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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 21 2013 : 03:48:25 AM
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Hello everyone,
[This is a long post.. The main questions are repeated in the last sentences of the post.]
Yogani mentions two important components that are cultivated in AYP practices: silence and energy, the ecstatic component.
Similarly, in other traditions this is referred to as Shiva/Shakti; Yang/Yin; Krishna/Radha; Purusha/Prakriti etc.
Some schools emphasize the energetic component. Other schools emphasize the silent component / awareness. It seems that those emphasizing the awareness component are often mostly male traditions (eg. Buddhist monasteries of monks). Perhaps it has been found difficult to work constructively with the energetic component especially for the male population of practitioners.
It appears here that
(1) (some of the) schools that work directly with the energetic component, strive towards purification and merging with the Infinite by continuously expanding one’s capacity to channel increased energy flows.
(2) (some of the) schools that work through the awareness channel and avoiding the energy channel altogether (at least in intentional practices), also have all kinds of codes of conducts to limit the energy component, perhaps consciously or unconsciously reducing it towards the zero point (with extended fasting, lack of sleep, and avoiding anything that may somewhat stimulate energy, even not allowing to express oneself artistically, especially dance/singing). I am aware mostly of Theravada Buddhist schools doing this, yet quite a part of the Hindu traditions also go on the way of extreme tapasya.
All of this is introduction to the questions I am coming to now:
Can there be enlightenment without the ecstatic component?
Does one have to choose between one of the two extreme approaches (maximizing energy conductivity towards infinity versus merging at the zero point (Emptiness?))? Or can one be “average” in terms of energy conductivity and also come to liberation/enlightenment?
Perhaps there is an “average” path in terms of energy, that is striving towards perfect balance at any level of energy?
In that case, how important is cultivation of energy really? Which practices will be emphasized most on a path that is focused on internal balance (at whichever point of energy conductivity the balance may be found)?
Is it really so that life force within an individual is limited (many traditions claim that one’s ojas (life force) and if it has been emitted too often, spiritual progress cannot be made anymore or in any case it will be difficult to “reach” enlightenment)?
In one of his books on Tantra, I read that Osho goes against this view, emphasizing abundance and the flow of energy. If energy flows out, it will come back flowing in faster also.
Apart from his writing all other spiritual teachers I have encountered, emphasize the opposite (limited life force and importance of brahmacharya; some saying to maintain it strictly, some being more tolerant/loose in the implementation of brahmacharya; every once in a while one may release without loss of continuity of spiritual progress).
{A little note on potential relevance/implication of this question and its answer:
With all information available, many contradicting and confusing suggestions may be recognized if one is not limiting oneself to one particular source of teachings. Understanding where each school/path is coming from, helps us understand what matters to us at the times we are in doubt / finding our way.
Apart from enhanced understanding on the workings of different paths, it may also help practioners choose which path may be more or less feasible for them and just how relevant or less relevant some recommendations in one path are to them in particular given their situation and choice of path.
If it is truly so that energetic conductivity is a beautiful part of the path (for ecstatic feelings making the path enjoyable), but not essential to realization, then..
To some any path is available (eg. a young person full of vitality, yet not afraid to do extreme tapasya could choose any “extreme” or “intermediary” path). To others (for instance people coming at a very old age or with severe illness), few paths may be available (the paths not requiring energy cultivation practices), while there is no inadequacy to be successful on the path of yoga.
Understanding the energetic component of a particular school of teaching may help realize whether it is suitable to us. Also, whichever path one chooses, one may understand recommendations regarding energy cultivation / austerities in different schools better. }
As this is somewhat a long post, let me repeat the two main questions:
“Can there be enlightenment without the ecstatic component?” and
“How important is cultivation of energy really if one’s goal is liberation/union?”
In light of the little theory made above (Merging at infinity, zero or in between?)..
Thank you for sharing insights..
Omsat |
Edited by - Omsat on Sep 25 2013 01:00:56 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2013 : 11:34:33 AM
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Hi Omsat,
It depends upon how you define "liberation". One can reach full clarity of "local mind" without any energy practices. At that "state", one is past what many would call the "ego". Beyond being caught up in the everyday fears and issues. One is able to look at everything with an openness to the situation and not have an auto response to some past memory. The Jed McKenna books are a very good example of this state.
But, if you wish to go beyond that level, one must use some sort of energy component.
Best wishes. |
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Arman
Australia
47 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2013 : 3:49:54 PM
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Hi Omstat
Thanks for your thought provoking and well written post. It was a pleasure to read. Unfortunately I can't organize my thoughts too well on this subject because terms like liberation and enlightenment tend to confuse my mental processing because I find them difficult to fathom as a state to reach rather then a continuing process.
To my mind, when one is in an ego-less state without energy practices; although it can be considered being 'enlightened', it is different to the subtleties experienced with an awakened energetic body. I think when working with energy, the state experienced seems to be closer to complete 'union' because of the direct fathoming and response of/from the infinite. My bias however probably stems from my leaning towards a vedantic paradigm in which complete unification with the infinite is ideal. It strikes me to ask, in the grand scheme of things, what is the difference in the end whether one takes one path or the other? However, why not use our latent energies if we can manage them in a way where it won't hinder us? Why is it here if not for our evolution?
By the way, aren't these energies naturally evoked through mindfulness, dedication and love? I'm asking because I find it hard to imagine that anyone on such a path could completely avoid energy awakenings altogether. |
Edited by - Arman on Sep 21 2013 7:00:09 PM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2013 : 6:45:57 PM
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Hi Omsat,
Arman's response is simply beautiful, and profound in its beauty. Thank you Arman. 
From my perspective, it is not whether it is important, but whether it is focused on.
As Arman says, energy activation is really inevitable in pretty much any path. The greatest stimulus for Shakti is Shiva - inner silence. Even if one has never heard the word "energy" but cultivates inner silence (or has inherent inner silence), there is bound to be ecstatic energy arising sooner or later. But the opposite is not necessarily true in that although complete energetic activation can and does eventually lead to inner silence, often the energy (without simultaneous cultivation of inner silence) can be a distraction or troublesome causing physical and mental disturbances in extreme cases. It is far easier to get caught in energetic phenomena (compounded by mind stories about them) than inner silence.
Paths only differ in what is emphasized, IMO. Jed McKenna may simply not choose to get caught up in or discuss energy stuff, as do many other teachers. But if you really asked them, they might tell you about their (often spectacular) energetic experiences. Eventually, all paths will lead to an inward turning to ask, "Who is this that experiences this (energy or silence)."
My two cents.
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2013 : 10:49:03 PM
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Hi Kami, Arman and Jeff
Thank you for replying to the query; all of your posts are giving insight. I would like to bring them together here and perhaps with ongoing discussion we can make a synthesis.
Jeff: At an intuitive level, I resonate with your answer, that points towards different levels of attainment of different spiritual teachers (as they too are practitioners). This would suggest that different teachings may lead to different results, even if the “goal” of any of the teachings were “reached”.
Somehow when I think of masters like Paramahamsa Yogananda, Babaji, Aurobindo, Jesus Christ and I would like to add yogani to this list; or I think of some other wonderful teachers it feels that their realization is somewhat of another inspired level of experience. In all of them I feel silence, wisdom, something wonderful (see quote of Kami infra). Yet some names bring in my being something of another caliber that other names could not, however much I love them too.
I learn plenty from the latter teachers and they are very helpful on my path; I respect them tremendously. Yet the former names bring a feeling in here towards something beyond what the latter teach. I think it relates to the energetic component of their being.
Arman: You have beautifully expressed a feeling for this: quote:
“… it is different to the subtleties experienced with an awakened energetic body… when working with energy, the state experienced seems to be closer to complete 'union' because of the direct fathoming and response of/from the infinite.”
Now, if all there is to it, is a personal feeling, it would not matter so much. It would just be a matter of preference of teachings/teachers, a personal inclination, leading to the same as another inclination would. “All paths lead to That. And That is the same in all paths. Or, as Kami nicely verbalizes it: quote:
“Eventually, all paths will lead to an inward turning to ask, "Who is this that experiences this (energy or silence).
[quote]Originally posted by kami"
Thank you for pointing towards the oneness of paths; it is wonderful to see what they all share, while some of us are also wondering whether there may be differences apart from that oneness of realization..
If, as Jeff suggests, there is something beyond certain teachings that can be found in other teachings, then it does matter which path one chooses.
Now, apart from what one may be drawn to and be most inspired by, I wonder about one’s real(istic) potential as a basis to make one’s choice. Many of the most inspired teachers love to delight us about our infinite potential and that we maybe even all have it equally (John Wilder surely does  ). Yet, I also feel that these teachers somehow have started with exquisite “preliminaries” compared to the most of us. And, while it is true and inspiring to reach out beyond, to infuse our life with bhakti for something beyond, to some degree that keeps us inspired and reach out for the highest in us, it seems wise to not be blind for differences that may do matter. Or is it just another trap of the mind?
It seems reasonable to state that it takes a lot of work, dedication and talent, and that it helps to have the best cards possible at a young age to become an exceptional, say artistic gymnast.
And yes, if we all train with good teachers and love artistic gymnastics, we can all become amazing gymnasts, radiating strength, beauty and balance. Yet, we also know that some will excel more at one domain of the art, and others at another. And, that some will just be beyond what all others could ever achieve realistically in this lifetime. And that those who have started at a young age are much more likely to excel than those who become inspired later in their life. Or not? 
Perhaps the analogy is not appropriate with spiritual realization? Then this turns into whether there is something as spiritual progress/transformation or not.
Many wonderful teachers suggest this, emphasizing that there is no “attaining” only “realizing what already is”.
This is beautiful to say and believe, yet there is doubt deep down here about the truth of it. Perhaps it is just because the mind loves to compare. Some Saints are called “Great Ones”, not all.. Or perhaps something deep within knows something and longs for it, yet this body-mind is afraid it cannot reach there and looks to settle and choose the more “attainable” spiritual “level”.
Jeff: I have seen in other posts of yours talking about levels of attainment. Would you be willing to bring this explanation here also as this is what your post here is referring to. And, if you find it appropriate, would you point where the teachings of, say, Jed McKenna would bring one if successfully endeavoured on the list of "levels"? Then perhaps map towards higher teachings/teachers, as per your understanding (based on experience? Belief? Intuition? Visions?)?
Would you tend to say also, that one may be wiser to choose one path over another based on a perception of limitedness of capacity or on another basis (which?)?
Alternate views (to different level attainments on different paths) are welcome also.. Please help us understand the basis of your perspective if you are clear about it (is your perspective based on a formal source, on personal experience, on an intuition, etc.).
Thank you all for participating and enlightening..
Omsat
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Edited by - Omsat on Sep 24 2013 11:46:10 PM |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2013 : 05:34:49 AM
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Hi Arman and everyone,
quote:
Originally posted by Arman
Thanks for your thought provoking and well written post.
Thank you; same applies to your post..
quote:
It strikes me to ask, in the grand scheme of things, what is the difference in the end whether one takes one path or the other?
In the grand scheme of things, I have no idea
Yet, on a more practical level, I see ways in which it may matter, some of which may also be clear towards the end of this post.
The answer may depend on whether "the end" is the same in all paths or not and on one's capacity and preference to undertake different paths.
quote:
However, why not use our latent energies if we can manage them in a way where it won't hinder us? Why is it here if not for our evolution?
I am completely in favour of using latent energies to the best of our capacities for our highest spiritual unfoldment.
The question that arose here is to which extent this would be a necessity if all paths lead indeed to the same realization and do not differ "in the grand scheme of things".
Perhaps it is mostly a matter of compassion, being able to "be" or serve in more grandiose way.
Or perhaps it is mostly a matter of reaching higher and radiating greater joy.
If there is no identification with the body and its expressions, perhaps this does not matter; yet this body and its expressions is part of the whole and influences the whole also to some extent.
quote:
By the way, aren't these energies naturally evoked through mindfulness, dedication and love? I'm asking because I find it hard to imagine that anyone on such a path could completely avoid energy awakenings altogether.
It seems likely to me also indeed that beautiful energy awakenings are part of most any path. The extent to which and the importance of which may be different in alternative paths.
I have also heard different opinions:
That one may have "realized", without having cultivated virtues of love and compassion.
Perhaps this is one of the beyonds that Jeff is talking about.
In "The Secrets of Wilder", John seems to reveal also even quite early on his journey that a major motivation for cultivating energy is to be of greater help to the whole of existence. He is already very aware at this point that his being is much beyond his own body and its expressions, perhaps he is even already "realized" here, yet reaches out for higher levels of attainment to fulfill a greater dharma that he feels he has come to fulfill in this lifetime.
Thank you for your post..
Omsat |
Edited by - Omsat on Sep 22 2013 07:27:22 AM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2013 : 08:34:07 AM
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Hi Omsat,
Just sharing a few observations here:
- awakening is a subjective thing. It is futile and meaningless to try to classify say, where Jed McKenna is. We all write and post here on the forums - is it possible for me to judge where someone else is based on what they post?
- true awakening is that which encompasses every aspect of one's life. There cannot be any discordance (as in lack of love and compassion, for example), as discussed here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=13362
- it is absolutely not true that "training" from a young age gets one to awaken with any more certainty than one that is called to the path much later. It all depends on our unique matrix of conditioning carried over from previous lifetimes. Often, training in the spiritual path from a young age makes one a good trainee, not enlightened. Why? Because there is a subtle yet strong identification as that trainee or seeker. One could have trained under the greatest masters and still remain entrapped within the confines of the separate self. There is a story that a middle-aged gentleman and long-time disciple of Ramana Maharshi complained to him that he had been practicing for 30 years without fruit, and if the master could give him some advice. The Maharshi said, keep practicing for another 30 years; it is bound to happen. Yet, there were disciples like Papaji - one glance from Maharshi was enough, because he was ripe.
So in this, the spiritual path is different than any other. One can get totally caught up in energy phenomena, powers, astral stuff, meeting divine beings, light transmissions, classifications, "creating worlds", building light bodies, etc for an entire lifetime - and yet remain unawakened, tightly bound as the separate ego self.
- realization is not a mental or intellectual thing. Intellectual understanding of "I am Brahman" is not the real deal. Self-realization is beyond all mental and intellectual gymnastics. It is pure subjectivity that goes beyond energy, silence, siddhis, classifications, etc.
- what does one do after awakening? Chop wood and carry water, as the Zen saying goes. One's dharma is fulfilled by simply living and doing one does. The "I can change the world because I'm awakened" attitude is, paradoxically, an unawakened perspective, since the "I" is still very much present. Dharma is not about doing great things, it is about doing what one is meant to do, that automatically becomes great in its simplicity and perfection.
Two more cents.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2013 : 11:23:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Omsat
...
Jeff: I have seen in other posts of yours talking about levels of attainment. Would you be willing to bring this explanation here also as this is what your post here is referring to. And, if you find it appropriate, would you point where the teachings of, say, Jed McKenna would bring one if successfully endeavoured on the list of "levels"? Then perhaps map towards higher teachings/teachers, as per your understanding (based on experience? Belief? Intuition? Visions?)?
Would you tend to say also, that one may be wiser to choose one path over another based on a perception of limitedness of capacity or on another basis (which?)?
Hi Omsat,
Regarding, my perspective on the stages of progression, I have posted it previously here (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=12477). The stages and descriptions are based on my personal experience and some time spent with "masters" of various traditions that I trust completely.
I believe that while all paths sort of head up the same mountain, different paths can be more appropriate/helpful for one's spiritual "advancement" then others. Rather than just the teachings, it is how we resonate with teachings and teachers. Most importantly, it is what we find when we "go inside". As Yogani always says, the "guru" is in you, to that I would add "all of creation can also be found in you".
Only the mental limits that you place on yourself stop you from noticing it all. There are such things as a Christ and a Buddha. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2013 : 3:28:09 PM
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"Only the mental limits that you place on yourself stop you from noticing it all. There are such things as a Christ and a Buddha"
Only for some people. Others will put a completely different word in place of those, and some will be a concept or "anti-concept" instead, making it seem as if they don't exist. Words... |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2013 : 02:37:59 AM
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Hi Kami,
quote:
Dharma is (...) about doing what one is meant to do, that automatically becomes great in its simplicity and perfection.
Very wise and beautiful
It's always good to have someone pointing in another direction and put a few things in perspective. Thank you for being that one here
Several of the points you made are addressed here hoping this will bring clarity about some of the things I said in previous posts and foster a fruitful discussion.
Is Yoga a Science?
If so, this implies there are verifiable causes and effects (tangible and intangible).
Perhaps some practitioners (and especially trusted teachers like yogani) are more apt than others at verifying effects that are intangible for many. There are many reasons to believe this is so. Several masters have shown their capability repeatedly and even sufficiently systematically to be called valid scientifically/experimentally. (For instance regarding the effects of sound vibrations; cause: DM; effects noticeable on many levels, some tangible for most, some tangible for less and thus intangible for many.)
One practicing Yoga Science may be more or less successful depending on many factors. Call these altogether spiritual ripeness or maturity if you will. Calling it ripeness helps to surrender, but helps less in understanding the causes and effects of the practices.
In any aspect of life some do better with less effort. Usually more (qualitative) dedicated practice yields more than little dedication and practice. When discussing choice of practices, the latter (about practices yielding results) is more important than the former (about the individual who did not need practice). Certain practices do better than others also we may assume.
If not, why are the practices here called “Advanced”? Is there no implicit assumption here that practicing the set of practices in AYP (causes) may be more rewarding (effects) than certain other sets of practices for a significant group of yoga practitioners?
When observing groups of practitioners, we would not tend to make any definite prediction about one individual practitioner; yet we may notice effects at play for the large group that is practicing certain types of practices.
This is what the topic is intended to be about.
Not about comparing individuals per se; even not individual teachers. Certain teachers have a background of a certain class of practices. Other teachers practiced quite different methods. We may observe and discuss whether the type of methods they were inclined to practice yielded different results or not.
Some names have been written because they are well-known to many readers and somehow may give a feeling of representing a certain kind of practices.
As such, the names give a glimpse of the causes and effects of the practices.
More clarity on these causes and effects can help practitioners make a well-informed choice. Once in a while we seek to understand in a more tangible/logical way than listening to the voice of “inner guru”. (Luckily, on this forum we will often be reminded of the latter .)
This (teacher names used as representions of teachings and their effects) was not well expressed in the previous posts. Thank you for helping point this out Kami and thereby bringing more clarity on the initial questions and their purpose.
Omsat
PS1:
quote:
“What does one do after awakening?”
Some chop wood. Some go out and start telling others how it happened for them because it changed their world upside down.. Depending on how it happened (through practices or not), they may learn and teach hoping others will realize as they did. So, for quite a few enlightened beings, the zen phrase applies less in terms of surface level activity..
PS2:
Not doing practices is a path also with some successful cases (you mentioned Papaji; and there are more). Not my chosen path now, hence the queries..
No harm in putting practices in perspective, which you did elegantly. That said, back to practices now
quote:
Originally posted by kami
Hi Omsat,
Just sharing a few observations here:
- awakening is a subjective thing. It is futile and meaningless to try to classify say, where Jed McKenna is. We all write and post here on the forums - is it possible for me to judge where someone else is based on what they post?
- true awakening is that which encompasses every aspect of one's life. There cannot be any discordance (as in lack of love and compassion, for example), as discussed here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=13362
- it is absolutely not true that "training" from a young age gets one to awaken with any more certainty than one that is called to the path much later. It all depends on our unique matrix of conditioning carried over from previous lifetimes. Often, training in the spiritual path from a young age makes one a good trainee, not enlightened. Why? Because there is a subtle yet strong identification as that trainee or seeker. One could have trained under the greatest masters and still remain entrapped within the confines of the separate self. There is a story that a middle-aged gentleman and long-time disciple of Ramana Maharshi complained to him that he had been practicing for 30 years without fruit, and if the master could give him some advice. The Maharshi said, keep practicing for another 30 years; it is bound to happen. Yet, there were disciples like Papaji - one glance from Maharshi was enough, because he was ripe.
So in this, the spiritual path is different than any other. One can get totally caught up in energy phenomena, powers, astral stuff, meeting divine beings, light transmissions, classifications, "creating worlds", building light bodies, etc for an entire lifetime - and yet remain unawakened, tightly bound as the separate ego self.
- realization is not a mental or intellectual thing. Intellectual understanding of "I am Brahman" is not the real deal. Self-realization is beyond all mental and intellectual gymnastics. It is pure subjectivity that goes beyond energy, silence, siddhis, classifications, etc.
- what does one do after awakening? Chop wood and carry water, as the Zen saying goes. One's dharma is fulfilled by simply living and doing one does. The "I can change the world because I'm awakened" attitude is, paradoxically, an unawakened perspective, since the "I" is still very much present. Dharma is not about doing great things, it is about doing what one is meant to do, that automatically becomes great in its simplicity and perfection.
Two more cents.
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Edited by - Omsat on Sep 23 2013 05:26:55 AM |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2013 : 06:02:21 AM
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Hi Jeff and all,
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Omsat,
Regarding, my perspective on the stages of progression, I have posted it previously here (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=12477). The stages and descriptions are based on my personal experience and some time spent with "masters" of various traditions that I trust completely.
I believe that while all paths sort of head up the same mountain, different paths can be more appropriate/helpful for one's spiritual "advancement" then others. Rather than just the teachings, it is how we resonate with teachings and teachers. Most importantly, it is what we find when we "go inside". As Yogani always says, the "guru" is in you, to that I would add "all of creation can also be found in you".
Only the mental limits that you place on yourself stop you from noticing it all. There are such things as a Christ and a Buddha.
Thank you for referring to the post and your other words of advice.
At level 7, you wrote quote:
"Many stop here and declare victory."
In your first post on this topic, you wrote “ quote:
if you wish to go beyond that level, one must use some sort of energy component.”
Just to be fully clear: Did you mean from level 8 onwards?
In your latest post you wrote quote:
"all paths sort of head up the same mountain".
Did you mean all paths then lead to the highest level of attainment eventually?
Do you also mean, all paths sooner or later bring in the energetic component then?
For, if (1) there are levels of attainment (versions of liberation that may differ); and (2) if one needs energy cultivation to "reach" beyond a certain definition of liberation (that implies a certain level of attainment); and (3) if all paths mount up the same; then (4) all paths must somehow be involved with energy cultivation?
Could you clarify what you had in mind in the first post (that mentioned levels of realization and definitions of liberation) versus the all paths mounting up to the same eventually in your latest post?
It would be nice to have more people chime in on their perspectives of the roadmap you wrote (which we could call EFFECTS of practices) and link it with a discussion of the practices that are known to create (some of) these effects (this would be a discussion of the CAUSES).
I would be interested to see to which extent reported effects of practices are similar across types of practices (i.e. have roadmaps like yours from groups of practitioners engaged in different practices; eg. scaling in terms of energy based or not) and then analyze the causes. Pretty much what yogani did, yet at a larger scale and having large groups of people not directly engaged in energetic cultivation.
In the meantime, it will be wonderful if individuals here can report on their experiences on this subject.
Thank you.
Omsat |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2013 : 08:38:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Omsat
Hi Jeff and all,]
...
Thank you for referring to the post and your other words of advice.
At level 7, you wrote quote:
"Many stop here and declare victory."
In your first post on this topic, you wrote “ quote:
if you wish to go beyond that level, one must use some sort of energy component.”
Just to be fully clear: Did you mean from level 8 onwards?
In your latest post you wrote quote:
"all paths sort of head up the same mountain".
Did you mean all paths then lead to the highest level of attainment eventually?
Do you also mean, all paths sooner or later bring in the energetic component then?
For, if (1) there are levels of attainment (versions of liberation that may differ); and (2) if one needs energy cultivation to "reach" beyond a certain definition of liberation (that implies a certain level of attainment); and (3) if all paths mount up the same; then (4) all paths must somehow be involved with energy cultivation?
Could you clarify what you had in mind in the first post (that mentioned levels of realization and definitions of liberation) versus the all paths mounting up to the same eventually in your latest post?
It would be nice to have more people chime in on their perspectives of the roadmap you wrote (which we could call EFFECTS of practices) and link it with a discussion of the practices that are known to create (some of) these effects (this would be a discussion of the CAUSES).
I would be interested to see to which extent reported effects of practices are similar across types of practices (i.e. have roadmaps like yours from groups of practitioners engaged in different practices; eg. scaling in terms of energy based or not) and then analyze the causes. Pretty much what yogani did, yet at a larger scale and having large groups of people not directly engaged in energetic cultivation.
...
Hi Omsat,
Responding to your above questions...
Yes, to realize level 8, one must add energy/light to the equation. It requires "kundalini" or some other similar energetic aspect.
No, I did not mean to say that all paths are equal (and not all path use energy practices). In the mountain analogy, some paths are better at walking and some are better at climbing sheer rock faces. If one is on a walking path it is great on open ground, but if you don't shift or add practices it will take a lot of lifetimes to get up that rock face.
The roadmap from the original post was also posted on TaoBums (very broad range of traditions). Both there and here, there no real disagreement with my list.
Also, I agree that your cross practices for different levels idea would be very interesting. I have recently tried to start such a thread on TaoBums, but it has become a little derailed.
Finally, having a universal "system" would be great, but who would be the arbiter of what is best? Also, you may believe you are at level 9, while I would think that you are only at level 5. If you happen to know, 3 or 4 level 12s that are willing to work on it for us, it would be easy... Know a Buddha or two...?  |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2013 : 09:46:11 AM
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Hi again Jeff
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Omsat,
Responding to your above questions...
Yes, to realize level 8, one must add energy/light to the equation. It requires "kundalini" or some other similar energetic aspect.
No, I did not mean to say that all paths are equal (and not all path use energy practices). In the mountain analogy, some paths are better at walking and some are better at climbing sheer rock faces. If one is on a walking path it is great on open ground, but if you don't shift or add practices it will take a lot of lifetimes to get up that rock face.
The roadmap from the original post was also posted on TaoBums (very broad range of traditions). Both there and here, there no real disagreement with my list.
Also, I agree that your cross practices for different levels idea would be very interesting. I have recently tried to start such a thread on TaoBums, but it has become a little derailed.
Finally, having a universal "system" would be great, but who would be the arbiter of what is best? Also, you may believe you are at level 9, while I would think that you are only at level 5. If you happen to know, 3 or 4 level 12s that are willing to work on it for us, it would be easy... Know a Buddha or two...?
Thanks for clarifying and adding on..
Just to be clear again (as it is so easy to read words through one's coloured (or troubled? ) glasses) regarding "not all paths are equal" and "all paths mount to the same":
Did you mean that not all paths are equal in terms of the effectiveness of their practices (speed and appropriateness aka climbing up the rock faces)), but that one who has realized through any of the paths has realized the same? Or do you mean that the realization itself can be different also?
Or, differently put, do you see difference in the paths only in terms of effectiveness for practitioners, or also in terms of the final goal of the path ("the" realization vs "one of the" realizations)?
Sorry to be slow..
Thanks again..
Omsat |
Edited by - Omsat on Sep 23 2013 10:39:24 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2013 : 11:04:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Omsat
Hi again Jeff
Thanks for clarifying and adding on..
Just to be clear again (as it is so easy to read words through one's coloured (or troubled? ) glasses) regarding "not all paths are equal" and "all paths mount to the same":
Did you mean that not all paths are equal in terms of the effectiveness of their practices (speed and appropriateness aka climbing up the rock faces)), but that one who has realized through any of the paths has realized the same? Or do you mean that the realization itself can be different also?
Or, differently put, do you see difference in the paths only in terms of effectiveness for practitioners, or also in terms of the final goal of the path ("the" realization vs "one of the" realizations)?
Sorry to be slow..
Thanks again..
Omsat
Hi Omsat,
No problem at all. I may have been a little vague in my choice of words. Ultimately, I believe that all roads lead to the same mountain top, but not all paths lead to the same place (or top). As one reaches higher levels of "clarity", they have a greater ability to effect "reality" and the perception of it. In some ways you are able to define/create an endpoint for yourself and sort of "lock" into it for a long time. Intent becomes critical so that you don't declare victory to early. This is the reason that Buddha created the concept of the "vow". To create a deep subconscious "intent" to help carry you past cool stages (like becoming a Taoist "immortal" or super siddhis guru).
So, maybe a question for you is... What is your goal? What does enlightenment mean to you? |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2013 : 11:36:42 PM
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Hi Jeff,
Thank you for further clarifying.
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Ultimately, I believe that all roads lead to the same mountain top, but not all paths lead to the same place (or top).
Let me paraphrase the way I understood your words; please correct if you meant something different:
The way you see it all spiritual paths are for climbing the same mountain but along the way we like to experience some different sceneries that make the mountain look very different. Some sides of the mountain have special pink lotus flowers, other sides of the mountain have white flowers and angels, yet other parts have other characteristics. Depending on the side of the mountain we are inclined to climb (because we like pink flowers or white angels or something else) we may call the top "the pink lotus top" or "the white angelic peak" or another name. But once at the top, everyone is actually experiencing the same top, only recalling a different journey and telling their personal story. All agree it's wonderful up here at the peak and would not want to go down anymore. But the way they got up here is different for all, hence the multitude of paths/journeys. Only those who have not reached the top yet, think somehow they are climbing a different mountain than their companions on the other side. But that is because the scenery on the way looks so different. Once at the top, all of that does not matter anymore and all can see they have reached the top, that one same wonderful peak; they just enjoy dinner altogether after having chopped the wood for a beautiful nighttime fire that keeps all warm and cozzy.
quote:
As one reaches higher levels of "clarity", they have a greater ability to effect "reality" and the perception of it. In some ways you are able to define/create an endpoint for yourself and sort of "lock" into it for a long time. Intent becomes critical so that you don't declare victory to early.
The definition of that top (whether we call it Liberation, Moksha, Emptiness, Realization, Awakening, Merging or whichever other name we may favour) matters only so that we are not confused about having reached the top when we are in fact still under it and should still be climbing to make it. In fact all these words mean exactly the same, even though subjectively we may feel them to be different.
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
So, maybe a question for you is... What is your goal? What does enlightenment mean to you?
If they are all the same, the "goal" is Liberation, Moksha, 24/7 pure bliss consciousness, Emptiness, Realization, Awakening, Merging, Oneness, Love, Truth, Satchidananda, Balance, God, Krishna, Buddha, etc.
If they are all the same, it matters little how we call It, does it? It's very appealing to me that all religions, all paths lead to the same. My heart opens at the thought of it. It gives a feeling of oneness, compassion and peace with positive effects in daily life.
If they are not all the same, I'm interested to know more about the dynamics of the paths and a glimpse of whether one of the words implies the other while following my inner guide in the process, letting Universe carry me where it will and keep some groundedness of guidance from a trusted open source like aypsite.
As I cannot say that I have come to the point of any of these concepts, I'm not in a place to know whether they are the same or not, leave alone to say whether one implies the other or not. So, I am open to differing ideas on this subject while longing to know the truth about all of it.
The name I chose on this forum perhaps gives a good clue of the way I may be tempted to call my highest goal: Truth. I've been longing for this since early childhood, though the approach to find it has been quite different before.
Thank you for asking this powerful question.
Omsat
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Edited by - Omsat on Sep 24 2013 12:14:55 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2013 : 10:16:39 AM
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Hi Omsat,
Thanks for the discussion. We have reached the point where the points are getting very fine.
One additional fine point that I think is important, anyone who has actually reached the top of the mountain, can now see all of the paths that lead to the top. They are beyond paths and can easily explain "cross paths". If they can only describe "their path", or their answer, it is very unlikely they have reached the top of the mountain.
Regarding your list of word descriptions and those who say they are at of the top of the mountain, I personally do not worry about it. No need to compare or try to judge others, just "go inside" and find out for yourself. |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2013 : 12:23:49 AM
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Thank you Jeff..
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Omsat,
Thanks for the discussion. We have reached the point where the points are getting very fine.
One additional fine point that I think is important, anyone who has actually reached the top of the mountain, can now see all of the paths that lead to the top. They are beyond paths and can easily explain "cross paths". If they can only describe "their path", or their answer, it is very unlikely they have reached the top of the mountain.
Regarding your list of word descriptions and those who say they are at of the top of the mountain, I personally do not worry about it. No need to compare or try to judge others, just "go inside" and find out for yourself.
Going inside and finding out for ourselves..
Eventually, that's the only answer..
The intellect may not give definite answers here.
Given that, the discussion has been very fruitful with renewed Ishta clarity here. Thank you for that question, Jeff.
Thank you Kami and Arman for your wise and beautiful sharings 
Omsat
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Edited by - Omsat on Sep 25 2013 12:35:30 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2013 : 3:42:30 PM
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Very interesting discussion. Thank you for your questions Omsat and the simple beautiful way of expressing yourself and thank you Jeff and Kami and others for your insights.
Sey |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2013 : 8:45:33 PM
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Thank you for the kind words, Sey
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Very interesting discussion. Thank you for your questions Omsat and the simple beautiful way of expressing yourself and thank you Jeff and Kami and others for your insights.
Sey
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2013 : 2:30:58 PM
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Namaste Folks,
Wow, many wonderful replies have been made in this fine discussion and I am almost at a loss, as how to add anything further or contribute anything useful or worthwhile, within this intriguing thread. But I can perhaps only color this commentary with my own perspective and it is in total harmony with many others, already presented and freely shared, herein. And not to further any mental gymnastics or circular logic, I feel drawn to play within this exchange and concur in my own particular way.
When the indwelling witness or the I-thought, keenly observes this play of energy and this cosmic dance, as it rises and expands in shimmering effulgence, thus perceiving of itself unfolding into full bloom, endlessly... thus, the compression of the ego is incrementally dissipated. Or when more sudden cultivation of higher frequency, internal energy releases, the watcher is shattered and is left as so much cosmic dust, scattered across infinity. 
Somehow or other, cloaked within ineffability, the Sacred emanations from the Bindu, crystallize into a diamond-like effulgence, attracting the lens of the impartial witness to it's own miraculous reality, as it rises and blooms exponentially. When mind becomes wholly still, there exists no concrete difference between subject and object, Brahman/God and Self. The doing and the doer are the very same expression and there is no self to hold onto any defined lines of separation, which draws any distinction between this and that.
Thus, Self is drawn gently and sequentially or instantly and explosively, into an immeasurably deep fulcrum of infinite silence. Here there remains an indescribable knowing, effortlessly poised within this deep quietude... but it does not exist within the dichotomy of any subject in juxtaposition with any quantifiable object. Rather, it exists on it's own terms. It is what it is. Such an epiphany is bliss itself.
When I am in contemplative modality and prone to measuring this and that, I see self as a triune phenomenon, a view that is held within many religions and spiritual traditions. I term them as: Iso-self, Omni-self and Zero-self. This is echoed in Christianity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Within Indian thought this is shown as Paramatman,. Jivatman and Anatman... but however we conceive of these states, there is only one. All is Brahman/God and any form of self is essentially impermanent and an illusory membrane of separation, betwixt subject and object.
Ishvara/God sparkles and radiates a Divine light and pulses an Omnipotent vibration, whether the relative self observes it or not. In and of itself, exists the manifestation and substantial existence of the Sacred Being, peeking out from behind there veil of subjectivity and looks out from the very epicenter of our individualized attention. 
Somehow or other, the emanations from the Bindu crystallize into a diamond-like effulgence, the lens of the impartial witness to this play of energy, as it rises and blooms exponentially. When mind becomes wholly still, there exists no difference between subject & object, Brahman/God and Self. The doing and the doer are the very same expression and there is no self-containment possible to hold onto any onto the line of separations which draws any distinction. Yet, paradoxically, there is a palpable presence experienced, an echo remains heard of this indivisibility. It eclipses within the Self, only to mirror a reflection of the Divine, in devotional remembrance and thus become enacted, through steady integration and direct intent.
Hence, the path itself is the destination and the mountaintop is the base, mid-line and the dramatic steep summit to the apex of the peak. It's like seeking to arrive where one has always been. Then, the only difference is the amplification and immediacy of one's shift from the dream-state to that of awakening, from the darkness of misunderstanding to the brilliance of the Divine remembrance. In and of itself, the manifestation and substantiation of conscious existence of the singular, Sacred Being, itself peeking out from behind our filmy veils and the very core epicenter of our individualized attention.
And whichever path we embark upon, be it meandering or a direct B-line... we are each and all of us, already here. We exist in this eternal now and we are not apart from, nor even separate aspects of Brahman/God.... We are That.
Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti |
Edited by - Govinda on Oct 04 2013 6:29:06 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2013 : 3:22:46 PM
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Hi Govinda,
How would you delineate your "states" of Iso-self, Omni-self and Zero-self? Also, how do you see this mapping to the Christian concept of Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Thanks,
Jeff |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2013 : 10:09:13 AM
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Hi Omsat,
Just my two cents on your original question:
“How important is cultivation of energy really if one’s goal is liberation/union?” I'm actually going to change this around slightly and ask: What is the relevance of energy cultivation if one's goal is liberation/union?
I'll discuss my personal experience and extrapolate it to a more general understanding of what kundalini does to the nervous system.
On one, relative, level, human beings are biological organisms programmed with the directive to survive and reproduce. Taking calm, well-reasoned action to ensure the survival of the body, such as eating food, or staying inside if there happens to be a large hungry tiger prowling around outside is probably quite sensible.
However humans take it a step further than this creating a psychological notion of themselves as a separate entity, “Me”. They then extend this basic “fight or flight” survival conditioning into a complex system of thought and emotion based around protecting this “Me” (which exists only as a complex interplay of notions and emotions in the body-mind, but has no inherent existence beyond that conceptual structure).
- Criticize my ideas, belief system or religion? Bam! Fight or flight response, I get angry, since your behavior is “threatening” the psychological “Me”.
- The stock market crashes and I lose my investments. Bam! Fight or flight response, I get anxious, since this event threatens the well-being of the psychological “Me”.
- Guy rudely pushes in front of me in the subway car. Bam! Fight or flight response, I get angry, since this event is somehow denigrating or offending this psychological “Me”.
The teachings of Liberation/Union, both from Buddhism with its concept of Anatta (No-Self), and Advaita Vedanta (The True Self – Pure Consciousness & the I-thought – psychological separate self illusion) both teach us that Identification (holding the mental notion, and its associated emotional complex, of the body-mind being a separate self) is the cause of illusion and suffering.
Liberation/Union, at least on the Advaita non-dual path, tends to be reached in two steps:
1. One investigates one’s identity and sees for oneself if the the notion of being a separate self is essentially false, merely a thought that was believed. When the notion is seen as false, gradually the identification collapses out of our thoughts, feelings and behaviors. This may be fearful at first, but in its place is generally left a great peace and happiness. Furthermore, one realizes a truer identity, with The Self, Pure Basic Awareness (This is known as Rigpa in Dzogchen). The very same formless awareness which knows the sounds, sensations and images in your experience right now, is realized as one's true nature.
2. As the sense of being a separate self is dissolved, and with it the suffering and our feelings of being separate, limited, localized, we expand out into a state of unity with all that arises in our field of awareness. This experience is one of great love and service to others. One realizes everything to be one substance: Pure Basic Awareness, therefore there is no distinction of self/not self.
Where does kundalini come in, in all this?
Within 6 months of practicing AYP, as ecstatic energy first arose, I noticed a dramatic reduction in my fight or flight response. It was like a deeply rooted survival level of fear had deeply dropped out of my life. I’ve had something like 20-30 kundalini explosions since then (and a general constant background of ecstatic energy), mainly associated with deep seeing of the illusory nature of the separate self, and each one has left the body-mind in a state of much greater peace and calm, and increasingly deactivated the dominance of the fight or flight response, in defending an imaginary psychological entity.
Kundalini, I will venture, is the energy that allows the human body-mind to transcend its own survival conditioning - to reprogram the biological structure to exist without fear. The fight or flight response is deeply wired into the neurobiology of human organisms. Kundalini, transforms the two basic animal instincts of the human organism: survival and reproduction. It dissolves the complex patterns of thought and emotion, which result from identification with a separate self, and all the associated suffering, on a deep neurobiological level. It goes to reason that some sort of intense energy is needed for a body-mind to rid itself of this survival-based, possibly ancient, conditioning, does it not?
Gradually, step by step, we are freed from the prison of fear, that drives all of our activities to focus on selfish self-preservation, yet never finding happiness in this. Kundalini is the energy which makes this happen.
There was a war taking place in the land, and as a terrible samurai army, led by a fearful general, plundered the villages killing all women and children, the monks fled from their temple.
Only one monk remained, sitting in the middle of the temple, alone. As the Samurai general stormed the temple and came upon him, with his terrifying army, the monk continued sitting there, quite contented and happy.
The Samurai general roared, amazed at the insolent calm of this monk: “Don’t you know who I am? I am someone who could cut your head off without a second thought or batting an eye,”
To which the Monk replied, “And don’t you know who I am? I am someone who could offer you his head to cut off without a second thought or batting an eye.” The Samurai general gave up his sword and became a monk to learn his way.
IMO: When all is said and done, I think the gold standard for what constitutes an 'enlightened being', is one who is entirely beyond his/her own body-mind’s survival conditioning, and sense of being a separate self. Causeless peace, happiness and love are the consequences of this freedom. On the subject of hungry tigers, it is said that in a past life, the Buddha kindly offered his own body as food for a hungry tiger :-) |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Oct 05 2013 10:20:47 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2013 : 11:28:45 AM
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Hi All:
From the AYP point of view, energy cultivation is important in relation to the cultivation of abiding inner silence. By itself, energy cultivation can be a long way around to liberation, and it can be a rough road to travel without abiding inner silence pre-existing or being cultivated concurrently.
It is the merging of stillness (transcendent awareness) and energy (movement in relative existence) that constitutes human spiritual transformation. Just as the physical body is the vehicle for consciousness in the world, so too is the higher manifestation of energy (kundalini) the vehicle for the divine expression of stillness in the world.
In the AYP writings, it has been called "stillness in action" and an "outpouring of divine love." It is freedom, the natural expression of yoga/union, unity and non-duality.
This balanced merging of the transcendent and active principles has been characterized in the traditions as a merging of the divine masculine and divine feminine: Shiva and Shakti, Father and Holy Spirit, Yin and Yang, etc. And the resulting outpouring of divine love is the child, the fruit of the union.
Putting it into modern terminology: Stillness is the infinite resource and kundalini is the delivery system on this earth plane. The job of spiritual teachings, and we who use them, is to fully activate the divine machinery that is already awakening within us.
We can focus on developing the resource (abiding inner silence), or we can focus on developing the delivery system (kundalini). One will inevitably lead to the other, for one is not complete on this earth without the other. Or we can focus on developing both stillness and energy in tandem. One way or another the relationship between these two essential latent aspects of humanity will evolve. Every human nervous system is wired for it.
All of our spiritual experiences along the way are manifestations of this evolutionary process. It is human spiritual transformation!
The guru is in you.
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2013 : 12:25:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Govinda,
How would you delineate your "states" of Iso-self, Omni-self and Zero-self? Also, how do you see this mapping to the Christian concept of Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Thanks,
Jeff
Well as we all know, spiritual semantics can be quite the labyrinth of conceptualization... and I don't want to further this tendency of our species to dwell intellectually on descriptives... but being born a Christian, I have long pondered the meaning of: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
And I am not seeking to pull a Sri Parmahansa Yogananda here, insofar as dogmatically drawing parallels between Hinduism and Christianity, but there is a significant similarity, even if this comparison is essentially self-imposed by my own mind.
And I do emphatically feel that all three levels of Self/lokas/planes of reality... are wholly one, despite the relativity of their existence as related to specific states of being. And the Hindu simile is far easier to grasp, intellectually.
Iso-self is the domain of the human ego and I consciously don't use Ego-self, anymore.when Iso-self is more useful a conception. the "Iso" is indicative of the Jivatman. That isolated fulcrum of conscious-awareness which is separate from the Supreme One, subjectively. Thus, even Krishna, Buddha and Jesus are aspects of the division of Self and God. In Christian terms, the "Son of Man" is the level of identification with the body, personality, mind and soul of the individual. Even in it's ascended highest state, Iso-self maintains a minute film (or membrane) of separation between this and that. Hence, the Son is the Iso-self for all intended philosophical purposes.
The Father is the Omni-self or the Paramatman. This is the level whereby the indweller is evaporated within the fulcrum of the Absolute and the lines between the relative self and the Divine are erased. I often refer to this state as the "Eclipsing phase", for the two become unified as one, supra-consciously, which in essence, they have always been, all along. The "Sacred Remembrance" is found in this direct and seamless union. Father and Son are One. Jivatman is quintessentially Paramatman. Paramatman is likewise, Brahman with form or Ishvara/God manifest out of the Void. That single point of the Bindu, whence all that exists, springs into being.
Holy Spirit is Brahman/God without any form or trace of perceivable substance. The Clear Light of the Void, YHWH or the Tao. Hence, Zero-self is That. It resides within Absolute emptiness and is present within the blinding brilliance of all of this fullness... yet, it cannot be seen by any individualized aspect of itself, via the isolated center of conscious-awareness. Sakyamuni called this level "Anatman" and it is specifically, where there is no vortex or matrix of Self... manifested enough to reside within the duality of any existential paradigm.
Obviously, this triune conception is useful but also quite illusory, for all is irrefutably one and in it's indivisibility... it is beyond description or rational (or even intuitive) quantification. And yet, as human beings, we think and we speak, as we dream of this and that.
Hari Om Tat Sat
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Edited by - Govinda on Oct 05 2013 10:41:10 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2013 : 1:59:30 PM
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Hi Govinda,
Thanks for sharing your view. But, I have always seen it as the Holy Spirt as the active agent of God in the world rather than somehow being associated with the "void". The verses below sort of describe that perspective...
Romans 8:6-17
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2013 : 4:49:11 PM
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Yes jeff,
Yoganandaji also felt that the Holy Ghost was such... with his comparison with Sat, Tat and Aum. But because "Father" is such an anthropomorphic term, I switched them up... mostly because I feel that the immanence and formlessness of the Holy Word, is void of material features or of any concrete, perceivable substance. Much like the Eternal Tao, spoken of by the venerable Lao Tzu, with such poetic grace. The Holy Spirit is both beyond all division and wholly present within all that takes form and becomes substancial.
And there exists a tremendous misnomer about the nature of The Void. It is not simply the opposite of perceivable manifestation, like some kind of cosmic vacuum, it is wholly existent within all variances, levels and Lokas of seemingly finite manifestation, even as the Holy Spirit, surely is.
But yeah, Brahman/God is obviously the transcendental "Father", insofar as being wholly Supreme and One without a second. And words assuredly fall so shy of all that we attempt to encapsulate conceptually, about the higher aspects of the Divine.
And we do step onto thin ice, every time we try and apply reason to such highly delicate and subtle descriptives. Within the exalted wisdom of Hinduism, there is a far easier correlation to my triune ideas about Self. Admittedly, the whole hypothesis is a work in progress (as am I).
But no conceptual formatting completely fits all of our intellectual criterion. The living Spiritus surely is the active, dynamically creative principle, existent in all aspects of this, that and anything which may come into being. Please do share more of your deep well of spiritual insight, jeff. |
Edited by - Govinda on Oct 05 2013 11:10:47 PM |
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Energy cultivation – how important is it?
