keep getting surrounded by wonderful people, and these surprises and simple miracles keep popping up. That's all that's necessary. Practice and live. Love and serve. Easily favor the mantra and allow it to refine. Pick up sutras and release them into serenity. Go out into the world and dance my dance with like-minded souls. Simple.
Your truth is your truth, and you can't read that in a book, or in a forum post, though such writings may inspire or reflect what's occurring inside. If those words don't resonate, discard them and stick to what does resonate.  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2013 : 10:10:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
When we fall in line with Life, there is no "choosing". Choosing always implies between this and that - where does that choice come from? Conditioning of course. If I choose not to drink, it is because buddhi views "drinking" to be destructive, bad, how it makes me feel, how society reacts to it, etc (all of which are completely valid, of course). But in everyone's path, there comes a time when drinking (or any other misdirected thought/action) simply goes away. When and how? When the vasana for drinking is first brought up through practices like DM and let go through practices like samyama (or spontaneously in other cases). Then there is no more choosing. The buddhi is still, there is no reasoning behind actions. Actions arising from "choosing" are very different than actions arising from the intuitive heart space - a mother jumping in front of a car to save her child doesn't "choose" to do so; there is no "should" or "what if" there. It just happens because it flows from a different space altogether when she temporarily catapulted out of the ego-mind - in that instance, she doesn't see herself to be separate from the child. Thus it is action that arises from intuitive "oneness" (although she may not do that for "other" children).. Yet, she would have previously deliberated obsessively about how to feed/clothe/choose activities for the same child, thoughts and actions arising from the mind-buddhi complex of the ego.
Yet, whether an action arises from conditioning or not, whether sinner or saint, the witness is always there. Whether one is aware or not, it is eternally present. Spiritual practices don't really create it, but make us still enough to become aware of it - the subject becoming aware of its own presence.
Stillness in action means there is no "doer". There is no-body making a choice. Life and actions simply flow through such a person, beyond the confines of the ego and its conditioning. Along the way however, actions arise from an increasing sense of peace as we lose self-doubt, the element that leads to obsessive deliberation. There is also growing intuition that causes us to know what to do (as Mykal says) that is for the good of all, not just ourselves. However, none of this "comes" from the witness - it is already complete and self-effulgent with no need to "do" anything.
Spoken like a true master. I'll just lap up those words like a dog drinking water from his bowl. And then maybe, from time to time, you can throw me a treat so I can leap upward and soar through the air until I chomp on the treat in mid-flight and land softly on my dog paws. And the whole time, there was no doer; there was no treat-thrower or treat-retriever--there was only the One of our doggie-master unity. And will you please pet me as I wag my tail and hang my tongue from my mouth with such sincere and loyal obedience? 
LOL. Kidding, kidding. Really, I very much resonate with "undoing the doer"...thank you for dancing with me in this verbal exploration. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2013 : 10:31:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anima Deorum
This merging reminds me of “wu wei,” a Daoist expression used by Lao Zu. The pre-strategic void required for most efficacious action in the Book of Five Rings. Also, of the pre-Socratics like Heraclitus and Parmenides. Of course, I can relate to the notion of thinking’s disease, thought crime, and mental “illness.”
You have a great way of blending East and West in your comments. Very refreshing to see in these forums, which often tend to gravitate and favor the East--naturally, since yoga originates from India. But still, these spiritual principles are global and steeped in history around the world.
quote:
Mine tends to say something similar: “Too good to share freely.” It doesn’t sound like a little voice, though.
Ahhh...pride of authorship. You just gotta give it away, my man. Forsake recognition and compensation and just let the craft unwind without any need for notoriety. If you're trying to earn a salary from writing, it's a different story, I guess, but these forums are just free playtime for those who like to banter on in silly and profound ways.
quote:
This is so beautifully put! It’s harder than ever for me to be small, especially since awakening from the darkness imprisoning my mind and heart. So sweet…to be frail and to admit it, if only for a moment.
Freedom. |
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The voice inside my head
