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alan
USA
235 Posts |
 Posted - May 31 2006 : 09:52:05 AM
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Very nice mystiq, thank you for bringing us back to such a nice 'image' |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 09:50:19 AM
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Hello Mystiq, nice. I agree.
In it's true meaning, the word 'God' isn't really even a noun. Nouns refer to things, which are forms in pure consciousness, Brahman.
Names are also forms. God has no single name, because having any single thing is also a form, distinct from its opposite.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 7:49:56 PM
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I hate to bring this up at this point because Mystiq had so nicely returned us to the original topic, and the ego subject was a tangent. But I wanted to add what I think the true purpose of the ego is. It has gotten ugly in a lot of people, but it really has a use.
My belief is what it does is give one power in times of extreme need. It is a built in weapon against utter fear. The reason it seems to be so much in opposition to our spiritual aspirations is that if one has enough faith in God, the ego isn't necessary. but it is sort of a kind tool given by God if someone is in extreme fear, and doesn't have any faith. I know i have been in that spot before, and anyone can end up there for a time. The ego tells you everything is OK when there is absolutely no reason to believe it is.
I've seen people being given facts that should absolutely destroy them, like everything has gone bad, and it's your fault type of thing. and these people with a big ego refuse to believe it, and keep an even keel. this could save people's lives in times of extreme danger by enabling them to operate instead of deciding that they are "already dead".
So I believe the ego is a sort of compassionate life saver God gave us for people who have nothing left in their lives. It shows he cares even about those who may never accept him.
Ok thanks mystiq for returning to the original subject so nicely:
"The real God or Brahman is not a product of imagination and is what is left after all thoughts have run out.That God or Brahman doesn't have any image and none can see him for he is our very self."
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 06:27:32 AM
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And which God is a product of the imagination? The Quaran and the Bible say God is the infinite entirety (Sura 57:3 and Revelation 22:13 respectively), and that is what Brahman is.
All religions are one and have come from the same source. The differences are largely in the cultures of the peoples. The vast majority of people in this dark age misinterpret the scriptures.. because they look but do not see.. they listen but they do not hear.. Tamas and Rajas dominate our time, should we judge the holy scriptures because of this?
And about the Ego.. isn't that what we are trying to eliminate in spiritual practice? From the ego come all our desires and desires in this temporary world always lead to suffering.. aren't we looking for eternal peace? In Unity with God there is no room for ego as you are part of all and all is part of you.. |
Edited by - Chiron on Jun 08 2006 07:37:06 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 09:52:53 AM
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Chiron said:
Ego.. isn't that what we are trying to eliminate in spiritual practice
Well, maybe, depending on what 'ego' means. I'm wary of concepts like 'eliminate the ego' unless there is a very clear meaning of 'eliminate the ego' involved.
The obvious questions are, what is the ego? There is a huge number of intertwined mechanisms bundled together in what we call ego. Some good, some bad, some essential. Which of these should be eliminated? Which of them can be eliminated?
And then, if we do know what to eliminate in 'eliminate the ego', do we know how to eliminate it?
So I personally stay away from 'eliminate the ego'. I would prefer to cast it in terms of spiritual maturity -- a willingness to percieve reality as it is.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 11:24:45 AM
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| Ego is what makes meme and youyou. If we didn't have ego, and experienced 24/7 the Oneness of which we've all had minute glimpses, the infrastructure of our current existence would collapse in short time. Economies would crash, institutions would collapse, the Church would become obsolete. Societies have been built on the premise that there is an 'I' to protect, and thus we exist with invisible walls which separate us from each other. That's the ego. When those walls come down, it's a beautiful thing on a personal level, and even on a community level, but on a national or global level, there wouild be big trouble. I wonder what would happen in a certain war that's going on right now, if everyone involved had the sudden and profound realization that they're fighting against themselves, and that we're all One? In the moment, it would be a beautiful thing, but then? |
Edited by - Manipura on Jun 08 2006 11:27:25 AM |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 12:01:14 PM
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Meg, in such a dream I would hope that global cooperation and sharing of abundance would ensue, starting at the local level and building onward...
light and love,
Kathy |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 12:33:31 PM
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| I'd hope so too, Kathy. And in the absence of separation between one human and the next, maybe it could happen, but we'd be reformulating existence as we know it, so it would be an arduous, painstaking task. It's a fantasy that we'll never realize, as we're so entrenched in ego that it's not merely a nuisance, like a broken toe, but an inescapable condition. It's as if when we're born we're handed an assignment: Here's a life, here's your ego, see what you can do with it. In other words, it's another tool for spiritual growth. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 12:56:08 PM
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There are enormous problems of language and concept underlying all this. What does 'not having an ego' mean to you? Having this Oneness? Being enlightened?
There is plenty of 'not having an ego' that is not oneness or enlightened-ness. Some mentally ill people don't have an ego in any useful sense. When we are young enough as children, we don't have an ego (within some meanings of the word). Take enough drugs and your ego is temporarily not active, but you may be even worse to have around.
Zombies don't have an ego, and they still cause problems by eating people, and causing traffic jams. Zombie-movies in general are an eye-opener if you think that not having an ego is a solution to world problems. I recommend particularly, 'Shawn of the Dead'.
Why do we cast it in terms of 'not having an ego'? Do we know what we are talking about? Or are we creating the kind of problems mentioned by Frank in his recent post about 'withdrawal from the senses?'.
In other words, any conceptualization of 'not having an ego' is likely to be at best inaccurate, at worst wrong or useless; the enlightened state is what it is: 'not having an ego' seems a dodgy simplification.
What do you think?
quote:
Originally posted by meg
Ego is what makes meme and youyou. If we didn't have ego, and experienced 24/7 the Oneness of which we've all had minute glimpses, the infrastructure of our current existence would collapse in short time. Economies would crash, institutions would collapse, the Church would become obsolete. Societies have been built on the premise that there is an 'I' to protect, and thus we exist with invisible walls which separate us from each other. That's the ego. When those walls come down, it's a beautiful thing on a personal level, and even on a community level, but on a national or global level, there wouild be big trouble. I wonder what would happen in a certain war that's going on right now, if everyone involved had the sudden and profound realization that they're fighting against themselves, and that we're all One? In the moment, it would be a beautiful thing, but then?
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 3:19:15 PM
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Wouldn't zombiness be ego...being a zombie and eating people?
And mentally ill people are having the experience of their particular mental illness. Wouldn't that be a solid ego...an identification with a particular mayaic delusion of being in a private world of a separate existance?
When I would saturate with drugs I was having the egoic experience of being the child personality that had "grown up" and was drugging out.
I remember hints of being a very young, though somewhat corrupted personality that would have experiences of the awesome divine everywhere. Maybe that more pure ego experience would be a little closer to what I'd call a "divine personality". The kind of shining innocence I see in very little human beings that puts a big child-like smile on my face. If we were all allowed to mature with such innocence (in a more perfect world) then we wouldn't be having conversations about ego, we would be tending the garden together under the watchful loving eye of our Mother/Father Self. |
Edited by - alan on Jun 08 2006 3:26:49 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 10:20:45 PM
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I see my ego as the collection of uninvestigated delusional thoughts in my conscious and unconscious mind that I believe to be true about who or what I am.
These delusional thoughts of my ego lead me to actions that hurt myself and/ or others however subtly and continuously point at the truth underneath.
Ouch  , more truth please! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 11:27:23 PM
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I believe the ego is an essential tool for this existence as we know it.
It is what glues together our autonomy and helps us make sense of the barrage of chaotic sense inputs we receive.
It is something that can gradually be replaced by faith in god, or self realization. But i believe that even at that level it is only put aside periodically and temporarily as it is a sort of language that connects us to everyone else in this world, and we are here to develop unity.
When we drop our ego, we disappear to all the others who have one, and therefore lose the ability to communicate with them and help them with our universal goal of unity. |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 11:33:51 PM
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I believe my ego is this here thing talking to you all about what I think my ego is |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 12:59:13 AM
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Lets take the definition of ego from answers.com:
e·go (#275;'g#333;, #277;g'#333;)
n., pl. e·gos.
1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality.
3. a. An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.
3. b. Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem.
I think by the time we got to AYP most of us have already dealt with and defeated 3a and 3b. Whatever we may have, we have from God and God alone, right?
All comes from One, so is anything really distinct? Just because the motion of each wave on the ocean surface is different, does that mean each wave is separate? The ego by the number 1 definion is only an illusion, and through spiritual practice we learn to see through illusions.
God watches us through our own eyes, but we cannot watch God. Once we are truly united with God surely our psyche is of a complete infinite being and not that of a finite individual(ego). Surely the elimination of ego is the final point of our transformation. Ego is only useful as an obstacle on our path.
Zombies cannot love God with all their heart, all their mind and all their soul.. |
Edited by - Chiron on Jun 09 2006 01:05:07 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 08:06:00 AM
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I think we can watch god. he's all around us in everything. We just can't watch all of god at the same time; only a little at a time.
I really don't believe ego is only an obstacle. It's only an obstacle when it is misused, and it is almost always misused, giving it a bad reputation.
Because our goal is to reunite with god, aspirants tend to discount all the value we have gained by separation from god. i believe we separate from god, harvest all the experiences and energy transformations that are only possible as a result of duality, then return to god, rich with experience added value, and autonomy that was not there before. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 09:17:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
e·go (#275;'g#333;, #277;g'#333;)
n., pl. e·gos.
1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality.
3. a. An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.
3. b. Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem.
Here we see why I don't like notions like 'getting rid of the ego'. Not only are the four meanings above highly distinct, even within them there are all sorts of shades. And 'the self' includes all sorts of mechanisms which are essential.
Added to that we have a meaning such as the one being suggested by Anthem, which is more like 'delusion'.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 09 2006 10:36:43 AM |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 09:22:42 AM
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Well said Ether
I think we are the eyes ears and sense organs of god, there to gain experience of matter, we and all gross matter are simply the ones experience of matter.
Oh dear does that makes our ego and power of free thought no more than an accident? 
RICHARD |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 09:30:01 AM
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What I am concerned about in a notion like 'getting rid of the ego' is a phenomenon of 'putting the cart before the horse', as discussed in this post of Frank's here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1198
An attempt to 'get rid of the ego' within certain meanings of the word is no more helpful or useful than 'get rid of the brain'. Within other meanings of the word it may reflect a sensible goal in a sense, but if it is cast in that way, the attempt may be wrong and unsuccessful. People, without a proper yogic/spiritual foundation, may attempt to 'get rid of the ego' in a way they don't understand usefully, and it will produce incorrect results.
Just as 'getting rid of desires' tends to lead to a tremendous false-start, as Frank points out, so with 'getting rid of the ego'.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 09 2006 10:35:56 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 10:40:45 AM
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Well David, instead of getting rid of ego what about seeing truth for what it is and then finding out what that leaves us with?
For example, I noticed last week my ego felt threatened by someone I knew. She irritated me, because I felt she made everyone uneasy with her turbulent emotional reactions. It would change how I acted around her, being cold and unfriendly, trying to convince others of my perspective etc. After looking a little closer at the issue, I realized that she irritated me because she reminded me of things in myself that I thought might be inadequate. After "staring" at them for a while with my awareness, I realized my fears were unfounded and unnecessary thoughts. The next time I saw her, I felt warmth and friendliness towards her, she taught me well!
So bottom line, one less way for my ego to manifest, I'm still here and a little happier for it. What happens when 100 more misperceptions like this one are weeded out, who will I be or how will I feel then? I'm pretty sure I will still be here!
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Edited by - Anthem on Jun 09 2006 10:42:45 AM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 10:50:06 AM
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| I wouldn't worry too much about getting rid of the ego. I don't think the ego can get rid of the ego |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 11:02:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Well David, instead of getting rid of ego what about seeing truth for what it is and then finding out what that leaves us with?
Yes, Yes, Yes!
The answer is in the truth. The enemy is resistance to the truth. All those layers of our personality that are built over falsehoods and delusion.
The delusion-mind does not want to face the truth. Instead, it will even go as far as pretending that the true is true, while still believing what is false.
For example, there is a reason we should not be inflated. The reason is that we aren't that special. This is true. If we face the truth that we aren't that special, we won't be inflated. The delusion-mind couldn't stand for this however, and may even try to be humble instead, and hope that it is earning special brownie-points for that! The delusion-mind will pretend or fake that it is not special, while not standing for, or not facing, the truth of it.
Well, maybe that's a bit off-topic. But I was crystallizing those thoughts and I thought it was worth a mention.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 09 2006 11:02:34 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 11:05:55 AM
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quote:
After looking a little closer at the issue, I realized that she irritated me because she reminded me of things in myself that I thought might be inadequate. After "staring" at them for a while with my awareness, I realized my fears were unfounded and unnecessary thoughts. The next time I saw her, I felt warmth and friendliness towards her, she taught me well!
Nice Andrew. Did you Katie it?
I generally come up with these turn around when I Katie my issues.. at times I have come up with answers that were completely opposite of I thought the answer really was..
You know it's your inner silence making its appearance during your every day life, right?
Wish you many more of these insights..
Thanks for sharing this.
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Edited by - Shanti on Jun 09 2006 11:22:53 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 5:47:56 PM
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It makes sense David, I find writing things down often helps crystalize things.
Hi Shanti,
I actually did and look forward to every opportunity I have to "Katie" it! I find big releases from the process, very rewarding.
I always used Self-enquiry, but Katie's "work" helps me get to the bottom of it more efficiently.
A
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2007 : 01:16:21 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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God created in Man's image?
