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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 07:56:34 AM
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Gumpi,
those are questions that you rmind uses to try and talk you out of spiritual practices. In other words, your brain says "this doesn't make sense, therefore it couldn't work".
meditation works, but not because of reason.
It has to be practiced twice a day without trying to connect reasons with it.
Then eventually the effects will take place. some people will take a lot longer than others to realize this, but the method is the same.
Just imagine an old guru who tells you to keep practicing no matter what you say:
"I don't think this will work"
-keep practicing
"I don't think I'm doing it right"
-keep practicing
"I'm not feeling any effects"
-keep practicing
"I think another method would be better"
-keep practicing
"This is hogwash. Nothing is happening and all you say is keep practicing - I quit!"
-keep practicing! |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 13 2009 08:04:46 AM |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 07:57:32 AM
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Sorry... but I still disagree on the fact that "watching" the mantra is a mental activity...
It's pure and direct receptivity to the vibrations of the mantra, or its effects ...
Meanwhile, M.Mind goes to "sleep" (sorry for using this tricky word again!)
To me, at least, the distinction is very clear. (according to my experience).. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 09:54:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Goddessinside
Thank you Yogani..
I was just expressing some doubts and wanted to make sure that AYP DM works on a deep level not just on the periphery.. cause I was starting to add it to my daily practices, which are already taking about 2 hours, so I wanted to make sure that those 20 minutes were not a waste of time, in a perspective of real and deep spiritual transformation, not just a mind-soothing thing.
Thank you very much for your time and care!
Hi Goddessinside:
Do be mindful about "doubling up" with similar practices in the same routine or day. It can lead to overloads. If you are already doing 2 hour sessions, adding more may not be helpful. Overdoing in practices might also explain some of the adverse symptoms you have been experiencing. Very often in yoga, less can be more.
In AYP, we do not add a new practice until we are stable with the ones we have taken on previously. "Self-pacing" is also very important if we are having imbalances resulting from practices. It is all in the lessons. 
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 09:59:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
If I add extras into my meditation it always seems like they are viying for attention. I have added the eye lift and heel in the perenium and can find they create a distraction either from just being aware that I am doing them. or because they create the feeling of an energy surge (or I imagine a feeling like an energy surge, it's sometimes difficult to differentiate).
Is it better just to drop those distractions, which begs the question is there really any need for them ?
It's a bit confusing when you are aware of a sensation and letting it go to favour the mantra. How is it possible to ignore the experience of the additional add ons, or their effects ?
 Just when you think your inner guru has it sorted I have something else to add to the list of things I need to ignore while concentrating on doing them.
Hi Karl:
In the AYP approach, we cultivate the habits of mudras, bandhas and siddhasana during spinal breathing pranayama, not in deep meditation. Once these become easy habits, then they may begin to appear naturally in deep meditation, without the diversions in attention. That is how it evolves in a way that does not disrupt meditation. It is all in the lessons.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 10:11:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Goddessinside
Sorry... but I still disagree on the fact that "watching" the mantra is a mental activity...
It's pure and direct receptivity to the vibrations of the mantra, or its effects ...
Meanwhile, M.Mind goes to "sleep" (sorry for using this tricky word again!)
To me, at least, the distinction is very clear. (according to my experience)..
Hi again Goddessinside:
Favoring the mantra may seem like watching or listening, especially for advanced practitioners where the mantra (and stillness) may be subtly and blissfully present as soon as the eyes are closed. But the procedure is not to watch or listen to the mantra. It is to favor it, and there is a difference. It is the difference between proactive mantra meditation and passive nada (watching/listening) meditation. The former produces a more reliable result than the latter, because the vibration may not always be present. In other words, if the mantra does not come to us, then we always go to it.
However you like to think about it outside meditation is fine. While you are in meditation better not to think about it. Just do the procedure.
The guru is in you.
PS: But do take to heart my other post above about the hazards of piling on too many practices. Less is more, and stillness is all!
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 11:21:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
quote:
Originally posted by karl
If I add extras into my meditation it always seems like they are viying for attention. I have added the eye lift and heel in the perenium and can find they create a distraction either from just being aware that I am doing them. or because they create the feeling of an energy surge (or I imagine a feeling like an energy surge, it's sometimes difficult to differentiate).
Is it better just to drop those distractions, which begs the question is there really any need for them ?
It's a bit confusing when you are aware of a sensation and letting it go to favour the mantra. How is it possible to ignore the experience of the additional add ons, or their effects ?
Just when you think your inner guru has it sorted I have something else to add to the list of things I need to ignore while concentrating on doing them.
Hi Karl:
In the AYP approach, we cultivate the habits of mudras, bandhas and siddhasana during spinal breathing pranayama, not in deep meditation. Once these become easy habits, then they may begin to appear naturally in deep meditation, without the diversions in attention. That is how it evolves in a way that does not disrupt meditation. It is all in the lessons.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
Doh, I must have somehow got both confused. Mind you I was getting pretty good at balancing it all all I needed was some fire eating, sword swallowing and a clowns bicycle to finish it off.
I can get back to doing nice easy, quiet meditation without the thrills........how will I manage The guru was in me, he was just a bit confused.
Thanks for the reminder,
Karl |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 1:46:04 PM
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Let's face it, nobody does something for nothing. if your guru told you to meditate without explaining any reason for it would you do it? I doubt it. Likewise, if you meditate your whole life and nothing happens you have definitely wasted your time in my opinion.
I still don't understand all this talk about "favouring" the mantra as opposed to concentrating with it. You need to THINK "I am" don't you? That is a thought in your mind is it not? So, how can the mantra "come" to you as if it would just magically appear without your thinking about it?? hahahahaha. That sounds silly!
Concentration means you DELIBERATELY instigate a thought in your mind and stick to it. That is what concentration means. Your attention and awareness are focused on something with intent.
A witness consciousness is spoken of in most meditation instructions as letting thoughts pass by without attaching your emotional reactions and attention to them and getting lost in thought (day dreaming). In other words, you FORGET and IGNORE thoughts when they rise into the mind. This is a popular form of meditation practice.
However, ignoring thoughts is not CONCENTRATION. Concentration is when you make a conscious, deliberate effort to ward off restless thoughts by constantly brining the focus of your mind back again and again until concentration is sustained for longer and longer periods of time. Indeed, this is EXACTLY what Patanjali says. The last 3 steps of Patanjali yoga start with distracted attempts to focus one-pointedly on an object, then to sustain that focus for longer periods of time, which then leads to samadhi.
So forgive me if i haven't understood this. I just do not understand the procedure of mantra meditation taught in the AYP system.
If you forget you were focussing and start getting lost in thoughts, you bring your attention back to the focus, again and again. The idea that you deliberately somehow "lose" the mantra sounds to me like you are allowed to day dream. If this is the case, then it doesn't fit the definition of concentration per Patanjali at all.
No, i don't accept the idea that meditation is day dreaming and then remembering the mantra every now and again. That will accomplish NOTHING. believe me, if that was meditation i would be Self Realised by now. I would have siddhis, i would be able to levitate and fly through the air, read people's minds, see the future, perform miracles, and know all dimensions of reality, not to mention being omniscient and omnipotent. Can't say that day dreaming meditation has conferred any of these benefits of me to date.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 3:59:04 PM
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Gumpi,
not sure if this adds to the discussion, but because I dropped all those distracting things today perhaps, for the first time I have a realisation of what this type of meditation is about. I'm sure if I get on the wrong track with this a good few posts will put me right.
What I experienced (thats the only word I know) was feeling strangely happy after resting. It was like an emotion without any event. Almost like I had experienced something but could not remember it. This is weirdly the inverse of timeline therapy which allows the event to remain but removes the emotion.
The way it works is that you follow the mantra, thats a loose description because it is not slavishly following, more like floating down a river watching something else in front of you already in the current. Sometimes it disappears from view and then you catch sight again.
I think it opens a gateway between your subconcious and some higher self maybe because your conscious mind has gone silent and your subconcious has become occupied in one very focused way.
I'm not sure I'm explaining this correctly because it's very difficult to describe 'not' being somewhere and then being somewhere you are not at the same time. It's not a dream, more a feeling you have been connected to something that you can't understand and being perfectly happy with that because somewhere inside you it feels right.
Right now I just want more, whatever more is ?
When I do timeline therapy with a client then I work with partial trance states so the client associates into a story. The story is experienced either physically or as a vision, whatever is right for the client and representative of their past and future. This is working in a conscious mode with the subconscious performing the necessary changes.
Doing this mantra seems to take me into a subconcious state and then to state that is somewhere else. It's just a tool to do that. The secret is 'letting go'. Letting go into subconcious is not that different (I imagine) to accepting your own death.......infact it felt like that somehow, almost like shock and my breathing seemed to stop or slow to nothing (I was aware somewhere that had happened).
Cant say if it is a mystical experience, more like something wholly natural........bit like experiencing your first orgasm......you know it was good, but somehow you cant quite think what it was that made it so good, it's beyond literal description. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 7:09:46 PM
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Believe me, I know a fruit, it is called yivaliya and tastes somewhat different. But after you eat it, somehow you feel more sensitive and alive. After some time, if you go on eating 1 or 2 per day, you feel even more fine, in peace.
Just joking, it's not about believing if something is working or not. Just try it out and see how it tastes and what comes out of it. I have heard, there is a fruit called apple and it tastes sweet(not everytime ;)). And if you eat it, you don't feel lazy fterwards, it fills your stomach comfortably and feels light and smooth. But someone said to me" believe me, this all is not true, but I must confess, I haven't eaten any apple sofar in my life. I just know, carrots are better,they open your eyes. That's the real deal, the rest you can forget" =P
There are so many fruits, it's sure that people want to have the best fruit, all vitamins in one, ultra delicious, giving energy and not draining it. But hey, that's how it is, there are many fruits with different effects and in the end you eat them to be more healthy or just to enjoy them. Someone is more fine with one fruit, some other prefers another. In the end, one must find that out by directly eating the fruit and see what it brings about. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 10:06:05 AM
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Hi Goddessinside,
Try mantra meditation for a bit as described in AYP. I have gone through the phases of sleep during meditation a few times in the last 4 years of AYP practice.. and it stays for as long as I need it.. and goes away. I just went thru it for the last 3 days.. every time I sat to meditate.. it was like sleep gravity pulled me right into deep sleep.. (I gave up resisting it a while back).. every time I came to.. I started my mantra again.. and within seconds I got drawn back into deep sleep. This happened for 3 days and last night I went back to my meditations where I feel awake within. So I would recommend going with the sleep and letting the sleep take care of the purification, the less you resist it, the sooner this phase will be over.
Also, I think Osho is waring against falling asleep every night saying the mantra.. "If you are using the mantra for sleep, then it is okay." If you use mantra to fall asleep, then you are training your body to fall asleep every time you start the mantra. In that case, "For those who use a mantra, sleep is the enemy -- and it so easily happens".. because you have trained yourself to sleep when you start the mantra. That is one reason Yogani says to keep the "i am" mantra only for meditation and not use it during the day or in this case to fall asleep. You can chant other mantras during the day or to fall asleep if you wish, but leave "i am" (or any other mantra you use in meditation) exclusively for the meditation time.
Also, Osho's words "be alert and listen to it also" is a technique that works for some, but it involves some kind of control, and may be good for people starting out. However, following the AYP technique of losing the mantra and then picking it up again helps with a few of things:
One teaches you to let go of control.. which is required in learning to surrender.. you cannot be controlling if you want to learn to let go/surrender to your ishta..
Second thing it teaches, is to access the gap.. the silence that is really us.. the point where you realize you are off the mantra and go back to the mantra you actually touch the silence. As you continue with meditation, this gap expands and you find you were lost in the silence.. between no mantra/no thought and mantra. This technique is taught by Osho too.. rather taught by the Vigyana Bhairava tantra, and Osho has his commentaries on this.. it just is taught as a separate technique with breath, however, it comes naturally, without any effort when you practice deep meditation as explained in AYP.
Third you have the vibrational qualities of the mantra purifying your nervous system as you meditate on it.
So as you sit for 20 min, twice a day.. saying "i am".. and letting every meditation take on a life of it's own... you are touching the gap and learning to lose control and purifying your nervous system.
You have been through so much Goddessinside, allow your silence to heal you, even if it is not how your mind thinks it should be.. just for a few days, let go the control, the analyzing, and let the silence do it's thing. |
Edited by - Shanti on Feb 14 2009 11:11:29 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 1:15:52 PM
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What is this "gap" you are speaking about? Explain it in words.
I am not surprised you still fall into sleep after 4 + years of meditation. Do you know why? Because i don't believe in this "purification" business at all. The reason you are falling into sleep and coming to back to the mantra is simply that you are falling asleep and coming back to the mantra. There is no mystery here. it isn't some purification process going on. It is what happens. And it happens to everyone that does this meditation, and will continue to happen to everyone that does this meditation for 4 years, 10 years, 20 years and 50 years. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 1:35:20 PM
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The gap is the silence between two thoughts or in breath and out breath.. I have talked about it (with Goddessinside) here and posted more info on it in this topic.
Gumpi, I would agree with you that after four years I still fall asleep because of a habit of falling asleep if it happened during every meditation.. however if it happens once a year or maybe once in 6-7 months.. it is not a habit.. it is purification.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 1:57:53 PM
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The "gap" you are speaking of sounds like some sort of numbness or something. However, you have described it as something that happens in between breathing in and out. In which case it is simply not true that thoughts stop in those instances, since anyone can hold their breath and expect not to think. That doesn't actually happen. Thoughts continue it is just that your attention is on the sensations produced as the stress of holding the breath.
It doesn't really matter much that you only fall into sleep rarely these days as compared to before. I still don't consider that to be a sign of purification. It just means you have more stress in your life in recent times. Whereas purification denotes that subconscious samskaras are being thrown into the conscious mind and dissolved there. And that simply doesn't happen.
I stand by what i said. Explain this gap. I think you will find that there is no such thing as awareness without thoughts at the same time. You would have to be cognizant somehow that you were in this "gap" which means it is a thought and not a thought free state. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 2:12:03 PM
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Hi gumpi
quote:
Explain this gap
The gap cannot be explained. It is a direct experience.
quote:
I think you will find that there is no such thing as awareness without thoughts at the same time
This is your direct experience, and it is very valid.
However - here it is directly experienced that there is awareness without thoughts at the same time.
No matter the words used......it is impossible to describe it. It is like tasting food....the menue is useless here...
To enjoy it, it must be tasted.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 2:17:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
What is this "gap" you are speaking about? Explain it in words.
I am not surprised you still fall into sleep after 4 + years of meditation. Do you know why? Because i don't believe in this "purification" business at all. The reason you are falling into sleep and coming to back to the mantra is simply that you are falling asleep and coming back to the mantra. There is no mystery here. it isn't some purification process going on. It is what happens. And it happens to everyone that does this meditation, and will continue to happen to everyone that does this meditation for 4 years, 10 years, 20 years and 50 years.
Are you sleep is such a black and white state ? It's certainly not that way from a scientific point of view. I cant vouch for the purification business, but there again what does that mean ?
I often put people into a hypnotic state, or should I say that I suggest it is possible to be in such a state. I can then get the person to deepen the state as far as a form of sleep. Anywhere within this state it is easy to give positive suggestions that will be accepted by the client on a subconscious level. Infact it can be done with someone who appears completely awake by inducing a simple trance state and using wording that contains suppositions.
In Time Line Therapy the client deletes the negative emotions around an event by using their hidden resources to simply understand the event and learn from it.
Dream states have a similar way of working having watched a recent Horizon programme that gave an idea of what might be going on.
So, whatever it is,awake, sleep, dream or trance. Somewhere within those you can alter ideas and emotions, maybe that is purification. Those states are changing all the time, slipping easily from one to another seamlessly. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 2:41:20 PM
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It's good to have a little healthy skepticism Gumpi.. better to experience stuff for yourself than take others words for it.
And I will agree with Katrine, the "gap" needs to be experienced.. cannot be explained.. the best explanation I can give is in that topic I quoted above.
Wish you all the best my friend. |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 3:16:06 PM
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Hi Shanti,
First, I missed you 
Second:
My concern from the beginning of this topic was not only sleep, but to what extent AYP DM can really, deeply bring transformation, on the long run, not only a "superficial" one.
And again, when I use the word "watch" or "being alert", that doesn't imply to be in control as you said. To be in control involves the mind, and creates tension which is of course a barrier to find inner silence and deep relaxation.
As you mentionned the similar approach during the gap between 2 breaths, yes, it's the same "watchfulness" without any tension I was talking about..
So, I don't understand why it should create a split in the mind?!
Anyway, as I always say, we can talk and talk again, words are limited..
Only experiencing will bring the fruits and the answers..
Thank you for your input Shanti..
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 3:28:45 PM
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One more attempt:
"to be aware/watchful/alert" when the mantra is uttered, means
"to be receptive/conscious" of what's going on..
but "to be conscious" is not "to be focused"..
Its like the watchfulness during the tantric sex act described in Vigyana Bhairava tantra. It's not about controlling, but exactly the opposite: to dissolve, to move in the life energy totally, without the mind being in control... BUT we remain receptive on a subtle level to the whole phenomenon.
Hope this is a bit clearer now! (it is, at least for me! ) |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 3:42:57 PM
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Hi Goddess,
quote:
My concern from the beginning of this topic was not only sleep, but to what extent AYP DM can really, deeply bring transformation, on the long run, not only a "superficial" one.
On this you can see karl's recent posts here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=5174
It seems to be working for him
Hope this helps! |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 4:43:37 PM
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Hi Goddesinside.. nice to know someone misses me..
I think you are right.. we are just playing around with words.. so go ahead and meditate as you understand the words watchful and alert to mean.. just stay open for your meditation to evolve as it does... which means.. if you find yourself doing the mantra.. but later the mantra starts doing you.. just go with it. Meditation will evolve so much over time... just go with the flow.
Also, like YIL said, if you have a moment do read Karl's post. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 5:15:43 PM
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"Concentration means you DELIBERATELY instigate a thought in your mind and stick to it. That is what concentration means. Your attention and awareness are focused on something with intent. . ."
meditation is a little different than concentration. You don't need the intent - no need to try hard.
"No, i don't accept the idea that meditation is day dreaming and then remembering the mantra every now and again. That will accomplish NOTHING. believe me, if that was meditation i would be Self Realised by now. "
That is not the method you should be practicing. No wonder there are no results after years of daydreaming. if you practice according to the lessons, occasionally you may drift into a daydreaming state and have to bring yourself back to remembering the mantra. But that is not the default state to initiate meditation.
If you meditate according to the lessons, there will be results. There are no promises of self-realization, siddhis, omniscience etc. But there will be something changed that is good for you personally.
it's a good idea to read the lessons over again once in a while, and make sure you are covering all the bases.
Then, it is rare, but some people will like other systems better.
After all, why would someone do the same thing for 20 years with no results? Read the lessons and try modifications.
i get results with only DM and SB.
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Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 15 2009 09:07:05 AM |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 06:09:44 AM
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Hi Shanti
I've read about Karl's experience..
Of course it's beautiful to hear that he felt like a clear turning point in his experience...
However, like you said, it's good to move further and not to get stuck in what is experienced, even if it's intense and fullfilling..
I have no doubts that this mantra meditation has many benefits..
(I felt it by myself!)
But when I talked about "deep transformation", I was talking on a larger scope.. on the basis of what Osho said..
Last thing, I'm reading a book from Swami Muktananda (Where are you going?) and he says that it's not the techniques that bring us to enlightenment. It's the "understanding"...
All the techniques are here to purify our system and create a favorable soil for the seed of consciousness to grow..
That's why many people work hard on a daily basis, doing many kriyas and they do not necessarily grow spiritually...
It's about the right attitude we have each moment, here and now.
That is soooo simple, yet not easy at all to attain!
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 06:31:05 AM
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Hi Godessinside
quote:
Last thing, I'm reading a book from Swami Muktananda (Where are you going?) and he says that it's not the techniques that bring us to enlightenment. It's the "understanding"...
Yes, I agree with this entirely. The understanding is what allows the mind to see through itself and not be caught by it's distortions, which result in suffering.
It is mind that creates everything in the dualistic universe and in order for mind to be experienced as love - in duality - it is completely necessary to have understanding.
Understanding and love are one and the same thing.
This is why inquiry is so important....inner silence, kundalini and other experiences are very limited without inquiry and understanding.
With enquiry and understanding we can occupy both non-duality and duality as one and the same space. To discover non-duality is fantastic and wonderful but then we have to integrate it with duality through understanding.
My 2 cents and a few other's 2 cents also |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 08:11:40 AM
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I wana share something with everybody:
whenever each one of you has the opportunity to be in nature,
go, sit and do your practices: they will simply be 10000000 times
more intense as you will gather much much prana from the sun, the air, and all the trees and plants..
I did DM this morning, in wild nature. I dropped about 5 times into sleep (not too deep),but very quickly got back to the mantra..
I really felt the difference between doing it outdoor and indoor:
you just feel nourrished by the prana around you and it cleanses in a deep way, supporting the meditation process.
So, try it if you didn't already, and enjoy!
PS: you can also just sit under a big tree, for about 30 minutes,
and receive its healing energy...it works miracles! |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 08:19:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Goddessinside
I wana share something with everybody:
whenever each one of you has the opportunity to be in nature,
go, sit and do your practices: they will simply be 10000000 times
more intense as you will gather much much prana from the sun, the air, and all the trees and plants..
I did DM this morning, in wild nature. I dropped about 5 times into sleep (not too deep),but very quickly got back to the mantra..
I really felt the difference between doing it outdoor and indoor:
you just feel nourrished by the prana around you and it cleanses in a deep way, supporting the meditation process.
So, try it if you didn't already, and enjoy!
PS: you can also just sit under a big tree, for about 30 minutes,
and receive its healing energy...it works miracles!
Thanks for that Goddessinside! |
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