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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 2:47:48 PM
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This is sort of resonating with the "Lost Soul" thread, also on this board.
A few years ago, I hit rock bottom. I did asana, and then AYP. As I was starting to feel really at peace, I read something from swami satyananda where he denigrated those who come to yoga from failed lives, seeking to escape their lot. I knew he was wrong, but I was EXTREMELY upset that he'd be stupid enough to write this. It came close to derailing my sadhana. I literally cursed him out out loud. And it gave me a slight complex. Was I trying to escape the maya due to bona fide spiritual pull, or was I just a failure looking for a "way out"?
Then things flipped me topsy turvy. I was, to a casual observer, an unquestionable success (unfortunately I'm experiencing some really tough times as a result...ironically worse than before, but am feeling fine about it, thanks to AYP). And shortly after this turnabout, I read some spiritual writer somewhere saying that spirtual dalliances by successful people are a cliche, and that it's easy for someone doing well to accept and let go, having a cushion beneath them. I laughed and laughed and laughed.
Screw these writers, all of them. Please, whether you're up or you're down, just follow your bhakti. Both stances offer opportunities, and both offer traps. But cultivate and trust your bhakti. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 07 2006 2:49:02 PM |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 3:43:26 PM
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Hari Om
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
cultivate and trust your bhakti.
Hello Jim,
Let me ask a question that others may be pondering.
How can one cultivate and trust one's bhakti when they may not know what it is? What are your experiences or recommendations? How does one find this (specifically).
For me , I am fine with my current course and speed and am blessed... yet I can hear others , not even on this AYP forum (yet), ask this question.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 4:37:23 PM
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Everything that changes and calculates and moves and strives and remembers should be viewed as light joyful play (I don't like the word "detachment", because it implies a coldness and heartlessness that's not at all right).
Everything that doesn't change, doestn't calculate, doesn't move, doestn' strive, and doesn't remember should be deeply identified with and cherished. Cuz it's all that's real.
I'd urge everyone to bear in mind, too, that the deepest insights, and the greatest erudition on the spiritual life are still category #1 (Yogani alludes to this profoundly when he says that even potent insights are still "experiences"). Don't purge or spurn that stuff, it's not "bad". Just deemphasize it. Let go. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 07 2006 4:38:45 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 4:38:57 PM
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For the last 2 days I was thinking of something along the same line.. I totally totally believe in what I am doing.. but how do I know if what I am doing is right or wrong. To someone who believes in something else completely.. I am such a looser.. So how do I know I am not just wasting my time.. putting my complete bhakti in something that may lead me further away from truth.. what is the truth by the way? What is anything in this world really.. who do you believe. When you are a child.. you believe in Santa Clause... well then you find out he is not real.. As a teen you believe you know everything.. then you have kids who are teens and wish you hadn't thought the way you did when you were a teen... You wish your parents would not be so annoying.. forgetful.. when you are their age.. you wish you had understood and supported your parents a little more.. so at every stage of your life the truth appears different. .. today what is right may be completely wrong tomorrow.. My neighbor believes is using every min of her life to do something with her child.. she does not believe is losing one sec of her life resting, meditating, reading something inspirational.. she is the happiest person I know.. so is she doing a better job being happy than me? What if I am trying to crawl under a rock that seems to give me a sense of security.. trying to get far away from feelings.. like I said nothing really gets to me anymore.. I think it is good.. but is it? Is it better to fight for what you think is right.. even if you know you will be unhappy.. or withdraw yourself into you inner silence? I have chosen the second.. but is that right? Building un-attachments towards things that meant the world to me few years back... I enjoyed socializing.. but now at parties I wonder what I am doing there.... I did not want to post this, it does not do justice to AYP. I am not against AYP, just the opposite.. I am a total believer.. Just a thought.. I guess this too shall pass..  |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 5:37:19 PM
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Hari Om
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
I totally totally believe in what I am doing.. but how do I know if what I am doing is right or wrong.
Hello Shanti,
first thank you for your post, as it shows a level of compassion and honesty. Many will probably post to this and have more profound things to say on this an give you mutiple points of view... but let me say, starting with with ' I totally totally believe in what I am doing ' is a good thing. Why is this? When you find a better way, you will take it, because you belive in what you are doing. You voice questions of many people/seekers. Few are blessed with a guru/sage or teacher that shows the way with the least amount of thrashing. Some thrash and leave the path, some do not. Any house can stand in good weather, its the ones that can stay straight, provide shulter to the owner that provide the highest benefit; in us, it's being one-pointed and steadfast to what we find valuable. This is what you have acknowledged 'I totally totally believe in what I am doing'. Nothing more need be discussed, you are with the Right (rtam) and your dharma ( that which upholds).
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 07 2006 5:44:38 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 6:05:45 PM
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Shanti, can I let you in on a secret?
From the moment you were born, people have been telling you that they know stuff, and have been convincing you that you can too.
The truth is, no-one has perfectly-reliable vision. No-one. These human brains are not all they are cracked up to be, even those of 'the greats'. Trust me on this. Other people here may tell you I am wrong about this. Trust me on this. I'm not.
Many things believed bad today will be more properly believed good tomorrow, when people know more. And there may be things we consider good today that will be considered bad and wicked tomorrow.
What can you do about this? Well, if you are ready to face these facts, things may shift for you from looking for absolutes, towards having a continuous, dynamic policy of always seeking the best. Leave everything open to possible revision. Keep your intelligence open, not closed.
That's living without fixed reference point. It's a spiritual virtue that the religions denigrate. It takes courage and wisdom. It's not as comforting as the more absolute vision. But it's closer to the truth.
Some Zen schools have a saying 'Only don't know'. Make sure to practice that regularly. You have all these questions. Don't know the answer to them. Don't leap from what you have discovered is one flimsy pseudo-certainty into what you think is a new certainty. You have no new certainties. Relax into the truth, that you are uncertain, and operate with strength and integrity from there.
Look around you. Those with the greatest conviction, with the most black-and-white views, are often those with the least sophisticated and nuanced vision. They have learned little and seen less, and it's all so clear and certain.
The need for certainties is neurotic. Only don't know. There is great strength and integrity in that once you learn to cease to be afraid of it.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 6:29:38 PM
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The only thing that does'nt change, is change itself 
Louis |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 6:37:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
[Some Zen schools have a saying 'Only don't know'.
my favorite is "all calculation is miscalculation" |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 7:23:40 PM
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Hello Shanti,
You are posting some very intricate questions, and I would like to write down some thoughts that came up in my mind by reading them.
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
how do I know if what I am doing is right or wrong...
This is a very healthy question to ask oneself, indicating a broader view of life than if the mind was completely set in what it thinks is right or wrong. This means that you will seek the truth or what is right wherever it may be, without preconceived notions.
Only you can find the answer to this question within yourself, if you find that AYP leads you in the direction you want to, if you are happy with its effects on you this far.
quote:
so at every stage of your life the truth appears different...
Of course. Our consciousness evolves and can be aware of more and more truth. So, you can ask yourself, am I able to understand now the "truth" I understood as a child and as a teenager and so forth. If you are, then your awareness is broader now than it was then, for at those stages the awareness couldn't comprehend all the truth you can now.
Then the next question you can ask yourself, do I want to pursue a broadening of my awareness of life? If yes, then AYP is likely right for you, if not then maybe it isn't. Because some want to find happiness in a very narrow view of life where they can feel comfortable and secure.
Can we be of more help to others (and ourselves) by understanding other people better and of more of life in general, and by overcoming limitations in our minds and feelings? I believe so, and I believe that is what AYP helps us with. |
Edited by - weaver on Apr 07 2006 7:31:16 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 8:05:20 PM
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Thanks Frank, David and Weaver..
I started thinking about this when I re-read Yogani's lesson#132 on "What is a sin?"
http://www.aypsite.org/132.html
Growing up almost everything I did was a sin in someones eyes.. wear shoes in the prayer room.. sin, your feet touch a book.. sin, praying during your periods.. sin, not praying.. sin, ... and of course as I grew older there were bigger sins (I may be guilty of quite a few of those ) ... but I always wondered who made these sins up? When I read Yogani's lesson.. everything made perfect sense.. but that is when I started thinking.. then what if all the things I believe in are not true. Not that it matters.. I am not giving up what I have.. in 38 years this is the first time I am truly happy.. I hope it is not an illusion... esp. because they say everything is an illusion.. maya... I hope this is freeing us from maya and not creating a bigger one...
You are right Louis..
quote:
The only thing that does'nt change, is change itself
Jim, I am way off your topic here.. I am sorry |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 07 2006 8:42:08 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 2:01:14 PM
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Jim said:
I read something from swami satyananda where he denigrated those who come to yoga from failed lives, seeking to escape their lot. I knew he was wrong, but I was EXTREMELY upset that he'd be stupid enough to write this. It came close to derailing my sadhana.
Many wise people remain stuck in strong errors and presumptions of their culture. It's true all the way across the board, in Europe and India and China and other parts of Asia. Saint Francis of Assissi, for all his greatness (and he was very great in many ways), inherited the dogmatic beliefs as well as the problemmatic sexual repression and phobias of his time.
Another ironic twist is that some people who might be in many respects considered less 'enlightened' or 'wise', may transcend the errors that other, maybe 'wiser', or more 'enlightened' people, are stuck in; neither Jesus nor Buddha seem to have taken the time (at least in the record) to address slavery as a grave and unacceptable social error or 'sin'; and yet there were some almost-unremembered secular ethical philosophers of Ancient Greece who did.
One of the reasons why I am more hopeful about this 'open source' approach and the movement away from the expectation of the 'all-knowing-one'; simply because the best views on the many, many issues of life are spread through many different people. If you want the best, you have to shop around.
Swami Satyananda mistakes here may be part of a broad error of sentiment and approach that produced the pathologies of the Caste System in India (I'm not saying that the Caste System is necessarily bad through-and-through, but I think no-one disputes that there are pathologies related to it).
Yip, it mighnt't be immediately obvious, but he may be operating from some of the sentiments of Caste-prejudice, even though Caste is not explicit in what he is saying. A common sentiment in India has been that only the 'pure' deserve Yoga/Spirit/God; the 'impure' are inferior and do not. This is a mistake because it is Yoga/Spirit/God that purifies.
This mistake has been likened to taking this view of a snow-plough: that one is not worthy of the use of a snow-plough until one has taken a shovel and cleared the snow away in front of the snow-plough.
So if there is snow in your path, and you can't walk through it, screw the caste-begrudgers who think you don't deserve it, and grab the nearest snow-plough! If they get in your way, plough through them!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 08 2006 2:51:11 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 4:27:11 PM
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A paradox put forth by Epimenides:
The following sentence is false.
The preceding sentence is true.
We get stuck between these when we try to determine from an external source what's 'right' and 'wrong'. It's an endless loop. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 8:40:11 PM
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Hi Shanti,
There can be many questions on spiritual path. Whether this is really true or not (is there really something more than what we see?). Then it becomes to our chosen path - Whether the path we are following is correct or not. Then it comes to our confidence - given the path is right and the truth exists then do we have it in ourselves to reveal the truth using the path or not.
These doubts are common. With time everything will become clear. If we are not getting results with a particular path for long, then we ourselves wont stick to it. And also as we progress better paths come in our way and answers will come themselves. The only thing we have to do is to stick to what we see as true now.
-Near |
Edited by - nearoanoke on Apr 08 2006 8:45:13 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 8:53:54 PM
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quote:
The only thing we have to do is to stick to what we see as true now.
Thanks Near.. That is what I plan to do |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 4:39:50 PM
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Hi Shanti,
Where will your neighbor's happiness be after she no longer has her child around to be with? Will she find something else to be happy about or will she feel that loss? Maybe both?
I believe that being true to who you are is key for our inner peace and sense of happiness. If having a pretty house or ring makes someone happy or being in an intimate relationship is the source of happiness for another then power to them but they will eventually know suffering once these impermanent aspects of life disappear.
If your search for truth and to know God/ the universe/ what is etc. makes you happy and is what interests you the most at this moment in time, then that is your truth. The good news is that this appears to be the one thing that does not lead to suffering in the end in that it is eternal instead of finite.
Enjoy your life, it is yours to enjoy!
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Edited by - Anthem on Apr 09 2006 4:42:06 PM |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 8:44:16 PM
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It's just like the tv show 'Fantasy Island'... (da plane, da plane... Smiles everyone!)
We all come here for different purposes, to learn different lessons, and have different experiences. So it doesn't make any sense to compare yourself to others. Apples and oranges...
Yogani can be Mr. Roarke and we can draw straws to be Tattoo! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 9:31:08 PM
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da plane, da plane...
da physical plane, da astral plane, da causal plane... 
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 5:09:07 PM
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quote:
I believe that being true to who you are is key for our inner peace and sense of happiness.
If your search for truth and to know God/ the universe/ what is etc. makes you happy and is what interests you the most at this moment in time, then that is your truth. The good news is that this appears to be the one thing that does not lead to suffering in the end in that it is eternal instead of finite.
Thanks Anthem. Yes.. being true to myself and searching for God is what makes me happy.. It is also true that this does not lead to suffering at the end.. but the journey is long and lonely.. isn't it? There is no two ways about it.. I can look for comfort and temporary solutions here.. but finally I have to make this journey myself... its not always easy... esp. when everyone around you is wondering what is going on with you? Not only am I going through a very confusing phase of my life.. the spiritual pull.. once started does not stop.. I cannot go back to what I was a year back.. However.. it is a confusing phase for my family and friends too. They can see me change.. but don't know what to make of it.. why so much meditation.. why so much aloofness.. why don't I talk and drink and get silly with my friends any more.. why don't I get upset when my husband picks on me (my kids are happy about this one).. Everybody around me was always used to a fixed pattern of behavior on my part.. suddenly things are changing and they don't know what to expect or how to behave any more.. I can feel it.. but why don't I care any more?
I always had to prove to the world I did not need anybody to hold my hand.. I could get what I wanted for myself.. I have a reputation of being really feisty.. so why is it that suddenly I don't care to prove myself any more.. am I hiding under this rock(inner silence) of security? Am I loosing myself.. the fight.. am I giving up? Why am I happy doing this.. should I not be fighting to hold on to myself...
Sorry.. I'm just going through a very confused phase.. like Yogani puts it.. its second puberty... not fun. What I don't get is.. why am I the only idiot who seems to feel confused.. why does nobody else feel this way... confused!!!!!
PS. Please dont get me wrong.. I am not unhappy or depressed.. as I said I have never been happier in my life.. I am just Confused!!!! |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 10 2006 7:44:30 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 5:43:23 PM
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so why is it that suddenly I don't care to prove myself any more..
Because in realms such as that one, we only try to prove what we know to be false.
Any further questions?
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 7:06:04 PM
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Hi Shanti:
In time, people will question what is different about you less and come to rely on your rising inner strength more. You will have more to give and will be feisty again, because that is you. You will be reborn in spiritual feistiness. We are all being reborn as our spiritual selves. Nothing is lost except the darkness, and everything is gained. That is how it goes.
Yogis and yoginis are ugly ducklings that turn into stunningly beautiful swans.
So, ugly ducklings everywhere, take heart!
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 7:45:52 PM
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Thank you Yogani.. you always have the right answers don't you?
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Edited by - Shanti on Apr 10 2006 9:55:11 PM |
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Locrian
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 04:19:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Shanti, can I let you in on a secret?
From the moment you were born, people have been telling you that they know stuff, and have been convincing you that you can too.
The truth is, no-one has perfectly-reliable vision. No-one. These human brains are not all they are cracked up to be, even those of 'the greats'. Trust me on this. Other people here may tell you I am wrong about this. Trust me on this.
This is so true! Anything I see is running through this "I" as the filter. This has been a living truth which has brought with it what I will call "spiritual confidence," meaning that I do not need it to conform to anything and I do not need others to see the same. It has been a very freeing understanding for me! |
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Wil
Sweden
150 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2021 : 2:38:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
This is sort of resonating with the "Lost Soul" thread, also on this board.
A few years ago, I hit rock bottom. I did asana, and then AYP. As I was starting to feel really at peace, I read something from swami satyananda where he denigrated those who come to yoga from failed lives, seeking to escape their lot. I knew he was wrong, but I was EXTREMELY upset that he'd be stupid enough to write this. It came close to derailing my sadhana. I literally cursed him out out loud. And it gave me a slight complex. Was I trying to escape the maya due to bona fide spiritual pull, or was I just a failure looking for a "way out"?
Then things flipped me topsy turvy. I was, to a casual observer, an unquestionable success (unfortunately I'm experiencing some really tough times as a result...ironically worse than before, but am feeling fine about it, thanks to AYP). And shortly after this turnabout, I read some spiritual writer somewhere saying that spirtual dalliances by successful people are a cliche, and that it's easy for someone doing well to accept and let go, having a cushion beneath them. I laughed and laughed and laughed.
Screw these writers, all of them. Please, whether you're up or you're down, just follow your bhakti. Both stances offer opportunities, and both offer traps. But cultivate and trust your bhakti.
Namaste Jim you have been calling me. I feel you (In an uncanny amount). Escaping the failure with yoga, that isn't possible...and screw that writer who says that "spiritual dalliances" is a cliche endeavour to engage in when you have success enough to fall back on a cusion. I mean who wouldn't be hopeful if Bill Gates or a handful of presidents practiced yoga? That would put a spin on things for the better, better as closer to what already is ofc  |
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Down-and-Out Yoga and Flying High Yoga
