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knowsoul
13 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 20 2013 : 07:29:59 AM
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Hi,
I've signed up for a 10 day vipassana retreat in August. The buddhist group who are setting up the whole thing are associated with S.N. Goenka. I don't think there are any chakra practices that go along vipassana. Earlier I was overloaded with SBP for 5 minutes and DM for 10 minutes.Would like to know about Vipassana do they guide if anything goes wrong.
Would appreciate your feedback.
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2013 : 08:08:28 AM
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Hi knowsoul
I can't comment on how the retreat will be because I have never been on one.
However, if you are overloading with your current AYP practice then maybe breath meditation would be right for you.
I don't know a lot about Vipassana, but I think it is similar.
http://www.aypsite.org/367.html
All the best! |
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knowsoul
13 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2013 : 4:16:41 PM
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Hi Woosa,
I come under oversensitive that is the reason why changed to Breath meditation from Mantra(IAM) meditation.Till now i haven't attended any retreats so wants to give a try.I heard that all will be doing meditation for 10 hrs a day ,there are chances of getting overloaded.I don't have any idea. Please do share your ideas....
Thanks |
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2013 : 8:09:25 PM
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Hi
Wow that sounds like a lot. I'm sensitive too and wouldn't dream of doing that much. I know for a fact that I wouldn't last an hour on the first day there! So I wouldn't know what I would be doing for the rest of the week.
However, it's best to know what is right for you. It might be best if you contact the guys running the retreat and tell them you are sensitive, and what happens if you run into trouble. Maybe test the waters before and do a few hours of breath meditation at home and see how it goes?
This is not AYP as the most that we do is three sitting sessions a day in 'retreat mode'. http://www.aypsite.org/387.html
Sorry I can't help much. Someone else might pipe up with a bit more experience of these retreats. |
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_shakti_
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2013 : 1:30:17 PM
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Hi there knowsoul, how was the retreat?
I have done two 10 day retreats and simply adored them. I can't wait to serve a course actually and am thinking of progressing to longer courses. My only issue is that in the application process, they seem to require you to have given up certain other practices. So my only choice to go forward would be to lie, because giving up my mantra or kundalini yoga is not something I am prepared to do- ever. I am fine with it for the duration of the course and never mix more than one practice, but they seem to require you to give it all up period, and that is not going to happen. One of the precepts you take is to not tell falsehoods, which is morally repugnant to me anyway, so.. I guess that answers that. I'm sure they'll let me serve though, lol..
You likely know by now that they do guide you if anything goes wrong and how everything is set up. Yes, you do meditate for 10+ hours a day. The course is completely silent, but there are periods where you are able to ask questions. Some people don't make it through the course because of stuff that comes up, many come back later to finish what they started though. Grown men were bursting into tears, and everyday at least one person would get up and run out of the hall during the 'strong determination' sits (you aren't supposed to open your eyes or move).. it's extremely powerful stuff.
I still can't believe it's free. I donate to them monthly because what I received is invaluable. I hope you too had an amazing experience, can't wait to hear about it :)
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Edited by - _shakti_ on Sep 09 2013 1:56:31 PM |
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Ruben
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2013 : 06:41:16 AM
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Hi shakti,
quote:
Originally posted by _shakti_
My only issue is that in the application process, they seem to require you to have given up certain other practices. So my only choice to go forward would be to lie, because giving up my mantra or kundalini yoga is not something I am prepared to do- ever. I am fine with it for the duration of the course and never mix more than one practice, but they seem to require you to give it all up period, and that is not going to happen. One of the precepts you take is to not tell falsehoods, which is morally repugnant to me anyway, so.. I guess that answers that. I'm sure they'll let me serve though, lol..
You likely know by now that they do guide you if anything goes wrong and how everything is set up.
You don't have to lie. Just say you practise "yoga".
Also, the acceptance of other practices varies depending on the retreat place and the leader of the retreat. Different countries/retreat places have different tolerance levels.
Speaking to the organizers will bring clarity about the strictness of the rules there. If you don't want to take a chance, be brief and general in your comments of other practices.
With 10 day retreats it should be no problem in many places. For the longer retreats, I have no experience to share with you.
Normally they have nothing against asanas for instance, but are concerned that you will mix things up during the retreat. Another of their concerns is that the vipassana practice as taught there is more powerful when everyone diligently practises the same method.
In case you are asked for more specifics, it may help to let them know that you will not mix any other practice during the retreat, that you love to follow the instructions to the letter during the retreat; that you have been capable of doing so in previous retreats already and that you understand the reasons why it is important (if all of these are true of course).
I have encountered diligent Goenka vipassana retreat takers who left the question blank; and others who were very detailed about their other practices. The latter could also participate in any retreat center they applied (the person I have in mind here was doing 10 day vipassana retreats only, every two months or so; he did not apply for longer retreats, so I cannot confirm about that).
Wish you more beautiful retreats
ruben
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Edited by - Ruben on Sep 11 2013 12:27:34 AM |
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2013 : 09:17:38 AM
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I am glad to see this topic rise to the top as I am considering one of these retreats.
I am wondering about the 10 hours of meditation per day though, that can be pretty punishing on the body if one is not accustomed to sitting for long periods of time.
How long do they sit for? 30 minutes then perform walking meditation as in Some ZEN schools before sitting for another session? |
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_shakti_
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2013 : 12:16:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruben
You don't have to lie. Just say you practice "yoga".
I did just that Ruben, except I included that mine is kundalini yoga. I was wait-listed until the teacher could contact me and ask about my practice specifically. Just to make sure that I don't mix the two practices.. who would? But anyway, it caused me some anxiety as I was left hanging until very shortly before the start of the course, and I had already taken time off of work.
I know one woman who admitted that she had ONE reiki treatment and felt energy moving through her, so they refused to allow her to attend a course. She later went on to, but you definitely have to be careful about what you mention.
quote:
With 10 day retreats it should be no problem in many places. For the longer retreats, I have no experience to share with you.
That's precisely what I am talking about, progressing to the long courses. There are specific requirements which I have looked into and spoke with others who have done them and know what all is required of you.
quote:
I have encountered diligent Goenka vipassana retreat takers who left the question blank
Now that there is just a fantastic idea, though.. the rules do change for the long courses. I suppose it is hypocritical of me to even want to, when I'm not prepared to give up all other methods. So I'll stick to serving and doing the 10 day retreats.. which are absolutely amazing. It's the closest I have come across to living in a Himalayan cave.. an experience that I have been craving for years.. sweet bliss!
You didn't mention whether you have done a retreat, or more than one.. I'm curious if it's the latter.. did you find much difference between them? Also, have you served? I can't wait to!
@Eperientialknowing you won't regret it, honest!
I was terrified before my first one, I smuggled a journal in with me, lol.. never used it though. Didn't need to. And yes, the 10 hours can feel daunting at times, especially at first. But it seems to take on its own momentum. It's usually for an hour at a time, sometimes two. There are three sits that are required to be in the hall, otherwise you have the choice to be in your room. Some people fall asleep, which is ok.. we're human (unless the manager catches you, lol).
We also break to eat and there are free times during the day, where you can walk the grounds. And about the diet, it's all vegetarian and amazing food. A hearty breakfast and lunch are served, but for supper newcomers only get a piece of fruit. For us old students.. only lemon water. But you don't notice, as you aren't doing anything strenuous, and digestion can really take away from your spiritual processes.
I hope you'll consider doing one, it can be a real life altering experience :)
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2013 : 3:25:01 PM
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| Thanks Shakti the hardest part will be getting my wife to understand. She worries over issues like this, when taking initiation into Kriya years ago she was very fearful for my safety. |
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2013 : 4:05:25 PM
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@ _shakti Oh and to add to it I understand what you are saying and think it was rather inconsiderate of the person handling matters to make you wait so long, I am just glad it went well for you taking that kind of time away from work is not easy to arrange.
I would certainly discuss it in advance of making plans and simply state my truth plainly that I would be willing to suspend my current sadhana practices while attending and practice only that which they teach. If they were to have heartburn with that then what can I say I would rather not participate anyway.
After all how can one know without first having the experience of their 10 day retreat it may be the best thing ever. Then again what I already have may be better.
I read where this group is rather strict with diet, drinking, silence, separation of the sexes etc... but that is ok I happen to like that kind of disciplined atmosphere.
I will never forget the time I went to a Kriya initiation event and a young girl in the front row was wearing tights that looked like they painted on her. I have to give the monks credit they did not stare but I sure did, mostly in disbelief as it was her Mother that brought her.
My biggest concern while there would be the movement of Kundalini for me it is not really separable any more as it has become just another part of life but certainly becomes strongly activated while sitting .
I understand there are no energetic practices but the truth of the matter as I am certain you are aware is that it just comes on it's own anyway regardless of intent in other words no special pranayama is needed just sitting is enough and the energy moves on it's own. Then it recedes and comes again. Spending 10 days denying what is natural seems like an exercise in futility. |
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Ruben
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2013 : 11:38:03 PM
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Hi shakti,
quote:
Originally posted by _shakti_
You didn't mention whether you have done a retreat, or more than one.. I'm curious if it's the latter.. did you find much difference between them? Also, have you served? I can't wait to!
I did 2 Goenka vipassana retreats (participating, no serving).
The first Goenka retreat was a major breakthrough for me. After the 10 days I even wished I could stay longer.. But the retreat is only for 10 days and I had a flight and other plans made already.
After the second retreat I wished to serve right away at the upcoming retreat (just a couple of days after). The teacher for the next retreat did not speak English though, hence it was impractical that I would serve.
quote:
Originally posted by _shakti_
except I included that mine is kundalini yoga. I was wait-listed until the teacher could contact me and ask about my practice specifically. Just to make sure that I don't mix the two practices.. who would? But anyway, it caused me some anxiety as I was left hanging until very shortly before the start of the course, and I had already taken time off of work.
Kundalini and reiki are alarm words amongst Goenka vipassana retreat organizers. They had some negative experiences with people practising these.
In the intro to the first Goenka retreat I attended, we were already warned not to mix and that there have been some happenings with people who practise reiki eg. they wish to avoid.
quote:
Originally posted by _shakti_I know one woman who admitted that she had ONE reiki treatment and felt energy moving through her, so they refused to allow her to attend a course. She later went on to, but you definitely have to be careful about what you mention.
Yes, I understand it is important to mind your words and be empathic of the people we are speaking to, understanding where they come from.
When talking to people who are quite diligent and religious about following the teachings strictly, it is wise to speak using the vocabulary that they use. In the case of Goenka vipassana organizers, talking about "sensations", rather than "feeling the energy", "kundalini" etc. The mere mentioning of these words is already often interpreted as a deviation from the method as some label and/or significance is put on the sensations. This is considered a beginner way amongst some. (Even though it requires much understanding, experience and insight to know the subtleties and workings of kundalini and can be a path in itself). Following the method, one is trained to "just observe" "whatever it is that is observed". Somehow, even describing what you are observing is to be considered an attachment. More "advanced" would be to "just observe" and "remain equanimous" aka remain quiet about whatever it is you are experiencing.
These are not claims I would make, yet it seems to be the way things are seen there, invariably and rigidly often times (Goenka put a lot of emphasis on keeping the teachings "pure" and wanted to avoid other teachers to give explanations they are not qualified to give; hence many teachers even if they had some understanding of kundalini are not allowed to go into it and are told to give the robotic answer "just observe" to anyone anytime.).
There are more good reasons why care is taken that retreaters will not mix other practices (apart from the safety).
One is that the method is believed to work better when all participants diligently practice the same method.
Another, more for first timers, is "to prove" that the results at the end of the retreat are owing to the method being taught during the retreat and nothing else (which would be difficult to determine if some other practice has been followed.
Yet another reason is that the intensity of the tapas builds up and that is somehow wanted in the method also. If one starts doing asanas to relax or other practices, it is believed the benefit of the retreat will be less and progress is hindered. It is ok to do these relaxing practices outside of the retreat, but not during the retreat.
In some cases there may be other less noble reasons also (some fanaticism or biased beliefs about the motivations/implications of your doing other practices at home).
You can find out for yourself by speaking to the organizers. Explaining that you understand the reasons, appreciate these; that you have been following the method diligently in previous retreats already and are confident you can remain with the instructions in the next retreat as well; may help.
There are people with lots of experience in Goenka vipassana retreats (teachers) whom also have experience in other systems (according to what I've been told by someone who did Goenka retreats continuously for a year or so: participating at one and serving the next). So, there may still be hope for you to attend a longer retreats at some point at the right time/right place perhaps.
quote:
Originally posted by _shakti_
quote:
Originally posted by Ruben I have encountered diligent Goenka vipassana retreat takers who left the question blank
Now that there is just a fantastic idea, though.. the rules do change for the long courses. I suppose it is hypocritical of me to even want to, when I'm not prepared to give up all other methods. So I'll stick to serving and doing the 10 day retreats.. which are absolutely amazing. It's the closest I have come across to living in a Himalayan cave.. an experience that I have been craving for years.. sweet bliss!
:)  
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Edited by - Ruben on Sep 11 2013 12:36:40 AM |
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Ruben
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2013 : 01:25:40 AM
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Hi Experientialknowing,
quote:
Originally posted by Experientialknowing
I am glad to see this topic rise to the top as I am considering one of these retreats.
I am wondering about the 10 hours of meditation per day though, that can be pretty punishing on the body if one is not accustomed to sitting for long periods of time.
How long do they sit for? 30 minutes then perform walking meditation as in Some ZEN schools before sitting for another session?
Most sittings are about one hour. There is also a 2 hour sitting every day.
The 10 hours are sitting meditation only. In between the sittings you can walk.
Before I attended the first Goenka retreat I was not used to sit even one sitting for more than half hour.
Yet, it worked out fine during the retreat; I was surprised myself.
You will probably experience some discomfort, but you would also if you would be walking/running/cycling etc for 10 hours if you are not used to it.
There are quite a few who attend a Goenka retreat without even ever having meditated at all before.
Normally when taking it one sitting at a time and having a strong willingness in making the best of the retreat and the teachings, you will experience you are capable of much more than would think.
It is excessive focus on the past and negative expectations that create more pain. When staying focused on the present sitting, it turns out quite ok. Some sittings are easier than others. Contradictory to what one might think, it does not get worse; every night the body has a chance to rest and be more tolerant of long sittings the next day.
I would suggest to experiment with different ways of sitting already; and how to use pillows before you attend the retreat.
Find out different positions, so you can vary the way you sit in alternating sittings and use your leg muscles in new ways. This is very helpful.
For instance: varying the height on which you sit cross legged (by using more or less pillows), lets you use the muscles differently and ease some that have been strained in a previous sitting. Then you may also sit in vajrasana or other postures as long as your back is straight. You can even sit on a chair, though usually it is discouraged.
Consider bringing a pillow of your own as in some centers the amount is limited.
Best,
Ruben
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Edited by - Ruben on Sep 11 2013 06:13:25 AM |
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2013 : 07:51:51 AM
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Thanks Ruben I that is a good point So I guess it would be ok to bring my Zafu and Zabuton I have grown accustomed to over the years as both are Black so it should not be seen as a distraction.
I was more concerned about 3 hour plus sittings 1 hour is not a problem 2hours is more than I currently have time for in my schedule but I am sure as you say it would work out fine. |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2013 : 08:51:13 AM
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Experientialknowing,
I am happy to know that you are going to 10 day course.
YOur wife also can do this course concurrently if possible.
If you are 50 or younger, you will not feel any discomfort.
I did my first 10 day course at the age of 55 and therafter did 5-6
courses in next 2 years. Now I continue doing a form of vipassana 3-4 hours a day . I have had a continuous feeling since last 22 years that this is most wonderful and useful thing that I have ever done in this life, |
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2013 : 09:14:30 AM
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Thanks Riju I respect your wisdom and it is directly due to your thread that the interest in doing this has occured.
Unfortunately my wife has no interest in matters beyond the mundane perhaps that is too harsh a term.
Work family and keeping a good home are her concerns. How she does it all I will never know but she does it with delight enthusiasm and good humor so I do not interfere.
That is not to say she is unwise often she has been a great teacher and there is not a day that goes by she does not astound me with some casual comment showing natural insight.
Of course I love my wife but I also happen to like her and respect her, she is my best friend.
Ok so enough with my good fortune when it comes to spouses.
Yes I clearly see her as an attachment and know that one day when the time comes for either of us to leave the body the attachment will cause great pain.
I am not certain I will be able to do a 10 day retreat because the worry it would cause her would be a constant companion during the trip.
How do others deal with situations such as these? |
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_shakti_
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2013 : 05:06:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Experientialknowing
Thanks Shakti the hardest part will be getting my wife to understand. She worries over issues like this, when taking initiation into Kriya years ago she was very fearful for my safety.
May I ask what your wife was/is fearful of? Is it possible that the fear is due to misinformation that could be rectified?
quote:
Oh and to add to it I understand what you are saying and think it was rather inconsiderate of the person handling matters to make you wait so long, I am just glad it went well for you taking that kind of time away from work is not easy to arrange.
I would certainly discuss it in advance of making plans and simply state my truth plainly that I would be willing to suspend my current sadhana practices while attending and practice only that which they teach. If they were to have heartburn with that then what can I say I would rather not participate anyway.
I hope I have not given a wrong impression by including my own contemplations about the organization (in regard to the long courses specifically), I really have no complaints as my experience of the retreats was absolutely fabulous. And ultimately, I was let in both times, which I am very grateful for. You should have no problems just by being honest in the application process, just be aware that mentioning things like reiki and kundalini could delay your acceptance.
quote:
I read where this group is rather strict with diet, drinking, silence, separation of the sexes etc... but that is ok I happen to like that kind of disciplined atmosphere.
Then you will fit right in :)
quote:
I will never forget the time I went to a Kriya initiation event and a young girl in the front row was wearing tights that looked like they painted on her. I have to give the monks credit they did not stare but I sure did, mostly in disbelief as it was her Mother that brought her.
One woman had to be spoken to by the women's manager because her attire and certain behaviour was attracting attention to herself. Normally men and women do not see each other the for the majority of the course, but at the site we use (non centre), that isn't possible.. so they segregate us with partitions, but we can still see ach other.
quote:
My biggest concern while there would be the movement of Kundalini for me it is not really separable any more as it has become just another part of life but certainly becomes strongly activated while sitting .
Yes, if your kundalini is already active then the purification you are able to achieve through the process will likely trigger certain symptoms. I know that it did for me. I couldn't sleep for the majority of my first course, I would lay there 'buzzing' and seeing geometric patterns dance when I closed my eyes. Many other things too, some kind of scary to be honest, but I managed. They gave me a hot water bottle to use and it was a godsend!
quote:
Spending 10 days denying what is natural seems like an exercise in futility.
Just not possible! lol. And they are aware.. they describe/perceive such experiences as the releasing/purification of Sankhâras. Their focus is to observe and let the experiences pass, to not give it any undue focus.. which isn't all that different from what is taught here. They also told me that I was free to back off a bit on meditating so hard, since things were really intense for me.
quote:
So I guess it would be ok to bring my Zafu and Zabuton I have grown accustomed to over the years as both are Black so it should not be seen as a distraction.
Oh absolutely, that will be great for you since you're already comfortable with it :)
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Edited by - _shakti_ on Sep 13 2013 05:50:01 AM |
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_shakti_
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2013 : 05:52:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruben
The first Goenka retreat was a major breakthrough for me. After the 10 days I even wished I could stay longer..
Wow really? That's amazing! The experience was very powerful for me, but I had a lot of joy upon coming out of silence. It spilled out of me, lol.
quote:
After the second retreat I wished to serve right away at the upcoming retreat (just a couple of days after). The teacher for the next retreat did not speak English though, hence it was impractical that I would serve.
Maybe a blessing then? Because too much at once can overload the system.
My experience of the two retreats was almost completely different. My first course was very powerful (especially energetically), lots of highs and lows. The second course I felt more grounded with it, and I really learned the value of equanimity- beyond the mere intellectual.
quote:
Kundalini and reiki are alarm words amongst Goenka vipassana retreat organizers. They had some negative experiences with people practising these.
Yes I know, and understand why. Though to be honest, it seems a bit fear based at times to me.
quote:
In the intro to the first Goenka retreat I attended, we were already warned not to mix and that there have been some happenings with people who practise reiki eg. they wish to avoid.
I am a so called reiki master, but left that info off the application, since I don't really practice it.
quote:
When talking to people who are quite diligent and religious about following the teachings strictly, it is wise to speak using the vocabulary that they use. In the case of Goenka vipassana organizers, talking about "sensations", rather than "feeling the energy", "kundalini" etc. The mere mentioning of these words is already often interpreted as a deviation from the method as some label and/or significance is put on the sensations. This is considered a beginner way amongst some. (Even though it requires much understanding, experience and insight to know the subtleties and workings of kundalini and can be a path in itself). Following the method, one is trained to "just observe" "whatever it is that is observed". Somehow, even describing what you are observing is to be considered an attachment. More "advanced" would be to "just observe" and "remain equanimous" aka remain quiet about whatever it is you are experiencing.
Yes, and well-put. I understand why they place such a focus on observation, yet.. I think it can also be a bit naive. At certain stages of a kundalini awakening it can feel near-impossible to not get caught up in what is happening, though that is certainly a worthy goal. I do think that surrendering to the movement/process of kundalini is wise.. which when you think about it, isn't really all that different from observation (as opposed to aversion/craving).
quote:
There are more good reasons why care is taken that retreaters will not mix other practices (apart from the safety).
One is that the method is believed to work better when all participants diligently practice the same method.
Another, more for first timers, is "to prove" that the results at the end of the retreat are owing to the method being taught during the retreat and nothing else (which would be difficult to determine if some other practice has been followed.
Yet another reason is that the intensity of the tapas builds up and that is somehow wanted in the method also. If one starts doing asanas to relax or other practices, it is believed the benefit of the retreat will be less and progress is hindered. It is ok to do these relaxing practices outside of the retreat, but not during the retreat.
I understand all of that, and never did have a problem with not mixing practices for the duration of the course. Though at times things naturally came up, like my mantra.. unbidden. It was hard to make go away at times. And I confess.. I did use some yoga at times, as my body got so cramped up. Though I hid in the trees, lol.
quote:
You can find out for yourself by speaking to the organizers. Explaining that you understand the reasons, appreciate these; that you have been following the method diligently in previous retreats already and are confident you can remain with the instructions in the next retreat as well; may help.
I'm good for the 10 day retreats, my only concern was for the long courses. But I'll cross that bridge if and when I ever get there. As I'd said, it probably is a bit hypocritical, since I'm never going to leave my other practices. And who has the time to do two- 1 hour sits per day, plus other practices?? Not I.
I'm curious.. was transition back to real life after the retreats smooth for you?
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2013 : 11:59:39 AM
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HI Shakti and thanks again. When it comes to my wife's fear I am certain it comes from several different layers and not just one. Attempting to educate would likely only be seen as an attempt to prove a point.
Of course being aware of the past cult leaders and the behavior of fake Gurus is well known to most and this is where allot of it comes from.
For example these were the words from my wife when I took initiation after we were married ( I had taken initiation in the past prior to being a married person before even knowing her.)
Quote:
Yes I know you are able to take care of yourself but what if you are drugged, what if you are given food that is drugged or you get shot? These people are complete strangers how can you trust them.
To which I would reply that the place I was going was in a public area there would be many people and it does not serve the ones collecting money to harm those whom they hope to have as a source of reoccurring payments.
So as you can see this 10 day retreat will be a hard sell as they will not even accept money until after the fact.  to make matters worse from what I understand there is no contact with the outside world via telephone Lol I would not miss that but this alone will electrify her like a wet cat plugged into an outlet.
Yep all claws and fur standing straight out.
My wife was married once before to an abusive violent alcoholic drug addicted convict who was arrested for attempted murder after nearly stabbing someone to death. She divorced him many years ago after he got out of jail.
Yes she is past allot of that but when one is exposed to such inhuman insanity for a prolonged period of time it requires a long time to grow past it. To her credit she never became a tragic figure but made a better life for herself as she is a strong person but some things just haunt a person even when they know the cause.
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