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inquirer
13 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 26 2012 : 11:30:01 PM
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[warnings: non native english speker, long post, lot of things to say, could be better structured. On the other hand - some interesting stories at the end, so I encourage you to keep reading :) ]
Hello everybody! Since it's my first post here let me just quickly thank Yogani - thank you for what you are doing and for the way you are doing it. The 'open source', empirical approach is the only one that can do justice to this amazingly overlooked body of knowledge. There's lot of writings that mix up this universal knowledge with various cultural and dogmatic infusions that only confuse and discourage modern readers, leading to the current state of affairs in which this knowledge doesn't get too much serious attetion from the science community and general public in the West, despite we, as a society, still don't have a clue about it in XXI century...
But to the point - I've been doing AYP practices for around 6 months now. Lately (around a month) the practices consists of asanas, spinal breathing, dynamic chin pump, deep meditation, yoni mudra kumbhaka and corpse pose.
There was not much happening apart from feeling something rising sometimes until some time ago, shortly after adding asanas, it has begun: during meditation spontaneous yoga mudra started happening, then spontaneous dynamic chin pump, then rapid breathing and uddiyana, then some hand waving looking like tai chi (around my torso and head). Once I discovered that those hand movements led me to yoni mudra kumbhaka, but with mouth and ears closed (despite I haven't been practicing this version, just read about it). Actually I feel that this mudra is like a culmination of all those asanas, when happening spontaneously it leads me to enormous energy accumulation in my head sucked out through vibrating uddiyana, straightening the neck and whole spine and locking all possible muscles on the way including facial muscles.
Of course once all this started happening I was sold :) - I knew that what I'm doing is not some sectarian ritual or shallow new age/fitness exercise - it's a practice that allows some instincts/energy inherent to the human species to be more present and lead my body to approach very precise postures that othe people knew thousands years ago... amazing, isn't it :) ?
Even more amazing was the corpse pose period at the end of session. I wasn't doing mantra anymore, just lying there and trying to rest before going back to normal life. But no, the energy wasn't done with me - after a while in silence I felt the urge to move my body to diffrent positions with a steady flow - different asanas that I even haven't heard about. Spine turning, bridge, legs over head, arms forcefully spreading the legs over head...
From time to time during this movement continuum I was reaching some 'optimal' point where I felt I should hold and energy flow started to be very intense (in a ecstatic way) somewhat similar to yoni mudra kumbhaka feeling.
I know waht Yogani has written about the autoomatic yoga - that one shouldn't fall into it completely. But I also know, that holding it back is pointless - it's like stopping the inevitable - if I was forcing to stop some movement it would come back later anyway, only more strongly. What I tried to some success, however, was focusing on mantra with such intensity that I stopped being aware of all the movements. I'm actually quite sure that it's the right way to do, although it's not easy.
Usually there's a problem with knowing when to stop. While in yoni mudra kumbhaka after meditation I know when to stop, since it usually gets so intense on 3,4 or 5th attempt that I instinctively want to rest.
On the other hand when doing spontaneous asanas in corpse pose, I couldn't find any reasonable ending point - I just kept feeling this urge and didn't see the need to stop something that felt like a good thing. So I usually just stopped forcefully and went on (to work, etc).
Today, however, I wanted to explore it just to better understand the nature of this energy. I was a bit tired and ate some meal before meditation (got home very late) and I felt everything was weaker today. For example during meditation there was no this cleansing effect of yoni mudra kubhaka, instead my head was rotating very rapidly and with high frequency (left-right-left-right) and I felt like I didn't know how to further open up the next part of pathway for it, as it usually happens. It may not be important for the point of this story, but I'm mentioning it just in case.
After meditation I tried some samyama (very intense and amazing experience... similar automatic movements started). At the end I went to corpse pose and relaxed, which also led to spontaneous asanas.
As I mentioned earlier I wasn't forcing an end to this process, it just kept going. There was some stretching, legs over head and also - interestingly - lifting legs and head just above the floor. It lead to some very fast muscle vibrations that were definitely targeting the erogenous zones. Similarly fast knee shaking started to prolongue this state and leading me on the brink of orgasm.
It was like some force that knew my body hundreds times better than myself was making me to do some specific leg and head micromovements (while I was laying on my back) that led me to very intense ejaculation. I didn't want to do it, but on the other hand, I wanted to experiment and understand the intent of this force. Shortly after ejaculation I felt uddiyana and other bandhas/mudras contractions that moved some energy upwards, but it was to late, I felt exhausted.
In general I was let down by the way the things went. One of my theories (the one on the pessimistic side) was that all of this was just a sexual instinct that led to releasing of sexual tension. Of course it may be hard to explain all the asans this way, but eg. sometimes I felt that the circular head movement where just to increase sexual stimulation in siddhasana due to changing of body balance. Same with yoga mudra, which just increased pressure on pelvic area.
I know that it may sound a bit provocative, and it indeed is, but I just feel I need to be sure that all those strange things aren't just masked masturbation. I hope you guys will give me some good counter arguments.
On the other hand I was also considering, the the instinctive process wasn't necessarily leading to energy release through ejaculation but to energy movements upwards - hence the automatic uddiyana which maybe could lead to block the ejaculation. But why provoke ejaculation (and I'm almost sure that some of those movements were precisely causing orgasm) just in order to block it - does it generate more energy than just regular uddiyana etc?
This is the most important question for me know, since I know that it may cause me some doubts. I've read of course about kundalini rising and refining, but that's not really what I've experienced here and my experience is most important for me (I want to develop any potential further practices on solid fundamentals).
Some other questions:
Should I learn about different mudras and bandhas (other than basic ones in AYP) in order to help the energy express in the right way? Sometimes I feel like it's helplessly waving my hands here and there in order to reach some position, but isn't precise enough to do it, causing unnecessary movements and distraction. On the other hand if I can guess the purpose eg. to touch my open palms behind my back - it can be very powerful feeling and feels just right. But this particular position would be hard to perform spontaneously without ever seeing it (to much conscious effort is needed to put the hands in a right way).
There's also a question of knowing when to stop. I know about self pacing and agree with it, but for me there usually is no 'too much' feeling or symtoms. On the contrary - I feel longing to let this energy express through being still in meditation, to go further and further with this process which indeed feels like cleaning internally. But with automatic yoga during rest after meditation (or even later, eg. in a park when triggered by Sambhavi) there no definite stopping point - it can go and go, and I haven't never felt such an internatl feedback in order to finish the movements (other than mentioned ejaculation, which isnt't the most desired way to finish meditation practices, at least for me).
Last, specific question - sometimes I feel the hands movement lead to yoni mudra, but sometimes they seem like an end in itself: it looks as if my hands, doing some fancy twists in front of my torso (a bit like indian dancers) are throwing the air upwards. Just as if kundalini was smoke and the hands wanted to move it higher just by moving the air around it. Am I right, or is it wrong interpretation and they are searching for some static mudra?
Again, forgive me such a long, convoluted post, but the questions are really important for me and I wanted to give you some background to better understand them.
Cheers!
I.
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mathurs
United Kingdom
197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2012 : 07:23:21 AM
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Hello Inquirer,
Welcome to the forum.Your English and post is perfect.
As I understnad it there certainly is a sexual element to the ecstatic conduntivity process. But it is more .... divine - for the lack of any other word that I can think of at the moment.
I dont have answers to all the questions that you ask.
But two suggestions /observations:
1. Maybe for a few days just do the asanas and basic flavour of SBP followed by DM and then rest and see how things pan out.
2. As you carry on this will all change - some things will stop, new experinces maybe added - some experiences might continue....
My last observation is that if you are getting all the auto yoga during your corpse pose - rest time - you are not getting any rest.
To this I dont know the answer and I hope someone with more experince or answers will step in and have some advice....
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shades
Sweden
35 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 08:49:03 AM
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I would say to just let these movements be, as they are, and don't resist too much. Maybe just watch 'em happen, and when it seems like a good time, just calm these strong energies down, and keep practicing.
Have had similar expeiences over a few years, now and then, which really interupted my meditation. Not until I found AYP, with the spinalbreathing, and meditation the headaches seem to reduce and are now almost completely gone.
Namaste,
shades |
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inquirer
13 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2012 : 5:30:54 PM
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Shades, Mathurs - thanks for replying!
quote:
Originally posted by shades
Have had similar expeiences over a few years, now and then, which really interupted my meditation. Not until I found AYP, with the spinalbreathing, and meditation the headaches seem to reduce and are now almost completely gone.
It's ok with me, I wouldn't call it a headache since it's obviously something clearing its way, it's marvelous and really motivating (although sometimes exhausting - I feel neck pain each day).
However I probably should put more effort into the spinal breathing part. As intensely as I feel and 'understand' all the mudras and meditation, I still don't get spinal breathing process - unlike the other practices I have to guide it consciously and don't have much internal feedback...
quote:
Originally posted by mathurs
As I understnad it there certainly is a sexual element to the ecstatic conduntivity process. But it is more .... divine - for the lack of any other word that I can think of at the moment.
Definitely, but I wasn't surprised by the mere sexuality, since it was manifesting from the beginning of the practices, but by the direction of this energy - not going upwards, but tending to be released in normal sexual way.
Now, when I think of it, I guess that apart from awakening that energy there must also be present some conscious effort to direct it upwards - at least at the beginning. That's why when I was resting the energy went through 'the nearest exit' by its own inertia. It didn't happen the following days and I felt as all the movements during the rest period were more directed to inverted positions and to direct the energy to the head.
quote:
Originally posted by mathurs
My last observation is that if you are getting all the auto yoga during your corpse pose - rest time - you are not getting any rest.
You're probably right, but other option would be to distance myself from what's happening inside, and that wouldn't be a true rest as well...
[quote]Originally posted by mathurs
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mathurs
United Kingdom
197 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 06:41:39 AM
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Hi Inquirer,
I think most people find spinal breathing more difficult. I have to put more attention into the Spinal breathing process as well. Some days I do get "feedback" - some days I don't but it gets better overtime and the days I dont get the "feedback" are fewer and fewer.
As to my concern about you not getting enough rest and your other questions I am still hoping someone will have a suggestion..... |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 1:45:04 PM
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Hi inquirer, and welcome to the forums!
Inner silence is prioritized here, beginning with setting up a foundation with deep meditation. It is from that base that we move forward while also adding the energetic side. If these two components are not in balance, consider cutting back until that foundation is re-established.
What you do with the lessons, including self-pacing, is, just as it is said in them, your call. Going beyond them makes it your own experiment and no longer AYP.
It is not surprising to see such results when favoring automatic yogas just as the lessons predict. I too have exaggerated some asana out of curiosity that happened to be particularly intense at that point in time and discovered the same principle. The nervous system needs time to purify, to open, and to adjust, and for that an integrated set of practices are put forward that take the whole of it into account.
Refer all the way back to Lesson 10 and see if some of those questions you have are in some way addressed. If not, if you can be more specific about them, maybe we can clear them up.
I hope you do understand my limitation in being able to address them when you both put forward the answers (empiricism - experience-based) and the questions (your experience to date not aligning with the experience of others), along with other concerns (such as doubts, arguments) that are more of a personal matter than what someone else may be able to resolve for you.
All the best. |
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shades
Sweden
35 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2012 : 05:30:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by inquirer
It's ok with me, I wouldn't call it a headache since it's obviously something clearing its way, it's marvelous and really motivating (although sometimes exhausting - I feel neck pain each day).
However I probably should put more effort into the spinal breathing part. As intensely as I feel and 'understand' all the mudras and meditation, I still don't get spinal breathing process - unlike the other practices I have to guide it consciously and don't have much internal feedback...
Pain in the neck probably comes because you don't let these movements occure during the day, when around people for example. It is natural to feel tension when stopping your body from moving by it self. If you stop the indicators of a watch the mechanics will be strained. Maybe you get my point.
That's why you should release some tension each day, and also I would suggest to avoid situations that causes tension, if you can, and have the opportunity. No unnecessary tension at least.
Namaste,
shades |
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inquirer
13 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2012 : 6:36:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
Inner silence is prioritized here, beginning with setting up a foundation with deep meditation. It is from that base that we move forward while also adding the energetic side. If these two components are not in balance, consider cutting back until that foundation is re-established.
What you do with the lessons, including self-pacing, is, just as it is said in them, your call. Going beyond them makes it your own experiment and no longer AYP.
Hello, thank you all for responses!
I understand the need to focus on inner silence and that the rest is secondary, but at the point where I am currently, the more inner silence goes in, the more intense automatic yoga becomes. It's the most apparent during samyama - when a sutra dissolves and the silence comes it's as if I couldn't accomodate it and I'm forced to do all the bendings and mudras automatically.
Sometimes I manage to isolate my mind completely from the movements and foucs intensely on the mantra/sutra but it's isn't a change of quality - the movements continue even more, I'm just not thinking about them and how to guide them. In short - it's hard for me to isolate the inner silence part from the energy part.
As to diverging from the AYP routine - only during the rest period I'm letting go completely and letting my body do whatever I feel it needs to, sometimes it lasts around an hour until it goes back to corpse pose and really rests. Today it even included trying to put right leg behind the head...
If I do it after the regular AYP routine, is it still departure from the AYP way?
quote:
Originally posted by shades
Pain in the neck probably comes because you don't let these movements occure during the day, when around people for example. It is natural to feel tension when stopping your body from moving by it self. If you stop the indicators of a watch the mechanics will be strained. Maybe you get my point.
I meant a neck pain caused my muscle strain (mainly because of vigorous chin pump that I was doing during autoyoga.
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2012 : 4:29:29 PM
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"There's no question that attention, particularly when grounded in inner silence after years of deep meditation, has a purifying effect on the subtle neurology and physical body." -SFP, http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....C_ID=382#300
Asanas and plenty of grounding activities throughout the day are said to be helpful in alleviating automatic yogas. If these are not enough to bring them under some degree of control, then perhaps cutting back for a time just to see if that might make a difference, would be the next course of action.
Also, what you do after the routine is fine, though there can be a doubling-up effect you would have to consider and sort out. |
Edited by - AumNaturel on Apr 08 2012 4:39:44 PM |
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shades
Sweden
35 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2012 : 11:08:42 AM
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inquirer
My experience is that the automatic yoga will want you to go further and further to all sorts of difficult postures. I have even been standing on my head with arms as support just to follow the movements. Also done difficult bending positions. I just mean, that you could go on to these different things but why not take a yoga class instead with similar postures.
You said it; they can get very aggressive and almost until some damage is done to either your head, or some other part of your body (neck for example). |
Edited by - shades on Apr 10 2012 11:10:57 AM |
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inquirer
13 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2012 : 4:10:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by shades
inquirer
My experience is that the automatic yoga will want you to go further and further to all sorts of difficult postures. I have even been standing on my head with arms as support just to follow the movements. Also done difficult bending positions. I just mean, that you could go on to these different things but why not take a yoga class instead with similar postures.
You said it; they can get very aggressive and almost until some damage is done to either your head, or some other part of your body (neck for example).
It's a good question and I was considering it but why force the body to do the routine some hatha teacher chooses if it can tell you what does it need?
On the other hand some guidance would be reasonable. I think that it would be optimal to learn how to perform them and then follow them based on those 'inner needs'. For few days I felt urge to put my leg over the head and I think it will be hard without proper preparation.
But other than that the postures are quite easy and I feel that they are exactly what I need - each time I perform new one I feel surge of energy caused by releasing of some physical tension. |
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shades
Sweden
35 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2012 : 1:16:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by inquirer
It's a good question and I was considering it but why force the body to do the routine some hatha teacher chooses if it can tell you what does it need?
They usually come very uncontrolled, and it is hard to acctually control your practice. Sure you could let them happen for an hour or for as long as you want. Though, as you probably know you can't control the effects. Your body want to get emptied, and it dosen't really care about your job for example.
As far as I know and have experienced, you might get sick from too much of cleaning at once. Depression, phychosis, and other body-mind sicknesses. If you have a life to live, find a more stabile way of reaching emptiness |
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Spontaneous asanas -where's the energy leading me?
