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AYPforum
351 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 07 2005 : 5:46:23 PM
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535 From: "tom_orgad" <orgad1@bezeqint.net>
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:26pm
Subject: Blockage tom_orgad
Offline
Send Email
Hello,
Following Jim's posting, I would like to share with you a problem I
have been facing during meditation. I will appreciate to receive any
advice or comments.
I have been practicing following the AYP lessons for a little under
a year now. I believe that on certain levels my progression has been
rather rapid - I feel as if a notable presence of inner silence is
growing within me.
However, at a different, deeper level, it seems that I haven't
progressed at all - there is always, even at the deepest moments of
meditation, a steady presence of the mind which I can't get rid of.
It is there, always verbally aware of itself, as if constnatly
screening and seprating myself from the inner silence. At other
times, when not expressing itself in words, it is there in the form
of distant imagery. Be it in words or images, its common denominator
is that I always see or hear myself following the mantra from a
certain distance, as if always aware of myself being meditating at
the moment.
Therefore, my meditation is never trully deep.I never manage to
really delve into the peaceful meditative experience. For example,
even the contents of this mail had been phrased in my mind during a
relatively deep meditation sitting. Also, every slightest noise
ditracts me, and I very easily get out of meditation (barely needing
any rest at all). Always remaining superficial.
I know the usual advice is to realize the shallowness of the
chatter, simply relax, follow the mantra and let go. The problem is
that I have been doing this for nearly a year, without seeing any
results. On the profound level, I appear to be stepping in the same
place.
I will be grateful for any suggestions of how to remove this
blockage.
Thanks,
Tom
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
<jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
>
>
> I just realized something after a lifetime of meditation that's
completely transformed
> everything for me. I'm a little ashamed to say it, because I'm
betting it's the most obvious,
> trivial, beginner observation imaginable. No doubt many of you
figured this out in your
> first few sessions. It's a "duh". But I offer this for anyone
who's been struggling with the
> same block, and I rush to note that it has nothing to do with AYP,
and, indeed, is exactly
> the sort of mental construct intrusion that's supposed to send us
gently back to mantra
> (observing yourself meditating - even extracting deep wisdom from
what you're
> experiencing - is a trap of the mind).
>
> when you're in deep meditation, with most of the more superficial
chatter stilled, and your
> mind finds you and blindsides you out of nowhere ("shoot! did I
turn off my stove??"), it
> doesn't have to bob you all the way back up to the surface and
make you have to start
> from scratch. Even if your peace feels utterly punctured, you're
not as far away from
> returning to where you were as you think. In fact, you're just a
hair of a notch away. The
> notion that you've been totally disrupted, and need to go drill
all the way back down again
> is just another trick of the mind (which has endless tricks, of
course....which is why we
> work to bypass it rather than do battle with it!).
>
> Even if you're in a holy, still moment and your mind shoots to the
dinner reservation you
> forgot to make, paradise is not lost. Trust that you've drifted
but a millimeter. Trust the
> state, trust the mantra, trust everything - it's just been a
flicker. The safety net is closer
> than you think.
>
> Man, this is powerful......for me, at least
536 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:37pm
Subject: Re: Blockage jim_and_his_...
Offline
Send Email
AYP response: don't sweat it. Keep going. You're not trying to still the mind, you're trying
to purify the nervous system, so don't judge and just let the mantra do its work, which it
actually does more thoroughly when you drift and come back. That's the beauty and
simplicity of the practice.
My response: you think you see your mind remaining there. But it's your mind doing the
seeing. Your mind can create existential loops for you (it actually thinks it's being helpful,
trying to guide you through this spirituality thing just as it's guided you faithfully through
so many other projects!) that you can never navigate or prevent.
Don't fight it, don't make it go away. Let it do its thing...let it conjure up marching bands
and ex girlfriends....let it all play on but OPT OUT by just existing in the mantra. If you get
frustrated, mantra. If you get distracted, mantra. If you can't quiet your mind, mantra. If
you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!", mantra. If you realize that by saying
that, your mind has fooled you, mantra. If you have an incredible spiritual realization you
need to remember for later, mantra. If you're remembering this encouragement I'm giving
you and it feels really helpful, mantra. If you say to yourself "Must go to mantra!", mantra.
That's the way. Don't stop. Everything but God is noise. And God's even the noise. But
don't think about it, this isn't an intellectual pursuit, so don't collect insights - that's just
more stimulation (that's why wise men just giggle when you ask them most questions). I'm
not so wise, so instead of giggling I'll shout once again: MANTRA!
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "tom_orgad" <orgad1@b...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Following Jim's posting, I would like to share with you a problem I
> have been facing during meditation. I will appreciate to receive any
> advice or comments.
>
> I have been practicing following the AYP lessons for a little under
> a year now. I believe that on certain levels my progression has been
> rather rapid - I feel as if a notable presence of inner silence is
> growing within me.
>
> However, at a different, deeper level, it seems that I haven't
> progressed at all - there is always, even at the deepest moments of
> meditation, a steady presence of the mind which I can't get rid of.
> It is there, always verbally aware of itself, as if constnatly
> screening and seprating myself from the inner silence. At other
> times, when not expressing itself in words, it is there in the form
> of distant imagery. Be it in words or images, its common denominator
> is that I always see or hear myself following the mantra from a
> certain distance, as if always aware of myself being meditating at
> the moment.
>
> Therefore, my meditation is never trully deep.I never manage to
> really delve into the peaceful meditative experience. For example,
> even the contents of this mail had been phrased in my mind during a
> relatively deep meditation sitting. Also, every slightest noise
> ditracts me, and I very easily get out of meditation (barely needing
> any rest at all). Always remaining superficial.
>
> I know the usual advice is to realize the shallowness of the
> chatter, simply relax, follow the mantra and let go. The problem is
> that I have been doing this for nearly a year, without seeing any
> results. On the profound level, I appear to be stepping in the same
> place.
>
> I will be grateful for any suggestions of how to remove this
> blockage.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I just realized something after a lifetime of meditation that's
> completely transformed
> > everything for me. I'm a little ashamed to say it, because I'm
> betting it's the most obvious,
> > trivial, beginner observation imaginable. No doubt many of you
> figured this out in your
> > first few sessions. It's a "duh". But I offer this for anyone
> who's been struggling with the
> > same block, and I rush to note that it has nothing to do with AYP,
> and, indeed, is exactly
> > the sort of mental construct intrusion that's supposed to send us
> gently back to mantra
> > (observing yourself meditating - even extracting deep wisdom from
> what you're
> > experiencing - is a trap of the mind).
> >
> > when you're in deep meditation, with most of the more superficial
> chatter stilled, and your
> > mind finds you and blindsides you out of nowhere ("shoot! did I
> turn off my stove??"), it
> > doesn't have to bob you all the way back up to the surface and
> make you have to start
> > from scratch. Even if your peace feels utterly punctured, you're
> not as far away from
> > returning to where you were as you think. In fact, you're just a
> hair of a notch away. The
> > notion that you've been totally disrupted, and need to go drill
> all the way back down again
> > is just another trick of the mind (which has endless tricks, of
> course....which is why we
> > work to bypass it rather than do battle with it!).
> >
> > Even if you're in a holy, still moment and your mind shoots to the
> dinner reservation you
> > forgot to make, paradise is not lost. Trust that you've drifted
> but a millimeter. Trust the
> > state, trust the mantra, trust everything - it's just been a
> flicker. The safety net is closer
> > than you think.
> >
> > Man, this is powerful......for me, at least
539 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:31pm
Subject: Re: Blockage nearoanoke
Offline
Send Email
>>If you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!", mantra.
Very Well put jim.
There lies the answer tom. There are only two states in meditation.
The one away from mantra and in mantra. Thats it. Dont analyze
further. Whatever be the thought that is NOT mantra go back to
mantra (whenever u realize that you are off)
Love,
Near
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
<jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
>
>
> AYP response: don't sweat it. Keep going. You're not trying to
still the mind, you're trying
> to purify the nervous system, so don't judge and just let the
mantra do its work, which it
> actually does more thoroughly when you drift and come back. That's
the beauty and
> simplicity of the practice.
>
> My response: you think you see your mind remaining there. But it's
your mind doing the
> seeing. Your mind can create existential loops for you (it
actually thinks it's being helpful,
> trying to guide you through this spirituality thing just as it's
guided you faithfully through
> so many other projects!) that you can never navigate or prevent.
>
> Don't fight it, don't make it go away. Let it do its thing...let
it conjure up marching bands
> and ex girlfriends....let it all play on but OPT OUT by just
existing in the mantra. If you get
> frustrated, mantra. If you get distracted, mantra. If you can't
quiet your mind, mantra. If
> you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!", mantra. If
you realize that by saying
> that, your mind has fooled you, mantra. If you have an incredible
spiritual realization you
> need to remember for later, mantra. If you're remembering this
encouragement I'm giving
> you and it feels really helpful, mantra. If you say to
yourself "Must go to mantra!", mantra.
> That's the way. Don't stop. Everything but God is noise. And God's
even the noise. But
> don't think about it, this isn't an intellectual pursuit, so don't
collect insights - that's just
> more stimulation (that's why wise men just giggle when you ask
them most questions). I'm
> not so wise, so instead of giggling I'll shout once again: MANTRA!
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "tom_orgad" <orgad1@b...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Following Jim's posting, I would like to share with you a
problem I
> > have been facing during meditation. I will appreciate to receive
any
> > advice or comments.
> >
> > I have been practicing following the AYP lessons for a little
under
> > a year now. I believe that on certain levels my progression has
been
> > rather rapid - I feel as if a notable presence of inner silence
is
> > growing within me.
> >
> > However, at a different, deeper level, it seems that I haven't
> > progressed at all - there is always, even at the deepest moments
of
> > meditation, a steady presence of the mind which I can't get rid
of.
> > It is there, always verbally aware of itself, as if constnatly
> > screening and seprating myself from the inner silence. At other
> > times, when not expressing itself in words, it is there in the
form
> > of distant imagery. Be it in words or images, its common
denominator
> > is that I always see or hear myself following the mantra from a
> > certain distance, as if always aware of myself being meditating
at
> > the moment.
> >
> > Therefore, my meditation is never trully deep.I never manage
to
> > really delve into the peaceful meditative experience. For
example,
> > even the contents of this mail had been phrased in my mind
during a
> > relatively deep meditation sitting. Also, every slightest noise
> > ditracts me, and I very easily get out of meditation (barely
needing
> > any rest at all). Always remaining superficial.
> >
> > I know the usual advice is to realize the shallowness of the
> > chatter, simply relax, follow the mantra and let go. The problem
is
> > that I have been doing this for nearly a year, without seeing
any
> > results. On the profound level, I appear to be stepping in the
same
> > place.
> >
> > I will be grateful for any suggestions of how to remove this
> > blockage.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I just realized something after a lifetime of meditation
that's
> > completely transformed
> > > everything for me. I'm a little ashamed to say it, because I'm
> > betting it's the most obvious,
> > > trivial, beginner observation imaginable. No doubt many of you
> > figured this out in your
> > > first few sessions. It's a "duh". But I offer this for anyone
> > who's been struggling with the
> > > same block, and I rush to note that it has nothing to do with
AYP,
> > and, indeed, is exactly
> > > the sort of mental construct intrusion that's supposed to send
us
> > gently back to mantra
> > > (observing yourself meditating - even extracting deep wisdom
from
> > what you're
> > > experiencing - is a trap of the mind).
> > >
> > > when you're in deep meditation, with most of the more
superficial
> > chatter stilled, and your
> > > mind finds you and blindsides you out of nowhere ("shoot! did
I
> > turn off my stove??"), it
> > > doesn't have to bob you all the way back up to the surface and
> > make you have to start
> > > from scratch. Even if your peace feels utterly punctured,
you're
> > not as far away from
> > > returning to where you were as you think. In fact, you're just
a
> > hair of a notch away. The
> > > notion that you've been totally disrupted, and need to go
drill
> > all the way back down again
> > > is just another trick of the mind (which has endless tricks,
of
> > course....which is why we
> > > work to bypass it rather than do battle with it!).
> > >
> > > Even if you're in a holy, still moment and your mind shoots to
the
> > dinner reservation you
> > > forgot to make, paradise is not lost. Trust that you've
drifted
> > but a millimeter. Trust the
> > > state, trust the mantra, trust everything - it's just been a
> > flicker. The safety net is closer
> > > than you think.
> > >
> > > Man, this is powerful......for me, at least
540 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:34pm
Subject: Re: Blockage jim_and_his_...
Offline
Send Email
One piece of encouragement, Tom. When you peel back the edge, you'll see that your mind
is just really nothing of any substance. It's a loud, crackling transistor radio. It's 500 lines
of computer code. This awesome entity with which you've been grappling (and, more
shockingly, the entity you've been considering to be your self all these years) is
prepostorously puny and about two microns thin. Our supposed captor is a half assed
clunky slide projector, but we're just not used to looking past it. It's very Wizard of Oz. The
whole thing is truly the ultimate shaggy dog joke (and the punch line will really blow your
mind).
But forget that. Cling to mantra like the demons of hell are snapping at your shins.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...> wrote:
>
>
> >>If you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!", mantra.
>
> Very Well put jim.
>
> There lies the answer tom. There are only two states in meditation.
> The one away from mantra and in mantra. Thats it. Dont analyze
> further. Whatever be the thought that is NOT mantra go back to
> mantra (whenever u realize that you are off)
>
> Love,
> Near
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > AYP response: don't sweat it. Keep going. You're not trying to
> still the mind, you're trying
> > to purify the nervous system, so don't judge and just let the
> mantra do its work, which it
> > actually does more thoroughly when you drift and come back. That's
> the beauty and
> > simplicity of the practice.
> >
> > My response: you think you see your mind remaining there. But it's
> your mind doing the
> > seeing. Your mind can create existential loops for you (it
> actually thinks it's being helpful,
> > trying to guide you through this spirituality thing just as it's
> guided you faithfully through
> > so many other projects!) that you can never navigate or prevent.
> >
> > Don't fight it, don't make it go away. Let it do its thing...let
> it conjure up marching bands
> > and ex girlfriends....let it all play on but OPT OUT by just
> existing in the mantra. If you get
> > frustrated, mantra. If you get distracted, mantra. If you can't
> quiet your mind, mantra. If
> > you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!", mantra. If
> you realize that by saying
> > that, your mind has fooled you, mantra. If you have an incredible
> spiritual realization you
> > need to remember for later, mantra. If you're remembering this
> encouragement I'm giving
> > you and it feels really helpful, mantra. If you say to
> yourself "Must go to mantra!", mantra.
> > That's the way. Don't stop. Everything but God is noise. And God's
> even the noise. But
> > don't think about it, this isn't an intellectual pursuit, so don't
> collect insights - that's just
> > more stimulation (that's why wise men just giggle when you ask
> them most questions). I'm
> > not so wise, so instead of giggling I'll shout once again: MANTRA!
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "tom_orgad" <orgad1@b...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Following Jim's posting, I would like to share with you a
> problem I
> > > have been facing during meditation. I will appreciate to receive
> any
> > > advice or comments.
> > >
> > > I have been practicing following the AYP lessons for a little
> under
> > > a year now. I believe that on certain levels my progression has
> been
> > > rather rapid - I feel as if a notable presence of inner silence
> is
> > > growing within me.
> > >
> > > However, at a different, deeper level, it seems that I haven't
> > > progressed at all - there is always, even at the deepest moments
> of
> > > meditation, a steady presence of the mind which I can't get rid
> of.
> > > It is there, always verbally aware of itself, as if constnatly
> > > screening and seprating myself from the inner silence. At other
> > > times, when not expressing itself in words, it is there in the
> form
> > > of distant imagery. Be it in words or images, its common
> denominator
> > > is that I always see or hear myself following the mantra from a
> > > certain distance, as if always aware of myself being meditating
> at
> > > the moment.
> > >
> > > Therefore, my meditation is never trully deep.I never manage
> to
> > > really delve into the peaceful meditative experience. For
> example,
> > > even the contents of this mail had been phrased in my mind
> during a
> > > relatively deep meditation sitting. Also, every slightest noise
> > > ditracts me, and I very easily get out of meditation (barely
> needing
> > > any rest at all). Always remaining superficial.
> > >
> > > I know the usual advice is to realize the shallowness of the
> > > chatter, simply relax, follow the mantra and let go. The problem
> is
> > > that I have been doing this for nearly a year, without seeing
> any
> > > results. On the profound level, I appear to be stepping in the
> same
> > > place.
> > >
> > > I will be grateful for any suggestions of how to remove this
> > > blockage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Tom
> > >
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > > <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I just realized something after a lifetime of meditation
> that's
> > > completely transformed
> > > > everything for me. I'm a little ashamed to say it, because I'm
> > > betting it's the most obvious,
> > > > trivial, beginner observation imaginable. No doubt many of you
> > > figured this out in your
> > > > first few sessions. It's a "duh". But I offer this for anyone
> > > who's been struggling with the
> > > > same block, and I rush to note that it has nothing to do with
> AYP,
> > > and, indeed, is exactly
> > > > the sort of mental construct intrusion that's supposed to send
> us
> > > gently back to mantra
> > > > (observing yourself meditating - even extracting deep wisdom
> from
> > > what you're
> > > > experiencing - is a trap of the mind).
> > > >
> > > > when you're in deep meditation, with most of the more
> superficial
> > > chatter stilled, and your
> > > > mind finds you and blindsides you out of nowhere ("shoot! did
> I
> > > turn off my stove??"), it
> > > > doesn't have to bob you all the way back up to the surface and
> > > make you have to start
> > > > from scratch. Even if your peace feels utterly punctured,
> you're
> > > not as far away from
> > > > returning to where you were as you think. In fact, you're just
> a
> > > hair of a notch away. The
> > > > notion that you've been totally disrupted, and need to go
> drill
> > > all the way back down again
> > > > is just another trick of the mind (which has endless tricks,
> of
> > > course....which is why we
> > > > work to bypass it rather than do battle with it!).
> > > >
> > > > Even if you're in a holy, still moment and your mind shoots to
> the
> > > dinner reservation you
> > > > forgot to make, paradise is not lost. Trust that you've
> drifted
> > > but a millimeter. Trust the
> > > > state, trust the mantra, trust everything - it's just been a
> > > flicker. The safety net is closer
> > > > than you think.
> > > >
> > > > Man, this is powerful......for me, at least
545 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 0:11am
Subject: Re: Blockage jim_and_his_...
Offline
Send Email
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@y...>
wrote:
> One piece of encouragement, Tom. When you peel back the edge, you'll see that your
mind
> is just really nothing of any substance. It's a loud, crackling transistor radio. It's 500
lines
> of computer code. This awesome entity with which you've been grappling (and, more
> shockingly, the entity you've been considering to be your self all these years) is
> prepostorously puny and about two microns thin. Our supposed captor is a half assed
> clunky slide projector, but we're just not used to looking past it. It's very Wizard of Oz.
The
> whole thing is truly the ultimate shaggy dog joke (and the punch line will really blow
your
> mind)
I'm having misgivings about having posted this. The other thoughts that I've posted to this
group are things I feel I understand pretty well. This, however, is new for me - it's very in-
progress. And as Yogani says, there's always a deeper layer of understanding. So while this
is the state of things as I currently understand them, tomorrow may bring a revamped
understanding.
Of course, the same is true of any word any of us ever says about anything in our lives! But
in future postings here, I'll try to restrain myself to issues where I have a higher confidence
in my understanding, even if such confidence is inherently questionable! In any event, it's
unnerving to discuss a path as you walk it; it's a bit like reviewing a book as you read it.
But since we're all reading together, and none of us is likely to ever reach the final page (if
there even is one), there may be no choice but to share what may eventually prove to be
in-progress theories and conjectures. Even with the most advanced among us, it's like
toddlers comparing notes about potty training: lots of evocative and immediate
recountings of experience but all somewhat lacking the perspective of big picture overview
:)
That was kind of abstruse, so I feel compelled to offer something more concrete. I was
having a LOT of trouble making the energy descend on my exhalation today during
pranayama. Then I noticed that my tongue wasn't touching the roof of my mouth (as it
usually is). When I corrected this, the problem was instantly fixed.
Kechari mudra (which involves connecting tongue to upper palate...but in the back of the
mouth and far beyond) is a relatively advanced practice, but a simple closure of tongue to
the bump behind the front teeth isn't particularly radical, so if you're having trouble with
the movement of energy, you may want to give it a try.
547 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:45am
Subject: Re: Blockage obsidian9999
Offline
Send Email
Tom,
some truly excellent responses there from Jim and Near.
In meditation you believe you face a block to your spiritual
progress, and you wonder how you will pass it. There is something
you want to get done --- pass this block so you can progress more
spiritually.
Near's response tells you that not all spiritual progress is made in
meditation, so not all of the "solution" to your problem lies there.
Jim's response is about meditation.
One of the paradoxes of meditation is that, whereas we may do it for
spiritual progress, when we meditate, we are not doing it 'for
spiritual progress' during the meditation.
If meditation were a discussion, *everything* would be off-topic.
In meditation, everything is off-topic, particularly spiritual
progress. This can be a little paradoxical and difficult for the
mind to grasp. After all, are we not meditating perhaps with the
intention of spiritual progress?
But we leave our intentions at the door, like you leave your shoes
at the door when you enter a temple.
And this great mind, which helps you in so many ways, including
perhaps guiding you to take up meditation, leading you to get
answers to its questions, this great mind, when you enter
meditation, is fired, dismissed. It is fired when you start
meditating, and can be re-appointed only when you finish. It was a
CEO in the boardroom one minute before you started meditating, and
the next minute, when you are on the cushion, it is a former CEO,
ten years after being fired, unwashed, homeless, and delusional,
thinking it is still CEO and making a mild nuisance of itself in the
temple muttering irrelevancies while you meditate. This is true even
if it thinks it is solving your spiritual problems.
There is a time and place for thinking and analysing and positioning
yourself in your spiritual life, within limits, but that happens
outside meditation, when the CEO is back in the boardroom.
Regards,
-David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
<jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
>
>
> One piece of encouragement, Tom. When you peel back the edge,
you'll see that your mind
> is just really nothing of any substance. It's a loud, crackling
transistor radio. It's 500 lines
> of computer code. This awesome entity with which you've been
grappling (and, more
> shockingly, the entity you've been considering to be your self all
these years) is
> prepostorously puny and about two microns thin. Our supposed captor
is a half assed
> clunky slide projector, but we're just not used to looking past it.
It's very Wizard of Oz. The
> whole thing is truly the ultimate shaggy dog joke (and the punch
line will really blow your
> mind).
>
> But forget that. Cling to mantra like the demons of hell are
snapping at your shins.
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > >>If you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!", mantra.
> >
> > Very Well put jim.
> >
> > There lies the answer tom. There are only two states in
meditation.
> > The one away from mantra and in mantra. Thats it. Dont analyze
> > further. Whatever be the thought that is NOT mantra go back to
> > mantra (whenever u realize that you are off)
> >
> > Love,
> > Near
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > AYP response: don't sweat it. Keep going. You're not trying to
> > still the mind, you're trying
> > > to purify the nervous system, so don't judge and just let the
> > mantra do its work, which it
> > > actually does more thoroughly when you drift and come back.
That's
> > the beauty and
> > > simplicity of the practice.
> > >
> > > My response: you think you see your mind remaining there. But
it's
> > your mind doing the
> > > seeing. Your mind can create existential loops for you (it
> > actually thinks it's being helpful,
> > > trying to guide you through this spirituality thing just as
it's
> > guided you faithfully through
> > > so many other projects!) that you can never navigate or prevent.
> > >
> > > Don't fight it, don't make it go away. Let it do its
thing...let
> > it conjure up marching bands
> > > and ex girlfriends....let it all play on but OPT OUT by just
> > existing in the mantra. If you get
> > > frustrated, mantra. If you get distracted, mantra. If you can't
> > quiet your mind, mantra. If
> > > you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!", mantra. If
> > you realize that by saying
> > > that, your mind has fooled you, mantra. If you have an
incredible
> > spiritual realization you
> > > need to remember for later, mantra. If you're remembering this
> > encouragement I'm giving
> > > you and it feels really helpful, mantra. If you say to
> > yourself "Must go to mantra!", mantra.
> > > That's the way. Don't stop. Everything but God is noise. And
God's
> > even the noise. But
> > > don't think about it, this isn't an intellectual pursuit, so
don't
> > collect insights - that's just
> > > more stimulation (that's why wise men just giggle when you ask
> > them most questions). I'm
> > > not so wise, so instead of giggling I'll shout once again:
MANTRA!
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "tom_orgad" <orgad1@b...>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > Following Jim's posting, I would like to share with you a
> > problem I
> > > > have been facing during meditation. I will appreciate to
receive
> > any
> > > > advice or comments.
> > > >
> > > > I have been practicing following the AYP lessons for a little
> > under
> > > > a year now. I believe that on certain levels my progression
has
> > been
> > > > rather rapid - I feel as if a notable presence of inner
silence
> > is
> > > > growing within me.
> > > >
> > > > However, at a different, deeper level, it seems that I
haven't
> > > > progressed at all - there is always, even at the deepest
moments
> > of
> > > > meditation, a steady presence of the mind which I can't get
rid
> > of.
> > > > It is there, always verbally aware of itself, as if
constnatly
> > > > screening and seprating myself from the inner silence. At
other
> > > > times, when not expressing itself in words, it is there in
the
> > form
> > > > of distant imagery. Be it in words or images, its common
> > denominator
> > > > is that I always see or hear myself following the mantra from
a
> > > > certain distance, as if always aware of myself being
meditating
> > at
> > > > the moment.
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, my meditation is never trully deep.I never
manage
> > to
> > > > really delve into the peaceful meditative experience. For
> > example,
> > > > even the contents of this mail had been phrased in my mind
> > during a
> > > > relatively deep meditation sitting. Also, every slightest
noise
> > > > ditracts me, and I very easily get out of meditation (barely
> > needing
> > > > any rest at all). Always remaining superficial.
> > > >
> > > > I know the usual advice is to realize the shallowness of the
> > > > chatter, simply relax, follow the mantra and let go. The
problem
> > is
> > > > that I have been doing this for nearly a year, without seeing
> > any
> > > > results. On the profound level, I appear to be stepping in
the
> > same
> > > > place.
> > > >
> > > > I will be grateful for any suggestions of how to remove this
> > > > blockage.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > > > <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I just realized something after a lifetime of meditation
> > that's
> > > > completely transformed
> > > > > everything for me. I'm a little ashamed to say it, because
I'm
> > > > betting it's the most obvious,
> > > > > trivial, beginner observation imaginable. No doubt many of
you
> > > > figured this out in your
> > > > > first few sessions. It's a "duh". But I offer this for
anyone
> > > > who's been struggling with the
> > > > > same block, and I rush to note that it has nothing to do
with
> > AYP,
> > > > and, indeed, is exactly
> > > > > the sort of mental construct intrusion that's supposed to
send
> > us
> > > > gently back to mantra
> > > > > (observing yourself meditating - even extracting deep
wisdom
> > from
> > > > what you're
> > > > > experiencing - is a trap of the mind).
> > > > >
> > > > > when you're in deep meditation, with most of the more
> > superficial
> > > > chatter stilled, and your
> > > > > mind finds you and blindsides you out of nowhere ("shoot!
did
> > I
> > > > turn off my stove??"), it
> > > > > doesn't have to bob you all the way back up to the surface
and
> > > > make you have to start
> > > > > from scratch. Even if your peace feels utterly punctured,
> > you're
> > > > not as far away from
> > > > > returning to where you were as you think. In fact, you're
just
> > a
> > > > hair of a notch away. The
> > > > > notion that you've been totally disrupted, and need to go
> > drill
> > > > all the way back down again
> > > > > is just another trick of the mind (which has endless
tricks,
> > of
> > > > course....which is why we
> > > > > work to bypass it rather than do battle with it!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if you're in a holy, still moment and your mind shoots
to
> > the
> > > > dinner reservation you
> > > > > forgot to make, paradise is not lost. Trust that you've
> > drifted
> > > > but a millimeter. Trust the
> > > > > state, trust the mantra, trust everything - it's just been
a
> > > > flicker. The safety net is closer
> > > > > than you think.
> > > > >
> > > > > Man, this is powerful......for me, at least
537 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:33pm
Subject: Re: Blockage nearoanoke
Offline
Send Email
Tom,
Analyzing oneself is the biggest mistake that people often do in
meditation. Worrying about progress/expecting results/looking for
experiences - whatever you name it can be a very distracting thing
to our progress.
I would suggest you to go and read Karma Yoga by vivekananda if you
havent done that already. I too used to analyze myself a lot but
after I read that I stopped doing so. KY says "Never expect anything
in return for what you do. Every action good or bad that you do goes
and comes back to you. Every karma/action has to produce a result".
Not expecting anything for what you do is very difficult but it is
the way that the ideal karma yogi works. Same thing applies for our
meditation too. If we expect something and do meditation that is not
going to work. During meditation, whenever I tried to look for some
experiences I never get them, only when i go my way without worrying
about them do they come.
Just remember that we have only 40 mins per each day of meditaion in
this life. Each of these analyzing thoughts that you waste on in
meditation is precious time lost. And also it is just 1 year. People
take lives to acheive this goal, so may be you can wait for some
more time to see better results.
http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.i...te_works.htm
goto the above link and click on volume 1 for karma yoga
Love,
Near
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "tom_orgad" <orgad1@b...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Following Jim's posting, I would like to share with you a problem
I
> have been facing during meditation. I will appreciate to receive
any
> advice or comments.
>
> I have been practicing following the AYP lessons for a little
under
> a year now. I believe that on certain levels my progression has
been
> rather rapid - I feel as if a notable presence of inner silence is
> growing within me.
>
> However, at a different, deeper level, it seems that I haven't
> progressed at all - there is always, even at the deepest moments
of
> meditation, a steady presence of the mind which I can't get rid
of.
> It is there, always verbally aware of itself, as if constnatly
> screening and seprating myself from the inner silence. At other
> times, when not expressing itself in words, it is there in the
form
> of distant imagery. Be it in words or images, its common
denominator
> is that I always see or hear myself following the mantra from a
> certain distance, as if always aware of myself being meditating at
> the moment.
>
> Therefore, my meditation is never trully deep.I never manage to
> really delve into the peaceful meditative experience. For example,
> even the contents of this mail had been phrased in my mind during
a
> relatively deep meditation sitting. Also, every slightest noise
> ditracts me, and I very easily get out of meditation (barely
needing
> any rest at all). Always remaining superficial.
>
> I know the usual advice is to realize the shallowness of the
> chatter, simply relax, follow the mantra and let go. The problem
is
> that I have been doing this for nearly a year, without seeing any
> results. On the profound level, I appear to be stepping in the
same
> place.
>
> I will be grateful for any suggestions of how to remove this
> blockage.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I just realized something after a lifetime of meditation that's
> completely transformed
> > everything for me. I'm a little ashamed to say it, because I'm
> betting it's the most obvious,
> > trivial, beginner observation imaginable. No doubt many of you
> figured this out in your
> > first few sessions. It's a "duh". But I offer this for anyone
> who's been struggling with the
> > same block, and I rush to note that it has nothing to do with
AYP,
> and, indeed, is exactly
> > the sort of mental construct intrusion that's supposed to send
us
> gently back to mantra
> > (observing yourself meditating - even extracting deep wisdom
from
> what you're
> > experiencing - is a trap of the mind).
> >
> > when you're in deep meditation, with most of the more
superficial
> chatter stilled, and your
> > mind finds you and blindsides you out of nowhere ("shoot! did I
> turn off my stove??"), it
> > doesn't have to bob you all the way back up to the surface and
> make you have to start
> > from scratch. Even if your peace feels utterly punctured, you're
> not as far away from
> > returning to where you were as you think. In fact, you're just a
> hair of a notch away. The
> > notion that you've been totally disrupted, and need to go drill
> all the way back down again
> > is just another trick of the mind (which has endless tricks, of
> course....which is why we
> > work to bypass it rather than do battle with it!).
> >
> > Even if you're in a holy, still moment and your mind shoots to
the
> dinner reservation you
> > forgot to make, paradise is not lost. Trust that you've drifted
> but a millimeter. Trust the
> > state, trust the mantra, trust everything - it's just been a
> flicker. The safety net is closer
> > than you think.
> >
> > Man, this is powerful......for me, at least
541 From: "yogagal60510" <loba@aol.com>
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:27am
Subject: Re: Blockage yogagal60510
Offline
Send Email
Thank you Near for saying what I said in my previous post, that
analyzing and worrying about the "proper" way to meditate, etc., is
fruitless. Yet I was chastized for having an "injunctive" tone to my
message, when all I suggested was let it flow: relax, release, and
breath, because every day will be different in meditation. If one is
over-analyzing their meditation, how can one possibly calm the mind
and develop single-pointed concentration? Doesn't this over-
analyzation create more chitta? Yes, thoughts will always fly into
your mind during meditation, what of it? That is the way our mind
is. Use your breath to bring you back to your focus, which of course
is easier said than done!
When I discussed my meditation experiences with Buddhist monks they
told me: "Detach. What you experienced may happen again tomorrow, it
may happen 20 years from now, it may never happen again. Detach and
let go. You do not remember the experience, you are only remembering
the memory. Do not attach to the memory, and begin again."
The trick is to bring meditation and mindfulness off your cushion and
into your life, as you bring yoga off the mat and into your life. To
paraphrase Thich Nhat Hanh, "when you are making a salad, just make
the salad."
om mani padme hum
linda (narayan kaur)
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Tom,
>
> Analyzing oneself is the biggest mistake that people often do in
> meditation. Worrying about progress/expecting results/looking for
> experiences - whatever you name it can be a very distracting thing
> to our progress.
>
> I would suggest you to go and read Karma Yoga by vivekananda if you
> havent done that already. I too used to analyze myself a lot but
> after I read that I stopped doing so. KY says "Never expect
anything
> in return for what you do. Every action good or bad that you do
goes
> and comes back to you. Every karma/action has to produce a result".
>
> Not expecting anything for what you do is very difficult but it is
> the way that the ideal karma yogi works. Same thing applies for our
> meditation too. If we expect something and do meditation that is
not
> going to work. During meditation, whenever I tried to look for some
> experiences I never get them, only when i go my way without
worrying
> about them do they come.
>
> Just remember that we have only 40 mins per each day of meditaion
in
> this life. Each of these analyzing thoughts that you waste on in
> meditation is precious time lost. And also it is just 1 year.
People
> take lives to acheive this goal, so may be you can wait for some
> more time to see better results.
>
>
http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.i...te_works.htm
>
> goto the above link and click on volume 1 for karma yoga
>
> Love,
> Near
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "tom_orgad" <orgad1@b...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Following Jim's posting, I would like to share with you a problem
> I
> > have been facing during meditation. I will appreciate to receive
> any
> > advice or comments.
> >
> > I have been practicing following the AYP lessons for a little
> under
> > a year now. I believe that on certain levels my progression has
> been
> > rather rapid - I feel as if a notable presence of inner silence
is
> > growing within me.
> >
> > However, at a different, deeper level, it seems that I haven't
> > progressed at all - there is always, even at the deepest moments
> of
> > meditation, a steady presence of the mind which I can't get rid
> of.
> > It is there, always verbally aware of itself, as if constnatly
> > screening and seprating myself from the inner silence. At other
> > times, when not expressing itself in words, it is there in the
> form
> > of distant imagery. Be it in words or images, its common
> denominator
> > is that I always see or hear myself following the mantra from a
> > certain distance, as if always aware of myself being meditating
at
> > the moment.
> >
> > Therefore, my meditation is never trully deep.I never manage to
> > really delve into the peaceful meditative experience. For
example,
> > even the contents of this mail had been phrased in my mind during
> a
> > relatively deep meditation sitting. Also, every slightest noise
> > ditracts me, and I very easily get out of meditation (barely
> needing
> > any rest at all). Always remaining superficial.
> >
> > I know the usual advice is to realize the shallowness of the
> > chatter, simply relax, follow the mantra and let go. The problem
> is
> > that I have been doing this for nearly a year, without seeing any
> > results. On the profound level, I appear to be stepping in the
> same
> > place.
> >
> > I will be grateful for any suggestions of how to remove this
> > blockage.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I just realized something after a lifetime of meditation that's
> > completely transformed
> > > everything for me. I'm a little ashamed to say it, because I'm
> > betting it's the most obvious,
> > > trivial, beginner observation imaginable. No doubt many of you
> > figured this out in your
> > > first few sessions. It's a "duh". But I offer this for anyone
> > who's been struggling with the
> > > same block, and I rush to note that it has nothing to do with
> AYP,
> > and, indeed, is exactly
> > > the sort of mental construct intrusion that's supposed to send
> us
> > gently back to mantra
> > > (observing yourself meditating - even extracting deep wisdom
> from
> > what you're
> > > experiencing - is a trap of the mind).
> > >
> > > when you're in deep meditation, with most of the more
> superficial
> > chatter stilled, and your
> > > mind finds you and blindsides you out of nowhere ("shoot! did I
> > turn off my stove??"), it
> > > doesn't have to bob you all the way back up to the surface and
> > make you have to start
> > > from scratch. Even if your peace feels utterly punctured,
you're
> > not as far away from
> > > returning to where you were as you think. In fact, you're just
a
> > hair of a notch away. The
> > > notion that you've been totally disrupted, and need to go drill
> > all the way back down again
> > > is just another trick of the mind (which has endless tricks, of
> > course....which is why we
> > > work to bypass it rather than do battle with it!).
> > >
> > > Even if you're in a holy, still moment and your mind shoots to
> the
> > dinner reservation you
> > > forgot to make, paradise is not lost. Trust that you've drifted
> > but a millimeter. Trust the
> > > state, trust the mantra, trust everything - it's just been a
> > flicker. The safety net is closer
> > > than you think.
> > >
> > > Man, this is powerful......for me, at least
566 From: Tom Orgad <orgad1@bezeqint.net>
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:37pm
Subject: Re: Blockage tom_orgad
Offline
Send Email
Hi,
Thank you all very much for the inspiring replies. Actually (as I
somehow suspected), it appears that I have been acting as I should
have, just not realizing it due to redundant over-analysis. It is
fantastic to have forums such as this in order to emphasize notions
of that kind.
Cheers,
Tom
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999"
wrote:
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> some truly excellent responses there from Jim and Near.
>
> In meditation you believe you face a block to your spiritual
> progress, and you wonder how you will pass it. There is
something
> you want to get done --- pass this block so you can progress more
> spiritually.
>
> Near's response tells you that not all spiritual progress is made
in > meditation, so not all of the "solution" to your problem lies
there.
>
> Jim's response is about meditation.
>
> One of the paradoxes of meditation is that, whereas we may do it
for
> spiritual progress, when we meditate, we are not doing it 'for
> spiritual progress' during the meditation.
>
> If meditation were a discussion, *everything* would be off-
topic.
> In meditation, everything is off-topic, particularly spiritual
> progress. This can be a little paradoxical and difficult for the
> mind to grasp. After all, are we not meditating perhaps with the
> intention of spiritual progress?
>
> But we leave our intentions at the door, like you leave your
shoes
> at the door when you enter a temple.
>
> And this great mind, which helps you in so many ways, including
> perhaps guiding you to take up meditation, leading you to get
> answ! ers to its questions, this great mind, when you enter
> meditation, is fired, dismissed. It is fired when you start
> meditating, and can be re-appointed only when you finish. It was
a
> CEO in the boardroom one minute before you started meditating,
and
> the next minute, when you are on the cushion, it is a former
CEO,
> ten years after being fired, unwashed, homeless, and delusional,
> thinking it is still CEO and making a mild nuisance of itself in
the
> temple muttering irrelevancies while you meditate. This is true
even
> if it thinks it is solving your spiritual problems.
>
> There is a time and place for thinking and analysing and
positioning
> yourself in your spiritual life, within limits, but that happens
> outside meditation, when the CEO is back in the boardroom.
>
> Regards,
>
> -David
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > One piece of encouragement, Tom. When you peel back the edge,
> you'll see that your mind
> > is just really nothing of any substance. It's a loud, crackling
> transistor radio. It's 500 lines
> > of computer code. This awesome entity with which you've been
> grappling (and, more
> > shockingly, the entity you've been considering to be your self
all
> these years) is
> > prepostorously puny and about two microns thin. Our supposed
captor
> is a half assed
> > clunky slide projector, but we're just not used to looking past
it.
> It's very Wizard of Oz. The
> > whole thing is truly the ultimate shaggy dog joke (and the punch
> line will really blow your
> > mind).
> >
> > But forget that. Cling to mantra like the demons of hell are
> snapping at your shins.
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke"
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >>If you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!",
mantra.
> > >
> > > Very Well put jim.
> > >
> > > There lies the answer tom. There are only two states in
> meditation.
> > > The one away from mantra and in mantra. Thats it. Dont analyze
> > > further. Whatever be the thought that is NOT mantra go back to
> > > mantra (whenever u realize that you are off)
> > >
> > > Love,
> > > Near
> > >
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AYP response: don't sweat it! . Keep going. You're not trying
to
> > > still the mind, you're trying
> > > > to purify the nervous system, so don't judge and just let
the
> > > mantra do its work, which it
> > > > actually does more thoroughly when you drift and come back.
> That's
> > > the beauty and
> > > > simplicity of the practice.
> > > >
> > > > My response: you think you see your mind remaining there.
But
> it's
> > > your mind doing the
> > > > seeing. Your mind can create existential loops for you (it
> > > actually thinks it's being helpful,
> > > > trying to guide you through this spirituality thing just as
> it's
> > > guided you faithfully through
> > > > so many other projects!) that you can never navigate or
prevent.
> > > >
> > >! > Don't fight it, don't make it go away. Let it do its
> thing...let
> > > it conjure up marching bands
> > > > and ex girlfriends....let it all play on but OPT OUT by just
> > > existing in the mantra. If you get
> > > > frustrated, mantra. If you get distracted, mantra. If you
can't
> > > quiet your mind, mantra. If
> > > > you say to yourself "I think I've quieted my mind!", mantra.
If
> > > you realize that by saying
> > > > that, your mind has fooled you, mantra. If you have an
> incredible
> > > spiritual realization you
> > > > need to remember for later, mantra. If you're remembering
this
> > > encouragement I'm giving
> > > > you and it feels really helpful, mantra. If you say to
> > > yourself "Must go to mantra!", mantra.
> > > > That's the w! ay. Don't stop. Everything but God is noise. And
> God's
> > > even the noise. But
> > > > don't think about it, this isn't an intellectual pursuit, so
> don't
> > > collect insights - that's just
> > > > more stimulation (that's why wise men just giggle when you
ask
> > > them most questions). I'm
> > > > not so wise, so instead of giggling I'll shout once again:
> MANTRA!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "tom_orgad"
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > Following Jim's posting, I would like to share with you a
> > > problem I
> > > > > have been facing during meditation. I will appreciate to
> receive
> > > ! any
> > > > > advice or comments.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been practicing following the AYP lessons for a
little
> > > under
> > > > > a year now. I believe that on certain levels my
progression
> has
> > > been
> > > > > rather rapid - I feel as if a notable presence of inner
> silence
> > > is
> > > > > growing within me.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, at a different, deeper level, it seems that I
> haven't
> > > > > progressed at all - there is always, even at the deepest
> moments
> > > of
> > > > > meditation, a steady presence of the mind which I can't
get
> rid
> > > of.
> > > > > It is there, always verbally aware of itself, as if
> constnatly
&! gt; > > > > screening and seprating myself from the inner silence. At
> other
> > > > > times, when not expressing itself in words, it is there in
> the
> > > form
> > > > > of distant imagery. Be it in words or images, its common
> > > denominator
> > > > > is that I always see or hear myself following the mantra
from
> a
> > > > > certain distance, as if always aware of myself being
> meditating
> > > at
> > > > > the moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, my meditation is never trully deep.I never
> manage
> > > to
> > > > > really delve into the peaceful meditative experience. For
> > > example,
> > > > > even the contents of this mail had been phrased in my mind
> > > during a
! > > > > > relatively deep meditation sitting. Also, every slightest
> noise
> > > > > ditracts me, and I very easily get out of meditation
(barely
> > > needing
> > > > > any rest at all). Always remaining superficial.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know the usual advice is to realize the shallowness of
the
> > > > > chatter, simply relax, follow the mantra and let go. The
> problem
> > > is
> > > > > that I have been doing this for nearly a year, without
seeing
> > > any
> > > > > results. On the profound level, I appear to be stepping in
> the
> > > same
> > > > > place.
> > > > >
> > |
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