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Gurdosho
Germany
4 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 14 2012 : 2:15:01 PM
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hello ayp-members,
i am practicing pranayama and deep meditation for 3 months. Now, I am more calm and more relaxed than I was 3 months ago; i just feel better. I am sure this is due to pranayama and deep meditation, which i often do more than twice daily. However, I am a big "fan" of OSHO and respect his teachings. His view of meditation is contrary or at least different to the teachings / techniques of Yogani.
Today I read OSHO's book "Jenseits der Grenzen des Verstandes", what confused and irritated me. Somehow I doubt, that the way I am meditating now is not the right way.
I would like to quote OSHO and translate this (the best way I can) in English.
He says:
" Kein Bemühen, dass vom Verstand ausgeht, kann euch über den Verstand herausbringen. Das ist die grundlegende Regel, die man beachten muss."
=> No effort of the mind can transcend the mind. This is the basic rule.
"Aber sie bringen keine Erleuchtung, sie führen nicht zum erwachten Bewusstsein. Und das ist das einzige Kriterium dafür, ob sie richtige Meditation sind oder nicht."
=> But they (=these kind of mediations) cannot bring enlightment, they do not lead you to an enlightened awareness/consciousness. And this is the only criteria whether a special kind of meditation is right or not.
" Einen Baum erkennt man an seinen Früchten, und eine Technik erkennt man, was man durch sie erreicht. Die (Transzendentale) Meditation ist ein gutes Beispiel für all die Meditation, die euch eurer Verstand vorschlägt. Es ist eine schlaue Methode euch auf Abwege zu führen, der Verstand bleibt dabei in Sicherheit - nicht nur in Sicherheit, er wird sogar stärker."
=> You can recognice/identify a tree because of his fruits, and (you recognise/identify) a technique on what you can achieve through this technique. It is a good example for all kind of meditations which your mind suggests. It is a clever method to bring you away from the the right path; your mind stays in security - but not only in security, it gets even stronger.
"Derartige Meditationen sind Konzentrationsübungen. Du konzentrierst dich auf irgendein Wort, ein heiliges Wort, auf den Namen Gottes oder auf irgendein Mantra, und du wiederholst es einfach im Kopf, ..."
=> These kind of meditations are (just) concentration practices. You concentrate on any word, a holy word, on the name of a god or on a mantra, and you keep repeating it, ...
"Wie kann sie euch über den Verstand hinausführen? Es ist ja der Verstand selbst, der das Mantra herunter sagt. Beim Wiederholen braucht er nicht zu denken, das Wiederholen an sich ersetzt die Gedanken. Und durch dieses Wiederholen fällt der Verstand in einen tiefen Schlaf, in einen traumlosen Schlaf, der dich erfrischt und verjungt. Und natürlich kannst du dich zu der Annahme verleiten lassen, dies sei Meditation, Du kannst sie dein ganzes Leben lang machen. Es ist gesund, es ist gut, es nährt dich - aber Meditation ist es nicht."
=> How can it (these kind of mantra-meditations etc.) transcend your mind? It is the mind itself, who says the mantra. It does not need to think when repeating; the repeating itself replaces thoughts. And through this repeating the mind falls in a deep sleep, in a dreamless sleep that refresh and rejuvenates you. And, of course, you can come to the wrong conclusion: this is meditation. You can do it your whole life. It is healthy, it is good, it nourishes you - but it is not meditation.
"Meditation beginnt damit, vom Verstand getrennt zu sein, ein Zeuge zu sein."
=> Meditation beginn with being seperated from the mind, with being a witness.
"Beobachten ist also der Schlüssel der Meditation. Beobachte deinen Verstand. Tu nichts! Kein Wiederholen eines Mantras, kein Wiederholen des Namens Gottes. Beobachte einfach alles, was der Verstand macht. Störe ihn nicht, hindere ihn nicht, verdränge ihn nicht, tu nichts von deiner Seite aus. Sei du einfach ein Beobachter."
=> Witnessing is the key when meditating. Witness your mind. Do nothing! No repeating of a mantra, no repeating of god's name. Just witness everything what the mind is doing. Do not interrupt, do not repress. Do nothing. Just be a witness."
So OSHO doesn't think, that the kind of meditation that among others Yogani suggests is right. In his eyes it is even not meditation, it is a concentration practice.
Jiddu Krishnamurti is, in general, saying the same: "Meditation has nothing to do with concentration on a mantra, on your breath, etc.
Although I appreciated the results Yogani's methods bring, I am very confused whether this kind of meditation is right. Should I continue with Yogani's techniques?
I appreciate any thoughts of members. Maybe it would be great if Yogani himself could say some words.
Thanks in advance.
Gurdosho
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escapado
Germany
88 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2012 : 4:18:47 PM
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Tag auch :)
Once I posted another Osho quote regarding MantraMeditation and it got some light shed on it
Let's shortcut this:
In DM we don't just repeat the mantra unconsciously (is this right grammar? :P) we notice when we lost it and just come back to it. It has many layers of effect. One is the remembering, in the remembering you are aware. Then the sound: the sound of iam has special qualities which you will see when you're advanced. So it actually keeps you awake and in later stages helps you transcend all of the mind. I always depends on how you use it, just look up lesson 15 to see how simple it is and you can't go wrong :) |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2012 : 5:15:46 PM
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 do what you think is right.
Bruce Lee said he was never scared of the man who had learned a million different moves by practising each move once. He was terrified of the man who had practised one move a million times.
You cannot know in advance what move will defeat the enemy, you can only practice for combat by perfecting the set piece and wait for the right time to use it.
Do not confuse practice with combat.
The search for the perfect move is an illusion which will defeat you before the fight even begins.
Know that your opponent is you.
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yogesh
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2012 : 9:08:09 PM
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If you continue to read Rajneesh his opinions will confuse you more and more.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2012 : 10:19:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Do not confuse practice with combat.
The search for the perfect move is an illusion which will defeat you before the fight even begins.
Know that your opponent is you.
WOW! Your depth always amazes me. |
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Buffle37
Switzerland
79 Posts |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2012 : 2:07:12 PM
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Hi Gurdosho,
Yes, as Escapado says, the method of meditation taught by Yogani is not the simple repetition of a mantra. That is called mantra jappa, and that is what Osho is speaking out against. It is also what Krishnamurti spoke out against, and.... Yogani has also advised against it.
Deep Meditation is different from that, and involves bringing the mind to a state of stillness and silence which goes beyond the mantra. In other words, samadhi. It also involves the cultivation of the witness.
The meditation that Osho was teaching is called zazen, or the "do nothing" meditation which comes from the zen tradition. It is also a meditation technique which uses an object (the mind) and cultivates the witness, and brings about samadhi. It is not as powerful as meditation using a mantra, but still is an effective practice.
Christi |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2012 : 11:45:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gurdosho
hello ayp-members,
i am practicing pranayama and deep meditation for 3 months. Now, I am more calm and more relaxed than I was 3 months ago; i just feel better. I am sure this is due to pranayama and deep meditation, which i often do more than twice daily.
Gurdosho
Dear Gurdosho,
It is not recommended to do DM and pranayama more than twice a day (unless in retreat mode for a couple of days). The methods are deceptively simple but the effects powerful. You could easily find yourself in overload down the line and have to stop and start again.
kind regards,
Sey |
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escapado
Germany
88 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2012 : 07:10:28 AM
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| wow karl so nice to read you at times :) |
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Gurdosho
Germany
4 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2012 : 09:48:25 AM
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| thank you guys for your answers. they brought some light in my head. special thanks to christi, buffle and seysorciere. Well explained and good advice |
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n/a
26 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2012 : 4:37:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
do what you think is right.
Bruce Lee said he was never scared of the man who had learned a million different moves by practising each move once. He was terrified of the man who had practised one move a million times.
You cannot know in advance what move will defeat the enemy, you can only practice for combat by perfecting the set piece and wait for the right time to use it.
Do not confuse practice with combat.
The search for the perfect move is an illusion which will defeat you before the fight even begins.
Know that your opponent is you.
karl, this is profound and simple advice. I wish I would have read it years ago! My search for the perfect move has accomplished one thing: paralysis. Just another trick by the ego to ensure that all progress comes to a halt (or never starts!). I can see that now, and it's liberating. I must persevere. I must stay with one practice (or set of practices...AYP, anyone?), because I'll never know until I know; not a moment before.
I am my opponent! It's so clear.
Thanks! |
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Louie
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2012 : 1:23:19 PM
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In my humble opinion, anything that allows you to relax the mind such that it is in an open and receptive state is meditation. I don't care how you got to that state. It is the state of relaxed mind that matters, not the method by which you arrived.
If mantra meditation is working for you, then do not allow some guru to tell you that it is not meditation. He is entitled to his opinion, and you are entitled to ignore it if it does not feel right to you. |
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vijikr
United Arab Emirates
413 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2012 : 1:43:01 PM
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| All I would say is follow your heart! |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2012 : 04:04:45 AM
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the more you read up on yoga the more differing viewpoints you will get, can you come to peace with that? a million gurus, a million paths.
I read a couple of books by Sri Anandamayi Ma, a well known guru. anaways, she basically says any path will get you there when done properly. according to the books I read she mentally downloaded proper ways to do practices that she never encountered and often times would assist a seeker by adjusting their current practice to what she recieved as the proper way. My point is she did not say one way is the right way and one way is the wrong way, she accomodated many ways. million gurus, million paths
so you can read a lot of books and get mixed up in knots mentally, my advice, be at peace with your path unless for some reason that path no longer brings peace. seems many here have great results with yogani's teaching and you have as well so why change? |
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OSHO's opinion of mantra meditation,confusing 4me
