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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 04:39:34 AM
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 Everything in its right place.
If an opponent punches you on the nose it's threre to remind you only that being punched hurts. Better to step away from the punch or strike first. Either way the only true result will be far less pain for your nose what the result is for your opponent is outside your control.
Being brave is not the absence fear, it is about over coming fear. Notice how your co worker creates those internal fears and distortions. There is no need to reject or to love those fears, only to notice them in context. Once you accept, then you can overcome them. Irrationality is the enemy, not seeing everything as it really is.
An object cannot cause fear or happiness because the object cannot recognise you. It is you that creates the emotion in response to the object. Certainly the removal of the object will return things to a status quo, but always another object appears. Conquer by exposing those emotions as they arise, watch for them, where they arise, make them your slaves and not you there's.
You cannot change your nature, you are made of a certain stuff and you have to work with what you have, good or bad. You don't even have to accept it, but you should attempt to make the best use of it that you can. After all, it's all you have
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 05:07:58 AM
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| Thanks a lot dear Karl |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 08:30:24 AM
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I think this may be similar to what karl is saying. Talking to them often doesn't help if you already know them well. It is not for the purpose of making them change; that would be manipulative! It is to "humanize" them in your own mind. In other words, it is easy to hate someone if you don't know them.
There is a certain type of person who only knows how to live by hurting people. They have no empathy and will never permanently "be nice". They only are nice sometimes to set people up to hurt them.
This kind of person gets energy from people they hurt.
This part is hard to understand, but they are not like you and me, and never will be. They are only hurting people because people react.
The victims either express the hurt feelings, or they get angry. Either one gives up energy, and the perpetrator got what they want. They don't really care which reaction they get.
The only way to stop them is to ignore them. Even when you feel hurt or angry, don't show it to them. This is a "narcissistic" person, and
once they see that no matter what they do it has no effect on you,
they will back off.
Then you see that you had a part in their evil manipulation. If there are times when you are forced into some action because of them, you have to do it with no emotion, especially if they can see you.
They will do anything to get people to react. When you don't react,
they will stop hurting you and move on to the next victim.
They will never stop because they feel this is their purpose in life.
They think if they stop, they have no purpose, and therefore would not exist any more.
This is one manifestation of the concept Yogani talks about, that we are not finished until everyone is enlightened. The only thing that will change all the narcissistic people is when nobody reacts to them anymore. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 09:37:42 AM
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there are three NLP presuppositions worth thinking about:
All behaviour has a positive intention.
People are not their behaviours
People are doing the best they can with the resources they have.
A bell chimes because that was what it was meant to do. It chimes for whoever pulls the rope. It does not care if it brings the hour of death, or the hour of birth. It's just a bell. It is we who ascribe it certain powers. The bell appears to have the power of life or death. It tolls solemnly to announce a death, it chimes happily to announce a birth. How fickle is the listener
You cannot stop this happening by sending out Love or force to the bell, because the bell is an external manifestation. The more you try, the stronger the bell seems to become. It can infact seem to take on a supernatural force if enough time is spent thinking about it.
You have to smash your internal representation of the bell and not the external bell. It's because we cannot differentiate one from the other that it becomes very confusing. Be clear, you do not orbit around your thoughts, your are the very centre of them. They arise and sink in you, not you in them.
Smash your hand into a reflection and only your fist will hurt. You can destroy the surface of the mirror, but you can never destroy the reflection. The brighter burning light does not destroy the shadow, they rise and fall together. The brighter the light burns the stronger the shadow becomes. It's a simple truth, but somehow in the ebb and flow of everyday life our vision gets obscured and intelligence goes AWOL.
When you can hold onto this, see things as they are, do it for longer and longer each day, eventually the simplicity returns.
Only the idiot really sees the truth the rest of us have to work hard to become idiots. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 09:42:56 AM
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Awesome post Karl!!!
Thanks.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 10:26:00 AM
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Reminded me:
How Sweet To be An Idiot
How sweet to be an Idiot,
As harmless as a cloud,
Too small to hide the sun
Almost poking fun,
At the warm but insecure untidy crowd.
How sweet to be an idiot,
And dip my brain in joy,
Children laughing at my back,
With no fear of attack,
As much retaliation as a toy.
How sweet to be an idiot, how sweet.
I tiptoe down the street,
Smiled at everyone I meet,
But suddenly a scream,
Smashes through my dream,
Fie fye foe fum,
I smell the blood of an asylum,
(Blood of an asylum,
But mother I play so beautifully, listen. ha ha)
Fie fye foe fum,
I smell the blood of the asylum,
Hey you, you're such a pedant,
You got as much brain as a dead ant,
As much imagination as a caravan sign.
But I still love you, still love you,
Oooh how sweet to be an idiot,
How sweet. how sweet. How sweet.
Music and lyrics by: Neil Innes
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 12:15:21 PM
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The idiot thing pretty much sums it up.
I can see my problems at my workplace all stem from the fact that I resist being proved as an idiot. I have this fear that it might look as if i am being dominated if I do what that bullying person asks me to do. What will others think of me? This "I" that I take myself to be needs protection especially as approval in the eyes of others. It cannot survive otherwise. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 12:47:27 PM
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| Then let it perish, be an idiot. The wise man knows he knows nothing. Better a dancing fool than a foolish dancer. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 1:47:51 PM
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Thanks dear Ehter and Wow dear Karl... Being an idiot rocks |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 1:56:34 PM
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| OMG...awesome post Karl...you are excellent at writing and making comparaisons |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 2:34:32 PM
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True Karl. The bully points out our mistakes (or tells us the rules) often before others which will force us to look at our failings which we know but conveniently ignore. It hurts more when we realize there is a truth to what they are pointing out.
There are other cases where we know they are wrong but we feel helpless as we dont have the oratory skills to point out the fallacy in their logic. There is also a fear. They cross the lines but we fear to say anything against them or be assertive. What do you think about these cases? |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 2:40:34 PM
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Well, since you mentioned dancing... 
quote:
Originally posted by karl
If an opponent punches you on the nose it's threre to remind you only that being punched hurts. Better to step away from the punch or strike first. Either way the only true result will be far less pain for your nose what the result is for your opponent is outside your control.
Just curious Karl...have you ever been punched in the nose? or the face?
I have been--last week actually (and other times too). I responded by trying to subdue the striker (my brother) with some judo. I had a little success, and thankfully, the fight was broken up (by my mom!) before it got any worse. It was kind of a primal ballet dance with a torrent of wills, energy, and the unifying momentum of truth. No one was hurt badly (I got a small black eye and some other trivial bruises).
In any case, I know one thing for certain. We don't know how we will act until these kind of things actually happen to us directly. We may think we know what we will do, but when the fists are flying at you (and repeatedly), there's not much time to contemplate the non-dual nature of pain or simply "step away"--especially if the opponent keeps coming at you!
You have to defend sometimes, and I have always favored the judo way (literally translates as "the gentle way" in Japanese), which is to use the opponent's momentum to bring the conflict to a graceful end--with as little damage as possible. The goal is not to hurt--the goal is to subdue and render the enemy helpless.
In my opinion, there's nothing more delusive and un-true than believing that one has eliminated one's ego. I believe we transcend and expand far beyond our ego, but so long as there is a body (and mind) in existence, then there is an ego. Ego doesn't get destroyed--ego gets re-oriented towards more compassionate service for all humanity.
That is why I am so weary of teachers like Adyashanti--who I believe are dwelling in "castles in the air"--as Yogani puts it. Adyashanti perhaps thinks: "I have extinguished the ego completely, and now only Spirit remains. From henceforth, it is only Spirit (Consciousness) that is aware of Itself." What a trap that is! Real non-duality acknowledges the unique fingerprints of individual souls, forever joined in the cosmic whole, but nevertheless still expressions of the beauty of diversity and infinite variety. Is that not the paradoxical truth? Both individual and whole, at the same time?
Experience vs. philosophy. Big difference. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 3:22:06 PM
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at Near: no fear over here...i just speak my mind and if they dont like it that is their problem
at Bodhi Tree: i am not very familiar with Adyashanti but if he thinks that than he has a still a long way to go, (Yogani names it non relational enquiry)cause non duality is like you described...but from what i heard about Adyashanti is that he is not the kind of teachers building castes in the air |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 4:02:32 PM
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| Yeah I too dont think Adyshanti thinks only spirit remains. He mentioned it in many of his talks and even in the recent webcast yesterday that it goes out of the head up & out and then comes back down & in and it is mainly about the embodiment of the spirit in the human form. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 4:22:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Well, since you mentioned dancing...
quote:
Originally posted by karl
If an opponent punches you on the nose it's threre to remind you only that being punched hurts. Better to step away from the punch or strike first. Either way the only true result will be far less pain for your nose what the result is for your opponent is outside your control.
Just curious Karl...have you ever been punched in the nose? or the face?
Probably easier to say where I haven't been punched or kicked.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 4:37:30 PM
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I like Adyashanti. Earlier in this thread, I said I dislike his teachings, which is somewhat true, but it's also true that some of his stuff jives with me and even helps me get closer to the Source. But his stuff pales in comparison to the lion roar of AYP--again, for me, personally.
But I brought it up to challenge Karl to remember that, in my opinion, the best metaphors are drawn from direct experience--not just from hypothetical situations, pedantic verbage, or abstract non-dual talk.
Adyashanti does share some of his personal anecdotes. For instance, from "The End of Your World":
At that moment, it suddenly hit me that I would never again see life as most human beings see it. It was as if at that moment I felt like something within me was completely leaving the human condition. Viewing things from a conventional perspective was over for me; it was finished. This knowing was accompanied by a bit of nostalgia. There was a part of me that thought, “It’s not all suffering; it’s not all bad. There are wonderful moments. Here I am at this wedding, and there are all these wonderful people having different interactions.” But in that moment I saw that the way most human beings view the world was no longer the way I viewed it. And I knew I’d never view it that way again. Whatever had happened, there was no going back.
To me, this seems to be leaning towards the illusion of attainment (i.e. "I have arrived").
Of course, I could be totally off-base here. Wait, check that--I am definitely off-base here. The potentiality and actuality of my off-based-ness have merged! LOL. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jan 20 2012 8:35:05 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 4:47:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Probably easier to say where I haven't been punched or kicked.
If we ever meet in person, I would be happy to teach you some non-violent self-defense techniques. No hurting, only disarmament!  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 5:30:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nearoanoke
There are other cases where we know they are wrong but we feel helpless as we dont have the oratory skills to point out the fallacy in their logic. There is also a fear. They cross the lines but we fear to say anything against them or be assertive. What do you think about these cases?
I think they need a hug.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 5:46:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Adyashanti does share some of his personal anecdotes. For instance, from "The End of Your World":
At that moment, it suddenly hit me that I would never again see life as most human beings see it. It was as if at that moment I felt like something within me was completely leaving the human condition. Viewing things from a conventional perspective was over for me; it was finished. This knowing was accompanied by a bit of nostalgia. There was a part of me that thought, “It’s not all suffering; it’s not all bad. There are wonderful moments. Here I am at this wedding, and there are all these wonderful people having different interactions.” But in that moment I saw that the way most human beings view the world was no longer the way I viewed it. And I knew I’d never view it that way again. Whatever had happened, there was no going back.
If that's not an illusion of attainment, and an exclusive spin on enlightenment, I don't know what is.
In the same context a little later he also mentions that then and there he decided to "walk into that wedding" into that human form of life.
In my opinion liking Yogani need not be exclusive of liking non-dual teachers. There is great practical wisdom in what Adyashanti teaches which I have found quite useful. Just my 2 cents |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 5:53:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Probably easier to say where I haven't been punched or kicked.
If we ever meet in person, I would be happy to teach you some non-violent self-defense techniques. No hurting, only disarmament!
it was a long, long time ago, far, far away.
Best defence is a keen eye and fast legs. If I was forced to fight I never made the mistake of waiting for the first punch. Later I learned a version of Kung Fu, by the time I became proficient there was no requirement to use it |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 6:26:18 PM
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Nearoanoke, agreed.
Karl, I bow to you.  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2012 : 9:12:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Karl, I bow to you.
LOL still got an eternity of meditation to go before that stage is reached.
I was just thinking of those people on board the cruise ship. Imagine finding yourself in the pitch black with the water filling up the space.
It takes me back, about twenty years ago I was caving in North Yorkshire (you might call it pot holing). I was determined to force myself up a body sized tube with several sharp kinks.
It was really body sized and is named conduit spring cave. The result of around 20 minutes of very strenuous dragging myself along in a flat out crawl,was that I could no longer go forward , or backwards. The tube was unrelenting and continued just as narrow for as far as I could see.
Worse, it's called 'spring' because it carries a small stream. As I lay there, trapped, my wet suit had sealed the tube just like a cork. After a few minutes the water had begun to rise. Panic set in as the water continued to get deeper.My body began to swell from adrenalin, making it certain that I wouldn't be able to move, as I unconsciously used my muscle to try and break free. Claustrophobia was really bad. I managed, eventually by sticking my face in the freezing cold water in an attempt to reduce the panic and managed to reverse the crawl.
A few years ago I was camping in Peru, on the Machuu Pitchu trail. I woke up in the tent, there was no light, not even starlight. We were in a cleft in the hills. The sense of claustrophobia was again, very intense. I had to get out of the tent, but outside the darkness was total. The feeling in the cave came right back to me and the effort needed to control the panic was tremendous, it felt like I was going mad. For the rest of the trek I kept a small head torch on a low setting through the night.
If I dwell on that too much, rarely, or read of a disaster that involves being buried alive it can trigger that same feeling. I imagine being buried in the dark, in a coffin or even locked in a small room and the panic feeling and claustrophobia become very intense.
That's my fear, nothing else bothers me, but to be stuck in the dark, buried alive, not being able to move, phew, intense. So, still a long way to go.
Wonder if Ady or Yogani could handle that?
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Edited by - karl on Jan 19 2012 9:21:58 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2012 : 01:40:14 AM
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quote:
In the same context a little later he also mentions that then and there he decided to "walk into that wedding" into that human form of life.
beautiful...marrying the human and the divine
karl...thanks for sharing...my fear is asphyxia....all these fears are non sense, but look how Ramana got enlightened after mastering fear of death ...i thought you emerged as an enlightened being after your Machuu Pitchu adventure |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2012 : 02:51:43 AM
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Asphyxia (Oxygen Deficiency) sounds like a medical problem dear. Are you waiting for it to enlighten you?
Extreme suffering has worked for some but they were also willing to completely let go at that point. I think the more important question is that. Are you willing to let go everything including the desire for enlightenment. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2012 : 02:57:45 AM
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i fear to swallow something and to chock....
yes off course letting go is essential....and i am not expecting enlightening either |
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