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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 01:02:02 AM
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I wrote a long time ago that days when I've been deeply yearning to meditate, the meditation is often a hell...I can't let go. Lots of people agreed. The best-seeming meditation sessions (though, as Yogani notes, you can't judge effectiveness via experiences) are the ones where you started the session grudgingly, feeling "not so into it."
I found the solution. Two things:
1. take some time to key down before starting the meditation. Meditation, unlike, say, platform diving, doesn't benefit from being approached "psyched up". Absorb some of the inertia before you begin
2. if you find yourself getting pushy in meditation, desperately craving this experience or that, trying to propel yourself to "go deeper", trying to find the little tricks and cues that unlock the usual realms you usually inhabit....guess what the trick is? Drop the thinking, the yearning, the stress, the frustration. Limit your expectations and vista. Return to simply sitting there, saying "I am" to yourself over and over again. Really super pedestrian and unambitious. No peace, no surrender, no ecstacy. Just sit there and repeat the mantra, even really coarsely. Sounds like a "duh", but it works every time, promise. Next time you feel like you have to do 90 different things to get back to whatever blissful space you found last time, and the striving creates all sorts of distractions and frustrations, try it. Simplify (and keep ON simplifying). |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 07:44:45 AM
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quote:
guess what the trick is? Drop the thinking, the yearning, the stress, the frustration. Limit your expectations and vista. Return to simply sitting there, saying "I am" to yourself over and over again.
It works... I have been doing this for a few months now.. it really works.. "just drop everything.. go in without any expectations.. nothing but the mantra". Two other things that helped...
1-I was always scared I was falling asleep.. Lesson#158 helped
http://www.aypsite.org/158.html
quote:
It won't be manifesting like that forever. It is a special form of sleep associated with deep inner silence and purification during meditation. Once your nervous system has released those deep-rooted obstructions in there, you will experience much more clarity during practices. Your clarity in activity is evidence that good things are happening. It is a great way to get rid of lifetimes of accumulated karma. While you are "sleeping" the infinite is unfolding inside you
2-I was tired of my mind working all the time.. really silly and unnecessary thoughts.. Lesson 159 helped. When I stopped trying to stop the thoughts.. the meditation got better..
http://www.aypsite.org/159.html
quote:
Thoughts are a normal part of the process. It may seem
very mundane sometimes in meditation. I can assure you that you are
deep in meditation. If you were not, you would not have irritability
and headaches from overdoing it.
Thanks for bringing this up again Jim. This time your post makes a lot of sense to me. When you say just drop it.. I know what you are saying now . I agree.. meditation is just a part of our every day routine.. like waking up, eating, driving, going to bed... and yes brushing our teeth.. 
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Edited by - Shanti on Apr 12 2006 08:24:52 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 09:58:58 AM
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Sometimes I find my approach to the meditation (and the mantra) to be overly intense or agressive. Everything Jim says there is good. I'd like to add a tip of my own.
I have found another approach which is very helpful for me. It is something I have used only occasionally, because I have needed it only occasionally.
It may be slightly controversial.
It is to begin saying the mantra out loud, then bring it quieter and quieter, until only my lips are moving while I am saying it (no voice), then letting the lips get more and more lazy until they refuse to move. When they have completely refused to move, you are in regular meditation!
It is an alternative way to start meditation, but the practice is identical once it has started. The process of starting this way may take about a minute.
Actually, in practice, I often dive straight for the 'lipping' phase (omitting the vocal part).
It really does work quite well for me, and someone else on the older forum found it very useful too. This practice, incidentally, can help with other kinds of mantra-obsessive issues, like the issue of fussing about co-ordination of the mantra with heartbeat or breath.
Let me know if you find it helpful.
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 12 2006 10:06:02 AM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 10:06:33 AM
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Jim, it's good that you brought up this subject even though it has been discussed before. I will just confirm how true it is that expectations are a limiting factor in meditation. I have had to work on this as well, or rather drop it, and still am. If I have had a "nice" meditation with a new level of stillness, and then expect or try to get into that again, then if it doesn't happen there can be a frustration, which of course doesn't help the meditation. But if I don't expect anything, then the mantra will often find another or unexpected way of creating stillness.
I sometimes take a few moments before the meditation to relax and make the resolve "not expect anything, and not to care about anything that may happen" which also takes into account possible negative thoughts. Then during the meditation itself, only be with the mantra. Of course thoughts etc. will come up and the mantra will not be there all the time, but it doesn't matter. And then the periods of stillness will come up anyway. If there is a new level it's easy to get attracted to it and reflect on it, but that will be an impediment, better to go back to the mantra.
It seems that the "graces" we may experience must be given to us while just being with the mantra, we can't attain them by our own power. Just "dropping everything", as Jim says, could be seen as analogous to being completely innocent, and it has been said in Christian terms that only the innocent will find God. |
Edited by - weaver on Apr 12 2006 8:05:52 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 10:40:28 AM
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David, it's odd that you chose a thread discussing the need for simplicity and doing less to inject a suggestion to complicate and do more.
I think we all gradually collect little tricks we do to try to go deeper. My point is that these tricks can build up, to the point where we start looking like Ed Norton gearing up to throw the bowling ball.
When all of you who take David's advice, and add it to the tricks and shticks you've come up with on your own (thinking this, breathing that, tilting your head to the side, batting your eyebrow once, murmuring "I wanna go back to Kansas" and generally clamoring to reestablish the groovy experience you had last time) and you realize you are turning this into yet another mental exercise (and foregoing the simplicity of AYP practice for the complication of grasping at experiences), you'll drop all the nonsense and simplify by going back to square one. When you do, you'll find that by NOT doing, things go a lot better than when we try to push and control.
AYP is SIMPLE. Yogani's words and writing style and approach are SIMPLE. This is not because he's trying to create a vanilla framework into which we can fill in all sorts of little details and squiggles. It's because the simplicity is the whole point. This isn't like fly fishing or motocross, where a storeload of hard-won knowledge and know-how must be acquired in order to attain that special winning edge. Yoga is subtractive. Do less. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 11:17:40 AM
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quote:
I take a few moments before the meditation to relax and make the resolve "not expect anything, and not to care about anything that may happen" which also takes into account possible negative thoughts.
Actually Weaver, you don't have to do any of this.. just sit.. start the mantra.. and let it take over.. If you had told me this a month back I would not have known what you are talking about.. but that is exactly it.. just pick i am and let it do its thing.. it really does take over.. its like eating.. you put the food in your moth.. but then you don't have to tell you mouth to chew it.. or swallow it.. or is it small enough to go through without choking.. or did enough saliva get mixed with the food.. you just eat. Yogani had given me a good example in one of his emails.. he said when we first discover our feet as a baby.. we are fascinated by it.. then its just there.. after that we don't think about our feet every time we walk.. similarly.. we know the mantra is there.. we don't have to think about it.. its just there along with everything else.. actually we don't even have to drop anything.. just say the mantra.. it will do its own thing.. like the feet do theirs... If during the process sleep takes over, thoughts take over, no mantra takes over.. its fine.. as long as we come back to the mantra we are doing it right.. Over time.. the thoughts and sleep and drifts do decrease.. but this happens only when we stop trying...
I think you are doing the right thing here... quote:
Then during the meditation itself, only be with the mantra. Of course thoughts etc. will come up and the mantra will not be there all the time, but it doesn't matter. And then the periods of stillness will come up anyway. If there is a new level it's easy to get attracted to it and reflect on it, but that will be an impediment, better to go back to the mantra.
David if you add another technique to your meditation.. it is just one more thing that you have to get over.. It may not be a problem for you to get over something.. but for me to un-learn something takes longer than learning it.. Like right now during Shamyama.. I have this thing of counting my breath.. just cannot seem to shake it off.. |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 12 2006 12:02:49 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 1:07:54 PM
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Jim said:
When all of you who take David's advice, and add it to the tricks and shticks you've come up with on your own (thinking this, breathing that, tilting your head to the side, batting your eyebrow once, murmuring "I wanna go back to Kansas"
You seem to have chosen me to represent me as 'the misguided guy with the complications'. You managed to get Straw Man argument, Ad Hominem argument and Argument by Insinuation into two lines. Good going! It's written as if there is a 'those who follow David's' advice', who need to be ridiculed. It's written as if those who make all these ensuing mistakes you list are those who follow David's advice. Great Insinuation, great Ad Hominem, great Straw man. I am honestly impressed. You could write for a politician.
It is not fair to me, your fellow forumite, though. Ultimately it's an agressive and cheap shot. If you disagree, isn't it better for everyone if you just stick to the issues?
I was never the representative of complication in general. Never was, never will be.
Jim said:
David, it's odd that you chose a thread discussing the need for simplicity and doing less to inject a suggestion to complicate and do more.
Well, maybe it wasn't the best thread for it, but nothing is perfect on the forum. At the same time, I put it here because I found it relevant.
Jim said:
AYP is SIMPLE. Yogani's words and writing style and approach are SIMPLE. This is not because he's trying to create a vanilla framework into which we can fill in all sorts of little details and squiggles. It's because the simplicity is the whole point. This isn't like fly fishing or motocross, where a storeload of hard-won knowledge and know-how must be acquired in order to attain that special winning edge. Yoga is subtractive. Do less.
Words like 'complicate and do more' are not an objective negative for any yoga technique or practice. The real issue is whether a particular addition is helpful or not for a particular person. Yogani presents many base practices with various modifications, and, certainly, many modifications are far more 'complex', if you will, than the tip I suggested (look at all the elements of Yoni Mudra Kumbhak).
There is nothing objective about finding my tip to be a 'complication' that opposes the 'simplicity' of AYP, and finding Yogani's full Yoni Mudra Kumbhak not to be. In fact, as an instruction, mine is far, far, easier to absorb than Yoni Mudra Kumbhak.
I disagree that 'simplicity is the whole point'. Ultimately, taking 'simplicity' to its extremes leads to no instructions at all. There are meditation techniques which have simpler instructions than AYP's mantra yoga, but AYP's mantra yoga is here as it is because Yogani believes that this technique, 'more complex' to some, is superior on the average.
I think 'complication' is only a word used to smuggle in the presumption that something is unhelpful. Jim, you have felt very free to present yoga tips and tricks of your own on the forum, havent you? I'm assuming that the reason that you did not classify those as complications, was simply because you find them helpful.
Likewise, I found my tip to be helpful, and don't classify it as a complication.
If you find my technique to be helpful, you won't classify it as a complication any more. Those who are open to the helpfulness of my tip should give it a try....
There are a number of strong Yogis here, and many of them have an experimental spirit, like Yogani certainly has. Some of them have decades of experience in Mantra Yoga, and have gone through a lot and be knowin' a thang or two. Yogani is not pretending that AYP, or Yoga in general, is final. We add our knowledge and experience in here according to our ability in this Open-Source environment. It does not stop with Yogani, yes?
The guru is in you.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 12 2006 1:17:52 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 2:23:38 PM
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Hi David,
Your suggestion sounds really cool to me. Especially you were wise in mentioning to do such a thing only in the start of meditation because it gels well with AYP meditation principle (when lost, come back to most subtle level where u left off). I think I will give it a try sometime.
Shanti,
I agree with your suggestion to weaver. No mental make ups or auto suggestions prior to starting meditation are necessary. Sometimes when we start meditation we immedeatly get lost into thoughts and realize only after lot of time that we have to repeat mantra. Even that is OK. Coming to dropping stuff, I feel such a thing happens automatically with experience and time. No need to specifically remember or try to drop stuff. But there are a few “misconceptions” I had and it really helped my meditation when they were cleared from the AYP lessons and deep meditation book.
1. Mantra and thoughts can co-exist. Thinking that only one can stay at a time adds additional worry that we need to either push thoughts away or concentrate more on mantra. But realizing that mantra and thoughts can co-exist (and it is fine as long we are actively repeating the mantra,) made me worry a lot less.
2. When u find urself in thoughts, instead of driving away the thoughts, get urself back to repeating mantra.
3. What happens when a thought comes: Between the time we lose the mantra and get into thoughts a very important thing happens. We touch our pure bliss consciousness once. This is how u make progress in meditation. So a thought is not a bad sign, infact it indicates something good has just happened.
These three suggestions and practice over time helped me improve my meditation.
-Near
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Edited by - nearoanoke on Apr 12 2006 2:25:55 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 2:44:46 PM
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quote:
David wrote: It does not stop with Yogani, yes?
Hi All:
Hopefully it doesn't stop with me. If it does, we are all in trouble. I didn't have a clue about Shanti's perspiration, other than the possibility of purification continuing outside practices (maybe). It took another woman to expand the perspective on that one (menopause -- thank you, Meg). See, Shanti, I don't know everything. Seems I can only prove the worth of AYP as a self-sustaining and growing knowledge-base by proving myself to be ordinary. I like it that way. The smaller they are, the softer they fall, you know. Therefore, perfectly flat is good.
I do have a few practical thoughts on the latest interchange above.
I think we are talking about "ritual," at least in part -- personal ritual in particular. What does it take for any given person to sit down and relax and be set up to practice deep meditation? Well, who knows? It is personal to a large degree. For whatever reason, maybe someone can't sit down and relax until they have walked around the kitchen table three times. That is a personal thing. It is not opposed to good practice. As long as rituals do not invade the conduct of the practice itself, it will be all right. That is the key point. The procedure itself, once underway, is non-negotiable. We are either doing it or we are not. There is no in-between on that. If someone wants to do a hula dance before meditation, be my guest. Just don't get too winded.
The ancient yogis offer some advice on this that is less about ritual and more about neurobiology. I tend to favor that. The progression of a short routine of asanas to pranayama, and then into meditation has been known for centuries to provide a consistent pathway for settling the nervous system into deep meditation. I recommend it because of its time-tested consistency. If something else is needed to settle down, then that is up to each individual, and I honor it. Just keep the practice of deep meditation itself in its simplest form, and everything will be fine.
Also keep in mind that the experience in meditation will be up and down and sideways from day to day and week to week. That is the ever-changing process of purification going on within us. Whatever we are doing before meditation will have minimal effect on that, so let's not knock ourselves out trying to set up for a particular experience in deep meditation. Our nervous system knows what it needs, and all we have to do is go along for the ride in our practices -- self-pacing as necessary, of course.
We cannot know what each meditation will be clearing out. But we do know the simple procedure for optimizing the process, and the recommendation is to always favor that. If the preparation beforehand involves a personal ritual or something else conducive, that is okay too. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 3:55:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Jim, you have felt very free to present yoga tips and tricks of your own on the forum, havent you? I'm assuming that the reason that you did not classify those as complications, was simply because you find them helpful.
Excellent point. But the suggestions I make don't involve additives to meditation. Additives to meditation, IMO, are a trap. That was the point of this thread.
I was mostly surprised at your timing. I started a thread advocating simplicity. You professed agreement, then offered precisely the sort of complication I was warning about. It's absolutely your right to disagree, but it felt peculier that you'd choose this thread to inject that stuff, under the guise of agreement with my point (which was 180 degrees the opposite). I wasn't (and still am not) angry, just a bit dismayed. Sorry if my dismay made you angry. And forgive me for declining to argue further. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 6:33:01 PM
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I wasn't (and still am not) angry, just a bit dismayed. Sorry if my dismay made you angry. And forgive me for declining to argue further.
When anger and aggression are denied, and denial may well be built into the expression of the anger, written all over it from the first expression of it to the last, it is called passive aggression. You are not stupid, and are a skilled writer, and you know what you are writing.
Your dismay made you angry, that's the truth of it. The post was nicely-spirited all the way until that happened.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 6:40:34 PM
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P.S. it's true Jim, in a way that my post doesn't mix well pedagogically with yours. They contain two different, and almost contradictory approaches to the same thing, which can be potentially confusing for someone learning.
It might have been better if I made another post which referred back to this one, but, well, I just didn't recognize that at the time of writing.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 7:21:56 PM
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quote:
As long as rituals do not invade the conduct of the practice itself, it will be all right. That is the key point. The procedure itself, once underway, is non-negotiable. We are either doing it or we are not. There is no in-between on that. If someone wants to do a hula dance before meditation, be my guest. Just don't get too winded.
Well in that case.. I guess I was wrong. I am sorry Weaver and David. Every one works differently.. I guess I should always keep that in mind. Something that would complicate things for me.. may simplify things for some one else. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 8:05:13 PM
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| No problem Shanti! No reason. I didn't intend my statement to be taken as something for others to follow either, it's just something that has helped me sometimes, and I have changed it to that too. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 8:55:46 PM
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Shanti said:
I am sorry Weaver and David. Every one works differently.. I guess I should always keep that in mind. Something that would complicate things for me.. may simplify things for some one else.
Yes, except that you have nothing to apologize for. Except maybe ... any chance you could apologize for apologizing unnecessarily? (That's a joke -- please don't!)
You were concerned that the modification I mention would be something that you would have to unlearn. That would certainly be a risk in certain kinds of modifications to meditation, but I think the risk is very low in this one. The reason is that it is sort of 'self-melting' in a way. It's dropped away every single time you meditate.
Ironically, this way of starting meditation can help to soften and actually simplify the meditation in a sense. It seems to me to be a general-purpose de-conditioner; it can help eliminate habits like inappropriate attention to breath or excessive tightness or obsessiveness in the mental approach to the mantra.
The following is a dialog I had on the old forum with an experienced meditator who found this technique very useful for overcoming the habit of following the mantra with the breath. I may post it up as a separate topic some time.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=182
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=199
From: "RobGee"
Hi All:
i have been a meditator for many years but have come to ayp only a few months ago. i have always meditated on the breath as the main aspect of my practice. So-ham or just going with the observation of the inhale and the exhale as the main component.
Sambhavi is not difficult for, mula bhanda easy, uddiyana bandha easy, siddhasana also easy for me to use.
The problem i am having is with the iam mantra and breath. I am finding it difficult to separate pranayama and meditation as Yogani suggested to me in a post. I find myself inhaling on the i and exhaling on the am. i can consciously drop this rhythm but it keeps returning.
i am sure that the practice will eventually smooth this wrinkle out, but i am wondering if any other long time breath aficianados had this problem to begin with.
Thanks,
Hari Om
Rob
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From: <obsidian9999>
Hi Rob,
yes I do have some suggestions which I think might be quite helpful in your
case.
You are probably very tuned to paying attention to your breath after those years of experience. You may need a little re-habituation.
I'd suggest beginning your meditation with saying your mantra out loud, at whatever pace seems natural. Then 'get lazy' and let it get quieter and go to a whisper and to nothing, while you still follow it with your mind. It could take a few minutes to get to this point where you are externally silent.
Try starting your meditations this way. See if it helps to rehabituate you. It may take several months to get rehabituated, so be patient. If and when starting out loud no longer serves you, don't bother with it.
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From: "RobGee" <robg33>
An update that the audible iam to begin with has helped me immensely in putting the mantra in front of the breath problem i had.
Thanks again
Rob
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From: "jim_and_his_karma"
Great news (and thanks for being kind enough to report back)! Now let go of it completely,
quickly, before it turns to habit!
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From: "obsidian9999"
Rob,
I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for getting back to me. This helps me
know whether I should suggest it again to someone else some other time if needed. It is something I found helpful myself in the past.
I don't think there's any problem with starting meditation every time
this way if you like, although you may find it no longer necessary in
the longer run. However, I occasionally start my meditation this way
now and then. I'm going to speak rather vaguely now I know, but you
may understand me when I say this; it helps me get back to how soft
and simple the technique is.
Best regards,
-David
From: "RobGee"
Not vague at all, i understand your meaning. Again i thank all who responded to my query, all have helped.
Rob
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 12 2006 9:28:06 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 10:11:57 PM
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| David.. I don't know how I could apply this to Shamyama.. After I drop the sutra.. and go into silence.. I count my breath.. I try to keep my mind off it.. but the only way I can stay away from counting is if I don't breath.. that is not an option for long though.. if you know what I mean So wording the mantra will not help me.. it is one more thing that will go away on its own I guess.. I will just have to keep at it. Thanks David. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 10:29:54 PM
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You are right that this doesn't apply to Samyama.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
David.. I don't know how I could apply this to Shamyama.. After I drop the sutra.. and go into silence.. I count my breath.. I try to keep my mind off it.. but the only way I can stay away from counting is if I don't breath.. that is not an option for long though.. if you know what I mean So wording the mantra will not help me.. it is one more thing that will go away on its own I guess.. I will just have to keep at it. Thanks David.
There may be a mistake in your approach, marked in red. Why are you trying to keep your mind off it? It's not your problem, it's not your business. Taking your mind off it is not your problem either. It's also none of your business. Be easy about it. Don't fuss.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 07:13:06 AM
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Yep, I knew I had used the wrong words. It is so hard to explain stuff in writing.. when I said "try to keep my mind off" I meant when I realize I am counting.. I stop but with that my breath stops. Like in meditation.. when you realize you are off the mantra.. you return to the mantra.. The problem with Shamyama is.. I have to return to silence.. and the count is really loud then.. I don't know if I was in any way successful in explaining what I meant this time around either..
Near, something you posted got me thinking..
quote:
3. What happens when a thought comes: Between the time we lose the mantra and get into thoughts a very important thing happens. We touch our pure bliss consciousness once. This is how u make progress in meditation. So a thought is not a bad sign, in fact it indicates something good has just happened.
I have always had trouble with a sudden jump in my heart and head during meditation. After I read what you posted from the book.. I realized one thing. During meditation when I realize I am off the mantra.. my heart/head jumps and I am back on my mantra.. I wonder if this jump is in any way associated with touching the pure bliss consciousness. If it was kundalini.. it should have happened at any point.. why only at the point when I realize I am off the mantra. I cannot be sure because it is such a quick process.. I don't know if the jump comes first to remind me I am off.. in which case it could be kundalini.. or if the realization that I am off the mantra comes first.. in which case it is consciousness.. I know I should not be analyzing everything.. but if it is not kundalini.. then i don't have to cut down on any practices.. Other than this, I don't have any energy overloads..
Any suggestions anyone? |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 13 2006 07:37:32 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 10:59:56 AM
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Dear Shanti,
My suggestion is you don't have expectations or worry what the jumping is. It is simply an experience of the purification process.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 12:37:48 PM
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Purification for a year? ..that must be one big bad karma |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 08:11:42 AM
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Dear Shanti,
Purification is a for a lifetime not simply a year.Even when think we have reached enlightenment there will be further levels to reach and the daily practices are still necessary.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Overcoming Pushiness in Meditation
