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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 16 2006 : 02:58:38 AM
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I've long felt a disjoint with my surroundings. I first consciously noticed it when I was 9 and my parents took me to niagra falls. I waited eagerly for the trip, reading up on the falls, looking at Viewmaster tours, counting the days. We drove hours and hours. I got out of the car and...yup, there it was. Ten seconds later I was ready to get in the car and drive back home. I felt major existential angst about the whole thing. I just didn't understand how to take the snapshot of Niagra Falls I was experiencing through my eyes and make it meaningful for me in any way. I felt like I was watching it on tv - disconnected and cold. There's the falls over there, and here is me, over here. Here is ALWAYS me.
I've had this disconnect all my life. I never feel truly in the picture. At first, my sadhana seemed to cure this. I felt much more part of everything, having somewhat settled my mind and its inherent subject/object dualism. But now, I feel like I'm at a point in my sadhana where it's turning back again, though in a completely different way.
Today I was walking down the block on a beautiful day, and I was bringing a bad, bad work memory with me. I was inhabiting the memory, not alive in the moment of where I was. So I relaxed, I let go of all mentalizing, I just cast my molecules to the winds and surrendered. And I was taken deeply inside.
It felt fine, but I realized, with an almost nauseating lurch, that by turning inward I was STILL off the sidewalk (though I was deeply inside the moment). Or at least I lacked the self consciousness of walking on a sidewalk on a nice day (a self consciousness I realize yoga removes). I know it's spiritually correct, and I realize that the lurch was in my mind, not in my soul. But still, it felt vaguely troubling.
I was in London a few weeks ago, and I enjoyed the town, but I felt that I'd wasted time/energy/money in going there, because my silence is the same wherever I go. Wherever I go, here is always me.
Ramana Maharshi never left his village for decades. I keep discovering deeper and deeper confirmation that you don't need to go anywhere ever (though you may choose to do so with a playful shrug).
Yogani says that inner becomes outer and outer becomes inner. and I'm seeing that that's deeply true. So I'm not concerned about the fact that I went inside and seemed to lose the outside. The only problem, I think, was in my intellectual assessment of it all - in finding a lack. But still, I'm left a bit disoriented. As a kid, I was too in my head to be in the scene. Now I'm too in my heart and soul. It's stupendously different, but...man, will I ever find a point where I can just walk down the damn sidewalk like a normal person enjoying the day? Have I just gone from one extreme to the other, missing that point? It makes me sigh.
I already know Yogani's advice: as I continue my sadhana, I'll complete the journey from outer to inner and back to outer, eventually living in the world but without self-consciousness of source or object. So it's just a stage. But a stage that happens to push my buttons. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 16 2006 04:17:04 AM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2006 : 03:23:53 AM
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Hi Jim,
good luck on your walking the sidewalk ;-)
regards
Wolfgang |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2006 : 06:38:11 AM
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Hi Jim
Thanks for sharing.
quote:
I've long felt a disjoint with my surroundings.
Something must have preceeded this disconnection. Something that involves fear of being here. And this "something" probably happened very early in your life. Long before the age of 9. It doesn't have to be a big thing; it could be recurrent incidents of neglect in any way. (Every child goes through this - or else the world would be better off than it is right now). If you are open and vulnerable (as most children are early on) the impact of not being allowed to be yourself; or lacking mirroring for your soul as well as your body; will continue to control the way you allow yourself to fully be here now. The result of this, is - as you know - that we litterally retreat to our mind. Our mind becomes our greatest asset. But the mind cannot feel. It cannot love. It simply cannot be. Not by itself.
quote:
I just didn't understand how to take the snapshot of Niagra Falls I was experiencing through my eyes and make it meaningful for me in any way.
Yes. I can fully relate to this. Something as powerful and breathtaking as Niagra falls can never be prosessed mentally. Life cannot be grasped by our heads. (As you so often point out, Jim). The meaning of it is found in your heart (as you also say). Not your head. It is an experience, not a picture of the experience. If you are lost in angst; your heart is unavailable to the experience. The contraction of fear is what disconnects. Hence the feeling of coldness; as if watching a movie. The way I see it; it is actually impossible to be in a picture. A picture will always be over there.
I know i have wished for both, Jim. To both be, and at the same time see. It is such a safe dream; a comforting goal. But for me, it has turned out to be impossible. First I am. Then I see. And for me, the process of Yoga is a melting of the two into one. Then; and only then; the being and seeing is the same. Then there is no need for pictures.
quote:
So, I'm not concerned about the fact that I went inside and seemed to lose the outside. The only problem, I think, was in my intellectual assessment of it all - in finding a lack.
Are you sure that this is an intellectual assessment? To me, it feels existential. As if you are in a real feeling of lack. What happens if you fully allow this feeling of lack (disconnection) in stead of stopping at mentally labeling it as such?
quote:
But now, I feel like I'm at a point in my sadhana where it's turning back again, though in a completely different way.
So...am I reading you right when I say that you now (in this situation) feel "out of the picture" inside, as well as "outside"? If so - then is it really that different?
quote:
Or at least I lacked the self consciousness of walking on a sidewalk on a nice day (a self consciousness I realize yoga removes). I know it's spiritually correct, and I realize that the lurch was in my mind, not in my soul. But still, it felt vaguely troubling.
How do you know the day was beautiful, if you did not feel it? For you; the truth is; it wasn't. As you said, you were in a hurtfull memory. You were NOT here. I am just wondering ....when you "cast your molecules to the winds and surrendered"....do these molecules include some negative emotions? (In addition to the mentalizing). If so; then you suppress and surrender at the same time. Do you think this is possible?
Is there any such thing as "spiritual correctness"? Who will be the judge of that? If the lurch is in your mind; and you feel disconnected; your soul cannot touch you with its love. Then knowing this intellectually won't resolve the issue. Then really - you haven't realized it. You just tell yourself that you have understood. This "knowing" will only clutter inner space. Only fully experiencing the impact of the disconnection (which means allowing the soul to come through with the negative identification and the emotions that comes with it) will heal the split.
In me - this always engenders fear. I can get so afraid of love. Love throws me out of my mind (where i am "in control") - and leaves me naked, vulnerable and completely at the mercy of...that wich i don't know. It is always like dying. Dying to all that I think i know. And yet - by slowly allowing more and more of the fear to come through; more and more love can touch me.
Yoga enhances my capability of perceiving beauty. Beauty is always love. Truth. Yoga "removes" (or rather, transends) the intellect; not the one that perceives.
Jim
I don't know if this was in any way helpful to you.
But I wish you all the best.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2006 : 06:45:41 AM
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that wich I don't know.....
.....how funny.....i think i will leave the misspelling as it is. Cause that which i don't know is scary only because i imagine it to mean hurt in some ways.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2006 : 11:35:54 AM
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Jim,
Experiencing the world always includes the world and us. If there is a feeling that you're separate from the world, you can be sure it's an illusion. You say you feel the same anywhere you go...that isn't the end of yoga. You've only become a strong self...that self is still in the way of enlightenment. I'm sure you know this, though...you seem smart.
-Scott |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2006 : 12:45:13 PM
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I need a bit of clarity of mind to read through Katrine's posting, and I'm at work, chattily hashing away at my computer right now, so I'll wait till later to read and reply to that one (thanks, btw, Katrine).
Scott, I agree 100% with what you said. But I'm not sure this is the issue of separation. I feel connected...deeply. But the connection happens inside, not outside. Inside IS outside (the heart encompasses the universe), and I have, at times, clearly felt that. But I haven't worked through it all the way, so I'm still under the illusion that I've introverted when my stillness arises. Net result: I'm not on the sidewalk when I've melted into connection (because I'm inside) and I'm not on the sidewalk when I'm fighting the connection (i.e. fallen back into the conditioning of everyday life, identifying myself with mind and the mind's attachments...though more lightly and tenuously each day). So I'm almost never on the sidewalk!
The answer I suppose is in the zen saying: before spiritual work, mountains are mountains and chopping wood is chopping wood. During spiritual work, mountains are not mountains and chopping wood is not chopping wood. After realization, mountains are mountains and chopping wood is chopping wood. I'm in a particularly disorienting stage of "during". |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 16 2006 12:48:20 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2006 : 12:58:20 PM
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Thanks Jim and Katrine for helping me be more naked and relaxed, and Scott for your wisdom.
Your descriptions and explanations are wonderful 
Louis |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2006 : 10:41:37 AM
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The first time I remember being there and not being a part of my life was when I was 7. I had a very traumatic experience.. and I remember withdrawing myself from the situation. After that I had never really been a part of anything in my life. I always thought I was very self centered. I was never happy with anything.. always looking for something .. and never a part of anything... always had a lot of friends and was very popular.. and yet always separate.. like I had my guard up.. protecting something.
With AYP, for the first time I felt close to my kids.. for the first time I felt connected.. felt this extreme love.. finally I was a part of their lives. But now.. I seem to have withdrawn myself into myself again. Now I do a lot with my family, community, friends.. but I am not a part of it again. The only difference is, I am not looking for anything anymore... I can neither feel extreme happiness or sorrow or love or any emotions. I feel very content in my inner silence..
I hope this is a phase. I would love to be a part of my world again.. I would love to feel the connection I felt when I started AYP. I would love to be in the picture. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2006 : 5:13:44 PM
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Jim,
quote:
I feel connected...deeply. But the connection happens inside, not outside.
I don't think it's inner silence to be feeling connected or disconnected, inside or outside. Inner silence is a cessation of those feelings and ideas.
quote:
Inside IS outside (the heart encompasses the universe), and I have, at times, clearly felt that. But I haven't worked through it all the way, so I'm still under the illusion that I've introverted when my stillness arises.
Anything you have to work through, like the feeling of inside being outside, or the heart encompassing the universe, is an illusion. Inner silence makes these illusions disappear...because it's silence!
quote:
Net result: I'm not on the sidewalk when I've melted into connection (because I'm inside)
If your "inner" is "silenced" when you're walking on a sidewalk, then you will be walking on the sidewalk. When you don't have inner silence, you'll be melting into an inner connection, and you'll seem to not be on the sidewalk. Being inside and introverted is inner noise, and not silence.
quote:
and I'm not on the sidewalk when I'm fighting the connection (i.e. fallen back into the conditioning of everyday life, identifying myself with mind and the mind's attachments...though more lightly and tenuously each day).
If you try to fight to stay inside and be connected to the witnessing, you'll fail. I don't think that being inside is enlightenment, or inner silence. The world will pour back into your awareness quickly.
If you are fighting to stay outside, you'll fail. You'll find that you are always there...as you have at Niagara Falls. To get inner silence, both inside and outside need to be silenced. That's why we meditate.
Our object of meditation is "inside". We close our eyes, forget about our bodies and think "I am". But we come to realize that it's also "outside" of us. By saying "I am", we're bringing the attention away from inner silence, into inner noise. When it becomes fuzzy, and eventually drops, we are in inner silence so long as nothing else arises.
The object of meditation is the same to us as the sidewalk. It's a thing in your consciousness.
If everything stops being in your consciousness for a moment of time, it'll be like you got knocked out by a big dude, and you'll become aware of everything again after a period of time. That's either sleep, a concussion or samadhi...but inner silence isn't ONLY that. Inner silence is when your mind isn't whirring, and your heart isn't worrying...you can still be walking on a sidewalk and have it. You won't be thinking "I'm not walking on a sidewalk."
Liberated in life.
Shanti,
quote:
The first time I remember being there and not being a part of my life was when I was 7. I had a very traumatic experience.. and I remember withdrawing myself from the situation. After that I had never really been a part of anything in my life. I always thought I was very self centered. I was never happy with anything.. always looking for something .. and never a part of anything... always had a lot of friends and was very popular.. and yet always separate.. like I had my guard up.. protecting something.
That seems pretty normal for most people. At least, I can relate to it. I think any spiritual seeker, or finder, could relate.
quote:
With AYP, for the first time I felt close to my kids.. for the first time I felt connected.. felt this extreme love.. finally I was a part of their lives. But now.. I seem to have withdrawn myself into myself again. Now I do a lot with my family, community, friends.. but I am not a part of it again. The only difference is, I am not looking for anything anymore... I can neither feel extreme happiness or sorrow or love or any emotions. I feel very content in my inner silence..
I don't think AYP is the cause of feeling close or feeling apart from people and things in the world. Of course, these are powerful techniques, and you (as well as I) value them highly...it's easy to think they're changing our lives. I don't think that's taking a balanced enough approach to it, though.
Doing the practices is just doing the practices...any extra things that occur with the practices is just purification or scenery. Thinking that you're going more inside yourself isn't the end of the practices. It's purification that you feel like you're becoming more introverted. It isn't a sign of enlightenment.
quote:
I hope this is a phase. I would love to be a part of my world again.. I would love to feel the connection I felt when I started AYP. I would love to be in the picture.
It's a phase...anything that begins will end. Do you see how this is kind of cyclic; feeling connected, then disconnected, then connected and now disconnected again? It is illusory, and these practices will dispell that illusion.
You are always part of the world, and these ideas and feelings you're having is the dirt that we clean off our mirror when we practice. Of course you're part of the world. You don't wake up in heaven everyday, do you? I'm pretty sure you wake up in the world, and your kids are there.
Anyway I'm not the best at explaining things, and I hope this has helped.
-Scott |
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Hunter
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2006 : 10:24:47 PM
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Shanti,
Your post got me thinking about my extended family and now I have a question for everyone related to disconnect, "being in the picture", etc. A couple of years ago when I turned 18 I felt an inclination to consistently meditate twice daily, ignorantly charging ahead quickly and becoming quite intense. Anyway, I became quieter and was observing people more instead of interacting and talking with them, mainly with my extended family members. Unknowingly(at the time), I irritated and offended some of the family. Looking back, I think I was giving the impression that I didn't want to have anything to do with them. Yogani's lessons have made me understand the importance of self-pacing, recognizing symptoms, and so, so much more...
How do I apologize for my behavior? |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2006 : 01:07:56 AM
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I dont know whether its spiritual or not but I usually feel very distanced or disconnected too. Sometimes I try to imagine what if something happens to my loved ones. People who I know are really close to me. I really feel nothing much changes in my life. It wont touch me much inside. Even in some pressure situations something inside me seems to feel aloof and happy that its not being touched. May be it is selfishness and not related to spirituality.
An example: When I see kids I really dont feel as much love as some ppl do. I mean I like them but not as much as some ppl love kids.
-Near |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2006 : 03:39:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hunter
How do I apologize for my behavior?
I wouldn't contentrate on how to apologize, you need to
first establish a good base of communication with them.
Try to meet one by one and have a talk with them,
explain to them how you are doing,
ask them how they are doing and see from there
how deep a communication can be established.
Most of the time our "wrong-doings" are much worse
for ourselves then they are for others.
regards
Wolfgang |
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Hunter
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2006 : 10:58:34 AM
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Wolfgang,
I like that approach. Establishing communication seems like it will feel much more natural. Thank you. -Hunter |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2006 : 6:07:30 PM
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I think connection/disconnection and bliss/disatisfaction are two different dimensions possibly.
The description reminds me of a sort of "spiritual nausea" that I get when I don't self pace. |
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Being in the Picture
