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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 11 2013 : 1:49:23 PM
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For those interested: It's worth checking out Jiri Vacek, and small amount of material he has available in English.
His e-book: http://www.jirivacek.cz/index.php?o...6&Itemid=117
His website: http://www.jirivacek.cz/index.php?lang=en
I found his work remarkably exciting and most importantly, comprehensive.
He's oriented towards spiritual practices, primarily atma vichara (attention to awareness, becoming aware of awareness, attention to the witness, resting as awareness etc) but to my great interest he also advocates a style of practices to complement atma vichara which are very similar to AYP.
He recommends a Pranayama very similar to spinal breathing & also mantra meditation.
I've gradually developed the sense that teachings focusing solely on awareness & self inquiry, without any meditative & kundalini practices which promote a deeper purification and physical transformation, were lacking.
Realizing oneself as the formless subject (non-dual awareness) is a nice realization but I have the intuitive sense that liberation goes much further.
Jiri teaches a blend of advaita, modernized and easily explained teachings of Ramana & atma vichara practice, Kashmir Shaivism & kundalini yoga (not meaning Yogi Bhajan's kundalini yoga - but any yoga which activates kundalini).
He said on the process of enlightenment:
quote:
It is certain (and my experience confirms it) that the fastest and most effective way to progress on the spiritual path to liberation is the practice of atma vichara together with the practice of integral kundalini yoga, which transmutes the manifest part of our individuality—our body, prana, and the central nadi—by the power of consciousness through the Witness.
In this way, we activate the latent energy and channel it through the central nadi out of the body and into the light merged with the I AM Witness in the highest centers above the head. I am convinced that the silent practice of atma vichara cannot lead to liberation without the transformation of the shaktic or energetic essence of our karma, outwardly expressed as the body and prana.
It is certain (and my experience confirms it) that the fastest and most effective way to progress on the spiritual path to liberation is the practice of atma vichara together with the practice of integral kundalini yoga, which transmutes the manifest part of our individuality—our body, prana, and the central nadi—by the power of consciousness through the Witness.
It was exciting for me personally as I've always gravitated towards Ramana and direct-path teachers of that ilk, but also felt that deep and powerful meditative/kundalini practices help to enable us to fully realize the meaning of such teachings in our own experience. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Jun 11 2013 3:13:56 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2013 : 2:00:50 PM
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Thank you Mr Anderson :)
but both links are not working over here |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2013 : 3:14:25 PM
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edited! links are now working. Thanks for pointing out!  |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2013 : 3:33:16 PM
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Here, aside from atma vichara, are the practices Jiri recommends:
quote:
And then you can continue with Kundalini Pranayama in sushumna (central energetic pathway in the subtle body), it is situated in the inner subtle space of the spine. The central path is not in spine of the gross body but in the inner feeling of the subtle body in space of the spine. You must feel it, not imagine it. Direct kundalini pranayama is simple and natural:
Simultaneously with your breathing in feel the movement of energy of inner breathalong the central path in spine from Sahasrara above the head to the first chakra in the base of the spine (perineum). All inner process of breathing must be observed in a detached state of the self-aware witness.
Be aware of the natural still point after breathing in and turn your whole attention to the experience of your pure being - pure self awareness of I AM that pure awareness of I AM - the witness.
Simultaneously with your breathing out feel the movement of energy of the inner breath along the central path in the spine from the first chakra to crown chakra above the head. All inner process of breathing must be observed in a detached state of the self-aware witness.
Be aware of the natural still point after breathing out and turn your wholeattention to the experience of your pure being - pure self awareness of I AM that pure awareness of I AM - the witness.
During the meditation on this inner breathing in the central path you must be aware of self as a witness of this inner process in your consciousness. It is the most important thing to do.
The second important note is to be aware of the Self as pure I AM in both still points after breathing in and after breathing out as the same space of consciousness. Still points - spaces in the breathing process are the places where true Self = pure awareness of I AM shines. Be aware of the Self in these
still points.
You can practice this meditation for the next 30 minutes of pranayama.
....then exclusively turn your whole attention fully to the Self = pure subject I AM and be still, only be aware of I AM I AM I AM... And be still as witnessing consciousness of the witness itself. Witnessing the witness is the way to natural samadhi.
Bears some obvious similarities with AYP (although also some major obvious differences too), I will be sticking with AYP of course, but it's interesting to see a teacher prescribing such similar methods.
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Edited by - mr_anderson on Jun 11 2013 5:04:15 PM |
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yoguy
Switzerland
9 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2013 : 3:42:14 PM
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mr_anderson,
have been waiting for this opportunity to thank you for your post about your experience with Rupert Spira http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....=12103#12103 nine months ago.
That post led me to several weekends and a retreat with Rupert in the last several months and it has had subtle and profound effects.
At a retreat in the UK in May Rupert asked me how did I end up there and told him about your post. He remembered you from Omega last year, your post about it you forwarded him and the fact you wanted to start a meeting group.
More to the point of your post, Advaita and practices, the impression I have gained in these months is that as much as in the purest sense the only practice one can do is be the knowing presence of awareness, and that too is from the point of view of a separate subject, until that is not a 24/7 fact other practices to help towards that are accepted and recommended.
Rupert does some asanas classes, that end up being everything but asanas on purpose to help dissolve the sense of separation in the body and to feel that what we are is awareness and that the sensations at the level of the body appear in awareness and not the other way around. So it is all about slow movement and paying attention to it.
Have spent 5 days with Francis Lucille just now at Omega in NY State. After asking him about pranayama, the relation between the energetic component and silence, he went on to say that the nadis are just an image. They do not exist and the idea to clean the nadis means that all the energy that is used in keeping up the sense of separation of the body is withdrawn and brought back to the central channel (sushumna). He jokingly said that some people hear about the dormant kundalini in the base chakra and go on banging their butt on the floor to awaken it and they might succeed in the end, it will just take longer.
The next day, probably because I had mentioned the benefits about pranayama he went on to do a pranayama class in the morning. We did uddiyana, nauli was mentioned, agni sara, jalandhara bandha (chin lock), mula bandha and uddiyana bandha during practice where recommended, kapalbhati, bhastrika (the one similar to kapalbhati), alternate nostril breathing. Retention was advised for no more than a couple of seconds, and to go very easy on kapalbhati at first.
During alternate nostril breathing he advised to imagine the air going in from the base of the spine up to the throat, a couple of seconds of retention with chin lock and then on the exhale imagine the air flowing out of the top and back of the head. This was stressed to dissolve the sense of the head as being the center of me, instead to have the impression of the real me is expanding in space.
So the practices are hatha yoga practices that have a special focus on awareness and the dissolution of the sense of me in the body.
Francis Lucille stresses that this comes from Tantric Shaivism from Kashmir.
I have found this shifting of the focus of practice very interesting and beneficial. He does the same for asanas, that are more of an asanas as compared to Rupert.
The fact that I had gone to Rupert's class before made me better understand what Francis was aiming at.
My understanding is that if you are able to HEAR the Advaita teaching then you can settle for higher practices or if you prefer a different perspective on hatha yoga practices, if you understand what I mean.
To my question about teachers, Francis said that if you are interested in the higher teaching then it is like if you want a good cognac, you just don't go and buy it at the local liquor store. What my take on it was, if you can hear these words then there is no point in going to someone who will teach from a "lower" perspective.
Francis Lucile has had Jean Klein as his teacher. Jean Klein was teaching yoga too. Francis mentioned that when he first started he used to go after class to Jean Klein and check with him all the details of the asanas to make sure he got them right and laughing said that Jean Klein was very meticulously telling him all he wanted to know, until Francis understood that that was not the essence of the teaching.
And now let me tell you a bit about my path:
I started yoga as asanas, going from one class to the next until decided to settle down with ashtanga vinyasa three years ago (that I dropped one year after). From there ended up at Yoga Thailand with Paul Dallaghan for Christmas two and half years ago and discovered pranayama. There for a second felt a great peace and decided this was what I wanted and from then on have not missed one day of pranayama practice.
Went to study with Paul's teacher, Sri O.P. Tiwari. His teaching comes from Swami Kuvalayanda a well respected yogi who founded an ashram between Mumbai and Pune dedicated to scientific research on yoga. He teaches also the yogic classic texts like Patanjali Sutras and Hatha Pradipika.
All pranayamas are done with ratios. You begin with 1-2, meaning you double the time of your exhale with respect to the inhale. If you inhale in 4 seconds, you exhale in 8 seconds. As you advance you start with retention, 1-1-2, same length as the inhale, then 1-2-2, doubling the retention with respect to the inhale. And so on to get to 1-4-2 only under an advanced teacher supervision.
From reading Yogani posts on pranayama and the tale in Secrets of Wilder, my guess is that this pranayama focused on strictly respected ratios will not be dangerous if done under the right supervision. I am no expert, but it seems to me that the risk with pranayama comes mainly from long retention times aimed at triggering a super compensation by the body that might in the end trigger a shutdown both physically and psychologically, as we are playing with what keeps the body alive and if we think about it, done in an exaggerated way will reinforce the feeling I am the body. But if done correctly it will do the opposite, the breath flowing unrestricted in sushumna with a different feeling of expansion to it. The ratios seem to be there to avoid exaggerating on the retention phase, but will of course work its way slower, but safer. It then boils down to how much time one wants to dedicate to this.
Tiwariji mentions that after a while he started pushing his retention to 2mn and in a few weeks he started gasping for air during the day with no apparent reason. When he went to see his teacher he tells the story of never seeing him so upset and been banned of pranayama for some months.
I came to AYP because last September felt something was missing. Was sitting in silence before practice in the morning and my breath started flowing in a central canal between my eyebrows, with that came greater focus and peace. When it happened I was with both my teachers and the only answer I got was that IT had started, but nothing more was said.
So I started searching the Internet and came to AYP, started DM, SP and Samyama. Have not missed my twice a day routine since, that is preceded in the morning by my usual pranayama practice and followed by asanas.
The depth of change that DM and SP have had on my life and on both pranayama and asanas is incredible and I know this is just the beginning of it.
Rupert Spira's teaching has had the same effect on all the above practices and of course on my life.
So to go back to practices, if you are fortunate enough to be able to start with the higher teaching, the direct path, that is great, but if not practices are useful and as you see I have not dropped my older practices for the new, just adapted the old practices with the new understanding.
For those who can read French there is an interesting interview of Francis Lucille that goes straight into differentiating between the energetic and the silence component of enlightenment, and as AYP he stresses the importance of silence.
http://www.shunyatayoga.ch/doc/RENC...0LUCILLE.pdf
With deep gratitude and love,
yoguy
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2013 : 6:00:43 PM
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Hi yoguy,
Thank you very much for your message! It makes me very pleased to think that my post was useful in some way. sometimes I think I'm just waxing on for no reason, and wonder why I do it
I'm very pleased that Rupert's teaching had its effect. It certainly did on me.
I think ultimately the answer to all questions about "to practice" or "not to practice" could come down to:
1. Are you firmly abiding in the Self, meaning that neither of the three states: Deep Sleep, Dreaming or Waking take you away from the Self?
If ANS = Yes THEN perhaps you will find practices are not necessary.
If ANS = No THEN as Yogani says, are we not all inclined to be doing something in waking life? What is more likely to be helpful - to favor spiritual practices, company and teachers or to simply go away and forget we ever heard about the whole enlightenment thing in the first place? ;-)
It is clear then: for 99.9999999% of us, practices, retreats and teachers will be helpful and necessary.
I agree, to simply rest as the knowing awareness is maybe the most direct practice (at the point when one has truly had some experiential recognition of formless awareness).
However, most of us have weighty vasanas and various other obstructions to deal with, and in my experience: powerful forms of meditation and pranayama that work with energy tend to be effective means to clear up these problems.
I know my best side: Loving, kind, non-judgmental, gentle, easily letting go. But I'm also capable of bad behaviors and falling into ego-driven consciousness which draws me away from the Self and causes me to act in ways which I regret.
These for me are the signs that a continued effort is required, until such karma has been cleared up.
In conclusion, thank you for your message, it seems our views are in alignment, and I'm very pleased to hear you are enjoying Rupert and Francis's teachings!
I will perhaps see you at a retreat one day soon!
With love,
Josh |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2013 : 02:07:46 AM
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Thank you yoguy for your post , i really enjoyed reading it :)
2 of my friends were in Omega retreat with Francis ...Raj and Maher
the world is small indeed
ps:thank you for the article in french...very good one |
Edited by - maheswari on Jun 18 2013 02:08:30 AM |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2013 : 06:55:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
Thank you very much for your message! It makes me very pleased to think that my post was useful in some way. sometimes I think I'm just waxing on for no reason, and wonder why I do it
I'm very pleased that Rupert's teaching had its effect. It certainly did on me.
I think ultimately the answer to all questions about "to practice" or "not to practice" could come down to:
1. Are you firmly abiding in the Self, meaning that neither of the three states: Deep Sleep, Dreaming or Waking take you away from the Self?
If ANS = Yes THEN perhaps you will find practices are not necessary.
If ANS = No THEN as Yogani says, are we not all inclined to be doing something in waking life? What is more likely to be helpful - to favor spiritual practices, company and teachers or to simply go away and forget we ever heard about the whole enlightenment thing in the first place? ;-)
It is clear then: for 99.9999999% of us, practices, retreats and teachers will be helpful and necessary.
I agree, to simply rest as the knowing awareness is maybe the most direct practice (at the point when one has truly had some experiential recognition of formless awareness).
However, most of us have weighty vasanas and various other obstructions to deal with, and in my experience: powerful forms of meditation and pranayama that work with energy tend to be effective means to clear up these problems.
I know my best side: Loving, kind, non-judgmental, gentle, easily letting go. But I'm also capable of bad behaviors and falling into ego-driven consciousness which draws me away from the Self and causes me to act in ways which I regret.
These for me are the signs that a continued effort is required, until such karma has been cleared up.
Hey Josh,
Please do wax on - very helpful to many, including me.
You are absolutely right, again. Resting as knowing awareness continuously would require no other practices. I find that ego identification seems to happen in cycles - a big opening results in dropping vasana coloring and existing simply as the knowing awareness for days/weeks/months.. Until another "layer" of vasanas is pushed through, perhaps? And it is back to being identified as the separate self and intensification of practices.. But that identification is held a bit more loosely with each opening. For me at least, this is where acceptance and surrender were required.. There is no longer the desperate urgency to be past ego identification, to find obstructions and annihilate them, etc.. Joy and peace in simple things in daily life are here whether there is ego identification or not.
It was confusing to go through these cycles until I heard various teachers talk about this being the norm. Very few are able to shed ego identification all at once and permanently, Ramana Maharshi being the shining example.
Yoguy, that was a beautiful description. Thank you for sharing. Spira and Lucille are two of my favorite teachers. Maybe I'll see you and Josh at a retreat someday.
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2013 : 1:37:15 PM
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quote:
There is no longer the desperate urgency to be past ego identification, to find obstructions and annihilate them, etc.. Joy and peace in simple things in daily life are here whether there is ego identification or not.
Agreed! Am certainly experiencing these cycles of identification. |
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yoguy
Switzerland
9 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2013 : 2:43:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
2 of my friends were in Omega retreat with Francis ...Raj and Maher
the world is small indeed
Thank you for all your great posts, I picture you like the AYP fairy.
Sat next to Nita and Raj the first day and they were so welcoming, I fell right in the retreat.
The foundation of a friend opened a yoga studio early this year in Beirut so that teachers and students have a place to practice. He lives in New York, but is Lebanese and grew up in Beirut. Until last year he was on the board of Omega.
He mentioned the Chinmaya mission in NYC as being very good. He told me next time I come I should go and meet the Swami, he answers all the questions one can come up with. (As mr_anderson was mentioning it in a post by kami on the Gita).
With love
yoguy
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yoguy
Switzerland
9 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2013 : 3:02:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
These for me are the signs that a continued effort is required, until such karma has been cleared up.
Fully agree with you.
For me it is crystal clear that each practice has created openings for the next one. Had read two books on Ramana Maharshi less than one year ago as they were recommended by a friend.
As much as I enjoyed them, felt they had something, had no real clue what they where talking about. It is just thru practice that an understanding has started forming here.
It is tiny each time, it is not linear as kami says, but it all adds up when I look back.
Looking forward to a future retreat with you both...
With love
yoguy |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2013 : 3:02:22 PM
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quote:
Sat next to Nita and Raj the first day and they were so welcoming, I fell right in the retreat.
lovely couple are not they?
yes there are many yoga centers in Beirut...it has become mainstream although 99% of students are only into asanas....yet it is a start and definitely better than nothing
@mr anderson : sorry for hijacking your thread |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2013 : 4:36:06 PM
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| hi maheswari, no worries, there's no 'me' who can claim to own the thread anyways! ;-) |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2013 : 9:50:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
I've gradually developed the sense that teachings focusing solely on awareness & self inquiry, without any meditative & kundalini practices which promote a deeper purification and physical transformation, were lacking.
Thanks for sharing the resource you've discovered, along with your emerging insights, Mr. Anderson.
quote:
Originally posted by kami
I find that ego identification seems to happen in cycles - a big opening results in dropping vasana coloring and existing simply as the knowing awareness for days/weeks/months.. Until another "layer" of vasanas is pushed through
Interesting observation about the cycle of vasanas. Sounds like an important principle to look out for further down the road as to not be discouraged if or when it unravels that way.
There’s another example on topic that I’d like to share, coming from a more well-known Jnani, Sri Ramana Maharshi. It details the interaction between self-inquiry and the processes found in the pranic and causal bodies. The lessons here suggest that by regular application of effective techniques, we can eventually create our own subtle-body maps that will be most accurate. I find nonetheless that learning a bit about them in the great variety with which they are put forth, whether from frontier science research, Tibetan Buddhism, Taoist martial arts and internal alchemy, Shamanism, psychonauts, etc., dispels some doubt and brings inspiration and motivation to embark on the path. That is undoubtedly one of the reasons the extended book list is made available. On the flip-side of this, it is all too easy to get bogged down in details, inconsistencies, and idle speculation. Time in research becomes time away from practice where the real first-hand insights emerge, and it is with that in mind that I still found the following description well-worth it.
The question to Maharshi is whether the Jivanadi (sushumna) is real or just imagination. In response, he mentions pranayama as helpful “to rouse Kundalini Sakti which lies coiled in the solar plexus” (Sri Munagala Venkataramiah – Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, p. 596). Then he clarifies that the vasanas will remain in the heart-center regardless of the Samadhi associated with concentration on (or perhaps more accurately, opening of) the crown. The key to their removal involves the methods of self-inquiry, which help the movement along the “curved sushumna” from the crown down to the heart-center as the final resting place. “This is the direct method for Self-Realisation. One who adopts it need not worry about nadis, the brain, the Sushumna, the Paranadi, the Kundalini, pranayama or the six centres.”
The confusion between the actual starting place of the sushumna is described to vary depending on the approach: a yogi regards its origin in the muladhara chakra, while for a jnani it is the heart-center. “The truth is that the paranadi should be entered. By yogic practice one goes down, then rises up, wanders all through until the goal is reached; by jnana abhyas one settles down directly in the centre.” –p. 380
A further clarification on the heart versus the heart-center: “Anahata is not the same as the Heart-centre [..] We are never away from the Heart-centre. Before reaching anahata or after passing it, one is only in the centre. Whether one understands it or not, one is not away from the centre. Practice of yoga or vichara is done, always remaining in the centre only.” –p. 382.
David Godman paraphrases this and other teachings of Maharshi in ‘Be As You Are’: “Since he maintained that self-enquiry would automatically send the kundalini to the Heart-centre, he taught that separate yoga exercises were unnecessary” (p. 142).
The above example is one of the few I have come across that explains the apparent disparity between Vedanta and Raja Yoga. Yogani’s lessons and books are another.
Then, there’s a last quote placing the above in a wider, all-encompassing framework, which comes from Shaivism. Swami Shankarananda explains that Maharshi, despite the fact that his “personality and the tone of his teaching were intensely Vedantic - in this one thing, Ramana acted like a Shaivite since he followed the method of offering the highest upaya first” (the Yoga of Kashmir Shaivism, p. 275). He elaborates that a seeker and practitioner may not always understand or be suitable [ripeness, obstructions] for the highest teachings immediately (anupaya, no method, be as you are, I am That, etc.), and so other approaches down a progressive scale are instead made available. This is where all the limbs of yoga come in to complete the entire spectrum of transformation, and to certainly enable its furthest reaches as much as possible. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2013 : 12:05:40 AM
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Jesus, AumNaturel! You are quite the scholar! Bravo, man, bravo. Thank you for connecting these different teachings and illuminating the seeming disparities.
After reading your post, I placed some soft focus in the heart, and I heard the sound of trumpets, then I saw an image of horses galloping, then my body got catapulted into the sand--head-first, and then my body became a flagpole planted in the beach, which Sean Connery proceeded to pick up and hurl at a red dragon, and then I realized I was Sean Connery, the red dragon, the flagpole, and everything else, so I bailed out of the vision. And I share this...because...perhaps you will find some amusement in my lunacy.
Unity! Strength! Wisdom!  |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2013 : 07:23:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
After reading your post, I placed some soft focus in the heart, and I heard the sound of trumpets, then I saw an image of horses galloping, then my body got catapulted into the sand--head-first, and then my body became a flagpole planted in the beach, which Sean Connery proceeded to pick up and hurl at a red dragon, and then I realized I was Sean Connery, the red dragon, the flagpole, and everything else, so I bailed out of the vision. And I share this...because...perhaps you will find some amusement in my lunacy.
There is scenery and then there is scenery.
quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
He elaborates that a seeker and practitioner may not always understand or be suitable [ripeness, obstructions] for the highest teachings immediately (anupaya, no method, be as you are, I am That, etc.), and so other approaches down a progressive scale are instead made available. This is where all the limbs of yoga come in to complete the entire spectrum of transformation, and to certainly enable its furthest reaches as much as possible.
Wow, the whole summary is fantastic Aum! Thank you also for providing the references - very helpful.
Recently, I was reading a bit about Aghoras - those that practice tantra in an extreme form (practices that can make most of us queasy), the other end of the spectrum. It is humbling and beautiful to see how many paths there are to God - as many as there are beings. In every case, Ishwara experiencing Itself in that unique and peculiar way.
Love. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2013 : 8:40:32 PM
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Bodhi, that's some refinement of the senses alright. Lunacy wouldn't have a bail-out.
Kami, glad it was useful, and do post what you discover about the Aghoras.
Love to you both. |
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Jiri Vacek (Self-Realized Satguru)
