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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
 Posted - May 22 2011 : 1:41:48 PM
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Thinking about the lameness caused by money and suddenly got the idea to search money free existence on google, this wiki article came up, which ironically is being proposed to be removed, thought we'd copy it to preserve it here, heres to life with real virtues, overcoming the false delusions of the rather bizarre cult which has become our society at large.
Money-free economy is term that was used in 1960s[1] but has only recently come into large scale existence. The idea of a money-free economy has been criticized as being utopian, though as the requirements for it are beginning to be met, it is looking more like a possibility.[citation needed]
Contents
[hide]
1 Requirements
2 Consequences
3 See also
4 References
[edit] Requirements
Communication technology and computers in particular have been important in creating an environment suitable for a money-free economy. The cost of copying and sharing information is extremely low as compared to the value of the information provided, so that even if beneficiaries only give back a small proportion of what they receive, the system covers is effective.[citation needed]
In a post-scarcity society, people use only a small proportion of working time to buy the necessities of life, such as food and clothing, leaving them time and energy to give to others without money.[citation needed]
Coexistence with a traditional money economy poses the threat that leechers could gain profit by reselling goods or services provided by a money-free economy. A suitable accounting system such as Altruistic Economics could protect such a system against such free riders by identifying consistent takers who don't give back.[citation needed]
A shortage of money is one obvious incentive to pursue a money-free economy, with people doing things for one another 'on credit'. Other motivations to avoid money are economic or political conditions that leave money as an unusually insecure option, such as political instability or a risk of hyperinflation.[citation needed] Of course in such a case an argument can be made that the 'credits' people are using are also a form of informal currency, albeit a less practical one then the formal kind since they will be more difficult to trade.[citation needed]
[edit] Consequences
As an economy becomes money-free, tax revenues are likely to decline, and economic sanctions such as fines or subsidies become less important in dictating people's course of action. A switch to a money-free economy would likely decrease the power of national governments and central banks as it increased individual freedom and autonomy.
Since even mention of money increases people's competitiveness,[citation needed] a large scale money-free economy may be expected to promote cooperative behavior.
In a money free economy, one must find other incentive to encourage people to do things for which they would never do for free, such as extremely dangerous or unappealing work.[citation needed]
It might be good to keep in mind prehistoric humans didn't have currency as we know it today. Population-growth and the appearance of city-states and later countries necessitated a commodity that was easy to store and handle in order to facilitate trade. There is no known example of a developed culture that managed to exist without some form of money.[citation needed] |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2011 : 5:48:03 PM
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| no wonder it will be deleated from wiki. It is very vague and doesn't really show how that is supposed to work. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2011 : 6:06:42 PM
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There is no way it would work. Money is not a problem, and the author doesn't understand the reason for it.
Say you need a $2 part from China and $80 worth of labor to repair your TV. You are a computer programmer who gets $20 an hour. They guy who repairs your TV doesn't need programming, and people in china do their own in Chinese. You spend a week trying to find people who need programming and will exchange these things to fix your TV. You found one guy who imports things from China in exchange for wheat. You find another guy who grows wheat but doesn't need programming, he needs more water for his farm.
Are we beginning to see the reason for money? |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2011 : 7:15:15 PM
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Hi Porcupine,
When I saw the title of your thread, I thought maybe you were thinking of the now somewhat famous man who lives part-time in a cave. The media seems to love him. He abstains from personal possession of money, neither does he do conscious barter. He is not judgmental of others. He seems like a very pleasant fellow following his bliss.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Suelo
And here is a woman who quit using money. People take her in. She has a very special gift. She kind of reminds me of Peace Pilgrim. The camera loves her. People send her tickets to come spend time with them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzitB1xyoc
This farmer, barterer, who lives without using money says he's never been happier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyqavzuFZ3c&NR=1
As for me, I am more inclined to live on very little money like the character portrayed by this HOWCAST actor. I like the comedic twist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvDz...feature=fvwp
In the sticky for this topic, Yogani writes:
"The apparent incompatibility we may find between our spiritual aspirations, our career, and money can be resolved over time as we advance in our yoga practices."
When I read that, I felt reassured that the extreme ways of living found in the examples above will probably not be for me, at least not in a a prolonged, stuck way. It seems wise to consider the options though -- extreme simplicity can be very useful in managing transitions.
Peace,
Be |
Edited by - bewell on May 22 2011 8:57:17 PM |
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lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2011 : 2:34:55 PM
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Hi. If I'm not mistaken we tried a 'money free' experiment in the 60's and 70's, it was called the barter system which operated on a large scale for thousand of years prior. Of course, in a modern world it would not be as easy as 'I'll swap you my mule for two goats and chicken' as it was in the 18th century when people were more self-relient.
But before it could even begin as an experiment in the 60's the government clamped down on it heavy because of the prodigious loss of taxes. Apparently congressman don't like to be paid in yams and carrots or a promisory note for a new car after 300 hours of work. But would a 'money free' economy work? Of course, as it did in Germany in the 1920's during hyper-inflation. People are extremely inventive when it comes to surviving. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2011 : 3:25:36 PM
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Yes it can work temporarily on a local scale if people get back to basics; food, shelter, clothing. But there are so many problems with barter as anyone can tell you who has tried it like I have. Money makes it easy to compensate for partial values and settle. Say you offer your services of half a day for 2 1/2 live chickens. How do you make change? Then what if the guy shows up with sickly chickens much smaller than you imagined?
Money settles problems like this. You look at his chickens and pay him or not. You only have to deal with the value of one side of the transaction at a time. The guy with the chickens you want doesn't have to be the same guy who wants your services.
Barter also causes problems with egos. Dishonest people take advantage of you. You have to develop bartering skills in addition to your regular trade. The number of skills has exploded in the last century. People need to specialize more. A "doctor" can no longer know everything about the human body. An electrician who wires new houses doesn't know how to troubleshoot electrical in complex industrial machinery (that's what I do).
So money is necessary to make value portable. People can't concentrate all necessary skills in one small town.
Now if we have hyperinflation like in Germany, Zimbabwe etc., we can barter, but we will need to give up all high technology and live like the Amish. It will be an extremely frustrating, difficult life because our cities are not configured to live like the Amish, and our people don't have those skills.
How many of us are skilled at farming, raising animals, butchering, making clothes, and repairing houses?
Those are the skills that can be bartered when money has no value. Nothing can be had from a distance.
Most high technology like these computers can't survive on a barter system. If you know everything it takes to make and sustain computers, batteries, electricity, and the internet you will know why.
Most of the food we consume in the US is produced at a distance. We would need to move to small towns surrounded by farms. But people already own that land around small towns, so it would skyrocket in value, and your house in the city would be worthless. We would need many more farmers, etc.
So yes, upon radically changing our entire society and life style, we can live with barter. It would mean giving up everything we know, learning new skills, and starting over. |
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lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2011 : 6:52:51 PM
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| Oh, I totally agree. It would be a much harder existance, one that I would not choose to live out of anything except desparation. All I meant was it is possible on a small, local scale as you mentioned, to basically survive. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2011 : 10:43:04 PM
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Absolutely, and the funny thing is, most of our efforts today do not go to our survival. They go to the government, protecting us from people we can't trust, transportation of stuff we need, etc.
There are many things better about the way the Amish live, both for the planet and for the individual's spirituality. But it is not our way. That could change though. 
P.S. The Amish use money. |
Edited by - Etherfish on May 30 2011 10:44:52 PM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2011 : 08:05:38 AM
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Money is not the problem - people are the problem. What they do with money would still be done if you didn't have money. This has been going on since the beginning of mankind. People find ways to control other people.
If you look close enough you will see the same pattern where no money is involved.
Case in point:
If you read the comments on that page, you will see there are arguments among the heirarchy of the "movement" about how to implement it. Egos trying to control other egos. This is the same problem we have with money. Plus the video is full of misunderstandings and omissions about money, and the state of the world today, which is not caused by money. It's caused by too many people.
What would really solve the problem is yoga, but people are deluded, thinking they can do it through politics.
Control your own ego with yoga; you don't need to control all the other egos of everyone else.
But just a note about these people sitting in a chair telling everyone how the world could be a much better place with their ideas: you're kinda raising a red flag. Get out there and take some action! Then when you come back and report what you are doing, you will have a lot more credibility. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jun 05 2011 12:22:36 PM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2011 : 02:30:48 AM
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| Hi Etherfish, I definitely agree with you there. More people practicing yoga would make a huge difference in the world. |
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Money Free Existence
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