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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 11:45:04 AM
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Greetings,
I have often read about the still-mind as a product of meditation. I wondered exactly what this was? Try as hard as i might, i cannot understand how it is possible to have awareness without thoughts. It doesn't make sense to me. What do people mean when they say they go into a thought-less state?
The goal of Yoga, according to Patanjali, is the cessation of the mental modifications (ie thoughts). But within AYP, the mantra meditation given from the beginning is claimed to produce the thoughtless state. Again, i am confused.
I have used the I AM mantra for about a year and a half and in all that time i haven't experienced the things that most people do. All that happens with me is i close my eyes, get comfortable, and start repeating the mantra in my mind. Thoughts are not irritating to me and they are not my inner reading voice but more like pictures. So when i notice i am off the mantra repitition, i think it again. This doesnt seem to produce concentration for very long (maybe 2 seconds) and it is exactly the same experience i have when i am awake and walking around singing a song in my mind. In fact, i used to have panic attacks and i found that i forced my mind to sing to block out negative thoughts so that there is always music playing in my head non-stop. This is irritating when i try to meditate because the music is "loud". But i have never experienced bliss, chakras, visions, kundalini, or stillness of thought.
Another point about the mantra is that i find it very difficult to NOT pronounce it whereas Yogani says to just listen to the "sound" of it.
I'm thinking that perhaps this meditation is not for me. Perhaps i should just meditate with the music in my head as a focal point of concentration?
As to spinal breathing, i am naturally skeptical and there are many things about it i cannot understand. For example, the cool and warm currents going up and down the spine; this sounds to me like a form of auto-suggestion. Pratyahara is supposed to occur at some point and in terms of physiology i cannot understand how this occurs?
Paramahansa Yogananda said that Kriya was a method whereby human blood was decarbonised and recharged with oxygen. i.e the special form of pranayama breathing in kriya induces the maximum amount of oxygen into the blood, and in parallel via relaxation and healthy eating plus stillness the "carbon" in the blood is reduced to nothing, which enables the heart to stop pumping dark blood into the lungs, effectively making the heart and lungs still. Then the body goes into suspended animation and pratyahara happens automatically. When this automatic pratyahara occurs, the mind is plunged into stillness because the sensory data is shut off not only from the physical body but also from the subconscious.
This is Yogananda's explanation. But Yogani told me he didnt understand this explanation regarding oxygen in the blood; he said that kriya (spinal breathing), on the contrary, is about drawing on unused fat supplies (energy) and sexual energy which enables kundalini to rise.
So, what is going on? How can Yogananda, one of the greatest Yogis of modern times, get something like this wrong?
Pratyahara - what is it? What happens during pratyahara in the body?
I have a friend in India who tells me she can feel the cool and warm currents in the spine. I asked her if she had ever experienced pratyahara and she said, "no". I find this extremely strange. She also says she can hear AUM and see the spiritual eye. But my understanding is that these experiences are very advanced - hence my confusion over why she has never experienced pratyahara.
If anyone could shed some light on all this, it would be much appreciated.
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Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 06 2007 12:36:27 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 12:53:47 PM
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Hi Gumpi - I have responses to a few of your questions, based on personal experience rather than an in-depth knowledge of yoga. Don't try to stop your thoughts during meditation, and don't think that because you're thinking, you must not be meditating. The thoughts are there, along with other awarenesses, and you'll do well to sit with it all, knowing that it's part of the process. The only thought that will interfere with meditation is "I must be doing something wrong in meditation". As soon as I dropped that thought (which took a while), my meditations improved considerably.
As meditation starts to 'open up' for you, it takes on its own flavor, and from what I've read on the forum, there are no 2 experiences that are the same. I got a little depressed reading about someone's constant state of bliss, or columns of ecstasy running up and down their spine day and night, because that hasn't been my experience at all. But we all have our own inner dynamic, which unfolds as you go deeper into the practices.
You may be experiencing more inner silence than you reailze. In the beginning they manifest as points of stillness, like tiny little dots during your meditation wherein you 'lose' yourself for a fraction of a second. Sort of like how it feels when you doze off and wake up again, but the duration is just a dot of time. Those points of stillness get longer as you continue with the practices.
That's all I have to say!  |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 12:56:46 PM
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quote:
This doesnt seem to produce concentration for very long (maybe 2 seconds) and it is exactly the same experience i have when i am awake and walking around singing a song in my mind
It is NOT the same state as waking. Next time when u start meditating after say 10 mins suddenly open your eyes. You will realize the difference between the two states. Also if you notice, the thoughts in meditation are more like the ones in dreams and not as logical as in a waking state. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 1:39:04 PM
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Hi David,
How about giving spinal breathing / meditation routine 6 months (like you said)... in the process actually trying to cut down on your drinking. Not give it up.. but reducing it.. so if you have 3 drinks a day, make it 2 and 1/2 for a few weeks, then 2 drinks.. and so on.
We could give you a whole lot of explanations on if AYP is good or Kriya Yoga is good, or if the blood gets more oxygen when you do pranayama.. or if the large store of prana in the pelvic region will move up .. or if Yogananda is right or Yogani is right.. Does it really matter? Listen to yourself.. don't you think your ego is just making excuses so it does not have to follow your heart.
Lets not worry about what is under the hood for 6 months.. Twice a day.. go through spinal breathing for 10 min followed by meditation for 20 min. Take plenty of rest coming out of meditation. When you sit.. don't expect to feel hot or cold currents in your spine.. don't expect to have any bliss during meditation.. don't expect silence.. don't expect aum.. don't expect anything... like Jim always says.. like brushing your teeth.. sit.. put some pillows around you.. make yourself comfortable.. close your eyes.. watch your thoughts.. start "i am"..
In the 20 mins you do it.. all of it could be thoughts.. maybe you will "i am" for a few secs a couple of time.. don't question it.. don't analyze it.. just go through the process. It will seem like nothing is happening.. but if you are sitting, something is happening.. If you are getting frustrated.. if you are asking all these questions.. it means something is happening. Don't let your ego win.. esp. after a couple of drinks.. your ego will try to convince you its not worth it.. Hey, if you meditate.. are you losing anything? Give it the six months you decided on.. if after that you are still convinced its not worth it.. go ahead and meditate on your music... |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 28 2006 1:42:09 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 3:36:45 PM
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Hi David. Please forgive my purging of my experience over on the 'frustration' topic; hopefully I'm done writing that sort of thing . Everyone's experience is a different universe.
I don't remember now, is drinking something you want to keep doing, or are you trying to find a way to drop it? I remember reading somewhwere in Yogananda's writings about a man he'd initiated into Kriya who did the practice with a bottle in one hand and eventually dropped it. I'm sure there are also those who attain liberation in the midst of alcohol and whatever. Perhaps whole-hearted bhakti is a key to that approach. If drinking doesn't enhance sadness or distract you from your meditation then maybe it's not a problem.
I'm with Shanti on giving spinal breathing/meditation a go for 6 months as you had said you might try. Drop expectations. Having an image of what you expect to experience is not going to make something happen. I think Kriya and AYP spinal breathing are close enough to be considered the same basic process. What we hear of that others experience is not what we will know in our own time. The only thing you might expect if you were to follow through with the practice is a growing sense of peace, quiet, even-mindedness or some such pleasantry. enjoy, alan |
Edited by - alan on Apr 28 2006 3:43:25 PM |
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 4:05:41 PM
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| The story about Yogananda and the man doing kriya with a bottle in one hand was from one of Donald Walters' (Swami Kriyananda) books. Too bad that story ever got published. That story probably kept me drinking (and trying to meditate) for an extra six months. Progress in meditation and alchoholic drinking are incompatible. It isn't even worth debating. Anyone who thinks they're an exception to the rule, thinks they're an exception to the rule. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 5:27:15 PM
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| Alan, I think it took a lot of courage to say what you did in the "frustration" post. You don't have to apologize. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 6:11:05 PM
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David,
welcome to the forum.
David said:
So, what is going on? How can Yogananda, one of the greatest Yogis of modern times, get something like this wrong?
Paramhansa Yogananda can just be wrong. Why not?
He was a Great Yogic Missionary, that I will grant him. He brought Yoga to the West. But was he a great teacher of Yoga? Maybe 'great' in the sense that 'Alexandar the great' was 'great' meaning, 'of great impact'. A fine teacher of Yoga, certainly. But was he great in the sense that 'Patanjali' was great? I don't personally think so, and I think he's been mythologized out of all proportions, as if he is some sort of Yogic Avatar, who can't possibly be making the odd boo-boo here and there.
For advice on meditation practice, I'd personally favor Yogani as a Rishi over Paramhansa. The latter is more famous, but the former I believe has a greater quality of teachings, at least on the intellectual level.
On the matter of alcoholism, if you are genuninely experiencing alcoholism, your best advice on recovering from it may be from recovered alcoholics (e.g. Alcoholics Anonymous), rather than from spiritual teachers. Their advice and support is available in every town. Trust them to be the experts on alcoholism -- they know a lot more about it than most spiritual teachers do.
Your spiritual practice (as given to you by spritual teachers) can augment and help your recovery, as taught to you and supported by alcoholism experts. But it must not take precedence over it. Give A.A. precedence in alcoholism matters.
There is a well-known and well-loved Tibetan Spiritual teacher who quite literally drank himself to death not too many years ago. Unfortunately he did not treat his condition properly, and he may have made the mistake of thinking that his spiritual practices were a way out of his predicament in themselves. They were not, as his death showed us.
So, use the right tool for the right job. If alcoholism shows up, go straight for those who have most expertise.
Regards,
-David |
Edited by - david_obsidian on May 22 2006 10:06:02 AM |
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BluesFan
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2006 : 6:33:37 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
Just to add a little to what the others have already said... I am very very moderate drinker (ie a 12 pack of beer lasts me a couple of months generally). Because I have read so much about the health benefits of red wine, I have recently start trying to drink a little red wine on a daily basis. However, from experience I can tell you that if I ever allow myself to get even the tiniest, slightest buzz from alcohol...my next couple of meditation sessions are screwed. I have a friend that has had the same experience. I've found that I can take in a little alcohol and still have effective meditations but if I ever over-step and get a buzz, I've jacked up my next meditation. The alcohol seems to have a spiritually de-sensitizing effect on me. Currently I drink about half a glass of red wine 5 days a week. Any more than half a glass and I can feel it, so I limit myself.
Also, meditation is like climbing a mountain. Often times we don't realize how far we have come until we look back down to where we have come from. This has been my experience anyway.
My two cents on your frustration: Completely drop any and all expectation in terms of experiences that you feel you should be having. Don't let the ego get involved and start comparing yourself with others. It happens all the time that spirituality gets perverted by the ego much like anything else. Have no expectations, meditate for the sake of the experience itself. You'll know the "thoughtless state" when you get there. Funny thing is...the second you realize and think "wow, this is it"...it's gone! You're back to thinking by labeling it. And don't try to stop your thoughts either. Let them go by like clouds in the sky. All the mental events (music, thoughts,etc) are the clouds and YOU are the sky. I used to think of what was going on in my mind like a television set. I'd just watch the images that flashed by.
But most importantly: get rid of the alcohol if you are drinking to the point of feeling ANY kind of effect from it. It's numbing you to the spiritual side of yourself. Also, facilitate your physical health by trying to eat healthy and get regular vigorous exercise. I've found that helps my spiritual life tremendously.
And truth be told, I doubt there is a person in here who hasn't felt the frustrations of "i'm not getting anywhere". |
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Blue Opal
33 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2006 : 05:36:07 AM
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quote:
We could give you a whole lot of explanations on if AYP is good or Kriya Yoga is good, or if the blood gets more oxygen when you do pranayama.. or if the large store of prana in the pelvic region will move up .. or if Yogananda is right or Yogani is right.. Does it really matter?
Of course it matters. Shob-i maer icche ja hobar houk je ja khushi boluk bole boshe thakle to cholbe na.  |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2006 : 11:50:50 AM
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Gumpi,
It is frustrating to hear stories from others when you don’t feel like you’re progressing as quickly as you would like. I just hope you’ll keep practicing your meditation anyway. I would focus on the meditation until you feel more content in your practice.
Gumpi, it took me at least a couple of years (perhaps more!) while meditating, to come to the state of pure awareness with no thought. And now, after samyama, sometimes I just sit in perfect silence, with stillness so sweet and so calm. The silence may extend into my early morning, the peaceful quiet enveloping the place where I am.
Gumpi, eventually you will get to a place where this quietness surrounds you in your entire waking consciousness.
It will not happen overnight. It will not happen in months, and perhaps, not for years. Only you are able to decide if you really want to pursue this path. Or any path that leads to spiritual growth. In this life or in another.
When I was younger and meditating, I had no one to guide me or speak to regarding this journey. So when silence came, when stillness came, when currents of energy running up and down my spine came, I just accepted it, did not know what it was about, but I just continued…. I didn’t have others around me discussing events they experienced, so I didn’t feel any need to follow a time line, or compare my experiences to that of others.
We each have our own path and it will take as long as it takes. If you continue your meditations, you will find other benefits besides the stillness and silence… Peace grows. Calmness grows. Your relationship with the human race becomes more loving. These things are worth sitting down for twenty minutes twice a day.
It is fine if you don’t have concentration for long in meditating. This means you are clearing out stress, old feelings, and other things that AYP’rs refer to as cleaning the windshield. The important thing is to notice, hmmm, I’m off the mantra, back I go…and resume your I AM. No recrimination, no frustration, just gently return to it and continue. And when you’re done, rest sitting for a moment, and then, in your case, I would suggest you lie down flat on your back for a few moments longer.
In light and love,
Kathy
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2006 : 12:35:13 PM
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Kathy's said it all really, I would just like to add one small point, don't look for results during meditation most changes are experienced out of meditation during your everyday life and they are really the changes that count.
RICHARD |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2007 : 12:36:27 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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mladenpavlov
1 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2007 : 1:51:26 PM
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Hello!
It is often very difficult to let myself think about nothing for one minute in the beginning of the meditation but according to AYP I should have streams of thoughts but i shouldn't be minding them for about one minute before i gently bring in the mantra. Often I start to think about something important, so I pay more attention to my thoughts than I should. Sometimes I need more than 10 minutes to be able to think about nothing ,which i pay attention to, even for 30 seconds. Please, could somebody help me about this problem? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2007 : 3:11:52 PM
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Hi mladenpavlov
Welcome to the forum!
It is a very common idea that you should think about nothing during meditation. However, it's not quite so, and not even possible, at least not from the very beginning. I couldn't do that either even after having practiced for a while now. It's practically impossible to stop thinking by will. So I understand your wonders about that! I'd be so tired if I tried!
As you say yourself - according to AYP we just let those thoughts be there. Just give up the idea of trying to stop your thoughts. Let them be and just calm down for a minute, then introduce the mantra. The mantra will be the tool that "pushes" the thoughts away more and more as you go on practicing! The mantra will take place instead of thoughts. But thoughts will continue to come and go during the meditation. That's how it should be. And it's nothing wrong with thoughts being there all the time. That's how we're designed.
This lesson describes the process nicely:
http://www.aypsite.org/13.html
It is recommended to read the lessons from the beginning to get a hang of it quickly.
Good luck and lovely to see a new practitioner! |
Edited by - emc on Oct 23 2007 3:13:06 PM |
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enlightenmealready
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2007 : 11:29:11 AM
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I have to echo what BluesFan said. I'm in no way a problem drinker from the standpoint of social norms. I don't drive drunk, I never drink to the point I loose control of my emotions or actions, and I never screw up the next day with a hangover. That being said, I have come to understand why so many religious an spiritual systems discourage the use of alcohol.
I have not been the most regular with my meditations by any standard. That being said, I have still done it enough to realize that getting buzzed will totally screw up my meditation practice for a few days.
As meditation becomes more important to my lifestyle, I am now considering giving up social drinking all together. I'm simply tired of it jacking up my spiritual growth. Religions tend to put a "Thou Shalt Not!" spin on the rule. I think that is unfortunate because it stirs up the rebel in us. Our ego gets fired up, and we tell ourselves drinking isn't a problem. We then prove this to ourselves by being normal in every social sense of the word. From a spiritual standpoint however, I think we "social drinkers" are just as stagnated by alcohol as a 12 pack a day drunk. I think it is very important that we come to this sort of realization on our own as apposed to an authority figure laying down the law.
My two cents :-)
EMA |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2007 : 8:02:26 PM
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I would say Gumpi that I am in your boat, though I have become less the skeptic. It also says in Patanjali that one must accept essentially Yoga as the Truth, and be firm in that belief. It has always occured to me that you are highly skeptical, which I don't blame you because it is pretty wild stuff compared to the Western view of reality...it is simply a leap of faith we must take that I think can really move us along. Just take comfort in the fact that these practices have been around since BC and have obviously worked. If it is all autosuggestion...what exactly does that mean, anyway?
I don't feel amazing inner silence or ecstatic conductivity yet, but as Yogani teaches, who cares if you have this or that vision or feel this or that current during the practice? That is only roughly 40 minutes of your, what of the remaining 16+ hours? You have to look at the rest of your life if you choose to gauge your transformation and for me it ranges from a heatheir sex drive to not getting so pissed off when someone cuts me off on the road. These things are truly invaluable and I'm not sure I would trade them for an intense energy experience here and there, though I know those things will come with time. I think skepticism is healthy, but also can lead to your own inhibition. There is certainly a part of us Western folk that truly does not want to accept the paranormal and existential. We hear of coal-walkers studied by Western science and verified, we hear of psychics used by the Government for ages, and all these "undeniable" phenomena...yet we continue on the Newtonian-Cartesian path and shrug "hm, thats nice...". I think partially we dont want to experience these things because it would really upset our steadfast clinging to notions we have been raised on. Though I believe I would like these things, sometimes when I feel on the verge I feel myself backing off. Trust the process is all I can say, I'm with you.
And also, everyone seems to be mentioning alchohol. I myself have never gotten into drinkning...and that is mainly because I have never found is existentially or spiritually illuminating as someone who's first experience on drugs was marijuana and psychedelics. I would reccomend not using it for a while and see the effects. There are obviously people here who can speak from experience. |
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Eddie33
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2007 : 7:35:49 PM
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good post..
yeah it seems like your too skeptical maybe. i am too skeptical as well. and i can see how it affects me. it's not our fault. there's so much damn information it almost sucks. all the different teachings can have you torn in a zillion different directions not knowing what the heck to do till you eventually surrender to some inflated ego of a guru (cough cough adi da cough cough).. Don't be like those people,,
just sit down and shut up, j/k.. that last part i barrowed from brad warner.
my advice just be with whatever your feeling and breath
"don't scrath" |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2007 : 8:39:07 PM
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Gumpi, pratyahara isn't an experience, it's a practice. In fact, though it's not often spoken of, it's one of the eight legs of yoga, on equal footing with meditation or asana.
I hope the following is helpful (it was based on a few years of practice):
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1818
As for when to expect things to happen and in what order, that sort of thinking applies to worldly attainment. When you learn to play violin, there is a certain progression with certain benchmarks to expect. This stuff isn't like that, though people absolutely can't resist superimposing that model. It doesn't fit. And expecting it to fit, or looking for a given result in yourself or others, is a biiiiig distraction that's best avoided. We're not "getting better at spirituality" by practicing, ala getting better at violin by practicing music. The latter is additive - we add on to ourselves skills and attainments. The former is subtractive - we wash mud off our windows and learn to stop resisting. I know this reply is unsatisfying to the mind, but the mind has nothing to do with any of this! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 28 2007 8:44:20 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2007 : 05:56:10 AM
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Hi Eddie,
quote:
till you eventually surrender to some inflated ego of a guru (cough cough adi da cough cough).. Don't be like those people,,
I am not sure if you are aware, but direct critisism of spiritual teachers is not permitted on this forum.
Christi |
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