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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 22 2009 : 12:36:25 PM
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Myself, I am not really a drinker. My 21st birthday was probably the least exciting. Sometimes if I am at a special holiday or event I will have a glass of wine or whatever to be polite and because it can be a nice treat if it makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
Since beginning yoga I have only drank to the point of intoxication twice, and I'm a lightweight so it's not very hard to do.
Last night was a real eye-opener. It was the second time in my two years of AYP that I drank. It was Saturday night, I just got off of work at 930pm and I was feeling a bit down like I usually do on the weekend because it's a weekend and I don't really have a social life and me and my girlfriend of 2 years broke up less than two months ago. So I figured rather than the usual routine of going home, doing sadhana, and going to bed...maybe I'd do something to really "treat" myself. I figured I would go home, light some candles and put on some nice lighting, snuggle up with the dog and watch a movie. And, I thought it was be neat to buy some wine to help me relax.
Everythings in place, I'm drinking a glass of hot rice-wine, watching The Wall (I know, bad choice...but I only have like 5 movies). I start feeling down. I remember the last time I drank wine to excess at the beach with my girlfriend and her family and how it ended poorly with me crying. The movie ends and I'm sitting there at 2am depressed. I decide to call her and I break down and cry and talk about how painful my life is for 2 hours. I apologize for every single thing I did wrong while we were together. I talk about how lonely I am now and how pathetic I am that I don't fit in anywhere with anyone and my only friend is my mom. Ect Ect. Hmmmm, reminds me a bit of my last wine experience. So we hang up eventually, I am catatonically depressed. I fell into a lapse of self-harm which I won't go into detail about and sit there talking softly to myself about how existentially there is no real fundamental pleasure to life, how it is as meaningless and empty as I always knew it was, how there is clearly as I've known since kindergarten, no benevolent allgood God in the world...how everything is clearly a projection of my faults and how tragic it is that I never really had a choice in the matter. I cursed all the teachings of "you make your own reality" (Tolle and the like) because when exactly did I do this? In day-care? Before I was born? That;s not exactly fair.
So that was the end to a great night, wasn't it?
Aftermath:
I woke up this morning feeling the heaviness of last nights crying fit...but emotionally I didn't feel very potent. I regretted my actions in calling my ex. I realized my mistake in seeking alcohol as a source of relaxation and pleasure.
I thought about Tolle's pain-body. That everyone carries around with them a sort of "body" of pain that seems to have it's own momentum and drive. It is always seeking an opportunity to assert itself. I can relate to that very much so. My pain body is massive and I can clearly trace it back to my earliest kindergarten memories, oddly enough. I can usually keep a cap on it with steady Yoga practice and it doesn't get a chance to fully assert itself usually. The funny and interesting thing is when I have used alcohol since beginning yoga. Before yoga, my life was centered around my emotions and pain. After a while with AYP it wasn't. It was centered around the senses, the mind, the spirit, the body. So during the two times I have used alchohol since AYP it is SO CLEAR the difference. The pain body gets a chance to really show itself! And the interesting thing is it doesn't really have anything new to say! It was the same monologue of cosmic tragedy that I've been saying since I was a preschooler. The same Me vs. Existence complex. And even now in the aftermath I am feeling better...the things I said during the experience arent necessarily all delusional. A lot of it I still resonate with unfortunately...but it stays where it belongs so to speak. It doesnt really interfere greatly with my life to the point that it did last night. It makes it seem that emotions are lower than the mind. That in working with the mind some progress can be made...but there is no working with those emotions, man.
Anyway, hope that story was interesting to someone.
I'd like to hear anyone else's experiences or opinions of alcohol, especially in reference to yoga.
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Edited by - anthony574 on Feb 22 2009 12:38:20 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2009 : 3:16:43 PM
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Hi Anthony.....
I love you man. This was heart-warmingly honest. Thank you.
Alcohol lowers inhibitions right? That's why you called your ex..haha. Wouldn't have done that if you were sober. But it also gives (some of) us an opportunity to look at exactly what we are keeping hidden under the calm exterior. Getting drunk (or high on hallucinogens and having a "bad trip") can bring up things we haven't dealt with in the past completely and are somehow subconsciously robbing us of happiness in our daily lives. I suggest that you take these "earliest kindergarten memories" to inquiry. Or at least allow them to come up at some point and just BE with them. Without attaching to them in any way. I'm really sorry you are having such a hard time these days. You will be in my thoughts and prayers.
Love,
Carson |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2009 : 9:31:53 PM
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Hi Anthony,
We have all been there at some point in our lives and been grabbed by our "pain-bodies" and watched helplessly as pent up emotional energy expresses itself through us, I know I certainly have. Alcohol can amplify such patterns causing previously dormant or in the background thoughts to become louder and play themselves out. The nice thing in this situation is that you recognized all of what was going on for what it was: simply emotionally charged thoughts, aka "the pain body" acting out and not your true Being. It seems from your account, that this experience has brought you greater clarity about the pain-body and your increased awareness of it will accelerate its undoing. Large amounts of energy can be dissipated by experiences like the one you describe and then once it has passed, we can enjoy greater peace.
All the best! |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2009 : 9:45:28 PM
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| Yes, i actually reread some Tolle and hopefully will be better aware of its appearance. |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2009 : 11:04:02 PM
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Hi Anthony574, were you drinking Japanese Sake by chance? You said hot rice wine, so I was curious. I don't know how much experience you have with Sake, but living in Japan I can tell you that quality makes a difference as to the effects and hangovers. I've had similar wild emotional#12288;responses after drinking cheap Sake or Korean Shoju over here. Like you I'm not much of a drinker, so maybe I feel it more than others with a higher tolerance level. Anyway, should the urge come up again to drink Sake always drink the stuff served cold. When they make hot Sake apparently quality doesn't matter much, but if it is served cold generally it is more expensive and a lot purer. This being said though, there are some nasty rot gut cold Sakes as well.
But it's probably best to avoid it if you can. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2009 : 07:42:51 AM
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Hi Anthony,
everyone experiences these things and you seem to know what you need to get things into some perspective. I'm interested in several things you have said......
I am confused to what it is you want to do on a weekend ? You seem unhappy with choosing to be alone ?
quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
I cursed all the teachings of "you make your own reality" (Tolle and the like) because when exactly did I do this? In day-care? Before I was born? That;s not exactly fair.
Our experiences support our behaviours. If you experience something, you learn something, you then go looking for evidence to fully support that particular learning. When you have enough evidence it becomes an integral part of your understanding and becomes your perception of the world.
Strangely I often have people who go back before birth when performing TLT. There is no way this can be confirmed of course, but it is left as a possibility for the client. The experiences can be either linked genetically (through the experiences of the family tree) or directly as a past life.
Using TLT combined with deep meditation and excersise can be used to remove negative emotions and unhelpful beliefs that build up.
quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
My pain body is massive and I can clearly trace it back to my earliest kindergarten memories, oddly enough.
That might be the first point......often it is not. I have had several clients who thought they knew exactly when something started, only to find it was much earlier.
Most of our negative emotions happen before we are 3 years old ! Quite a lot in the womb when the mother passes on experiences to the baby, some during the birth and the rest in another generation.
The negative emotions and experiences are virtually all built around this time. For instance you would feel, anger, guilt, sadness and hurt. They can often be over some insignificant thing, but stay with you as the very first root and get reinforced as we grow.
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2009 : 6:14:55 PM
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I have never liked drinking and I think it is exactly for the reason you state---bringing out the pain body. I remember everything unpleasant that has happened to me and am unwilling to let go. Yet what is the result: suffering and attempts to bring more people into my created drama. I think drinking breaks down the the walls I build to keep all my feelings at bay; this breakdown could be positive, but it's in an unbalanced way so brings out negativity instead of my true self.
The last time I felt this way, I was suffering so much. So I went deep into myself, AYP-style, and thought, "What do I really want?" Just to love. So I knew the pain body held no truth for me. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 08:59:47 AM
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Yes, the breakdown can have some positives...but it is a very risky process and unmanaged. Since then I have had a few more emotional breakdowns very similar to that one without achohol. It leaves me feeling like there is no point to life because it only seems to bring pain and feelings of alienation. And if I made my own reality around the age of 3 or in the womb...you know what, thats not fair. So it leaves me to look at spiritual practice as a way of transcending pain...not as achieving some metaphysical enlightenment that is apparently beyond my comprehension. It leaves me feeling there is no God in the sense that there is some other force to unload my pain onto. So I realize that all there really is to life is to simply try to transcend pain...or at least the painfulness of pain. Very Buddhist. And in those dark times even though I feel horrible, that realization of the pointlessness of life feels liberating. I realized that all the purpose of life is whatever one puts to it.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 12:36:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
if I made my own reality around the age of 3 or in the womb...you know what, thats not fair.
So what is it you do want instead ?
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 10:40:00 PM
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| I want to experience reality as I believe it is possible to be percieved - purely, without the dulling of the incessant chatter and judging of the mind. I also want freedom from attachment to pain. |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2009 : 06:06:59 AM
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quote:
I want to experience reality as I believe it is possible to be percieved - purely, without the dulling of the incessant chatter and judging of the mind. I also want freedom from attachment to pain.
From the things you say and the way you say them, I am assured you will have both some day. Patience is key, and so is taking things one day at a time. It will not happen today or tomorrow, but rest assured it will.
The pain is not your fault - you did not create it. This is a fallacious and poorly conceived notion of certain so-called thinkers. The pain existed before you were born, and stretches back for generations. You are its most recent inheritor, as we are each of our own portion of pain. But it sounds to me like you are fairly unique among us humans insofar as you (along with many of the members of this board) are attempting to stand up to the pain. Not many of us do. Most of us stuff it down and then pass it along to others - not purposefully and rarely consciously, but pass it along nevertheless we do. That is why you have the pain today.
So what to do? As I said, it takes time to deal with it. Don't stuff it. But please don't play tricks with it like cutting yourself or other types of self-harm. The pain LOVES that. Please promise no more self-harm. I know, I sound like some parent or something, but believe me it hurts me to hear of that, and I care too much (even though, I know, I'm just some abstract entity in cyberspace) to know that you might continue with that. (By the way, if you were merely talking about masturbation, then forget my words because that's not self-harm.)
Something that helped me once upon a time was to find wide-open spaces, empty of people, to really just let the pain out: face it and see what it's made of and how much of it there is and how deep it really goes. I know it's hard to find places like that - an apartment in a city isn't quite the place I have in mind. I once sat by the ocean at night during a storm and just let the strong wind take it away. That kind of thing.
Another possibility is finding someone you can really trust to talk it out with, but I know that's very difficult to find. About the best we have on hand are called psychotherapists and you pay them a fee - but I'm not talking about that. A real friend, who maybe has their own portion of pain they're dealing with. Very hard to find, I know. But the give and take of listening and talking - sharing your strategies for dealing with and facing up to and eventually defusing the pain - can be quite healing.
Some of the things I know from personal experience that don't work:
-- sharing with random people you meet, even if they seem like caring types. Very very few will want to deal with your pain and they often don't know how to anyways, since they aren't professionals, or true friends.
-- sharing with (especially, getting emotional around) people who have rejected you in the past. That seems obvious, but when it comes to past girlfriends, one thinks there might always be a chance. It's best in that case to look forward and not back.
-- drugs, alcohol, etc. (but you know that already) 
A lot of meditation practices and much of the conceptualizations around those practices are, in my view, suspect (and I say this as a 30+ year practitioner). They can serve to numb or distract us from the pain, but not actually release or deal with it (I've known many suppressed and pain-filled individuals who have dedicated themselves to decades of misinformed practice). I notice from your other posts that you have a natural inclination towards skepticism. Bravo! Keep that! It will serve you well in sorting out the fraudulent from the necessary and true, even if at the same time it seems like such a hassle to always hear that skeptical voice in your head...
In the end, you are your own best teacher. Any teacher worth their salt will confirm this and encourage you in your continued explorations of that outlook/inlook upon Totality which is so uniquely yours.
I have great faith in you! You're doing great, even if it feels deeply sh*tty at times...
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2009 : 07:00:09 AM
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Hi Peter
Welcome to the forum
And thanks for that encouraging and well expressed post.
Hi Anthony
I agree with Peter.
Your courage is great, your stamina even greater and the intensity with which you desire perception of reality as it is - and not as we think it to be - is itself the power that will lead to non-attachment from any object of perception - be it pain or anything else.
To never rest satisfied with anything but what is Real - the doubt becomes an ally this way - it will make sure you do not settle for anything but the direct experience of Reality. And this unfolding is in itself both purposeless (no particular purpose) and at the same time pure meanignfullness.
quote:
I'd like to hear anyone else's experiences or opinions of alcohol, especially in reference to yoga.
I was never a big drinker
But up until about 6 years ago, there would be an occational glass of wine....or bear. Then it simply stopped of itself....I just topped liking it......or rather the effect of it. And after the rising of Kundalini in the shushumna, alcohol is perceived to be as poison here.......
The only exception was a glass of Guiness that I drank in Dublin last summer I couldn't forget the taste of it, see.....when I worked as a music teacher at the British School in Oslo 2o-some years ago....we once took 10 students on a trip to England, Scotland and Wales.....and I developped a taste for Guiness there ...........and hadn't tasted it since then
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2009 : 11:43:34 AM
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I just want to say that your post Peter was awesome. Some of the best advice on this topic I have ever read. WELCOME TO THE FORUM! Please stick around!
I hope you follow up with some of what Peter has said Anthony....
And don't be afraid to continue to use the forum as an outlet....as a way to let go, as a way to feel the love of others, as a way of connecting with people who care for you, feel the same as you and wish the best for you. This too shall pass and we will be here for you before, during and after it does. We all love you.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2009 : 3:11:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
I want to experience reality as I believe it is possible to be percieved - purely, without the dulling of the incessant chatter and judging of the mind. I also want freedom from attachment to pain.
Wow.....thats exactly what I want. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2009 : 8:13:15 PM
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Peter, thank you very much for your post. It was very heartfelt. This forum is the closest thing I have to that someone to share with. I don't like to burden my mother with these feelings because I want her to know that I am happy, too. And you are spot-on about not running to people of the past. You seem like you know of these things first-hand.
Thanks everyone for your help and love. It means so much to me as a solo spiritual adventurer to have a community like this. And even though, as Peter said, you guys are quite abstract and cyber...the feeling still comes through :-) |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2009 : 09:58:33 AM
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Anthony,
Great post, funny and with the courage and spirit to talk about yourself openly. I was driven to the brink of sanity by pain body, but have now transmuted it, and feel like much of my pain record has been erased.
FYI - You need to read "THE PRESENCE PROCESS" by Michael Brown. This is the only book in the world, that I know of, that gives you the tools to neutralize your own pain body.
The book is a journey that takes you right into the heart of your pain and neutralizes it. It's perhaps the most challenging, difficult and life transforming thing I've ever done, completely changing your whole perspective on spirituality and life.
It is the most powerful tool I know of for working with your Pain Body. I hope I'm not gushing too much! The change in my life has been so powerful though.
I've also written a document which I want to freely distribute to raise pain body awareness, and bring it into the light of consciousness. It may help bring a little insight, if you want me to send it to you, please let me know.
Best wishes,
Josh
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2009 : 09:50:14 AM
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Hi Anthony,
quote:
Posted by Peter:
A lot of meditation practices and much of the conceptualizations around those practices are, in my view, suspect (and I say this as a 30+ year practitioner). They can serve to numb or distract us from the pain, but not actually release or deal with it
These days and years, this seems to be a dawning realization among many. As genius and amazing Buddhist and Yogic techniques may be, and they surely are, in precise mapping of the very distant spiritual realms, and navigating seekers through the high and highest stages of the quest for enlightenment, they seem to fail in healing the more down-to-earth parts of our psyche. They seem to offer transcending of pain , but not healing of wounds. As Ken Wilber often likes to point out, this is the unique contribution of western psycho-therapeutic methods. Nowadays they offer actual release-healing of the wounded psyche. Anthony, you live in the U.S., why don't you go for one of the modern psycho-therapeutic programs? It works so well in combination with spiritual practice. And it addresses those "basic" (mostly biographical to perinatal) levels of the psyche, spiritual practices just fail to reach and heal.
It's such a luxurious possibility for us westerners! I decided more then three years ago to engage in an In-Depth Experiential Therapy, and I know today, that it was a wise choice.
quote:
And if I made my own reality around the age of 3 or in the womb...you know what, thats not fair.
I think it's perfectly fair. There are methods out there, which offer us the possibility to fully re-experience the traumatic moments today, with all your present power, experience and knowledge, re-integrate them, and thus genuinely heal the wounds they created. I've witnessed people consciously re-experiencing their own traumatic births, or even traumatic episodes from their prenatal life - like fetal alcohol intoxication, abortion attempts, and the like. We can work on those wounds, or even take action proactively.
If you feel you are interested in current psycho-therapeutic approaches, you can start here. It's a good one:
http://www.amazon.com/Psychology-Fu...p/0791446220
Or contact me for details, if you feel like it.
Good luck !
Roman |
Edited by - mimirom on Feb 28 2009 10:19:24 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2009 : 05:23:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Hi Anthony,
quote:
Posted by Peter:
A lot of meditation practices and much of the conceptualizations around those practices are, in my view, suspect (and I say this as a 30+ year practitioner). They can serve to numb or distract us from the pain, but not actually release or deal with it
These days and years, this seems to be a dawning realization among many. As genius and amazing Buddhist and Yogic techniques may be, and they surely are, in precise mapping of the very distant spiritual realms, and navigating seekers through the high and highest stages of the quest for enlightenment, they seem to fail in healing the more down-to-earth parts of our psyche. They seem to offer transcending of pain , but not healing of wounds. As Ken Wilber often likes to point out, this is the unique contribution of western psycho-therapeutic methods. Nowadays they offer actual release-healing of the wounded psyche. Anthony, you live in the U.S., why don't you go for one of the modern psycho-therapeutic programs? It works so well in combination with spiritual practice. And it addresses those "basic" (mostly biographical to perinatal) levels of the psyche, spiritual practices just fail to reach and heal.
It's such a luxurious possibility for us westerners! I decided more then three years ago to engage in an In-Depth Experiential Therapy, and I know today, that it was a wise choice.
quote:
And if I made my own reality around the age of 3 or in the womb...you know what, thats not fair.
I think it's perfectly fair. There are methods out there, which offer us the possibility to fully re-experience the traumatic moments today, with all your present power, experience and knowledge, re-integrate them, and thus genuinely heal the wounds they created. I've witnessed people consciously re-experiencing their own traumatic births, or even traumatic episodes from their prenatal life - like fetal alcohol intoxication, abortion attempts, and the like. We can work on those wounds, or even take action proactively.
If you feel you are interested in current psycho-therapeutic approaches, you can start here. It's a good one:
http://www.amazon.com/Psychology-Fu...p/0791446220
Or contact me for details, if you feel like it.
Good luck !
Roman
I agree with your summing up, however there is no need to re-experience the trauma of events in that way anymore. It is just unpleasant, slow and painful. TLT does exactly the same and accomplishes in minutes what used to take weeks of therapy to complete. However I am interested in the concept you propose as anything that moves towards the provision of 'freedom of choice' for a person should be examined, contrasted and compared to other methods to see if there are lessons to be learned.
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2009 : 09:37:25 AM
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Hi Karl,
what do you mean by TLT? Could you specify, please?
quote:
It is just unpleasant, slow and painful.
Well, I am suggesting what works best for me.
I must admit that I encountered a young Ukrainian girl, for example, who suffered complicated post-traumatic states, related apparently to her prenatal and early postnatal experiences. The therapeutic process, which I'm involved in too, took her many times spontaneously back into the womb, exposing her to an emotionally painful experience, without producing significant relief.
On the other hand, I personally, for example, have been taken by the same process through three years of continuous, rapid healing. I can say, that the amount of healing and purification reached several times the maximum limit, that I (and people around me) could tolerate. It didn't involve only simple regression to single traumatic events, but uncovered rather entire strings, or systems of condensed experience, which conditioned my perception. These were often spread through multiple dimensions - biographical-past life-perinatal-transpersonal/divine, for example. The healing potential here is great.
Roman |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2009 : 11:32:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Hi Karl,
what do you mean by TLT? Could you specify, please?
quote:
It is just unpleasant, slow and painful.
Well, I am suggesting what works best for me.
I must admit that I encountered a young Ukrainian girl, for example, who suffered complicated post-traumatic states, related apparently to her prenatal and early postnatal experiences. The therapeutic process, which I'm involved in too, took her many times spontaneously back into the womb, exposing her to an emotionally painful experience, without producing significant relief.
On the other hand, I personally, for example, have been taken by the same process through three years of continuous, rapid healing. I can say, that the amount of healing and purification reached several times the maximum limit, that I (and people around me) could tolerate. It didn't involve only simple regression to single traumatic events, but uncovered rather entire strings, or systems of condensed experience, which conditioned my perception. These were often spread through multiple dimensions - biographical-past life-perinatal-transpersonal/divine, for example. The healing potential here is great.
Roman
Time Line Therapy. http://www.timelinetherapy.net/
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2009 : 05:53:58 AM
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Karl - have you done Time Line Therapy?
Very interested to hear what your results were/ how effective you found it?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2009 : 1:23:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
Karl - have you done Time Line Therapy?
Very interested to hear what your results were/ how effective you found it?
Im a practising therapist, so yes, many times. On myself and clients. I use it routinely on myself these days and it's great combined with deep meditation.
It's extremely effective. I understand the theories behind the technique but have no idea why it does what it does.
During my training I was working with a fellow student and reading the script as I went along. One of the coaches tapped me on the shoulder and asked if I had noticed anything going on with the client........I was horrified to notice that he was beginning to show signs of extreme panic and stress and needed a bit of help from the coach to get things going in the right direction.
Up to that point I had not considered it would be such a poweful tool. Now I use it all the time and find it 100% successful. |
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sushman
India
86 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2009 : 1:47:53 PM
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| Karl, I live in India. How does this method work? |
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Gettin tipsy with the pain body *Downer alert!*
