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Swan
India
256 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 08:17:08 AM
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Hmmm...
Towards something ofcourse makes sense. But do we need/should we have a set finishing line or timeline?
May be we can grow like a tree or a baby grows - without target or a deadline  . In essence, the direction would be important and nothing else! actually, making it sounds little contrary to surrender.
my two pennies.
Namaste |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 08:44:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda Remember, if you think you can't make it in this lifetime, the chances are pretty good that you won't.
Then there are some of us who aren't interested in "making it". We are just living life day by day, and that's enough.
Then why have this discussion in the first place?
"Making it" for this discussion is like to "grow." But to grow, means to grow towards something. Unless you are growing in circles (the great cycle of life).
No, as Swan says, plants just grow without trying to "make it".
"Making it" implies there is a goal. Plants just grow in the direction of the sun but don't "make it" to the sun. Enlightenment is like that - growing in a direction. Thanks Swan, good analogy. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 4:13:27 PM
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Perfect memory is something that was regarded as a convenient belief in NLP. It's also considered to be true that every access of the particular memory distorts it because you have accessed it under new circumstances the perception changes. The memory evolves, so the original memory has changed.
Have to wonder how perfect memory sits side by side with both scientific and I ritual understandings of time. Only now, no past. So maybe this means perfect imagination
Moment by moment, short term memory is necessary just to perceive entropy in action. Or should that be short term imagination?
God most likely is the only being with perfect memory so there is something in a fully enlightened person having that capacity.
Anyway I remember less and less about more and more and now remember everything about nothing. Works for me.
Can Goldfish become enlightened? |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 7:56:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Can Goldfish become enlightened?
Mu
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 9:21:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Can Goldfish become enlightened?
Only those few who aren't already.  |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2011 : 07:05:32 AM
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quote:
Can Goldfish become enlightened?
why not? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2011 : 07:38:53 AM
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It seemed like only yesterday when I went bubble, gravel, glide, splash, gulp.......
Excerpt from one Goldfishes memories of the good old days in the bowl. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2011 : 7:22:50 PM
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| You would have to be enlightened to be happy living in a fish bowl. Or extremely dumb. Both would kill the ego. Hmmmm. . . . |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 07:44:52 AM
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| If you are still holding on to the idea of being enlighten, then you are not enlightened. Can goldfish become enlighten? In yoga science, the soul (Atman) has moved up from rocks and such to the level of animal life and finally as a human. At that point, it is now able to take the next step. There are three basic levels that correspond to the physical, astral, and causal. From this physical level the next is the astral. You stay at that level until you are ready to go to the next (causal). Now when you are at the astral level, you can return to the physical level if you still need to workout unfulfilled desires (rebirth). So to answer your question, no goldfish can not be enlighten (unless it is really not a goldfish). This process is discribed differently in other schools of thought. I hope you have found this to be enlightening . |
Edited by - Mikananda on Dec 11 2011 07:51:34 AM |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:00:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda Remember, if you think you can't make it in this lifetime, the chances are pretty good that you won't.
Then there are some of us who aren't interested in "making it". We are just living life day by day, and that's enough.
Then why have this discussion in the first place?
"Making it" for this discussion is like to "grow." But to grow, means to grow towards something. Unless you are growing in circles (the great cycle of life).
No, as Swan says, plants just grow without trying to "make it".
"Making it" implies there is a goal. Plants just grow in the direction of the sun but don't "make it" to the sun. Enlightenment is like that - growing in a direction. Thanks Swan, good analogy.
Oh lovers of rhetoric. Always looking to twist a word, an idea to fit their personnal view point. Are you saying you don't want to be enlighten? Swan is correct, many people are like a head of cabbage. All I can say is don't get smart, just stay the way you are. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:09:31 AM
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No, I don't hold on to the idea of being enlightened. It is just an abstract word we have to use to talk about the subject. One has to assume it is a valid concept to talk about these things. Sounds like "yoga science" believes it is a valid concept.
I don't believe those kind of things because I haven't experienced them first hand, and they don't belong to normal everyday life.
Not that I haven't experienced the astral plane, etc., but what I have seen doesn't fit into a nice, ordered diagram like that so it makes me wonder if "yoga science" might be filtered through the minds of men before it is portrayed so logically. If you look at the way nature works, it does not conform to the logic of man at all. So I would expect other planes of existence to also be illogical. I'm sure there is a lot of truth in "yoga science", as evidenced by what is happening here at AYP. I'm just skeptical to swallow everything hook line and sinker.
If you believe reincarnation and rebirth follows such a logical procedure, you could hold back your own spiritual progress. Better to not pretend to know how it is all put together while we are trying to kill the ego.
PS I just saw this:
" Are you saying you don't want to be enlighten?"
I feel I am on the right path, and will probably progress further in that direction, but I don't think anything is lacking, no. I don't have thoughts about wanting to be enlightened, no. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Dec 11 2011 08:14:11 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:40:13 AM
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It's funny how we assume a path, which implies a direction and destination. Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings.
Still and know you are there.
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Edited by - karl on Dec 11 2011 08:42:38 AM |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:43:09 AM
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| What you seem to be missing is the fact that "you" are the problem. You see, everything I say I can back up with print. Everything that I have has been given. That being so, why should I boast as if it has not. "Progess", that sounds a little like growing, making it. To say that "I don't have thoughts about wanting to be enlightened, no." Means you were thinking about being enlighten or not enlighten. "and will probably progress further in that direction." That doesn't sound to assuring. I might get there, one day, oh well maybe not. Ah who cares anyway. Look I am not trying to knock your practice or change your believes. But when I see discussions about goldfish being enlighten and "oh I just to my own thing", I feel the need to speak out. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:44:11 AM
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quote:
Can goldfish become enlighten? In yoga science, the soul (Atman) has moved up from rocks and such to the level of animal life and finally as a human. At that point, it is now able to take the next step.
Ramana says that even animals can get enlighthment...no need for human birth... |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:51:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
It's funny how we assume a path, which implies a direction and destination. Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings.
Still and know you are there.
Karl I think you have gotten stuck in the quicksand of your own thinking. "Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings." Now thats something one can work with. Let us just meander around until we bump into what we are looking for. Now what you will say is "ah but who is looking, we are just little bubbles floating on the waves cosmic bliss." That is until you spill some tea on your new tie. |
Edited by - Mikananda on Dec 11 2011 09:25:07 AM |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:52:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
Can goldfish become enlighten? In yoga science, the soul (Atman) has moved up from rocks and such to the level of animal life and finally as a human. At that point, it is now able to take the next step.
Ramana says that even animals can get enlighthment...no need for human birth...
I quess you missed that stage. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 09:08:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
To say that "I don't have thoughts about wanting to be enlightened, no." Means you were thinking about being enlighten or not enlighten. "and will probably progress further in that direction." That doesn't sound to assuring. I might get there, one day, oh well maybe not. Ah who cares anyway. Look I am not trying to knock your practice or change your believes. But when I see discussions about goldfish being enlighten and "oh I just to my own thing", I feel the need to speak out.
Of course i think about a subject when we are talking about it. What I meant is my mind doesn't come up with thoughts of wanting to be enlightened.
True, it doesn't sound assuring to others that I will probably progress further in that direction. I didn't say "well, maybe not", but you are right about the "who cares" part. I just follow the path that is laid out in front of me, and am not interested in holding on tightly or defending my position. That's not something I care about, true. I don't follow a path because it is logical, or because other people say it is right. It's just my path and feels right. So in that sense it is "doing my own thing", as everyone must.
But there is some order; I do DM regularly. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 11:27:21 AM
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quote:
quess you missed that stage.
who said it is linear? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 11:30:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
quote:
Originally posted by karl
It's funny how we assume a path, which implies a direction and destination. Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings.
Still and know you are there.
Karl I think you have gotten stuck in the quicksand of your own thinking. "Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings." Now thats something one can work with. Let us just meander around until we bump into what we are looking for. Now what you will say is "ah but who is looking, we are just little bubbles floating on the waves cosmic bliss." That is until you spill some tea on your new tie.
It's all good.
Between here and there the path winds without direction. Take time to enjoy the scenery because the destination is journeys end. Once there, no path is needed, the explorer is not required. The destination becomes the start and the finish. It is a point in space and time, but beyond both.
At the destination, the explorer and the path cease to have a function. It follows that if we are seeking the destination within us, then at some level it is already attained, all we need do is recognise that we never had a path, a destination, or an explorer.
Does that make sense ? I mean we are going along enjoying the scenery for now, we can only do that if we believe there is a destination and therefore a path to it.
It doesn't really matter if we argue that any or all of them exist or don't exist. It's logical to assume that once a destination is reached then it has no function?
If I accept that I'm already at the destination, even though there is nothing to suggest in the slightest that this is the case, then everything falls into line. If I keep looking then I can never reach the destination because there will always be another one, it's self perpetuating, I create a horizon in order to travel beyond it. I created the path, because I walked it, there was not one path to follow other than the one I create to find the destination. I don't need to make a path if I don't create a destination.
Surely that is irrefutable? In fact I know it is, because it is simple and uncluttered, there are no dead ends or philosophical paradoxes. Even if I cannot know that I am, it is impossible for it to be any other way. I can search and search, but it must always remain so, I just fooled myself into thinking and created the beauty around me. Now I know, then it will remain forever beautiful
If I cling to that like a sailor to a mast the world orders itself, as soon as I think I need to go somewhere else it breaks down like an out of tune orchestra. Got to work by instinct because my senses fool me.
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Edited by - karl on Dec 11 2011 1:06:54 PM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 4:42:27 PM
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Hmrph, I think of enlightenment as ENLIGHTENINGMENT, it's a verb, it's the practice of keeping extra mindful. Of seeing god or consciousness, or buddha nature or whatever, in everything. It's just doing this so much that it just becomes second nature, and then you can just relax into "being", but much effort is needed to get there, but enlightenment is already in the moment. Everyones already doing this though; what they feel to be best. We're all enlightened, we just dont see it yet.
Every piece of meat is best :). |
Edited by - Divineis on Dec 11 2011 7:16:32 PM |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 08:03:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Swan
Hmmm...
Towards something of course makes sense. But do we need/should we have a set finishing line or timeline?
May be we can grow like a tree or a baby grows - without target or a deadline . In essence, the direction would be important and nothing else! actually, making it sounds little contrary to surrender.
my two pennies.
The phenomenal world is here for a purpose. Spiritual laws are manifested in the physical. There is not one set of rules for one and another set rules for the other. Hence, if one is to accomplish something he needs to establish goals. There might be one giant goal, however it is more useful if one establishes short term goals. Whenever someone has gotten their life in a mess, what therapists do is to help establish specific goals that will improve their situation. Whether you like it or not you are on a path from birth to death. In essence you are a baby growing. However, what separates us from a head of cabbage is that we have reason. The idea is not to reason that I should be like a head of cabbage. There is a saying, "if you don't know where you are going, the chances are good that you will end up there."
Namaste
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Edited by - Mikananda on Dec 13 2011 08:11:54 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 09:30:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
quote:
Originally posted by Swan
Hmmm...
Towards something of course makes sense. But do we need/should we have a set finishing line or timeline?
May be we can grow like a tree or a baby grows - without target or a deadline . In essence, the direction would be important and nothing else! actually, making it sounds little contrary to surrender.
my two pennies.
The phenomenal world is here for a purpose. Spiritual laws are manifested in the physical. There is not one set of rules for one and another set rules for the other. Hence, if one is to accomplish something he needs to establish goals. There might be one giant goal, however it is more useful if one establishes short term goals. Whenever someone has gotten their life in a mess, what therapists do is to help establish specific goals that will improve their situation. Whether you like it or not you are on a path from birth to death. In essence you are a baby growing. However, what separates us from a head of cabbage is that we have reason. The idea is not to reason that I should be like a head of cabbage. There is a saying, "if you don't know where you are going, the chances are good that you will end up there."
Namaste
I'm coming to the conclusion that here isn't a goal in the broadest sense.
How can we be going anywhere?
Can you actually remember a time when you were any different? Yes, your body grows, gets older, you have more experiences, but I know I have not altered.
I cannot remember my birth, from my earliest moments I have only ever been me.
When I wake up in the morning my world is the same as when I went to sleep. Yes there are events, but substantially, quantifiable it's the same. I can conclude that I arise with the I thought and that's fine, but makes no difference to my everyday perception. I cannot know what I cannot know and that's an end to it. I might be spooned out of a barrel of tar at cocks crow for all I can tell.
How then can it be possible that somehow I will be any different?
What does change is the world my personal world reacts to my own reaction to it.
This is the only thing I can track is that a modification to thinking, naturally modifies my view of the world, but more than that, the world appears to react to the change of thinking.
I can see no good reason why we can't actually turn water into wine except our thinking is largely unchecked. Even keeping a critical eye on it, there are so many stray, strands of harmful thought. Of course there would be little point in doing a miracle trick because it would be on far too smaller scale.
I keep going back to the 4 noble truths, the 8 limbs and the 10 Commandments. These are Gods words, ultimate rules. I don't think they are a simple template or mutually exclusive. More like a Matrix that gradually changes thinking and that changes our personal world. Truly, heaven on Earth.
Our uniqueness and identity stay exactly the same,mits just our relationship to our personal world alters as we alter our thinking.
Somehow I have the idea that we get one crack at this. If we don't a master it, then we submerge back into the infinite without any specific identity. No pain, no grief, no happiness or sadness. Just a pot of potential which takes individual form to begin again, just like a freshly opened flower in spring.
Just like the AYP practices suggest really. Don't get bound up in it all, just row the boat the best you can and it either will or it won't. Sort of like the land draws closer by itself while the sea vanishes and it all takes place in the mind.
AYP has finally driven me crazy and made me lose all direction. Damned funny though
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 1:08:48 PM
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Hi karl
Firstly, you're not crazy - you just seem a bit stuck in some "non-relational self-inquiry" (IMHO ).
The lower mind appears to be going around in circles trying to make sense of something which it cannot make any sense of because it (the lower mind) is finite and what it's trying to nail down is not.
I'd suggest that you may find it helpful to back off this stuff a bit and ground yourself in some "normal" day-to-day activities for a while.
You may also find Rupert Spira quite helpful if you can attend one of his satsangs (he holds them in Oxford and in London). It's my personal experience that having face-to-face interaction helps considerably with the self-inquiry aspect of the Path. Even conventional science is clear that that we lose about 80% of the communication in a phonecall. In writing, it has to be much more!
You'll also find that some of the people who attend these satsangs are as clear about things as Rupert (and Francis Lucille) and I've also personally found this to be quite helpful.
As a recent arrival on the AYP scene, I think that the next step in its evolution is to start building some face-to-face interactions into the model, because over the last few decades of exploring this "stuff", I've found face-to-face interactions so very useful . The Path can sometimes be a bit lonely, even when you can interact with others in writing (which isn't really my forte anyway! )
Incidentally, I'm not pushing Rupert as a guru as, in my experience, he simply interacts with others as a friend. I brelieve that this also holds true for Francis Lucille from what I know of him from his videos and what I've heard about him from people who know him well.
Hope this helps.
With Love
gatito |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 2:33:05 PM
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Hi thanks for that.
I'm happy with the craziness, it's fine. I have loads of people to interact with and plenty of external activities. Thanks for the concern though, nice to have support. I think it's the start of a new phase for me, always lots of excess enthusiasm and energy when that happens. Always thinking this is IT and knowing it never will be is like discovering treasure, but no THE treasure.
Would be good to have a get together, there was a retreat organised for this year but it fell through. There are lots of people I have got to know over the last couple of years and it would be good to meet them.
Not really sure what a Satsang is or how it works. It would be fun to find out. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 3:27:45 PM
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Hi karl
I wasn't suggesting that you didn't have any friends or external activities . Even with these, I've sometimes got myself locked into "non-relational self-inquiry" and I've never found it particularly useful - the mind just tends to go around in circles until the until it gives up (although sometimes, for some people, the mind doesn't appear to be prepared to give up and unstick itself and that can turn into a serious problem!).
When you're happy and at peace, that is IT. There's no beginning or end to IT because IT's what you are and IT's timeless. IT's not the experienced (because everything that's experienced is "scenery" and change-ful). What you are is change-less.
Satsang is a group of people getting together and sharing their experiences of the Truth to the best of their abilities. These boards are satsang. That's my definition anyway . Sometimes, it's thought of as someone who's got more of a handle on Truth answering questions from those who have less of a handle on IT. But, as there's only one Consciousness (or, at least, I've never found any experiential evidence that there's more than one) there's a bit of a paradox there . Sometimes the Q&A format appears to work well but sometimes the guru starts to think that they're "THE GURU" and in these cases it seems to create a bit of a problem for all concerned . Rupert (and Francis Lucille) seem to have managed to sidestep this rather nasty pitfall and and are therefore (IMHO) pretty good at helping others with self-inquiry.
If you can get to see Rupert or go on one of his retreats, you'd probably enjoy it. I do, and I've also met a lot of very nice people as well . It's not a cheap option though, either in terms of time or money.
My intention is to put together some AYP retreats on a more affordable basis in France (where I have quite a large house that we could use - although it's in need of a lot of DIY athe moment). I'm also trying to get some sort of meeting/meditation group going in London at the moment, where we can get together and share AYP from our very varied individual perspectives. I really like the horizontal AYP model and I'd also really like to meet some other people who are following this Path in person, so hopefully, we'll all meet sooner rather than later. |
Edited by - gatito on Dec 13 2011 6:45:02 PM |
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Am I really enlightened?
