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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 02 2012 : 2:50:39 PM
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"Realization of 'no self ' is one thing; having personal will wither away into nothing is another." It is only in the ebbing of this will that we come to know what the spiritual journey is about: the flowering of truth." - Adyashanti
I recently came up against a really sticky point of identification: Identification as the chooser, the doer. This identification also manifests as the attachment to control, and attachment to taking action.
I brought into my spiritual practice the belief that I was Josh Anderson. As I've moved through practices recently, it seems Josh Anderson is more like an experience occurring within awareness itself. It's as though awareness is like a movie screen, and this entity called Josh Anderson (comprised of sense perceptions, thoughts, emotions) is simply a projection upon the movie screen of awareness.
This in turn has resulted in a powerful dis-identification with all thoughts occurring in said entity, it's entire perspective on life, it's constant state of grasping and rejecting, fearing and hoping and attempting to serve itself, to find a little respite from... well, itself.
The issue of choice, taking action started to become very prominent. Firstly, I had to consider that the motivations on my quest for enlightenment were entirely selfish - why was I seeking enlightenment? Well, to be free of myself. Why? So I could feel better! There's a nice inherent paradox there.
After a direct experience of myself as formless-awareness-freedom, the entity became very confused. It became absolutely clear to me that no action I could possibly take as the entity "Josh Anderson" was going to lead anywhere. In fact, the harder the entity tried: fasting, intense spiritual practices, noticing awareness - all effort directed towards enlightenment seemed to be counter-productive. This is because making an effort re-enforces the illusion of being a separate entity who needs to do something to make enlightenment happen.
So to make a long story slightly shorter, I began to realize that:
a) many actions on 'my' spiritual search arose out of a desire to control experience somehow (the entity trying to 'have a good time'/feel good).
b) what was needed was not a better life or to feel good the whole time, but simply the cessation of identification with this mental function, the 'chooser/doer' function, which believed somehow experience is wrong/not enough, and that it must take action to improve experience and make it more pleasant (thereby re-enforcing the ego's sense of its own reality)
And so I began to ask the question, releasing into silence, (question courtesy of Adya) what would life be like if I did absolutely nothing to try and change it?
At first, fear. The thought arises, well, that's ridiculous, of course I have to do something. I have to do my spiritual practices, blah blah blah.
And then today, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh............. surrender!
And surrender without anything changing. I'm sure the entity will continue to proceed with spiritual practices, certainly because I enjoy them. Why not. But the suffering of 'seeking' and 'making an effort' is being let go.
And for me, this experience has absolutely confirmed an attitude in which we accept the truth of a relative self and the ability to act towards a better an experience, whilst also containing and contemplating the paradoxical truth that there's no-one to act, nothing to do, nowhere to go, you are already That - and being aware of the pitfall of re-enforcing the identity of separation through 'making an effort' to do spiritual practices.
"Q. So when choice appears, is there free will?
A. Yes, and no, and they are both true. You would like me to explain that wouldn’t you? (laughter) All truth is like that by the way—that’s why we call it non-dual. Non-dual doesn’t mean that there is no duality, it means that the truth that expresses itself as duality and itself is bigger. So, it expresses itself as duality, which means there is free will and there isn’t free will. And, the ultimate truth is something that’s bigger than either one of those—where both are sort of completely irrelevant. Because the ultimate truth is that neither apply. Free will and no free will only apply to a “me.” But either way it’s saying something to the little me that’s not really true: “You have free will,” it’s not really true. “You don’t have free will,” that’s not really true. If it’s all one, since it is all one, where does the question of free will and no free will come about? You see what I mean? It’s only relevant when the mind separates itself and goes, “OK, now I’ve got to see, where do I stack up in it all. Do I have free will or do I not?” And the answer is, “No, sweetheart, you don’t exist.” (laughter) Do you feel it? It starts to be a relief of the question. That’s the relief, yes. The answer isn’t the answer. The answer is the relief of the question. There it is." Adyashanti |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2012 : 3:48:49 PM
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Josh,
Always wonderful to have you post.
Self-realization is a far more slippery path than at first realized, because as you have learned,
the conditioned mind plays game upon game. In fact it's when we have 'low ego' that often we are
most controlled by ego (the ego plays dead for decades sometimes, pulling the strings like always).
Add to this struggle for self-realization the fact, that we come to this world with pre-existing
ignorance, due to more subtle aspects of us also thinking that 'they exist' and are in fact
in charge, just like the 'organic ego'.
I'm speaking about the so-called and temporary layers of being, known as 'the soul' and the 'atman'.
Now AYP wisely avoids talking about specific, temporary sub-layers such as these, and like most
post-advaita systems uses one concept, namely 'the self'.
Well that's all well and good, but those 'temporary sub-layers' BELIEVE that they exist, and in fact
BELIEVE that they exist before you are ever born.
So during our purification process with AYP or another comprehensive system, whether the organic mind
believes in those other layers or not, it does not matter; the 'karma' of their believe in themselves
colors our path.
For example when kundalini first awakens, it is the 'soul' which becomes engorged with increased false
reality. When the 'soul' glows bright, this is called illumination, or being illuminated.
But we must ignore this glowing soul, even though it makes wild promises to us, that cannot fulfill.
When kundalini goes to the second stage, the so-called 'atman' becomes very activated,
and you become a bliss junky.
We must also ignore the 'atman'.
Any stable path will wind-up 'illuminating' and 'activating' these pre-delusional layers of temporary
and non-important being.
What becomes discernable, becomes capable of being purified.
This is why DM is so powerful for example; it in fact activates both of these temporary elements,
but does not lead to ignorance by focusing upon them.
So what I'm saying here in something of a summary, is that 'ego' exists on varying levels, not just
the one with which you may be the most familiar.
Now, if the atman, 'soul' and 'physical ego' do their job: act as a quiet conduit, and do not put
themselves 'in charge' --- which they cannot effectively do; and eventually 'sink into the body'
and become invisible (stage 3 of kundalini),
then this state is known as wholeness; it has no conditions or expectations.
The entire 'personal being', which actually does exist in a manner of speaking, becomes
silent and satisfied; for when the 'spirit returns to the clay vessel' as a Taoist might
say for example, there is no more longing for 'out there',
as the 'out there' has become fused with the 'right here and now' and THAT is the state
of grace known as liberation and freedom, right here, right now.
The mind chasing itself around in purely 'mental practices' cannot 'find itself'.
This is why AYP also honors the body extensively with it's many hatha/kriya/tantra
descended practices.
Do these words resonate?
Love,
Kevin
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2012 : 6:36:02 PM
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Hi Kevin,
Thanks for your response. The following definitely does resonate:
quote:
then this state is known as wholeness; it has no conditions or expectations.
The entire 'personal being', which actually does exist in a manner of speaking, becomes
silent and satisfied; for when the 'spirit returns to the clay vessel' as a Taoist might
say for example, there is no more longing for 'out there',
as the 'out there' has become fused with the 'right here and now' and THAT is the state
of grace known as liberation and freedom, right here, right now.
The mind chasing itself around in purely 'mental practices' cannot 'find itself'.
This is why AYP also honors the body extensively with it's many hatha/kriya/tantra
descended practices.
As for what you say regarding the Atman etc, you may well be right. But I cannot vouch for or deny what you say.
As Socrates might say, I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
So much has been said to be true or untrue in the world, and I will only believe what I can incontrovertibly prove directly in the laboratory of my own experience, and even when all the evidence points to one answer, I will still be only vaguely inclined to suspect that that answer is correct.
The nature of the present experience is what I would call an on-going liberation from the personal - it's awakening from the dream of being a relative identity, and discovering every problem mind ever believed it had to be a mere phantasm, simply a transient package of thought and emotion, devoid of inherent existence, slipping out of existence and becoming memory as soon as it arises.
As to the nature of reality, the grand scheme of things, and any matter beyond the sense perceptions, thoughts and emotions which are directly experienced in the present moment, I know nothing. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2012 : 7:26:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for your response. The following definitely does resonate:
quote:
then this state is known as wholeness; it has no conditions or expectations.
The entire 'personal being', which actually does exist in a manner of speaking, becomes
silent and satisfied; for when the 'spirit returns to the clay vessel' as a Taoist might
say for example, there is no more longing for 'out there',
as the 'out there' has become fused with the 'right here and now' and THAT is the state
of grace known as liberation and freedom, right here, right now.
The mind chasing itself around in purely 'mental practices' cannot 'find itself'.
This is why AYP also honors the body extensively with it's many hatha/kriya/tantra
descended practices.
As for what you say regarding the Atman etc, you may well be right. But I cannot vouch for or deny what you say.
As Socrates might say, I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
So much has been said to be true or untrue in the world, and I will only believe what I can incontrovertibly prove directly in the laboratory of my own experience, and even when all the evidence points to one answer, I will still be only vaguely inclined to suspect that that answer is correct.
The nature of the present experience is what I would call an on-going liberation from the personal - it's awakening from the dream of being a relative identity, and discovering every problem mind ever believed it had to be a mere phantasm, simply a transient package of thought and emotion, devoid of inherent existence, slipping out of existence and becoming memory as soon as it arises.
As to the nature of reality, the grand scheme of things, and any matter beyond the sense perceptions, thoughts and emotions which are directly experienced in the present moment, I know nothing.
Josh,
your heart is good and you are very focused upon your path.
In fact you are blessed.
I myself was born in full consciousness of things, which took
my entire life to sink to the level of the 'unimportant'.
It's been like being born with 3 heads for me; with everyone
saying 'no, no you only have one head!". All the while I watch
their other two heads smiling wickedly at me.
While certain things are universal, other things are optional.
Perhaps this is 'my' lesson.
Love,
Kevin
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2012 : 11:00:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
The nature of the present experience is what I would call an on-going liberation from the personal - it's awakening from the dream of being a relative identity, and discovering every problem mind ever believed it had to be a mere phantasm, simply a transient package of thought and emotion, devoid of inherent existence, slipping out of existence and becoming memory as soon as it arises.
As to the nature of reality, the grand scheme of things, and any matter beyond the sense perceptions, thoughts and emotions which are directly experienced in the present moment, I know nothing.
Hi Josh,
What a wonderful description, thank you! Very similar experience here recently (Adya's words seem to have that effect  )
A while ago, I had a strange experience of "seeing" everything - thoughts, emotions, reactions, actions, causes, effects within me and the whole cosmos arise, interact with one another (or not) and dissolve into a vast emptiness. It was awe-inspiring, that vision that lasted for many minutes. As I watched, the awareness of the emptiness turned upon itself and there was a shift from "noticing" the emptiness to "being" the emptiness, with everything arising and dissolving into "me".. In the days and weeks following that, there was a subtle shift in perspective in daily life, from the "experiencing" to the "experiencer". And gradually, there is ongoing simultaneous "being" as both the experiencing and the experiencer - to gradually seeing everything as part of the whole.. Including this body-mind entity doing its thing (including practices), and how it is all unfolding perfectly.. Allowing, including, surrendering, not knowing.. The "is-ness" of it all.. Ahh!
To me, it feels like one of those trick pictures that has both a demure young woman and an old woman with a crooked nose superimposed on each other. At first glance, we see one; a subtle shift in gaze and we see the other.. And then, we are able to see them both..
"Hiding here in plain sight all along", as Adya says
As Yogani and others have said many times, it is inner silence that deepens this.. Practices that continue to cultivate it (by this body-mind) are key
Love to you.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2012 : 08:00:05 AM
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| Good to enjoy both sides. You can play with existence, enjoy the cold waves of fear and the warm breeze of joy equally, like a composer creating a symphony, the web weaves itself without conforming. The clay, the artist and the viewer become one, each moulding the other with infinite perfection and in constant change of form. To watch this in action is exquisite beauty, how it happens is irrelevant. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2012 : 08:13:24 AM
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Hi Kami
quote:
A while ago, I had a strange experience of "seeing" everything - thoughts, emotions, reactions, actions, causes, effects within me and the whole cosmos arise, interact with one another (or not) and dissolve into a vast emptiness. It was awe-inspiring, that vision that lasted for many minutes. As I watched, the awareness of the emptiness turned upon itself and there was a shift from "noticing" the emptiness to "being" the emptiness, with everything arising and dissolving into "me".. In the days and weeks following that, there was a subtle shift in perspective in daily life, from the "experiencing" to the "experiencer". And gradually, there is ongoing simultaneous "being" as both the experiencing and the experiencer - to gradually seeing everything as part of the whole.. Including this body-mind entity doing its thing (including practices), and how it is all unfolding perfectly.. Allowing, including, surrendering, not knowing.. The "is-ness" of it all.. Ahh!
Very beautiful also, thank you for sharing :-)
Love
Josh
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Edited by - mr_anderson on Aug 05 2012 08:14:46 AM |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2012 : 3:07:50 PM
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This is not often discussed, but even the Knower, the 'Silent Witness' finds itself changing
as one lives and walks on a path.
I know that it would be simple and comforting to believe that there is ONE ALMIGHTY AND
OMNISCIENT Knower on day one to day last, but it doesn't work that way.
The 'Knower' is in fact the one who is deluded; the meat body is barely involved.
Now granted, the Silent Witness you first hear in DM is an awesome guide, and I'm not
insulting this witness.
But scales fall off the eyes of this witness, and a witness capable of more clarity
will subtly take the place; and this wont' necessarily be obvious.
Outside of time the Self (really an unfortunate term, I prefer Wholeness) has no
variation. But within time and matter there is a continuous clarification and
purification.
This is not bad; this is wonderful.
Today's wonderful realization is tomorrows garbage; but THIS DOES NOT MATTER.
What matters is that we listen and take that next step. Even if that step
is 'wrong' it's a necessary step.
Truly in the land of time, EVERYTHING is 'wrong', but EVERYTHING is useful.
This is why I don't get my briefs in a bunch about traditional knowledge or
being precise about practices sometimes.
Does a practice or method of self-seeking cause positive flow (forward motion
of steps)? Then that is all you can ask of a practice or method or experience.
Love,
Kevin
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2012 : 10:02:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
Today's wonderful realization is tomorrows garbage; but THIS DOES NOT MATTER.
What matters is that we listen and take that next step. Even if that step
is 'wrong' it's a necessary step.
Does a practice or method of self-seeking cause positive flow (forward motion
of steps)? Then that is all you can ask of a practice or method or experience.
Dear Kevin,
Gosh, such beauty and wisdom in these words! Thank you _/\_ Very grateful for your presence here.
P.S. Josh,
Not sure if this question has come up for you, but did for me - in the context of allowing everything to be as it is, do samyama and meditation using mantra or other techniques constitute "manipulation" of what is? I asked Yogani this question. Posting his reply here with his permission:
"Keep in mind that it is the practices that are creating [the experience of "is-ness"], and will continue to deepen and broaden the experience. So when we are using a mantra or sutras according to their respective procedures, it is for deepening and enlivening "stillness in action" in all aspects of daily living. Yes, the ego is the one deciding to do these practices, effectively sawing off the limb it is sitting on. In the process, we have to be careful of the mental pitfalls that can come up, like: "Oh, I can reside in stillness. Who needs these practices anymore?" After 40+ years, I am still wary of that one, and do my practices daily.
It is uncanny how short the memory is in enlightened people. No matter how many decades they practiced to get to where they are, more often than not they will say, "Just be here now." It is as if enlightenment is an intellectual revelation, rather than a deep neuro-biological transformation. Not!
And it goes to show that perception in the present is 100% percent of our reality. But that does not apply to the realities of others according to their perception, or even to what our own condition can become by continuing with daily practices, no matter what.
As samyama evolves, it is the surrender of intentions, desires and inquiries in stillness. What comes out is stillness in action, which may or may not bear a relationship to our original intention. That is the essence of (active) surrender. There is great power in it"
Love,
kami |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2012 : 11:42:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
As samyama evolves, it is the surrender of intentions, desires and inquiries in stillness. What comes out is stillness in action, which may or may not bear a relationship to our original intention. That is the essence of (active) surrender. There is great power in it"
Love,
kami
This is the building site I referred to in another post. Ultimately there is no control of things, but there is a metamorphism towards something unspecified. I don't funderstand it, it's creative, like art, constantly evolving, never completed. We can do a complete rebuild of our world, but it comes from somewhere other than the mind. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2012 : 1:04:32 PM
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quote:
I don't funderstand it
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2012 : 3:23:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
I don't funderstand it
Or stunderfand it either. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2012 : 3:24:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by kami
As samyama evolves, it is the surrender of intentions, desires and inquiries in stillness. What comes out is stillness in action, which may or may not bear a relationship to our original intention. That is the essence of (active) surrender. There is great power in it"
Love,
kami
This is the building site I referred to in another post. Ultimately there is no control of things, but there is a metamorphism towards something unspecified. I don't funderstand it, it's creative, like art, constantly evolving, never completed. We can do a complete rebuild of our world, but it comes from somewhere other than the mind.
It's pleasant that you understand ;-)
The wisest man I know loves to point out that the meaning in
Sanskrit of the word 'maya' is 'to measure'.
When we keep measuring from a limited perception, we just make
ourselves sick.
If we wish to get well, and to wake up from the nightmare we
create with 'our spiritual practices' and 'our path';
we need to stop measuring and start living.
Living without the NEED to measure; this is the very
definition of wholeness.
Yoga IS a step along the way for many of us however.
Love,
Kevin |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2012 : 10:18:17 AM
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quote:
P.S. Josh,
Not sure if this question has come up for you, but did for me - in the context of allowing everything to be as it is, do samyama and meditation using mantra or other techniques constitute "manipulation" of what is? I asked Yogani this question.
Hi Kami,
Yes this question has come up for me. It's a question that is best just released in stillness.
When spiritual teachers talk about 'just allowing', 'choice-less awareness', or 'doing nothing', what these questions should actually do (if the requisite inner silence is there) is draw us out of the identification with the doer.
'Making choices' or 'doing spiritual practices', or believing yourself to be a body/mind who makes these choices or does these spiritual practices - there's a heavy identification there.
When we don't look into this, we remain identified with some idea of ourselves as a body/mind who makes choices and does stuff to progress towards some future enlightenment. This entire idea of ourselves is just a bunch of thoughts, memories and imagination in the brain. It's devoid of any reality outside of the mind.
It's a trap to continue identifying with this. And also a wonderful freedom to recognize the automatic nature of choice-making and that we are not the doer, or the one who may suffer from the consequences of the doer's actions. It's just a body/mind, doing what a body/mind does, with a body/mind's perspective. This body/mind grows old, dies, suffers from disease and sickness, but the Self does not share this destiny.
But this doesn't invalidate powerful and effective spiritual practices, like AYP, in any way.
"Just allow what is", or "do nothing" aren't commandments.
They can be spiritual A-bombs, blasting through the identification with an idea of ourselves as a limited body/mind, which is bound to 'choose' and to 'do', allowing us to realize we are already free, NOW, and unbound by this need to 'choose' or 'do', and not subject to the consequences of 'choosing' and 'doing' either.
Alternatively, they are just vague, confusing and slightly annoying statements that lead to a lot of non-relational mental activity which gets us nowhere. I've certainly been there  But recently, "just allowing what is" has started to have some real power for me.
I think Yogani has had the wisest, middle-road attitude to this stuff. I remember once when non-duality was just so much incoherent nonsense, and Yogani bridged that gap.
I re-read this lesson while writing this post:
http://www.aypsite.com/84.html and I think he said it well there |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Aug 09 2012 10:25:22 AM |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2012 : 12:38:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
quote:
P.S. Josh,
Not sure if this question has come up for you, but did for me - in the context of allowing everything to be as it is, do samyama and meditation using mantra or other techniques constitute "manipulation" of what is? I asked Yogani this question.
Hi Kami,
Yes this question has come up for me. It's a question that is best just released in stillness.
When spiritual teachers talk about 'just allowing', 'choice-less awareness', or 'doing nothing', what these questions should actually do (if the requisite inner silence is there) is draw us out of the identification with the doer.
'Making choices' or 'doing spiritual practices', or believing yourself to be a body/mind who makes these choices or does these spiritual practices - there's a heavy identification there.
When we don't look into this, we remain identified with some idea of ourselves as a body/mind who makes choices and does stuff to progress towards some future enlightenment. This entire idea of ourselves is just a bunch of thoughts, memories and imagination in the brain. It's devoid of any reality outside of the mind.
It's a trap to continue identifying with this. And also a wonderful freedom to recognize the automatic nature of choice-making and that we are not the doer, or the one who may suffer from the consequences of the doer's actions. It's just a body/mind, doing what a body/mind does, with a body/mind's perspective. This body/mind grows old, dies, suffers from disease and sickness, but the Self does not share this destiny.
But this doesn't invalidate powerful and effective spiritual practices, like AYP, in any way.
"Just allow what is", or "do nothing" aren't commandments.
They can be spiritual A-bombs, blasting through the identification with an idea of ourselves as a limited body/mind, which is bound to 'choose' and to 'do', allowing us to realize we are already free, NOW, and unbound by this need to 'choose' or 'do', and not subject to the consequences of 'choosing' and 'doing' either.
Alternatively, they are just vague, confusing and slightly annoying statements that lead to a lot of non-relational mental activity which gets us nowhere. I've certainly been there But recently, "just allowing what is" has started to have some real power for me.
I think Yogani has had the wisest, middle-road attitude to this stuff. I remember once when non-duality was just so much incoherent nonsense, and Yogani bridged that gap.
I re-read this lesson while writing this post:
http://www.aypsite.com/84.html and I think he said it well there
Josh,
As it so happens, there has been this massive 'jnana-off' regarding
this very subject you mention above:
http://www.aypsite.com/84.html
It has been slightly unsettling for me, and I'm ok with that,
as being slightly unsettled is also part of wholeness of which
we are capable.
It's perfectly acceptable to be a mountain-top sitter, being utterly
worthless for one's fellow man; this too is part of the wholeness;
and in truth, there is nobody that needs saving, and nobody is
greater, or lesser, or even 'different' on the other side of the
veil; the so-called veil which separates the worlds of time and
energy, and the place which is timeless from which intention flows.
(the place of undifferentiated awareness, or as we call it here
the Silence with a capital 'S').
From my perspective at least, and supposedly I should not have
a perspective, but I welcome having one:
I could easily let the personal wither away, as I do not identify
with it. I mean this to such as extent that body parts dropping
off with say leprosy would not alarm me, or so it would seem.
But by abandoning the temporary and brutalized Kevin, I would
sacrifice my only probe into this world at this time.
Now assuredly I will not return to the confused state of looking
into broken matter, and seeing a distorted reflection.
But now that matter is healed, there is no more pain, only a
trustworthy reflection of the IAM that was IAM before this or
any other birth.
This does not mean that Kevin will be allowed to wither away.
He is a happy clown, who is content with any humiliation,
as he knows, through me, that he plays this game with me,
and he is not even real in any lasting sense; but that is
in fact the basis of his freedom: when the dreamer knows
himself as he truly is, then the dream is also liberated
to be a happy dream.
An enlightened man is OH SO SERIOUS.
A liberated dream, against the backdrop of wholeness hasn't
a serious bone in his or her body.
"May your reality be as pleasant": Star Trek, Original Series,
"The Cage".
Love,
Kevin
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Identification as the chooser / the doer
