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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 11:05:55 AM
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I have realized one thing. Everybody tells you "be a child ". How many of us here are ready to accept that.. Not in the sense of becoming the child.. but in the sense of accepting another grown up person as a child. With being a child comes a way off becoming naive.. innocent.. truthful. How many people here are ready to accept another grown up adult as an innocent child? How many of you would listen to the truth from a child's mouth and smile.. but the same truth from an adults mouth and not judge it.. believe in your heart that it came out somehow twisted.. it was malicious.. We cannot accept that a grown up person could actually be speaking their mind like a child.
I have been told time and time again.. don't be so naive.. don't pretend to be so innocent.. it never did made any sense to me.. I was never putting on an act.. so I did not know what they were talking about.. till somebody explained to me how people think. I still don't understand complicated adult stuff.. I don't understand how one human could smile and talk so kindly to you and turn around and speak ill of you, I don't understand politics.. work, family, friend, government politics don't make any sense to me.. hurts my brains. I have a very bad habit of speaking my mind.. if there is something in me, I have to get it out. There are a few who appreciate me for that(very few).. esp. since they know, if it comes from me it is nothing but the truth.. but I know I do hurt people by my words or actions.. no matter how unintentional they are. These days with AYP, I have found myself telling the truth even more often.. That is another reason, I like to stay away from people.. not talk too much..
So now what? I don't think what I am doing is right.. I don't ever want to hurt anybody.. If I have hurt anybody here.. please do forgive me. Tell me how to be a child and yet not be one? |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 1:10:43 PM
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Shanti, interesting post.
Some advanced souls have been reviled by others because of their different-ness. According to historian Gary Wills, Jesus was hated and despised, even by most of his own family. Wills said the brothers of Jesus even tried to throw him off a cliff because he was such a difficult and different person.
I wonder how many among the AYP group feel ‘outside’ of the mainstream, different and as if they just don’t ‘fit’? Is part of this because we may be more inward looking or just because we discuss and ponder this aspect of our existence more than others?
I believe that part of our journey though, part of our spiritual growth, is to learn to live among other people peacefully, lovingly, and provide service where we can. Yogani has said (paraphrasing here) we can find peace living alone, but if that peace disappears once we venture into the outside world among others, then what have we learned and gained really?
Some advanced souls see the world simply, live simply, speak simply and honestly. Truth pervades all aspects of their being. They live their spirituality and it is in the essence of who they are. Perhaps this is your path Shanti. Experiential.
Others study and research and delve deep into knowledge, religion, scripture, mystery schools, etc. in their effort to grow spiritually. Advancement through knowledge. This is not my path.
It is helpful to understand how other adults think and what motivates them. In family, community, business or political context. If you can do this, especially when they do selfish, hurtful or ignorant things, you can separate your feelings from their actions and think…they are this and not that yet. They are on a different place on the path. And then one can forgive. Or one can set something aside. Or one can offer soft, constructive comments. We can see. We can evaluate. But we don’t always have to comment. Or we can wait to comment until we can do so in a detached way. Until then we can just be. And we can remember that everyone else is on their own path and will learn in their own way. 
Shanti, the fact that you are concerned about this shows what a feeling and compassionate woman you actually are...
In light and in love,
Kathy |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 1:54:26 PM
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One word:
Play. |
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spinal_tap
Indonesia
40 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2009 : 3:35:07 PM
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Maybe to 'be a child' is to accept things like a child? A child wouldn't understand if they are told to stop being naive or to not pretend being innocent. After all, it isn't the child's mistake if they couldn't understand why they are being told to stop acting like a child.
But then again, it is very difficult not to concern our self when our choice of mindset is being attacked and we unfortunately understand what is going on.
I am the same as you and I have felt many heartaches as a result of that, often I find myself wanting to learn to 'be not naive and not innocent' but I always end up preferring the satisfaction of keeping my way of thinking than to be free from the constant heartaches.
Good luck Shanti! |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2009 : 5:08:29 PM
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quote:
I have a very bad habit of speaking my mind.. if there is something in me, I have to get it out. There are a few who appreciate me for that(very few).. esp. since they know, if it comes from me it is nothing but the truth.. but I know I do hurt people by my words or actions.. no matter how unintentional they are. These days with AYP, I have found myself telling the truth even more often..
Hi Shanti
I appreciate your very honest post
When you say "speaking the truth" what do you mean?
What is truth but an everending unfolding of life through us with no room for thoughts because there is no room for thoughts in this unfolding.
When thoughts come then out of this state and enter our consciousness they are always filtered though our conditioning - no matter how far along we are. This is why discernment is so highly regarded in its art form in spiritual practice.
I know a young man who has down syndrome and he lights up the room with his innocence and wit and charm. He is so non-judgemental and radiates so much love he is simply a joy to have around.
Telling someone the "truth" simply would not occur to him, he simply loves, plays and brings joy.
So when you say you tell the truth - what exactly does this mean?
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2009 : 5:52:26 PM
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 He he... Really sorry all, but I have no idea why I posted this one.. it was in 2006 and whatever it was had to have been a Huge Deal at that time.. but honestly I don't remember any more.. hard for me to remember what upset me or made me happy a few min back.. happens when you live moment by moment.
And it may be because like Spinal Tap said.. to be like a child you have to think like a child, without an ego.. and then it does not matter what the other person thinks or says.. because they are just words that the ego does not attach to.. when there is no ego, the words don't stick.... there is no "me" to protect.. so there is no "me" to get hurt. The words that flow are what flow at that moment.. it does not matter what they are, because they are not a whole lot of words that were planned to be delivered, they are words that flow at that moment.. be it what the ego labels as truth or not.
Sorry I cannot even remember what I was trying to say here in my first post, but if the words made me and the other person so upset.. it was just a couple of egos trying to prove what they were saying was right.. I am innocent.. ha (only laughing at myself) .. who can say that but the ego.. who can attach a label of innocent.. only the ego.. when you are innocent.. you don't know you it.. only then can you really be innocent... really be a child.. because a child, like Spinal Tap said, does not know that s/he is a child or that s/he is innocent.. a child does not identify with the words child, innocent, truth.. a child just is. |
Edited by - Shanti on Mar 14 2009 6:01:40 PM |
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spinal_tap
Indonesia
40 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2009 : 8:42:23 PM
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I am sorry if I bring up something in your past Shanti. I just saw your old post and something came to mind, so I thought I'd share it. Sometimes it is easier to identify and solve our own problem if we get the chance to see the same problem in someone else and tries to help her/him. Maybe something to do with the pressure involved. 
I am lucky I came upon your old post. and thanks for elaborating the idea. I am not very good at writing elaborately.
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Sparkle, for me the 'truth' would be the raw emotion put to words and thrown to whoever it is that created that raw emotion in me. This will provide relief of not holding a grudge. However, Most if not all the time this will fire back and ended up expanding the bad emotions instead.
I guess some would say the 'truth' is the inability to control oneself, although this is very exaggerating.
Still, I think it is just a self-defense mechanism that is available to the more sensitive among us and those that chose to live by it regardless of what society thinks of it. This is however isn't a very good way to live unless you learn to release the heartaches or find a way to not be bothered by the heartaches.
Please correct me if I am wrong, I am just trying my best to describe the condition but I can't help but feeling like I am describing very destructive people since they can't keep bad emotions and always seek ways to release them. I think I am confusing myself.. |
Edited by - spinal_tap on Mar 14 2009 9:19:34 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2009 : 05:46:44 AM
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Never noticed the date Shanti, what a hoot
I visited a church recently with a friend and there happened to be a mass on at the time.
The priest gave a little talk on the bible passage of the day.
It was about when God spoke to X and told him to sacrifice his son. Well X was having a hard time over this and pondered it for a good while. After a while and some happenings God told him again that it was ok not to do the sacrifice.
The priest explained that at that time the Caneinites used to practice human sacrifice, it was part of their culture.
To me this was a typical example of messages from God or Inner Silence or whatever you name it - and the message being filtered through the conditioning of the time. The conditioning being to sacrifice humans.
It is probably the reason for much of the religious wars down through the ages. The messages from inner silence translated through conditioning and taken as "truth".
I don't think these lessons can ever be left aside as an aspect of our awareness.
Spinal Tap
I think what I was getting at was more in line with what Shanti described., but with the proviso of discernment.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2009 : 09:45:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by spinal_tap
I am sorry if I bring up something in your past Shanti.
Hi Spinal Tap, please don't be sorry.. Thank you for bringing up this old post.. shows me how much my perspectives have changed in 3 years.
quote:
Spinal Tap said:
Still, I think it is just a self-defense mechanism that is available to the more sensitive among us and those that chose to live by it regardless of what society thinks of it. This is however isn't a very good way to live unless you learn to release the heartaches or find a way to not be bothered by the heartaches.
Yes, you have it, it is a self defense mechanism, the ego defending itself to protect itself... protect the "me" and "mine". Any time there is a reaction in us, it's because our ego is threatened, and it is "THE" time for self inquiry. If ever we hear something that gets us angry or sad or have the urge to lash out it is an immediate red-flag to look into it. If there is anyone whose words seem harsh to us, we need to look into ourselves to see why it brought up such a huge reaction. The other person's words are just words, just a bunch of sounds that trigger such violence within us that we find it important to lash out or retreat into our "poor me" shells.
Something I got from a part of "A Course In Miracles", I had not realized the "ego" stayed in place because it thought it was special.. and if anything did not go as the "ego" decided it should, our world comes crumbling down, because the "ego" thinks it's special.. and if it does not get what it wants.. it thinks it's a "victim". This concept really hit home. I had never seen the ego in this light.. I thought my ego always thought it was less than.. but really.. it thinks it's less than because it thinks it's special and should not be treated the way it has been treated.
It's something that came to me from this chapter http://acim.home.att.net/text-15-05.html
So if we have a feeling that we are better than the world and no one else can tell us what we should or should not do.. that is because the ego thinks it's "special" and should only be treated the way it thinks it should be treated.. with respect.
If we are not the kind that demands respect, but the kind that think are "victims".. once again, the ego feels like it's a victim because it thinks it's special and the world is not treating it like it should.. with the respect it deserves.
Do you see a pattern? The only way to get out of this is to transcend the ego. How? Mediation, spinal breathing, samyama, self inquiry. This post that you have revived helps show that AYP works... in three years I have gone from that first post to the post I posted above. If you want to let go the ego baggage, just continue with your practices, meditation, spinal breathing, samyama, self inquiry. It's just a matter of opening , lifting the dense fog of ego that surrounds our true self, to become free from the conditioning and imprisonment of the mind. I am not saying I am fee of the mind traps all together. But the suffering is so much less than what it was 3 years back.
I hope my reply has helped you a bit Spinal Tap. It is a process, does not happen over night, it's a process of purifying, letting go and opening. Wish you the best.
PS: I am really sorry if I sounded like I was trying to dismiss your post.. I was not.. it just took me by surprise and it was a pleasant surprise to see the shift in me.. and I got caught up in that. Sorry!! |
Edited by - Shanti on Mar 15 2009 10:35:45 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2009 : 11:16:17 AM
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I too am suffering a lot less in the last few years. But also i have matured and learned to watch what I say a lot more. I had always been "innocent" even though I am approaching 60 years old. I had not learned subtle nuances of communication, and so i was often not included in the "core" of groups of friends until recently. People pick up on subtle differences in communication, and don't understand others who don't, and shun them.
I had always noticed this, but didn't understand why. I always thought honesty is the most important thing in communication, and so I would say whatever was on my mind as long as it was the truth.
But upon maturing recently, I now understand that communication is more complex than that. You have to think about what effect your words will have on others before you say them. The effect words have on you is not the same as for other people. And WHEN you say something is also important.
For instance, let's say you think a friend is perfect except for some very tiny flaw. You admire them because that flaw is so tiny it is meaningless. And one day you say to them that their only flaw is that tiny thing. That kind of statement is likely to be taken very badly and hurt that person. They don't have the perspective you do.
Instead if you wait for them to bring up the subject, and then say you didn't say anything because the flaw is so unimportant and tiny. Or better yet pretend you didn't even notice it.
You would be lying to them somewhat, but they will like you more. And you would be doing it not to make them like you, as much as to make them feel better about themselves.
And the other thing i learned is to hardly ever say something bad about myself. In other words treat myself the same as i am treating my friends. This is not egotistical. It is doing a favor for my friends. They will be more comfortable hanging around someone who is not hurt easily, bounces back quickly, and has the general attitude that everything is OK, and any problem can be easily handled.
Then the last piece of the puzzle is occasionally they will say something hurtful to me, and it's OK to lash out back at them without being hurtful to them. But then immediately forget what they said, forgiving them for the mistake. You will almost always find out it was because they were in a bad mood, and they don't usually feel that way. Don't take their words literally. "I hate you forever!" can be just a feeling that lasts an hour.
This way of communicating may seem like "putting up barriers" or "not being honest", but I have learned that it is not at all.
The reason is, that the image we project to the public is created by us to begin with. There is no such thing as 'just the plain truth' without a projected image. We delude ourselves into thinking that, and then we project an image that is not in our best interest. Sometimes our ego can be hidden and devious, and it can gain something from making people reject us. It may be just a comfort zone created by years of rejection.
But nonetheless, it is created and artificial.
So speaking with ahimsa both for others AND yourself creates better friendships than an innocent stance. Let's leave that to the kids.
It may seem unnatural to change communication habits, but after the change is made, you will see the ahimsa is MORE natural and quite easy to live with. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 15 2009 11:28:12 AM |
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spinal_tap
Indonesia
40 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2009 : 1:27:56 PM
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| Etherfish, after reading your post I am actually eager to go out there and start finding friends to talk to just so I can feel good about it. Thanks! |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2009 : 7:50:18 PM
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Another thing that I have had a hard time with is giving people credit for something you don't really need, but they made an effort to get it for you.
This is not ahimsa, but along the same lines. Let's say you were trying to find a rare book, and then found it. But your friend didn't know you had found it, and looked around and got it for you too. My past reaction would be to tell them thanks anyway, but I don't need it anymore.
But why not say thanks so much I was really looking for that book? And don't mention that you don't need it anymore. It gives them the satisfaction they wanted, and doesn't cost you anything for the little deception.
Of course, there are all kinds of exceptions when you have friends who are obsessed or co-dependent, but you will know if that happens.
My friend taught me this when i offered her something and she was so excited that I had thought of her, but told me she didn't need what I had offered. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2009 : 01:59:44 AM
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I wanted to contribute with some wisdom from Osho: "The innocence that comes from a deep experience of life is childlike but not childish. The innocence of children are beautiful, but ignorant. It will be replaced by mistrust and doubt as the child grows and learns that the world can be a dangerous and threatening place. But the innocence of a life lived fully has a quality of wisdom and acceptance of the ever-changing wonder of life." /Osho Zen Tarot
and when writing I recalled I had written it in another topic I once started on childlike innocence... http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=3961#3961
(I'm continuing the trend of waking up old posts.)
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Edited by - emc on Mar 16 2009 03:24:55 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 06:27:02 AM
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I can relate to a lot of this. About being somewhat socially inept. If you don't keep up with the times and learn the "lingo" people do tend to treat you differently and i believe there is something actually correct about that. For example, i only recently got my first mobile phone and before that when other people found out that i didn't have a mobile they thought i was living in the ice age! It doesn't make a good impression in other words. And i think people are right to treat it suspiciously.
About behaving like a child, i think that that can be seen somewhat as being naive and people would be suspicious of that kind of behaviour. Children tend to be very open to things and they have a natural genuine interest in learning things. For an adult to behave in the same way would at first glance perhaps appear to be odd. However, what i am learning is that the child's humility is actually a tremendously helpful and good quality to have, so long as you don't turn into a perpetual interrogating machine. The reason being that it irks me big time when people claim to know things they can't possibly really know. Who knows why this universe was created in the first place? Nobody knows that. This level of causation is beyond any reason and understanding the human mind can come up with. Nobody knows why things happen the way they do, nobody knows why a child is born and dies shortly thereafter. Can karma really adequately explain that? The answer is "no". And if i come across people that do claim to know those kind of answers, i know they are making it up. Undoubtedly everybody has experiences, even spiritual experiences, so there is a limited degree of knowledge involved but to extrapolate from the pure experiences to knowledge of causation of said experiences IS KNOWING TOO MUCH. Isn't it much better and more honest to say, "i don't know anything about the causes, i just know the experience" and leave it there in all honest humility? Even Jesus said something to the effect that what he knows is less than what God knows. And as many people here are probably aware he also said that being childlike is one of the keys to enter the kingdom of God. What do i know? I know that i don't know those kind of answers and i am pretty sure nobody else does either, judging from the things they say. Get that ego out of the way, that ego that presumes authority where no such authority can exist because the mystery of life remains a mystery to every person. Let it be a mystery, rest content in the fact you don't know but are here to experience. Don't presume that other people know things you don't know about causation and stop asking questions about that deep imponderable mystery. Let it be. |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 08:40:15 AM
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To your point gumpi, here are a couple of quotes from Anthony de Mello:
"As soon as you look at the world through an ideology you are finished. No reality fits an ideology. Life is beyond that. That is why people are always searching for a meaning to life… Meaning is only found when you go beyond meaning. Life only makes sense when you perceive it as mystery and it makes no sense to the conceptualizing mind."
"The disciples were absorbed in a discussion of Lao-tzu’s dictum: Those who know do not say;Those who say do not know.
When the master entered, they asked him what the words meant.
Said the master, "Which of you knows the fragrance of a rose?"
All of them indicated that they knew.
Then he said, "put it into words."
All of them were silent"
I appreciate your insights gumpi!!!
Peace & Namaste
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 10:32:44 AM
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Like a child.......yes I get that. My wife and I discussed this while walking the river bank a few days ago, funny I should notice it here.
You know when you were a child you lived simply in the now. You accepted those things that came around the corner at face value. Nettles did not need to be avoided until you understood they could cause pain. The future was hardly ever referred to, it was mythical and the past was never your past, always someone elses 'what did you do in the war Grandad'.
As you get older you become more preoccupied with the past and future and the present is something you simply have to live through to get there, or leave something behind. It's strange that this happens and does make me question how it happened?
I like to think that it is our future that drives our actions. Somewhere we have already done something that has lead to the 'now' we experience. On an ultimate level, we had to died sometime in the future to enable us to be born in the first place. This leaves the freedom to ignore the future because it already has happened, so we can simply live in the twists and turns provided by that journey.
I dont think of this as fate, there are choices, but it removes the ultimate reliance on the future as being something to live towards.
I have to be careful to keep this to myself when working with clients as, unless you understand that viewpoint it can very confusing and would lead to clients giving up because their destiny was chosen
Does that make any sense ?? |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 12:10:29 PM
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Thanks Parallax, they are really good quotes and say it much better than i did.
I didn't realise i typed such a big paragraph. That makes for irritating reading. |
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spinal_tap
Indonesia
40 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 2:41:48 PM
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| Shanti, I am sorry if it seems like I ignored your suggestion. I always have a big ego and the solution you offered was something I find myself afraid to. Although ultimately it is something I will have to do to take the real steps into solving this problem. |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 5:55:49 PM
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Hey gumpi,
I enjoyed your post thoroughly...I thought you made your point very well!! No irritation at all!!! 
You are one step ahead of me...I can't even begin to articulate these types of concepts...I'm relegated to using other people's quotes I find on the internet 
Peace brother |
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Be A Child.
