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pulgasari
Korea
16 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 05 2013 : 04:57:20 AM
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hi there,
i'm pretty new to ayp and i have been practicing the meditation every day for a few of weeks now however i'm having an issue with the mantra that i was hoping someone may be able to help me with.
i am finding that i start repeating 'i am' for a few minutes in my head, and then after a few minutes i try to allow the mantra happen by itself but then what always happens is that the mantra will first change from 'i am' to 'am' and then into a humming sound or sometimes a strange pulsing feeling in my head. and by the time this happens i am thinking that i am no longer thinking the mantra and i begin to think that i should reintroduce it.
so this is the question i have, should i reintroduce the mantra in a fresh form or should i just continue to follow the humming sound/pulsing sensation in my head
pulgasari |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4431 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2013 : 05:17:28 AM
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Hi Pulgasari,
It is fine if the mantra changes during the course of the meditation. You can allow that to happen. Simply keep coming back to the mantra whenever you find you are off it.
It is here in lesson 13:
quote:
Do not resist if the mantra tends to become less distinct. Thinking the mantra does not have to be with clear pronunciation. I AM can be experienced at many levels in your mind and nervous system. When you come back to it, come back to a level that is comfortable, not straining for either a clear or fuzzy pronunciation.
The mantra can become a continuous sound or vibration, or become so faint you can hardly hear it. The procedure of the meditation remains the same.
Christi |
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apatride
New Caledonia
94 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2013 : 5:15:56 PM
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Yes it is fine. I got the same "problem" which is not one actually.
Sometimes the mantra changes by itself, recently I found it morphs to something like "panama-panama-panama-...", it took me a few minutes to realize it was not the ayam mantra but nevermind: I just got back to "ayam" when I realized it. It's all part of the meditation and it is not a problem. |
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pulgasari
Korea
16 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2013 : 12:23:25 AM
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I am a little confused by what you mean when you say;
"come back to the mantra whenever you find that you are off it"
If I realize the mantra has changed into "am, am, am" or a humming sound then does this mean that i am now off the mantra and should now come back to "I am"?
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2013 : 01:24:47 AM
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quote:
If I realize the mantra has changed into "am, am, am" or a humming sound then does this mean that i am now off the mantra and should now come back to "I am"?
correct
keeping in mind also that we dont mean the english meaning of "I am"...we only want the vibration...the mantra is AYAM
all the best |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4431 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2013 : 4:13:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pulgasari
I am a little confused by what you mean when you say;
"come back to the mantra whenever you find that you are off it"
If I realize the mantra has changed into "am, am, am" or a humming sound then does this mean that i am now off the mantra and should now come back to "I am"?
Hi Plugasari,
Being off the mantra means that your mind has wandered off into thoughts or feelings or sounds in the room and you are no longer paying attention to the mantra. So "coming back to the mantra" simply means bringing your attention back to the mantra. If the mantra is no longer going then it means reciting it again (picking it up again).
If the mantra has changed sound, or become more subtle or faint or changed into a humming sound, we come back to the mantra at the same level that it was at when we lost it and continue from there.
It is here in lesson 13:
"The goal is not to stay on it. The goal is to follow the simple procedure of thinking the mantra, losing it, and coming back to it when you find you have lost it. Do not resist if the mantra tends to become less distinct. Thinking the mantra does not have to be with clear pronunciation. I AM can be experienced at many levels in your mind and nervous system. When you come back to it, come back to a level that is comfortable, not straining for either a clear or fuzzy pronunciation."
http://www.aypsite.org/13.html
and again here in lesson 79:
"It is okay for the mantra to change, lengthen, shorten, etc, if it does so naturally during meditation. If meanings get attached to it, that is okay too. We just easily favor the procedure. We always easily come back to the original I AM. But there is a trick to that, mentioned in the lessons. You may be very settled and the mantra may be a very unclear pronunciation, very fuzzy. We will know that is it, and that is what we come back to, not forcing a clear pronunciation when it is naturally fuzzy. It is the easiest level to come back to, because that is where our attention left off. So we are starting a deeper cycle coming back to it that way, coming back to where it is, instead of trying to force it to a clear pronunciation. "
http://www.aypsite.org/79.html
So the answer is no, don't simply come back to "I am" if the mantra has evolved from there.
Christi |
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pulgasari
Korea
16 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2013 : 06:47:04 AM
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Ah' so I think I understand now.
It is o.k. if the mantra has changed, if it has become a long "I Am" or even a strange sounding "I Am" it is all o.k. however the moment I realize it is no longer "I Am" just return it to "I Am" even if it is back at a long or strange sounding level? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4431 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2013 : 07:11:45 AM
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Hi Pulgasari,
quote:
Ah' so I think I understand now.
It is o.k. if the mantra has changed, if it has become a long "I Am" or even a strange sounding "I Am" it is all o.k. however the moment I realize it is no longer "I Am" just return it to "I Am" even if it is back at a long or strange sounding level?
No. It is fine if the mantra changes sound and changes vibration during the course of the meditation. Once you realize you are off the mantra, you come back to the mantra at the level of fuzziness or pronunciation that it was at when you lost it. There is nothing in the instructions about noticing that it is not I AM any more and going back to the beginning again.
Christi |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2013 : 04:13:23 AM
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| I know we are supposed to favor the mantra, but do we favor the mantra per se, or do we favor the mantra with the feeling of how it affects our energy system? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4431 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2013 : 05:06:22 AM
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Hi Mykal,
You favor the mantra per se. If you find yourself noticing how the mantra is effecting your energy body then you come back to the mantra. That means that you favor the mantra with your attention. The effects on the energy body will be just the same, or stronger even as those effects are a bi-product of holding the attention on the mantra.
Christi |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2013 : 10:54:43 AM
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| Thank you Christi. |
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pulgasari
Korea
16 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2013 : 05:22:35 AM
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Actually I am still a little confused. It seems like different people are giving me different answers.
Apatride said 'Sometimes the mantra changes by itself, recently I found it morphs to something like "panama-panama-panama-...", it took me a few minutes to realize it was not the ayam mantra but nevermind: I just got back to "ayam" when I realized it. It's all part of the meditation and it is not a problem.'
Whereas Christi said 'The mantra can become a continuous sound or vibration, or become so faint you can hardly hear it. The procedure of the meditation remains the same.' and 'don't simply come back to "I am" if the mantra has evolved from there.'
These answers both seem to contradict each other and confuse me.
I understand that if I am off the mantra then I am not to return to the loud and clear pronunciation if it has evolved from there, I know that if the mantra became faint or fuzzy then I should return to the mantra in it's faint or fuzzy form. but I still have this question;
If the mantra becomes 'am, am, am' or a continuous sound or a vibration, then am I off the mantra?
Also I was wanting to know if it is ok for me to consiously be repeating the mantra or does it need to be fully automatic?
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2013 : 4:13:18 PM
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They are both correct. It is all about the progress of developing inner silence.
If you are like me and still fairly new to meditation. We are still in the beginning process. We go back to the mantra I am or ayum when we notice it has changed or we are off it. Our focus or attention has been brought back to it. Wherever we were is gone and we just go back to the mantra.
Christi is referring to when we have advanced more. I have only had it happen once so far. Where I felt the vibrations of I am. It is a much deeper level and he was referring to how to stay at that deeper level.
With regard to when it becomes "am, am, am" or "I, I,I,I". If our attention has been brought back to the fact that we are off the mantra then we go back to the mantra. It is no longer occurring without our focus brought to the fact that we are saying "I, I, I" and not "Ayum or I Am" . You are now thinking, debating with yourself. Should I say Ayum or stick with "I,I, I".
So we stop the debate and go back to Ayum or I Am.
I think that when the "I, I, I" thing happens to me it is just the brain trying to stay busy and my desire for the vibrations to happen again. Once I gently go back to "I Am" it always seems powerful I guess you could say. |
Edited by - jonesboy on May 19 2013 4:23:25 PM |
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pulgasari
Korea
16 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2013 : 09:06:11 AM
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But Christi also says the mantra can change into a continuous sound. Wouldn't this be off the mantra?
Also doesn't repeating the mantra always require some degree of volition? Or is it supposed to become a fully automatic procedure? |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2013 : 10:42:32 AM
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True, yes and yes 
The trick is to not sweat the small stuff. The mantra changing at least for me is down the road. When it happens it happens and I am not worried about it.
I say I AM. Not loud in my head or forceful. Just a gentle I am. I seem to have my own rythem for saying it. Your is yours and mine is mine. Just nice and easy. Don't think about it, don't worry about it. I have sessions where I say "I am" and bam I am gone somewhere.
What brings me back is my mind automaticly saying "I Am". Or sometimes I have noticed it has changed to something else. But my mind, my focus has noticed. Is starting to think about it so I just go back to "I Am"
I think the true trick is to surrender. Stop thinking to much. Don't worry about doing everything perfect. Just say "I Am" gently and then let things unfold as they will. |
Edited by - jonesboy on May 20 2013 10:46:26 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4431 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2013 : 11:27:07 AM
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Hi Pulgasari,
If in doubt, go back to the main lessons. This is from lesson 14:
http://www.aypsite.org/14.html
quote:
Yoga is a cleaning process. It is the cleaning that brings union between our inner and outer nature. During meditation, we know the process is working when we lose the mantra and later find ourselves in some other thoughts. During the meditation procedure, these other thoughts are a symptom that something has been released. Recognizing that, we go back to the mantra and continue the process. It is important to be easy with the mantra, not hanging on to a clear mental pronunciation, not hanging on to an unclear mental pronunciation, no hanging on at all, just easily being with it. If we develop this habit of easiness, the mind will settle into its silence naturally. It is a natural process of our mind we are facilitating.
And this is something that Yogani wrote in the forums:
quote:
Yes, the mantra is a thought, the thought of a sound, refining naturally again and again to faint fuzziness and inner silence.
Along the way, the mantra can be experienced in many ways -- visual, auditory, physical feeling, even smell or taste, according to purification and opening that is occurring. But we always easily come back to it as the thought of a sound at a level of clarity or faintness that is comfortable at whatever level we happen to be at the moment in the mind. [Yogani]
Try not to over-analyse the experience of meditation. Just let it be simple and let the mantra carry you inward to silence. The mantra will change and evolve with time and it is fine to let that happen.
quote:
Pulgasari wrote:
Also doesn't repeating the mantra always require some degree of volition? Or is it supposed to become a fully automatic procedure?
Sometimes there will be volition involved and at other times it becomes an automatic procedure, but it isn't important. The only important thing is to come back to the mantra when you find yourself distracted by other things or lost in silence.
Christi |
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pulgasari
Korea
16 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2013 : 11:24:40 PM
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Maybe I am concerning myself with small stuff but I can't help but still feel confused with this.
Jonesboy it seems like you are saying that when you notice the mantra has changed you gently bring it back to 'I AM'
Christi it seems like you are saying the mantra will change over time and it is fine to let that happen.
Sometimes I find during my meditation that if I surrender my volition and allow it to become automatic then my mantra will slowly change from 'ayam' to a humming sound.
When I notice this should I gently come back to 'ayam' or should I just continue with the humming sound?
Also does it matter if I am surrendering volition or not? Should I be aiming for an automatic mantra? |
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rce
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2013 : 08:48:40 AM
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Hi pulgasari! I don't post much here, but I will tell you what I do in this situation.
If I recognize the sound being repeated as AYAM, I continue with it. If the sound is not recognizable as AYAM, I return to a level of AYAM that feels right.
So, for me, if the mantra had changed to AM,AM..., I would continue. If the mantra had changed to a buzz, I would go back to AYAM.
But I don't worry about which is right. Meditation is simple. Just make your best guess in a fraction of a second and go with it. With a little practice, you will find that it all happens effortlessly with no thought.
As I said, this is what I do. If it is not right, I'm sure someone will correct me. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2013 : 12:52:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pulgasari
Sometimes I find during my meditation that if I surrender my volition and allow it to become automatic then my mantra will slowly change from 'ayam' to a humming sound.
When I notice this should I gently come back to 'ayam' or should I just continue with the humming sound?
Also does it matter if I am surrendering volition or not? Should I be aiming for an automatic mantra?
If 'ayum' is changing in a natural manner then that is fine. It is when you start to think about it. You are now out of the moment so to speak. So you would go back to 'ayum'. Just think of 'ayum' as a way to quiet the mind. One moment it is automatic the next you are thinking about it. That is when you go back to the mantra.
Now I am new to yoga and meditation. From what I understand we go into our sessions with no desires. No wants, which is hard to do. Who doesn't want bliss or vibrations or visions to affirm everything. To experience more and to know it is true. It is the surrender of desire of the ego that we are doing.
It is hard not to over analyze every aspect of what we are doing. But that is also part of the lesson we need to learn. To just let go and to let it be. |
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pulgasari
Korea
16 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2013 : 04:50:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
If 'ayum' is changing in a natural manner then that is fine. It is when you start to think about it. You are now out of the moment so to speak. So you would go back to 'ayum'. Just think of 'ayum' as a way to quiet the mind. One moment it is automatic the next you are thinking about it. That is when you go back to the mantra.
Now I am new to yoga and meditation. From what I understand we go into our sessions with no desires. No wants, which is hard to do. Who doesn't want bliss or vibrations or visions to affirm everything. To experience more and to know it is true. It is the surrender of desire of the ego that we are doing.
It is hard not to over analyze every aspect of what we are doing. But that is also part of the lesson we need to learn. To just let go and to let it be.
So if you notice that you are starting to think about it do you go back to 'ayam' in it's original form?
or do you reintroduce it at the level it was at when the thoughts interrupted?
Sometimes I have had meditations where the mantra will simply become quiet and unclear but I can still recognize it as the mantra so I just introduce it back at this level.
Whereas other times the mantra changes into a continuous 'hum' sound. I feels as though it has lost it's 'ayam' quality.. so i'm guessing at this point I am off the mantra and should go back to the last point where I could recognize it as 'ayam' |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2013 : 10:20:21 AM
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Yes you reintroduce it at the level you are at if possible. It takes practice.
I think you got it. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4431 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2013 : 4:12:17 PM
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Hi Pulgasari and all,
quote:
So if you notice that you are starting to think about it do you go back to 'ayam' in it's original form?
or do you reintroduce it at the level it was at when the thoughts interrupted?
Sometimes I have had meditations where the mantra will simply become quiet and unclear but I can still recognize it as the mantra so I just introduce it back at this level.
Whereas other times the mantra changes into a continuous 'hum' sound. I feels as though it has lost it's 'ayam' quality.. so i'm guessing at this point I am off the mantra and should go back to the last point where I could recognize it as 'ayam'
There is nothing in the main lessons that says :"If you no longer recognise the mantra as AYAM anymore, then go back to the point where you last thought is sounded like AYAM".
What it does say is that it is fine for the mantra to change and that this will happen and there is no need to stop that from happening. So if the mantra changes into a continuous humming sound, that is fine and you can simply be with that. If that is happening and you lose the mantra either into thought or into silence, as soon as you realise that you are off the mantra you come back to the mantra at the same level that you left it at. That means as a continuous humming noise in that case.
There is no need to analyse the mantra at any point during meditation to decide if it sounds closer to one sound or another or to change it in any way.
I hope that clarifies the issue.
Christi |
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rce
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2013 : 4:44:06 PM
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Hi and thanks, Christi!
I remembered a post Yogani made a couple of years ago that gave me the idea that humming was off the mantra. It took me a while to find it, but I read a lot of interesting posts while looking. Now I'm not too sure, but here is the quote.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
PS: If we notice that the mantra is rattling on by itself at some level in the mind, that is also a signal to easily bring our attention back to the mantra. The rattling on of our mind is not the mantra. Our attention easily with the mantra is the mantra.
I would appreciate your and others' opinions. Thanks in advance. |
Edited by - rce on May 23 2013 4:51:04 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4431 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2013 : 5:11:15 PM
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@ rce,
The "rattling on by itself" refers to the mantra happening automatically without our attention. It is the attention which needs to stay with the mantra for the process of meditation to work. So if the attention is off the mantra and the mantra is on 'auto repeat mode', and we notice that we are off it, then we come back to it. But we come back to it without changing it.
The key thing is attention. Bringing the attention repeatedly back to the mantra whenever we realize we are off it is dharana. When the attention rests completely with the mantra this is dhyana. Once dhyana is established it is a very short step into samadhi, and it is one which happens automatically. So attention is the key. Any analysing of the process will keep us on the level of the mind and will prevent the process of meditation from happening.
@Jonesboy
As regards desire, it is not desire that we need to transcend but rather unwholesome desire. There needs to be desire present in order to engage in spiritual practices at all. This is wholesome desire. As the mind becomes clearer, we can see which desires are unwholesome and lead to suffering, and they fall away naturally as the light of truth shines on them. But other desires remain, such as the desire to help others. In fact those desires can become much stronger than they were before.
Christi |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2013 : 9:39:00 PM
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| Thank you Christi |
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rce
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2013 : 10:47:22 PM
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| Thanks Christi, much appreciated. |
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beginner with meditation manta question
