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Ananda
3115 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 28 2011 : 3:48:45 PM
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Thought so also |
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yogesh
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2011 : 4:54:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
"If you see the buddha, kill the buddha."
excellent quote
that is completely out of context in this regard
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yogesh
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2011 : 4:57:58 PM
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If you meet the Buddha, kill him
~Linji
Thinking about Buddha is delusion, not awakening. One must destroy preconceptions of the Buddha. Zen master Shunryu Suzuki wrote in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind during an introduction to Zazen, "Kill the Buddha if the Buddha exists somewhere else. Kill the Buddha, because you should resume your own Buddha nature." One is only able to see a Buddha as he exists in separation from Buddha, the mind of the practitioner is thus still holding onto apparent duality. One translation of "kill" would be with the word "cut" instead - bearing in mind the importance of the sword for the Japanese culture in the days of the Zen foundation. The sword is also an esoteric symbol and one uses a sword to cut through the veils of illusion.
and
Linji also taught with lectures and sermons, which were collected by his students into the Línjì-lù - Japanese: Rinzai-roku), the Record of Linji, which also contains stories of his interactions with teachers, contemporaries, and students. His lectures were a mixture of the conventional and the iconoclastic. He is particularly famous for encouraging his students to free themselves from the influence of masters and doctrinal concepts, in order to be able to better discover their own Buddha-nature.
Famed examples of Linji's iconoclasm include the following:
Followers of the Way [of Chán], if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others. Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it! If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk. Then for the first time you will gain emancipation, will not be entangled with things, will pass freely anywhere you wish to go.
~ WIKI
It's worth noting also that not all the Buddhist sects of Japan at the time agreed with Linji.
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Edited by - yogesh on Dec 28 2011 5:15:00 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2011 : 9:21:20 PM
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From my perspective analyzing any given experience is the definition of "non-relational inquiry." Trying to understand an experience with the mind is like trying to hold onto water with your fist.... an exercise in futility and a waste of energy that could be better spent serving others.
It's been important for me to remember that the practices (purification process) is what causes these experiences and that it is the practices (not the experiences) that create fertile ground for a smooth and full blossoming. I believe it is very easy and common to get caught up in the glory and beauty of "peak experiences" and visions etc and to have subtle and often unconscious desires to repeat these experiences. Yogani's advice to just continue with the practices and not to dwell on any scenery is very wise, albeit challenging. I think that everyone is conditioned, at least to some extent, to want to avoid painful experiences and to indulge in pleasurable ones. But a big part of coming to abide in our "true nature" is becoming fully aware of how this dynamic plays out in our individual lives and learning to release our tendencies to push away certain experiences and to hold onto others. The more we become capable of doing this, the more Life flows effortlessly through us.
These experiences that you are talking about Ananda are beautiful, bhakti inspiring events, but they are still just experiences. Holding onto them, desiring more of them, analyzing them etc all create obstruction that continue to block the free flow of ecstatic silence through us. Best to just thank God/Life for blessing us with a beautiful experience and then make the choice to surrender and let go of it.
Just my opinion.
Love!
Carson  |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 01:34:21 AM
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quote:
I think you said "No more posts for me in this thread"
hehehe could not it help it  ...it seems i cant control my fingers
thank you yogesh for your explanatory post
agree with you dear Carson
lovely sangha ...such a blessing to be part of it
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 01:41:06 AM
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quote:
the importance of the sword for the Japanese culture in the days of the Zen foundation. The sword is also an esoteric symbol and one uses a sword to cut through the veils of illusion.
like the sword of Jnana in Yoga,Indian culture |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 04:07:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogesh
If you meet the Buddha, kill him
~Linji
Thinking about Buddha is delusion, not awakening. One must destroy preconceptions of the Buddha. Zen master Shunryu Suzuki wrote in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind during an introduction to Zazen, "Kill the Buddha if the Buddha exists somewhere else. Kill the Buddha, because you should resume your own Buddha nature." One is only able to see a Buddha as he exists in separation from Buddha, the mind of the practitioner is thus still holding onto apparent duality. One translation of "kill" would be with the word "cut" instead - bearing in mind the importance of the sword for the Japanese culture in the days of the Zen foundation. The sword is also an esoteric symbol and one uses a sword to cut through the veils of illusion.
and
Linji also taught with lectures and sermons, which were collected by his students into the Línjì-lù - Japanese: Rinzai-roku), the Record of Linji, which also contains stories of his interactions with teachers, contemporaries, and students. His lectures were a mixture of the conventional and the iconoclastic. He is particularly famous for encouraging his students to free themselves from the influence of masters and doctrinal concepts, in order to be able to better discover their own Buddha-nature.
Famed examples of Linji's iconoclasm include the following:
Followers of the Way [of Chán], if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others. Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it! If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk. Then for the first time you will gain emancipation, will not be entangled with things, will pass freely anywhere you wish to go.
~ WIKI
It's worth noting also that not all the Buddhist sects of Japan at the time agreed with Linji.
Well I totally agree with him, sounds like my teacher's words and those of Francis Lucille i.e. very advaita vedanta. "Not this, not this."
It also proves that their are others who teach and instruct as Yogani does.
I like this guy Linji, thanks for pointing him out
I've asked my friend/teacher recently about this topic, he said "Don't control the uncontrollable." That is, like he always says "Just let everything arise in your welcoming presence without interference."
Meaning as Yoganiji says, when this stuff arises just watch it and enjoy, don't interfere with it. Focus on the main practice, it is what has already lead you there.
Love,
Ananda |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 04:24:34 AM
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Just read your post dear Carson and it is pretty much in alignment with my reply to Yogesh.
From what I see in your posts, it looks like you guys are somehow discarding bhakti all together.
These experiences just come and go, it's true but never the less they increase my bhakti to the deities or higher beings who have appeared. Bhakti is a path in itself you know. It is what also lead me into AYP and yoga and advaita vedanta for that matter.
I understand where most of you guys are coming from, I really do. But I can't control this flow of love and gratitude. Go ask Ramana why he kept on walking around Arunachala and writing and singing hymns to him and lord Shiva. Also ask Sri Nisargadhatta Maharaj why he kept performing daily puja to the pictures of the enlightened in his room and to his guru... Ask Amma, why are the Krishna and Devi Bhava still conducted... Were these guys non relational in their practices.
During practices one shouldn't get involved but afterwards one is free to do what pleases his heart most as long as the desire for Truth is behind it.
Love,
Ananda |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 05:59:14 AM
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i am a bhakta that is for sure,bhakti lead me to raja,karma and jnana yoga...daily i sing bhajans and bow down to pictures of saints in my meditation room before doing my ayp sitting practices....but i dont encourage (nor discourage) visions,that is all.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 07:18:19 AM
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There is your way and that of others also.
I see visions of saints and higher beings as good signs so do a lot of others. And they've been very significant in my path each time one of them has happened. If you read the life of saints, visions have been an integrated part of their lifes and a lot of them have taken decisions according to visions.
To each his own I guess. The most important thing is a real desire for Truth behind it all.
Salam |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 07:38:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
To each his own I guess. The most important thing is a real desire for Truth behind it all.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
. As long as there is a desire, a drive, a devotion then that is all that is needed.
Even meditation is scenery.who can judge one egg better than the next? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 09:42:44 AM
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Hi Ananda
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
From what I see in your posts, it looks like you guys are somehow discarding bhakti all together.
I'm not dismissing Bhakti (or Bhakti Yoga) at all actually. We're all (to one degree or another) bhaktas or else we wouldn't be here, and we wouldn't be doing practices. All the different yoga paths are connected and trying to separate them only creates disconnectedness and increases feelings of separation (in my experience).
Whenever I try to define my path as one thing or another, dismissing everything else (fully or partially), I seem to create even more artificial separation between myself and others who've chosen a different path. It's very common for people to say stuff like, "I am a Christian and it's the only one true path," or "I am an AYP Yogi and it is the fastest route to enlightenment." But in my opinion, anytime we attach to a label we limit ourselves.... we put ourselves in a box that keeps us from being our true nature (limitlessness).
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
These experiences just come and go, it's true but never the less they increase my bhakti to the deities or higher beings who have appeared. Bhakti is a path in itself you know. It is what also lead me into AYP and yoga and advaita vedanta for that matter.
Using these visions (or any of our emotions, experiences, thoughts etc) to increase bhakti is great, but whenever we hold on to them (which includes over-analyzing and desiring more of them) we are limiting ourselves from experiencing/seeing/being more. As Yogani says, enlightenment is letting go... and it's not a letting go of *some* stuff, it's a letting go of *everything*, including our desire for enlightenment and our need to understand or repeat our experiences. Just my limited perspective.
Hope you had a wonderful Christmas and I hope you have a great New Years as well.
Love!
Carson |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 1:45:36 PM
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Returning to the original post, I don't see any dwelling on scenery, "non-relational self-inquiry", or analyzing his experience. I see Ananda sharing his experience and wanting a discussion on that. I think much of this convo has become a huge projection snowball. Personally, I feel that rejecting our experiences is just as unhealthy as clinging to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
While being deep in meditation, I would get identified with higher beings, teachers and saints. This has been occurring the most with Sri Ramana Maharshi. My face would become his face, or it would be like his figure is being imprinted on mine and I would be him sitting in meditation. Then throughout the day I would sometimes be overwhelmed with a silent presence and move or do a gestures while feeling my face in precise similar to someone of these higher beings I've seen before.
I've never experienced identification with beings like you're describing, bro. Higher beings like to touch my crown, heart, etc. and alter my energies, but that's the extent of it. Those kinds of experiences never happen to me during sitting practices tho, they mostly happen at night when I'm trying to sleep.
Thanks for opening this interesting topic, Ananda. Happy holidays to you all
Love
cosmic |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 2:12:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
Returning to the original post, I don't see any dwelling on scenery, "non-relational self-inquiry", or analyzing his experience. I see Ananda sharing his experience and wanting a discussion on that. I think much of this convo has become a huge projection snowball. Personally, I feel that rejecting our experiences is just as unhealthy as clinging to them.
Exactly as I see it. It might just as well be an indication that Ananda should begin looking in another direction, who can know? I wonder if it crossed Arujas mind to dismiss the vision of Krishna ?
It is what it is.
Happy new year to one and all. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 3:29:12 PM
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Hi cosmic
quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
I don't see any dwelling on scenery, "non-relational self-inquiry", or analyzing his experience.
When I mentioned "non-relational inquiry" it was mainly because of Ananda's comment of "I am just trying to understand what's happening" from this post here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....=10868#93034 I have spent plenty of time trying to understand my own visions during practices and this only caused me to get caught up in lots of non-relational inquiry. When I first started AYP I went through a very lengthy period of non-stop visions during DM (see my topic about "Visions/TV in DM") and I used a lot of time and energy trying to understand what was happening. In hindsight, the time and energy used trying to understand these experiences could have been much better used in service etc. So yes, as you say, my comments were all projection, or at least based on my own experience/framework, but I didn't think it would hurt anything to share my own experience with the content of this topic. Perhaps I was wrong. It's happened once before.  
quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
Personally, I feel that rejecting our experiences is just as unhealthy as clinging to them.
I agree, but I was not in any way saying that Ananda should reject his experiences. Was just mentioning that trying to understand our visions, dreams and experiences etc, results in a lot of wasted energy in my experience. Obviously we each have to travel our own paths though.
Love!
Carson
P.S. Probably best for me to just keep my mouth shut... I likely wouldn't know a "higher being" if He/She punched me in the mouth.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 5:54:38 PM
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quote:
I wonder if it crossed Arujas mind to dismiss the vision of Krishna ?
oh no we would not have had the Gita |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2011 : 11:39:34 PM
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Hey Carson
I see your point bro, and in fact agree that trying to understand mystical experiences with the logical mind is futile. I just didn't see Ananda as doing that. He's practiced AYP probably as long as I have, so I'm sure he knows what to do with "scenery".
I was responding more to posts like this, which are discouraging the discussion:
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
since you already know it is couterproductive scenery why dwell on it?
even Ramana would disapprove...
I feel that we should respect each other's journey and be able to speak freely about these kinds of experiences. It's not for any of us to dictate how another will find meaning in their own experience. I know that when God comes to me in these different forms, I am open to the experience and wonder what it means. That doesn't mean I stop practicing because I've "made it" or that my mind is fixated on finding an answer 24/7. I know that in the end, all will be revealed. All will be revealed.
Praise God in all His/Her forms
Much love to you brother Ananda for having the courage to discuss this openly!
Love to all my AYP fam
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I likely wouldn't know a "higher being" if He/She punched me in the mouth.
Hahahaha! Socktipat to the face chakra!
Love all ways
cosmic |
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vijikr
United Arab Emirates
413 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2011 : 06:12:17 AM
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Love the Quote Kill the Buddha and Yogesh's post thanks.All I would say is just enjoy the Scenery and be happy that you are blessed soul to get them and LET GO and GO Ahead with practices as usual.I remeber Ramakrishna story in which when a saint comes o ramakrishna to give him shaktipat he'll tell the sage to wait and say I'll go and ask my mom. He went in and asked Ma kali so and so has come as u said and what should I do? Ma kali told ramakrishna that he'll give you shaktipat and Ma Kali gave ramakrishna her sword so that he CUT the CONNECTION with HER which is holding him back from taking his Journey beyond.
So Ananda ask your Ma kali for her sword to CUT the same ego for which the sword represents.
Salam |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2011 : 07:58:20 AM
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quote:
I was responding more to posts like this, which are discouraging the discussion:
quote:Originally posted by maheswari
since you already know it is couterproductive scenery why dwell on it?
even Ramana would disapprove...
dear Cosmic ,i respect your opinion but your interpretation of it (sabotaging the discussion) is far fetched...please check my other posts in this same thread where i explain more clearly what i mean ,which is very similar to Carson's replies....
thank you Vijikr...this story has lots of wisdom in it
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yogesh
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2011 : 09:05:54 AM
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"I remember Ramakrishna story in which when a saint comes o ramakrishna to give him shaktipat he'll tell the sage to wait and say I'll go and ask my mom. He went in and asked Ma kali so and so has come as u said and what should I do? Ma kali told ramakrishna that he'll give you shaktipat and Ma Kali gave ramakrishna her sword so that he CUT the CONNECTION with HER which is holding him back from taking his Journey beyond."
Yes but Sri Ramakrishna never gave up worship of Mother Kali throughout his entire life and held her worship as highly as anything else.
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vijikr
United Arab Emirates
413 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2011 : 09:16:07 AM
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| agreed yogesh yep he never gaveup praying to her. |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2011 : 09:27:55 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2011 : 2:36:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
dear Cosmic ,i respect your opinion but your interpretation of it (sabotaging the discussion) is far fetched...
Hi maheswari, I respect your viewpoint too, as well as our difference of opinions. I didn't say you were sabotaging the discussion, only discouraging it. That's my opinion and I admit it could be wrong.
My stand is one of support for having an open discussion on the original topic: sharing experiences of identification with higher beings. It seems to have gotten side-tracked.
With Love
cosmic |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2012 : 11:09:31 AM
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Thank you for your time everyone, sorry for the late reply but I was up in the mountains and didn't have internet access. Well I had for about a few minutes once but my reply didn't get posted
Sorry dear Carsonzi for not tagging along in an argument, It just feels like smthg I shouldn't do. Anyways, I think I've already explained my point of view on the whole thing. Shanti said it best IMO and I am along those lines...
As for the experience itself, well it's kind of forgotten now
As for what you went through dear Cosmic, I don't know if I've told you this before. But when I was about 19 years of age, I had what you may call my first spiritual teacher. But he taught me mostly about spirits and how to deal with them ect. Relating to your topic, I haven't been through that particular sadhana but my teacher told me once that he took on a sadhanna to call on angels to be in his presence. It required 40 days of fasting and constant daily prayer and abstenance from sex and the required daily rituals. Now you know why I didn't go through it back then
When the awaited day came, one of the main things that happened is exactly the same description you shared
There was also a lot of other scenery involved, like the presence of a beautiful radiant peace and a heavenly perfume
But there was a warning for that sadhanna he did, don't ask these higher beings for anything material or egotistic to put it in better terms. Otherwise, the fingers of your hands and feet will be broken as punishment.
That's what I remember
Dear Viji, thank you for the lovely story. After those 10 minutes access to the internet, I was able to read your reply and took your advise wholeheartedly. I asked Ma if it's best not to be too attached to being dependent on her and believe it or not I've heard a reply. It was a gentle warm yes with a blessing. I personally always thought that to be devoted is one thing and to be attached another. To be devoted is different from being dependent, it's just flowing sweet love
A lot of the enlightened beings we know of who are still in the body or have left it always continued on with either their practices (like Yogani) or with their devotion to their beloved (like Ramana.)
I might be wrong, who knows. All is good I guess.
Much love to all of my AYP family and I wish you a happy new year filled with love and Joy for you and your loved ones and all of existence
Namaste |
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Identification with Higher beings
