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Heartsoflove
USA
19 Posts |
 Posted - May 29 2012 : 5:25:17 PM
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“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
This from the Bible, John 14:16. Has always been confusing to me in view of the Budda, Mohammed, and other enlightened ones manifested throughout history. Why would he say this? Have I interpreted it incorrectly? |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 5:33:47 PM
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Change the word "the" to "is" and it might make more sense.
Talk about losing things in the translation. |
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Heartsoflove
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 6:31:03 PM
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| Oops, it's John 14:6 not 14:16. Yeah I get it during the first part, but in the secod sentence he seems pretty adamant that through him--and only him--can one achieve union with the ONE. I dunno, perhaps am taking a too narrow approach to it and not seeing the big picture. Thanks for your reply. |
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cff
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 7:39:25 PM
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| This is the path of devotion. Lord Krishna advised it to Arjuna as well. They being perfected beings, it is always proper for you to adopt them as examples and thus in due time, you'll attain them or their perfection and will yourself be established in the divine qualities they possess. |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 9:06:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Heartsoflove
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
This from the Bible, John 14:16. Has always been confusing to me in view of the Budda, Mohammed, and other enlightened ones manifested throughout history. Why would he say this? Have I interpreted it incorrectly?
If you equate Jesus to love...it makes perfect sense to me.
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 9:56:45 PM
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Do you think Jesus identified with himself as an individual limited body/mind who was called Jesus? I don't know the answer, I wasn't there, but there seems to be some evidence his sense of self was not limited to an individual body/mind. So what did he refer to when he said 'me'?
I think ultimately though, it's wise not to get caught up in semantics. Let us remember the bible was written 15 to 70 years after Jesus's death, written in the common Greek language of the first century, and then ultimately translated into Jesus.
I think when seeking to understand his message we might be best to move beyond words from ancient translations and mental interpretations of these words, and connect with Jesus's message in our hearts - a message of love. Christianity did not exist as a religion when Jesus was alive, there was simply a man with a radical message.  |
Edited by - mr_anderson on May 29 2012 10:04:12 PM |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 10:20:18 PM
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Hi Heartsoflove,
I know very little about scripture and in no way want to try to place meaning to quotes attributed to Jesus.
I do find it curious that Jesus refers to "I Am" as being the way, (as do so many other great teachers of Samadi)) as "I Am' being an effective Mantra for allowing the mind to go silent.
As far as the second line... It sounds to me that he was saying... I Am is the Mantra and with That he will show us all the other steps it takes to reach Father, Oneness, Enlightenment.
For me, the best advice and lesson I have ever received in my search for these things is..... to develope a twice daily practice of Deep Meditation using any Mantra you want.
Although I Am is probably more effective than most.
But the choice is always yours. The important thing is to develope a habit a sitting twice a day everyday.
My 2 cents.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 11:24:58 PM
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Part is what mr Anderson said. If you go a little further to 14:10 jesus says The words I speak I do not speak of myself, but my father who abides with me does these works.
And the second part is: think of the people Jesus was speaking to. He didn't tell them to write all this down for all people and all time. Those people didn't have access to other enlightened teachers. They didn't have books about them; there was no internet, no television or radio. To those people listening to his words, he was the ONLY way. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 01:02:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
And the second part is: think of the people Jesus was speaking to. He didn't tell them to write all this down for all people and all time. Those people didn't have access to other enlightened teachers. They didn't have books about them; there was no internet, no television or radio. To those people listening to his words, he was the ONLY way.
Excellent point, Etherfish. Never really thought about it that way, but that completely makes sense.
Reminds me of something Yogani said about how--in the dark ages of history--a spiritual teacher was like a lone candle in a vast desert. Now, there are many candles, many ways, many approaches to union with divinity. Hence, the importance of being consistent and persistent in the WAY in which one chooses to commence with acceleration of individual consciousness. In the new Liberation book, here is Yogani's epigraph: In the modern era, everyone can sample liberation for a short while. What we do after that will make all the difference.
So, it seems quite important that we stick with a WAY, whatever it may be, without jumping all over the map like an ecstatically deranged firefly (that metaphor summarizes most of my adolescence and early adulthood).
Good topic. Thank you for posting. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 01:05:45 AM
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I can't tell if you're serious Guy, but I doubt Jesus was talking about the mantra "I Am" haha. 
I think Jesus was probably referring to his path when he "spoke" those words. You have to tread the terrible path that he walked in order to find the Father. Jesus was calling people to find salvation for themselves, something familiar to people here; there's no heaven without first going through hell. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 05:50:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Heartsoflove
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
This from the Bible, John 14:16. Has always been confusing to me in view of the Budda, Mohammed, and other enlightened ones manifested throughout history. Why would he say this? Have I interpreted it incorrectly?
It sort of depends on Who you think Jesus Is. If He is merely a Jewish rabbi born 2000 years ago then the statement does not make a lot of sense. If, however, He is the Eternal Word through Whom all things were made (per the first chapter in John) then He is the Way. But has He only spoken through the Hebrew/Christian scriptures? Or has He perhaps also spoken through the Gita, etc.?
With regard to "other enlightened ones" I think we need to hear their own stories and not try to lump them all together. Mohammed, for one, would consider it blasphemy to call him avatar or "one with God"! Buddha did not talk about God at all, although his followers often consider him a Divine incarnation. Krishna, on the other hand, specifically said He IS the One who incarnates from time to time throughout human history to help and save us.
My take on this as a yogini and an Episcopalian is that Christ cannot be limited to one particular religion. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life in all traditions, perhaps by different names. Note, He said, "Before Abraham was, I am." |
Edited by - Radharani on May 30 2012 05:51:36 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 06:30:20 AM
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Hi Heartsoflove
quote:
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
This from the Bible, John 14:16. Has always been confusing to me in view of the Budda, Mohammed, and other enlightened ones manifested throughout history. Why would he say this? Have I interpreted it incorrectly?
When one goes to the depth of every religion/path.....to the depth of ones very self.....one finds the same meaning. The interpretations/translations varies, but the core in it stays the same as far as I can see.....
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life":
The livingness.....the spark of beingness that is from the Whole...the Breath of life...the Spirit....is both the way to truth, the truth itself and the life that lives. It is the first manifestation from the Whole. It is that in us that sees/hears everything (regardless of whether we notice it or not).....so it is the Witness
The witness is still personal. It is not the me, it is expanded beyond the psyche, but it is still personal...I am. It is pure consciousness and it is personal (personal God if you like).
Implicit in consciousness is the fact of identification...consciousness is always conscious of something..... It is always sticking to something. In our human experience over years and lives, consciousness is first identifying with "the person" (the me - the psyche), then when that is seen through, we identify as the witness. This is still a personal experience (albeit fully expanded), but more importantly: it is still the only way to a deeper unveiling.
All the stages overlap...it is not a linear thing. But eventually one stops going "back and forth" ...crossing the line of truth.
When identified as the Witness, this is consciousness conscious of itself and everything else that is manifest. Many land here because it is so blissful. Jesus did not.
Jusus realization was total. So it did not stop there for him:
No one comes to the Father except through me.":
The Witness is the direct "link to the Father". The witness is changeless and constant, it is ever clear, ever radiant, ever joyful. The Witness is the first manifestation.....the Beingness in time.
Noone comes to "the Father"....to that which cannot be named (translated, conceptualized), that which is impersonal......without first coming to full surrender into the Witness - the Beingness.....the I am.
Since everything springs out of - and dissolves back into - the nameless ("the Father".....or "Impersonal God" if you like), it speaks for itself that the Witness cannot dissolve itself (no more than the me can dissolve itself). But it is still the only way. It is the witnessing that must always come first in order for true understanding to dawn. All that must happen is constant seeing and surrendering. In this now and/or any other now all depending on the impersonal/ the Whole/ the Father - even the identification with the Witness will dissolve.
In my experience this means we also have to be willing to let go of the radiance, the bliss, the love, anything at all.... the very light so to speak. Nothing - not even the pure Joy can be "had" for a place to rest our heads. As soon as we "want it to have" we "lose" it. We have missed the mark then....wherever we are. The unrest (pain.....or stickiness in the heart) that comes from missing the mark (be off the Way) will guide us back to the Way - the Witness - the I am. If we listen...and act on what we hear.
Pure consciousness identified with itself....that identification will also go. But first we must come to it. Since nothing that is not seen....can be fully surrendered. Our first priority must therefore be the listening. The cultivation of that in us that sees and hears.
There is no need (or of no use) to wait in impatience for any of this unfolding. Since it takes the time that it takes. It is at all times hearing what needs to be heard - and acting on it in whatever way we are capable - that matters.
First, the Listening happens only in glimpses, but regardless of how often it happens - this IS always It. And when acting on what we hear (this is where the question of choice come in).....we are in fact expressing directly from the impersonal. So Seeing and Surrendering IS the way, the truth and the life. The rest is not known.
When the last identification drops (the identification with the witness) - spontaneous actions from the Whole (the Father) is a fact. And so yes - Jesus took into consideration who he was speaking to. He spoke to them about cultivating, listening and surrendering to the Witness in them. Since that is what they needed to hear. He also gave them the why: This is the only way to " impersonal God"......"Wholeness"...."the Father".
He knew about the only way from his own direct experience. In him - and in all realized beings anywhere - what used to be an act of surrender (choosing to act on what he heard) had become totally spontaneous. So there was choicelessness.
Noone transcends choice.
When there is choicelessness, the transcender is gone too. There is only spontaneous action. So Jesus was like the Father. He was not the Father (since the Father is without attributes) - but he was like him. For him the facticity of the Father in him was known but not owned. He remained a human being....lighted up from head to toe and far beyond..... and as such is still a gift to all. Just like Buddha, Mohammed and forgive me all the names I have forgotten. Any realized being. And that is the full potential of any human being:
When "Thy will be done" is spontaneously happening through a human form 24/7.
For me - the main message in Jesus words above is this:
The gratefulness and the peace is so immense when it is understood that whenever we choose to act on what we actually hear and see from within....then this is always IT. Never mind the concept of enlightenment!
Listen - and dare to act on what we hear. This is it. We carry on as we must then. Wherever we are. This means every single human being is at all times in the possibility of being total. Regardless of where we are according to the concept of enlightenment.
So I can actually be responsible for myself this way. I find that truly beautiful.......
Jesus - and others who are like the "Father" (or "Mother" for that matter) - overview was total, and he had "nowhere to rest his head". Nowhere was he identified....nowhere had he landed......and....more importantly:
He always "worked". Non-stop including and addressing everything that appeared before him, always giving exactly what was needed.
No more.
No less.
And thank you so much for that Heartsoflove.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 06:31:54 AM
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Radharani....we cross posted  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 08:02:01 AM
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It's the same in the Gita. God is one and the same in everyone, therefore the God that Jesus talks of is universal. It's often easier for someone to accept another person as a representative of God ( or God in personal form ) than to do the more difficult work of finding it within themselves. Of course it's the same God, but it's just easier to see perfection in another and Jesus was perfection ( God in human form ). We all are except we cannot always have that direct recognition and need an interface.
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Heartsoflove
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 08:08:16 AM
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| And thanks to all of you. I go through periods of almost debilitating doubt and it is comforting to know that I can post on this board and find solace. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 08:45:59 AM
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| what a beautiful explanation dear Katrine...thank you so much |
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DoctorWho
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 7:28:40 PM
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Jesus was not referring to ..."Jesus the person" He did not speak those words from any ego-centered point of reference ( I, me, mine ) whatsoever. I have had debates with many Christian friends over this. They believe of course, as many do... that he is saying in effect "Hey, if you don't believe that I, Jesus... am the son of God, you ain't gettin' into heaven".
He did not speak as Jesus (the flesh and blood physical person) but as Christ (the Christ consciousness). He was saying that only by reaching this level of perception (the Christ consciousness/'third eye... located between the eyebrows) inherent in all human beings can one truly know God.
It has nothing to do with any kind of exclusivity of the Christian doctrine. ALL God-realized or enlightened beings know this truth.
Paramahansa Yogananda describes this as well as anyone I've read. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2012 : 03:06:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Radharani....we cross posted
thanks for your beautiful post! |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2012 : 03:07:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Heartsoflove
And thanks to all of you. I go through periods of almost debilitating doubt and it is comforting to know that I can post on this board and find solace.
I, too, find great solace in the wonderful sangha here at AYP! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2012 : 7:38:15 PM
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I think we all go through periods of doubt, but that is an opportunity to strengthen our faith and devotion. Would your ishta abandon you in times of doubt when you have the strongest faith you can muster (which might not be much)? I don't think so.
What's the worst that could happen? Maybe you could lose everything and sacrifice yourself while trying to have faith during insurmountable odds. We should be proud to go that way. |
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2012 : 01:50:21 AM
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I have since taken this 2 ways.
I initially was hard core Christian, then got re-baptised 10 years ago as a 20 something year old. After the baptism, massive amounts of Mystical experiences began to happen, and when I asked my church about it at the time, they scratched their hands and had no clue.
Eventually found my way to a Monastery and all the Orthodox brothers their revealed to me that I was undergoing the "Mysteries of the Kingdom of God"
I am since a Universalist.
I see Jesus saying that, as trying to break through to all the hard headed Jews. Basically saying, look you dont have to try and follow eight hundred some odd rules and kill innocent animals in sacrifices to cover your own sins, but That what Jesus was all about and was teaching was THE WAY.
I have experienced mystical things and ego deaths from initially being a Christian who got rebaptised. It was so powerful and I saw my experiences mirroring that of Mystics across various traditions.
I still consider myself a Christian, but am now more so a Christian Mystic Nondualist. A Mystic dosent choose to be one, but is thrust into the Mystic realm without really having a say. The Nondualist aspect simply because I have seen Nonduality to be a fundamental truth devoid of any religions.
I read a Koan and had a breakthrough that was legit and showed the ground of BEING to exist and be God, in a certain aspect.
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So I think Jesus was just saying, Look "My way is THE way. Leave all your sacrifices and 800+ rules and follow me and I'll show you how"
THen later he says the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. WHen I got this Holy Spirit experience after Baptism, I felt super drawn to meditate and go within. If you google Going within, the Buddhists became scientists of the realms "within" and many of their teachings breakdown all of what happens when you go within,
Its all inter-connected |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2012 : 9:24:41 PM
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| Beetsmyth, I can very much relate to what you describe. I also am a mystic and consider myself Christian (as technically I am Episcopalian) but my theology now is very much Universalist/Vedic. Agree with the "ground of all being" approach - "in Whom we live and move and have our being." |
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