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Chard
250 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 25 2017 : 01:44:52 AM
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Not sure where to post this... but I've been wondering about this and would love to hear what you all have to say about this...
So I'm a psychotherapist and tonight I happen to have seen new client (already seeing clients after just moving!) diagnosed with Schizoaffective Disorder, which is known as severe diagnosis which is combo of Schizophrenia and Mood Disorder symptoms. She was saying that when not medicated she would hear a man's voice telling her negative things about herself or her family. Then she said she once saw a beautiful angel.
I've come to realize that there is a such a fine line between sanity and insanity and to be honest I don't even know what sanity is... perhaps I'm not sane myself... and actually who really cares! I've had no history of mental illness aside from food addiction, yet I know if I were to tell certain people some paranormal experiences I've had they would think I need meds! I think I've just learned to know my audience though and who you can tell what to!! lol!
So I wanted to hear your thoughts on mental illness like Schizophrenia... do you see it merely as mental illness or a human being with psychic abilities more connected to the ethereal world? This is an interesting article on Shamanism and Mental Illlness:
http://www.jaysongaddis.com/the-sha...tal-illness/
It's interesting of course that meds suppress these types of experiences. Should we be suppressing these experiences or be doing energy work around this? I know this client would not be open to a non-traditional approach but it's still a good topic I'd love to hear your thoughts on...  C
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2017 : 07:30:49 AM
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Hi Chard 
Thanks for opening up this topic. It is a very interesting topic!
I'm Yonatan, and I've been doing ayp for around 9 years. I have also been diagnosed with mental illness since around 15 years. My most recent psychiatrist diagnosed me with schizophrenia although I don't agree with this. I believe I have OCD and used to have social anxiety (and meditation and spirituality helped me a lot with it).
Anyway, I have never heard voices or seen "unreal" things, but have seen things in my third eye sight (mind's eye) and dabbled in channeling (which I think is the reason the psychiatrist thought I have schizo). And sometimes had amazing spiritual things happen including constant kundalini ecstatic flow and divine dreams.
I think it may be that people who experience otherworldly things and labeled schizophrenic are just more psychically open or sensitive and I will even go a longer way and say that there are astral beings who take advantage of that (darker beings) thus making it a harder life for the sensitive souls. And I do think that in cases like these, the label is less important than the way the person is treated. And sometimes medication is needed exactly because it makes the person less sensitive, and puts an energetic "wall" around them. The woman you are talking about is very interesting because she experiences both sides of the energy spectrum, the lighter and the darker, so who knows, she may have really seen an angel and she may really experience a dark being manipulating her.. really who knows. This world can be very rigid in its way of thinking and anything someone experiences outside the "norm" is many times considered weird, or is judged harshly in many ways. And it is not only with mental illness. Also with things like sexuality, I mean look how people used to treat transgenders and gays (which in the past were labeled mental illness as well). But as I see it the world is becoming more tolerant and accepting of these things because its vibration is rising and there is more understanding around these topics. A psychic told me that the beings that he converses with say that "there is so much that we don't know yet about mental illness. And in the future it will be looked at in a very different way" and I believe that's true
Anyway that's what I had on my mind. Sorry if it's long
Much love!! I can see that a person like you who is sensitive to this topic and experienced spiritual experiences can bring a definite kind of fresh air to the profession. Go go go!! And much good vibes and success and fortune :D
Yonatan |
Edited by - Yonatan on Aug 25 2017 07:45:09 AM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2017 : 07:36:17 AM
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Oh yeah and I also wanted to add that I believe that anything that helps the situation is good. Sometimes both spiritual practices and medication are the right path! I believe that if the person experiences negative things that mess with their ability to live a good life, then this is a problem which is a good idea that it would be treated, no matter if they are labeled schizophrenics or overly psychic.. yes? I think the labels sometimes just do more harm than good, our rigid ways of thinking
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Chard
250 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2017 : 2:29:31 PM
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Awesome response Yonatan! I totally agree with everything you said...yes the rigidity that our society has when in reality there are so many fine lines. I also agree that action needs to be taken when it impedes functioning. Of everyday life.
Interestingly, you mentioned the rigidity around sexuality and society...This client raised issue of gender issues and sexuality mentioning she is considers herself pansexual/gender fluid. She mentioned how she does not see the walls of gender. I was thinking, "wow, she gets it!" So we were discussing how people all are made up of varying degrees or a balance of masculine and feminine polarities within themselves.
I think as we evolve as humans we start to overlook traditional gender/sexual orientation walls that society creates. I often think of myself as both genders and ageless as well as others I know to varying degrees... another interesting topic deserving its own thread!!
Thx Yonatan!! C |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2017 : 5:28:36 PM
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| Your client is likely sensitive. She may need a second party to think the negative thoughts which is okay( a voice outside of her). It's likely a protection mechanism. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2017 : 5:01:09 PM
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Hi everyone
I don't think there is one straightforward answer to this.
On one hand...
There can be a problem there. We are all prisoners to the contents of our minds till enlightenment begins to dawn, but in genuine psychiatric patients this seems to go to an extreme. It's like enormous pressure has built up in a closed space and it pushes its way to the surface via hallucinations, extreme emotions or hyperactivity to the point of violence.
On the other hand...
There is a lot of misdiagnosis in psychiatry. I remember one experiment (sorry, I can't remember the name of the researcher - too long ago - I think he was american). He only faked a psychiatric condition once, up to the point where he got a diagnostic. From then on he acted normal. But once he was labelled, he found it impossible to get out of the system. None of the psychiatrists who saw him from then on realised there was in fact nothing wrong with him.
And I have to say I sympathise with the psychiatrists too. Sometimes they are in very tricky situations. Picture this: Somebody is brought in by very worried relatives after a suicide attempt. Imagine you let that patient go without a diagnostic and without medication. He attempts suicide again and this time he is successful. This of the sort of position in which a psychiatrist can find himself/herself. I remember a suicidal patient that was almost impossible to diagnose. I was a student, doing practice on a psychiatric ward and the doctor who was running our seminar pushed us (the group of students) really hard to come up with a diagnostic. There were just shades of symptoms - something that could have been a bit of a delusion, perhaps a depressive episode that occurred in the past (the patient was not depressed at the time). And we were going round in circles because there wasn't anything obvious to put your finger on. When we ran out of questions to ask, the doctor said to us: "Now everyone writes down on your notebooks the diagnostic you would give to this patient." And she came looking over our shoulders to see what we wrote. At that moment this thought came to me in a flash "She's doing it because she's uncertain herself. She is looking for something like a vote on the possible diagnostics that we were running through". I didn't write anything on my notepad. But you know what? I had the luxury of saying "I don't know". The doctor did not have that option. OK, maybe she'd consult with somebody more senior and split the responsibility. But she could not send that patient back home with a "I don't know why you attempted suicide" conclusion.
So it's a bit of a complicated topic to say the least. I suspect most people feel that the whole approach to mental illness in the West can do with an overhaul, but what a better system would look like is a tough question. It's never just the patients. It's about all the people around them who have to be kept safe, their distress managed etc.
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Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Aug 26 2017 5:31:40 PM |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2017 : 07:38:48 AM
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Hi BlueRaincoat,
The experiment you mention was conducted by David Rosenhan, a psychology professor at Stamford University. He and some of his graduate students were admitted to different hospitals, after reporting auditory hallucinations (hearing a voice). Once in the hospital, they said that their hallucinations were gone, and showed no other symptoms. They all were diagnosed with schizophrenia, forced to take antipsychotic medication, and released after spending in average 19 days in the hospital.
While this experiment questioned the validity of psychiatric diagnostics, mental illness is real, and millions of people struggle with it. Part of the problem might be the fact that we do not really understand our psyche – or who we really are. Even for the people without a mental illness, abusing the physiology by ingesting harmful substances (like soft drinks, processed foods, etc), and abusing the mind by ingesting hours of pointless TV and video programs have a detrimental effect on our psyche. What we do impacts how we function, and we have a choice – e.g. we can meditate or watch TV.
As you mentioned, our approach to mental illness needs an overhaul, and I hope that coming years bring a new paradigm for understanding and managing mental illness.
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2017 : 8:15:16 PM
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| I worked in several group homes for about four years. There are some people that just aren't there. Some are dangerous. Some are there(here), but they can not function in our society. |
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2017 : 5:57:05 PM
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This is a good question, and has no easy answer. (good post by BlueRaincoat also).
I have the diagnosis of schizophrenia, even if I am not having much symptoms anymore. I am not even sure if I would qualify as schizophrenic if they would "try me" for a diagnosis again... Anyways, medicine and psychiatry is here to support people with mental illnesses (with brain not functioning normally so to speak), and is not supposed to block or shut people down. I don't even think medicine works that way, shutting you down... My medicin for example, balances the level of dopamine in my brain... This does not sound as something that would shut me down spirituality, more create a brain that functions "normally", or "as it should".
I am no expert, but I think we need both spirituality and psychiatry and that both could work together in balance... :) |
Edited by - colours on Aug 28 2017 6:26:13 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2017 : 09:56:35 AM
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Thank you Blanche.
19 days is a pretty long time, but if the 'patients' said the voices were gone after they were started on neuroleptics, the doctors simply had the confirmation that the treatment worked, didn't they?! Not a surprising outcome of the experiment.
@colours
It's good to hear the treatment worked for you. You often hear about patients hating the drugs they are given, but in your case it sounds like a happy ending.
Best wishes to everyone, with or without experience of psychiatry. We all have our mental challenges 
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2017 : 7:28:41 PM
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Blue: I would say that hating your medicine mostly comes from lack of knowledge and/or insight. Don't you agree?
/colours |
Edited by - colours on Aug 30 2017 7:30:03 PM |
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Chard
250 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2017 : 01:14:23 AM
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| Great points all!! Thank u for your responses!! Much love all! |
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Nirguna
Australia
57 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2017 : 01:39:27 AM
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Hi everyone.
It really depends on the context also. Your patient in rural Mongolia would be seen as gifted and quite possibly be assigned into the community vital role of a shamaness.
You do not want to tell anyone in "western" society that you hear voices or see things. It is pathology, suffering, and needs to be treated. In shamanic context, it is gift and it should be cultivated.
What would modern psychotherapy think of a modern day Buddha, Jesus or Muhammad???
We all know their diagnosis.
Schizophrenia. |
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Chard
250 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2017 : 9:53:47 PM
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| Great points Nirguna! Thx for sharing! |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2024 : 8:05:05 PM
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Hi all
I was asked this question few days ago by friends, I was curious if ayp had any discussion on it
I come from a family that has 3 schizophrenic cases on my mother side...my mum was mildly schizophrenic, she had a flat face and never showed emotions, she was slow in daily life, slow in thinking...she ended up with vascular dementia in her 60s...many schizophrenic people get dementia when they age...so the hallucinations reappear in old age
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So schizophrenia does not get better with age
Some people have less what is called positive symptoms...yet the negative symptoms of schizophrenia will always be there and these are destructive enough
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My maternal aunt had extreme schizophrenic
My maternal uncle had mild schizophrenia like my mum
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Soooo during all the years of yoga practice, I always took the so called spiritual visions with a grain of salt
Now I totally label hearing voices and seeing saints etc as psychotic..there is nothing spiritual about these experiences
Some psychotic cases can get better with yoga and some don't
Those who do not have mental issues history in their house don't understand this topic enough....they say well ignore the scenery
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Psychiatrists do make wrong diagnosis but when one has such a serious diagnosis, I am sure his family will seek more than one medical opinion
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Some people have one psychotic episode in their life and that is it,and some stay psychotic all their lives
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That does not mean that the first group conquered their mind or healed themselves
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Edited by - maheswari on Sep 10 2024 9:50:20 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2024 : 05:00:53 AM
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| Thanks for sharing I hope you are doing well and continuing your practice, if that serves you |
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Michel_On_AYP
Canada
1 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2024 : 12:05:01 AM
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Hi everyone,
Wow, what an interesting and complex topic! As someone who's practiced meditation for a few years, I've often wondered about the line between spiritual experiences and mental health issues.
@Chard - Thanks for bringing this up. It's a really thought-provoking question, especially for those of us in the helping professions.
@Yonatan - Your perspective as someone with personal experience is really valuable. I agree that labels can sometimes do more harm than good.
@BlueRaincoat - Great points about the challenges faced by mental health professionals. It's definitely not a black and white issue.
@maheswari - Thank you for sharing your family history. It's a powerful reminder that these conditions have real impacts on people's lives.
I think there's definitely room for both spiritual and medical approaches here. Maybe the key is finding the right balance for each individual?
What do you all think about integrating traditional mental health treatment with more holistic or spiritual practices? Has anyone had experience with this kind of combined approach?
Just my two cents, but I feel like we're only scratching the surface of understanding the human mind and consciousness. Who knows what breakthroughs might come in the future?
Thanks again for such a thoughtful discussion! |
Edited by - Michel_On_AYP on Sep 15 2024 4:28:10 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2024 : 11:21:38 AM
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Hi all
Some people with mental issues ( the full spectrum from neurosis to psychosis )benefit from yoga practice some get worse
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That is why when a depressive person ( no hallucinations) comes to a yoga teacher...a good yoga teacher will tell him to avoid yoga practices and see professional help ( from seeing a psychologist or a psychiatrist)....cause yoga digs in the unconscious so more issues will surface with depressive person...so can you imagine what will surface if the person is hallucinations too?
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Everything is so relative in these cases....if we take someone who has ocd he might benefit for a medicine...whereas another person with ocd will not benefit from the same medicine...so medicine for the same issue don't help people with the same diagnosis...cause each one is different
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Same for diabetes, some person will benefit from one medicine and the other will not
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I have very conservative view about hallucinations...all are mind stuff...none of it is real...it is all psychotic
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Overload can lead to psychotic episodes ..overload can be the Pandora box if opened and we ignore cutting down practices,there will be no return
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Spiritual psychosis is real from Joanne of Arc to everyone else
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Some practioners are already psychotic and come to yoga and falsely believe oh they are spiritual
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So if someone says he just had an OBE but he was living a very threatful thing in his life....I would say this a psychotic thing...imagining things to escape from reality....it is not spiritual...it is not real
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Godslave
Canada
113 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2024 : 4:31:55 PM
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Hi all,
This is a topic that is really close to me. I also have been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, about 20 years ago. They said mine started as depression, got really bad, then the difficulty thinking, delusions, and hallucinations started.
During the time that my symptoms were worst, I had a "spiritual rebirth" experience, in which a voice inside my mind spoke to me, encouragingly. This was followed by doing some "conscious dreaming" dream journalling, which also included encouraging words. But those words were about a spiritual quest that I was on, and that everything would work out.
I've been on medication and stable for about 20 years now. I've been interested in yoga for more than 20 years, but it was hard going until I found AYP, maybe 10 years ago now. I always had a lot of tension in my body, and the AYP practices combined with my previous yoga experiences really helped with that.
I have noticed that as I gradually released more and more tight muscles in my body, some traumatic memories and experiences came out, and I had to ride the waves of that. With more experience with this process, I've been able to just ignore/drop more of them; this is partly due to learning to "let go" of attachments/sensations/thoughts, and Deep Meditation has helped with that.
I'm at a point now where, I'm guessing, I'm getting to the end of the tension releasing. I'm currently working on muscles in my head, near my brow and eyes, which are connected to neck, shoulder, and pelvis muscles. They seem to be connected through the nerves. And, when I unlock the tension in the muscles, the nerves get unlocked too; the result is that I feel more sensations, and feel more alive. Also, I have less problems with trouble speaking (tight throat/jaw) or headaches, as a result of the yoga and unlocking.
I also was raised as a Christian, but ever since my "spiritual rebirth" experience I've been questioning that. I was moving more toward believing in just the spiritual, not religious. But in 2020 I began thinking more critically and rationally, and skeptically. I realized that religion can't be proven. I realized that I was taught to believe in one god out of thousands in the world. I realized it's just a story, not an infallible one. So that's when I concluded that there's not enough evidence for me to believe in any gods. This was a huge relief for me.
I think that being raised to believe in the spiritual realm made it much harder for me to understand what was happening to me, when I was in the worst of the illness. I interpreted some of the experiences as a spiritual quest. I now think that all that exists is part of the physical realm. I don't think there is a separate invisible spiritual realm, so my conclusion is that spiritual experiences are all happening inside the person's brain and/or body (nervous system). This explains, for me, why there are so many different experiences of the spiritual, and everyone seems to have their own take on it and ideas about it. There's no objective spiritual reality; it's all projected by each individual's mind, or happening inside the individual's mind.
Anyway, AYP has been really helpful for me in relieving a lot of the lingering symptoms of my illness. I really think it's helping me be more fully alive and healthy in life. I also find it amazing that there are so many muscles throughout the body that affect the nervous system so much, and this makes a huge difference in how the person experiences themselves and the world. This has a lot to do with the autonomic nervous system (sympathetic and parasympathetic), which Yoga seems to work on a lot. But the effects I've been able to make on my nervous system through the AYP practices, and my own practices, has been hugely positive in my experience of life. It's kept me going and helped me survive the lowest times since my diagnosis. I've been low and had questions and thoughts, but I haven't relapsed because I haven't stopped taking my medications. I've also intentionally questioned my beliefs to see if they are rational, and stopped trying to have a spiritual quest to find out more about the invisible spiritual/magical side of life (which I have concluded is fictional).
I still wonder how much of the illness was/is from the tensions in my body. I wonder how much that affected my brain. I know the medication is necessary. I don't know if someday it will no longer be necessary, but changing it after being stable so long seems like an unreasonable risk for me to take. For now, it's day to day for me, but most days are good.
The part that I miss from the spiritual experiences is the sense of calling and quest, going towards something higher. I still miss that, and I think about it most days. My life is ordinary, and I miss how that quest made me feel extraordinary.
Any thoughts? |
Edited by - Godslave on Sep 17 2024 4:47:08 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2024 : 8:13:03 PM
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Hi Godslave
I enjoyed reading your post and i find it refreshingly grounded and practical
You are using your common sense and I agree with all what you said
I am happy for you that you are able to navigate through it all...you should be very proud of yourself...very few people with psychosis can do that , but you did!
Stay well
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Edited by - maheswari on Sep 17 2024 8:13:57 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2024 : 8:20:52 PM
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One more thing Godslave
Life is very ordinary once there is a solid maturity due to introspection and the yoga practices
That happens to all of us
The fireworks are left behind too...they are scenery too
You are doing great! |
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Godslave
Canada
113 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2024 : 9:33:18 PM
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| Thanks so much for your encouraging comments, maheswari! |
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Dogboy
USA
2293 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2024 : 02:55:25 AM
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Very inspirational Godslave, good to hear from you again. I came from a Catholic upbringing, and by high school knew the true redemption was not whispering confessions to a priest in a closet. It took many years of living, and then AYP, to confirm that I am the church. I have reached a state where I can commune with Source simply but being quiet and open enough. No past Catholic experience has filled me in such a complete way.
You have come so far in spite of your challenge. Good for you for staying curious and trusting in yourself. I have true healing experiences attributed to my disciplined practice, physically, mentally, and emotionally. Every day I feel is an opportunity for betterment. |
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Godslave
Canada
113 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2024 : 3:26:33 PM
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| Good to hear from you, Dogboy :) |
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Mental Illness diagnoses and spiritual life
