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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 10:53:50 AM
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Hi all,
I would like to further the discussions on satire here posted by David http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=962 , and bring out some other issues which I wish to say for a long time.
Jim wrote:
quote:
It's an ahimsa issue, but more in the sense of being driven to change from deep insight than from a notion of "right" and "wrong".
nearoanoke wrote:
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I like Jim's post. Rather than trying to check our actions for our own limited meaning of "right" and "wrong",
I like Jim's post, too. Very insightful. Spiritual things like that have opened my mind for a good many months. That part I don't have much to offer, only to learn. But I am for the idea of harming others for a short while sometimes, in order to minimize harm in the long run.
Before I express what I said, I realize that satire or even revealing sad facts is not a wise or appropriate thing for a guru (or anyone promoting certain system of spiritual practices) to do. So I understand (and appreciate) Yogani's effort trying not to touch upon any sensitive issues even when he has something in his mind. If he uses satire or reveal too much, there is an opportunity of having a disaster some time in the future. And this risk alone outweight any positive effects of that satire.
For us, I can¡¦t judge whether satire is beneficial on the whole. (see below, however) However, (or at least a good many of us) it's quite helpful to go to the intelletual level (at least occasionally), and makes various judgements on what kind of actions will do least harm in the long run. And satire can be very helpful in revealing how stupid, how destructive certain actions/religion can be.
Revealing certain facts about a religion/organization is needed, even when this means harming others for a while. So a rational, intellectual discussions should go first (before you let go). For many that doesn¡¦t work, satire can then be very helpful.
1. We need to know ¡§what happened¡¨ about an organization----why it¡¦s much safer to be rational and intellectual before we let go
Allow me to take some extreme examples. (hope that won't harm anyone here!!) Look at the Islamic extremist. Subjectively they have every bit of the spiritual experience, or "Bhati" as you guys here. May be even stronger. Every bit of their great efforts is a radiance of their (very special kind of) love towards God, towards (their) higher goal. I¡¦m NOT saying that satire against them is useful in this case. It could only be worse. I am emphasizing the danger of following your Bhati and "spirituality" only, and be too ignorant about objective truth, about "yes and no".
Some religions/organizations seems very spiritual from the inside. But very destructive to the world. These religions are solving problems and providing a spiritual path for the followers---they solve problems which they CREATED for the followers, and PROVIDE a definite path which the followers have not much choice, so that they feel secure. And followers, therefore, adhere to the organizations firmly. Even firmer if you tell how radical their beliefs are, because for them, what you said confirm what their ¡§guru¡¨ teach: that the world is devilish, and is against the organization. ¡§Only in the organization can you find peace¡¨, they think.
So to help those who have not (yet) fall into the trap of such ¡§destructive subjectively spiritual path¡¨, rational discussions go first. But to talk to those who are already in it, usually rational discussions doesn¡¦t work well.
2. how satire can help (under certain situations) when rational discussions doesn¡¦t work
Why, when David asked "what did Britian do that so disappointed His Holiness? " or use the term "lotus feet" of Maharishi Mahish Yogi, we would instantly feel that he is not taking these terms literally? What if he's talking about "Buddha" instead of "Mahish" here? I'll bet then most of us will take it literally. Yes?
I can only guess by common sense: (correct me if rhetoric concerns are more crucial here, my English is bad) There are indeed many dirty and funny FACTS about Mr. Mahish, while Buddha is too spiritual for us to comment on. We have the right to know and learn as much as possible about what they did, before we decide whether to follow their path. This is the meaning of ¡§open-source¡¨, and it¡¦s great, I suppose? We don¡¦t need to defense for Buddha: most people who attack Buddha will be attacking himself, and if there¡¦s an occasional fault of Buddha, we learn even more from it.
So as I see it, the reason why satire on (say) Mahish hurt his followers is that: there some facts they know but is reluctant to accept. Even though they know deep in their hearts the problems, they prefer to follow blindly, without criticizing/thinking. This tendency is dangerous. The habit itself could bring unnecessary misery, especially if Mahish turns to be an extremist. Satire forces us to think. To be alert all the time, and avoid the danger of becoming ¡§subjectively spiritual¡¨.
Alvin
P.S. I myself was in a radical Christian Church since I was born (until I was 17). While it is ultimately a long-term rational thinking which took me out of this miserable small world, satire played a great role in initiating me and forcing me to think. Who would be hurted if we are endowed with truth? And if we are not, let it hurts!! |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Mar 24 2006 11:12:51 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 11:20:40 AM
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Well Alvin you sure opened up a nice can of worms.. I will not comment on any of the stuff you have said.. There is a reson I was born a Hindu, you a Christian someone else a Muslim or Buddhist.. we dont have answers to why.. I believe.. everybody has a destination in this life time and that is as far as they will get.. Who are we to judge anybody?
The only thing I will say is, Yogani does not want to do any guru (or religion I am sure) bashing in this forum. This is a place to learn and progress. Also, if someone who was a Maharishi fan.. does come across this forum and sees so much bad being said about someone he considers a guru.. he is going to walk away without giving AYP a fair shot. Yogani wants this to be a safe place for every one to be comfortable in.. to learn from each other.. I am sure there are a lot of places on the web you could go and speak your mind.. but doing it here may hurt us, by turning away someone who would have actually benefited from this, but is turned off by what we have to say about his/her religion or guru.. My two cents.. |
Edited by - Shanti on Mar 24 2006 12:29:58 PM |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 12:44:13 PM
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Hi everyone
Talk about a can of worms, I started this Maharishi thread in AYP helpers just to put forward the thought that we could and should try to attract all those disowned TM people out there but I seem to have started something that wont go away, Lets stop knocking the Maharishi and just concentrate on providing a place where all those TM'ers can come and find something better. 
RICHARD |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 12:44:33 PM
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Shanti said:
Also, if someone who was a Maharishi fan.. does come across this forum and sees so much bad being said about someone he considers a guru.. he is going to walk away without giving AYP a fair shot.
Shanti, that's one description of one possible dynamic. Another is that he is thinking of getting close to the TM organization and changes his mind. A third is that he learns to separate "baby and bathwater" -- he learns that Maharishi neither invented Mantra Yoga nor represents it.
The baby-bathwater separation is vital. It so happens that the TM organization co-opted a wonderful ancient meditation technique. The technique is one of the best.
A fourth is that he has had psychological tendencies to follow gurus, and re-evaluates it. A fifth is that he has already been close to the TM organization and does some coming-to-terms with it.
This just about says it all:
Alvin said:
Who would be hurt if we are endowed with truth? And if we are hurt, let it hurt!!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 24 2006 12:52:22 PM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 12:57:47 PM
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Nice considerations, Shanti. So I am not sure about the effects of satire here in this forum. (although I myself welcome it, and I could only be benefited from it) If Yogani or AYP will be blamed for the satire, then probably it's better not to do it here. Will it?
I guess most reasonable people will recognize that it's David who posted that, and Yogani always tried to be neutral and silent. By the way, I myself should be blamed for analyzing some bad things about Sahaja yoga somewhere in this forum. Fortunately I am far from being a guru, and I am not in any way representing AYP.
I do have one concern which I would like to hear some comments : the forum here is (partially) for discussing and comparing different systems of practices (and the more mind-stuffs: beliefs?). Is it possible to do it without (at least implicitly) mentioning some goods and bads? I myself will try to stick with CAUSE-EFFECTS when talking about practices. But it has already bored many of you here who are more spiritually oriented. And what if we are to discuss a whole belief system, or a school of thoughts? What if we really find a fault of so-and-so organization (even Catholic) which we want to protect ourselves against? Should it be banned here? (provided that the charges are based on FACTS and is not too irritable)
We ought to do it somewhere. And it's good to have some places (may be not here) to reveal the bad things. As the task is better not to be done by someone like Yogani, it's left to us. And indeed even if it can be done here in this forum, doing it too much can be bad: It will give a bad impression to those from the other systems, that the AYP guys like to attack other systems!! You know, people in this world are still not very open-minded and they don't like open discussions.
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Edited by - Alvin Chan on Mar 24 2006 1:00:57 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 12:57:50 PM
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Richard said:
but I seem to have started something that wont go away
Actually Richard, what really gave life to these things was the attempt to stop them being said. It's one of those ironies. 
Alvin said:
If Yogani or AYP will be blamed for the satire, then probably it's better not to do it here. Will it?
Don't worry, Alvin. Yogani neither sets himself up as a guru, nor wants AYP forum to be just his opinion. AYP itself can be a community; but AYP forum is more like a place, and a place doesn't have an opinion.
In fact, that is part of the very meaning of 'forum'. That's an important difference between, 'forum' and, say, 'committee', or 'organization'.
I believe that the truth is that contentiousness and open debate will work much better than any attempt to produce uniformity of opinion and tone.
That's why the American Revolution was a great success and the French Revolution was a disaster.
It will also draw larger crowds, truth be told. Yes, the American Revolution drew much larger crowds than the French one.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 24 2006 1:07:50 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 1:43:15 PM
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I think you guys can say whatever you want.. as long as you don't make it personal... Alvin, you think Muslims are misguided.. but they don't think they are.. they believe what ever they are doing is to find God... just the way you think, whatever you are doing here is to find God (or whatever you want to call it self realization, truth, spirituality).. That is why I ask you.. who are we to judge if they are right or wrong.. I have had very good Muslim friends.. did I agree with what they believe in, NO.. but that does not mean I think they are any less of a human than I am.. this is the environment they were born in.. to go through this experience.. To them, I am wasting my life trying to find inner peace.. they are absolutely convinced of this.. are they wrong.. hey who are we to judge that either. By making a big discussion on this.. you think we will really learn anything, other than the fact that they pray and think differently than us???? By proving that Maharishi is wrong.. what are you going to achieve??? Isn't it like reading that stupid meaningless news...
quote:
Like reading stupid and meaningless news which I don't really enjoy.
I am sorry.. I don't want to comment on this topic. its not that I don't think about these things.. I do.. but I believe in Live and let live.. if by proving that Muslims are extremist.. or Maharishi is wrong you can make us more enlightened.. go ahead... else, its not worth getting your inner silence disrupted over this. Every negative thought is a little more mud on your windshield...
PS. Dont you think by talking more about the positives of AYP.. we would get more TM guys out here.. than by saying how wrong Maharishi was???? |
Edited by - Shanti on Mar 24 2006 1:50:43 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 2:18:24 PM
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hmm..I wasnt following the forum very well these days so dont really know whats the exact issue with david's posts. If I remember correctly, it was him being aggressive and bashing openly maharshi or jesus or other popular figures.
The thing about this kind of bashing is that it feels great and there will be slight ego-satisfaction thing, atleast for me when I bash some popular figure/institution  . As long as we make sure that we are just putting forward our point logically and in a convincing manner without feeling good about it, it wont cause any problems.
It is a FACT that saying it harshly wont work with "most" people. Most of us are surrounded in the shells of ego and telling it harshly wont work. Even Yogananda very politely comments about his guru Yukteswar that his harsh ways wont work with most people. Here are the direct lines from his autobiography
quote:
Master was not popular with superficial students. The wise, always few in number, deeply revered him. I daresay Sri Yukteswar would have been the most sought-after guru in India had his words not been so candid and so censorious.
If we really want to do good to "most" people it is better to go with a more softer and convincing manner. If people still get hurt with a very logical point put in a soft manner they need to grow up. We are posting in a forum afterall and not in main website.
But anyway I feel trying to change ppl with arguments doesnt work. This has been the case in India for centuries with institutions fighting with one another. Advaita vs Dvaita, Ramanujacharya vs shankaracharya, madhavacharya vs ramanujacharya, iskcon vs meditation. These arguments never end. A wise person doesnt waste time in these and instead tries to concentrate on changing from within than changing whats out. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2006 : 3:55:14 PM
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nearanoke said:
If we really want to do good to "most" people it is better to go with a more softer and convincing manner.
Near, this is fine as a policy to be given to a movement or an organization. I don't want to belong to the organization in question. In this way we have the difference between an organization and a forum.
Shanti, I understand what you said, but I can offer you things:
if you don't like what people are saying, you can do two things: one, put on your typing gloves and disagree with them; two, ignore them.
The forum is reaching a critical size where it ceases to be possible for most of us to read everything. We are going to have to start scanning by topic or our interest. Which means that ignoring will become a necessity rather than an option. Which means we will choose what to ignore, and what not to.
shanti said:
I think you guys can say whatever you want.. as long as you don't make it personal...
That't the way I thought it was once; I'm no longer sure it is as good as that. What's certain is that my satire on Maharishi was not personal.
Yogani said:
In fact, we have a rule here in AYP that no teacher or tradition is to be disrespected.
This scares the life out of me. Where is the border between Alvin's expressing that he believes that Muslim extremists are misguided (and the vast majority of them consider him misguided) and his 'disrespecting a teacher and tradition'? There's no doubt that Alvin's attack is not personal, but there may be some doubt that it is not disrespectful.
And what of atheists? Some of them think all religions are misguided. I welcome them. If I disagree, I would like to respond with my typing gloves in making a response, not the moderator button.
There's a bias towards 'piety' developing here.
I'm against any attempt to 'moderate for' conformity in opinion or tone. I believe we should be moderated on two things; relevance, and good behavior towards other posters.
Attempts to control tone ultimately fail.
Of course, it could be said that AYP forum should be come a forum for an "AYP Organization". In that case, Yogani is in charge, and what he wants to be said will be said. I'll be outa here though.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 24 2006 3:59:29 PM |
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LittleDragon
29 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2006 : 12:16:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Yogani said:
In fact, we have a rule here in AYP that no teacher or tradition is to be disrespected.
This scares the life out of me. Where is the border between Alvin's expressing that he believes that Muslim extremists are misguided (and the vast majority of them consider him misguided) and his 'disrespecting a teacher and tradition'? There's no doubt that Alvin's attack is not personal, but there may be some doubt that it is not disrespectful.
Please excuse my ignorance, but where also is the border on disrespecting fundamental Christianity? (I'm not including myself in that group.) I know many people who would take offense at the topics comparing Budda to Jesus or the idea that their Bible might contain a transcription or translation error. Are we to worry that they might be turned away from what AYP has to offer by such talk?
Is it not important to question both the motives and competence of individuals and traditions who are supposed to be "spiritual" teachers in order not to be misled?
Who can draw a definite border between the three countries of Hatred, Disrespect, and Humor that all could agree on? It seems simple enough, and as long as we are living in the world of dualities I quess we must try, but yet ..... what is taken as humor in one society causes another society to react with hatred.
So do we limit ourselves to silence when we see what we think is an injustice? Are we disrespecting Muslims if we voice our disagreement with their putting a convert to Chritianity to death? (I'm not saying this forum is the place to do that, or that Christians haven't done the same) but then again maybe every place is the place where it should be done.
Is political correctness more important than "correctness"?
So much soul searching, so little time. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2006 : 10:03:05 AM
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Welcome LittleDragon. Thank you for your post... I like what you say. quote:
I know many people who would take offense at the topics comparing Budda to Jesus or the idea that their Bible might contain a transcription or translation error
quote:
Who can draw a definite border between the three countries of Hatred, Disrespect, and Humor that all could agree on? It seems simple enough, and as long as we are living in the world of dualities I quess we must try, but yet ..... what is taken as humor in one society causes another society to react with hatred.
Thanks for showing me a new angle to what was being said. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2006 : 11:07:35 AM
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Personally I love the satire and think it's hilarious. But it is not taken well by the people we are satirizing. It pushes them away because it seems to them that you don't understand them and wish to trivialize and laugh at them. If they are haters, it adds to their hate or instigates it.
Some people will hate you no matter what you say, and our very existence offends some people. So that we can't do anything about except set an example.
But where we should draw the line in discussing what is good or bad about other paths is in how we write. I wouldn't call it "softening"; I would call it being diplomatic.
One way is to speak of actions or practices you don't like rather than the people doing them.
Then there are ways of writing that keep people from feeling alienated. One is being specific about what you're saying, both the issue, and why you think it is bad, and make sure you define it as your opinion.
For instance "Muslims are hateful toward westerners" is very inflammatory.
A little better is "the extremist Muslim belief that westerners have to be converted or killed is very hateful in my opinion"
That says it is not all Muslims, and it's the belief you disagree with, and it's your opinion, not absolute truth. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2006 : 12:12:37 PM
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| Very well said Etherfish, I agree completely. If we express our opinions, especially those that could be seen as negative by some, in a diplomatic way, and from the standpoint of how we experience them, instead of stating for a fact that they are bad etc., that helps a lot to bridge differences between people. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2006 : 12:37:50 PM
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Shanti wrote:
quote:
Alvin, you think Muslims are misguided..
quote:
By proving that Maharishi is wrong.. what are you going to achieve???
I am sorry if that's because of my poor English again: you misunderstand what I mean again, Shanti. I didn't say Muslims are misguided. And I didn't say Maharishi IS wrong. It is a personal reaction for you to add those deductions, just as it's my personal reaction not to agree with some EXTREMIST Muslim. (probably not your friends, but those trying to bomb you Americans)
It's left to you guys to judge whether those EXTREMIST Muslims are misguided. Just be honest: Are you really neutral towards these actions? (not their religion, but the outcomes). If you said you are, is it just a matter of your use of language?
I talked about the outcomes, the facts. The fact is: SOME extremist muslims are bombing everyday, trying to kill you Americans because of their belief system. (to be fair, there are such guys in every religions, although it's more systematically promoted in Muslims). It's not the "good or bad" about their belief which I wanted to emphasiz, but the final OUTCOME: they are trying to kill you, Shanti! Although there's no borderline, we don't want to go that far to accept (or be neutral) all kinds of actions. It doesn't mean we have to bomb them or to irritate them further. But we shall discourage these actions (which is driven by the peculiar belief system, which goes against mainstream Muslims). The best way to do this without much violence is by talking and writing. They will still not feel good when they read it however gentle your writings are. But you won't kill them. You won't hurt them so directly as a bomb. If they are hurt, it's they who hurt themselves, it's their belief system which doesn't withstand the attack. (don't irritate them on purpose, however. That's commonsense)
quote:
if by proving that Muslims are extremist.. or Maharishi is wrong you can make us more enlightened
First of all you misquoted me again. And whatever I said cannot make you or anyone enlightened. But there are things which we do everyday and talked about here that will not make us more enlightened! Will talking about kundalini symptoms makes you more enlightened? No. But it helps you along the path, right? Similarly, I was talking about (in the case of extremist Muslims) the possible disasters that many people will go into DURING THEIR JOURNEY TO ENLIGHTENMENT! Isn't it worth mentioning, just as much as the possible kundalini symptoms that may arise? You will only hurt yourself if you have too much energy flow, but you can harm and kill many in SOME kinds of spiritual paths.(which is always our own path, even though we learn a lot from the others)
That's what I want to emphasiz: we need to look closely at the outcome, to have some notions of goods and bads and make various judgements(in order not to be lost in our subjective notions of enlightenment) before we let go.
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quote:
For instance "Muslims are hateful toward westerners" is very inflammatory.
A little better is "the extremist Muslim belief that westerners have to be converted or killed is very hateful in my opinion"
That says it is not all Muslims, and it's the belief you disagree with, and it's your opinion, not absolute truth.
I agree. Except that "in my opinion" is redundant since it's certainly true(we are not going to add this in our every statemant in my opinion, are we?), and "is very hateful " may be a bit inflammatory. Anyway, we NEED to judge at the final moments that SOME forms of actions (e.g. killing Americans) are not an expression of enlightment. All agree?? However we do to express it without being inflammatory is something else.
By the way, I don't hate even the extremist Muslims, probably because I'm not their major target. In fact I'm sympathetic towards them (hope the secret agencies are not here). Considering my personality, I can imagine that I may be one of them if I was born there. But my rational mind tell me how crazy and dangerous these thoughts are. This is why I emphazised again and again the need of objective mind and analysis of the outcome. This is my personal, first hand experience of how dangerous it is to JUST let go to your higher goals, whether it be God or something else. Subjectively it feels just as good, may be even better, than a "good" path. But from the outside it's a mess.
Alvin |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Mar 25 2006 1:17:11 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2006 : 3:07:48 PM
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Personally I believe that most of the extremist muslims don't become terrorists because of their bhakti.
They see the USA as invaders, and israelies as infidels. They have been brought up in an environment where human life is not worth much, there is always fighting and killing, and they don't see how they could be a part of anything good in the world.
The only people who act at all like their friends are violent extremists who tell them it's right because God is on their side, and the only good things are after death.
So these lost people sit around and make each other angrier. They see the USA as using violence and that's the only thing they understand. They use religion to justify what they do as being right. I think there are many more good Muslims than bad, but the bad ones are the ones we hear about. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2006 : 4:04:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Personally I believe that most of the extremist muslims don't become terrorists because of their bhakti.
I agree. Bhakti is the wrong word here. It is more because of the environment and to some extent genetical. Probably we could call it misguided Bhakti which turned into religious fanaticism. The Islam religion doesnt anyway promote or support this kind of thing. Infact most of the muslim friends who follow religion "correctly" are very honest and display the qualities of a true spiritual aspirant.
-Near
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2006 : 5:45:00 PM
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David (I) said:
Of course, it could be said that AYP forum should be come a forum for an "AYP Organization". In that case, Yogani is in charge, and what he wants to be said will be said. I'll be outa here though.
What I wrote there is one of those things that can seem really fine or really mean, depending on how it is looked at. I don't mean it meanly, and I am sorry if it seems this way. Sorry as in 'it's my fault'.
In fact, the truth is, there could well be a forum that is part of an AYP organization, and there are things said there that Yogani doesn't like. The truth is, he shows enormous tolerance and fexibility with what he allows on the forum, and that could well continue.
And the truth is, even if the forum becomes like that (and I'm not sure it will, that's just an 'if') I might well continue to contribute to it. Why not? It wouldn't be quite the same as we have now, and I'd prefer it as it is, but I'm not going to 'leave in protest' or anything like that.
We all have attachments. I have an attachment to the forum as I experienced it so far; 'Talking out loud' from an attached point of view is always dodgey, and I am sorry if I annoyed anyone by doing that here.
Regards to all,
-David
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2006 : 12:22:13 AM
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quote:
PS. Dont you think by talking more about the positives of AYP.. we would get more TM guys out here.. than by saying how wrong Maharishi was????
That's a very good point, and one that's so simple-seeming it could get lost.
It's easy to knock the dumb stuff. Lord knows there's a lot of it. Once knocking starts, it's very tempting and contagious. But it does nothing but polarize the conversation.
You don't help a Kenny G fan by telling him his hero sucks. You help by simply turning him on to John Coltrane, and the Kenny G fascination will quickly fall away of its own accord.
Nobody gets convinced in the negative, but lives can be changed via the viral effects of pointing out treasure. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2006 : 10:46:20 AM
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Quit knocking Kenny G!! just kidding, but I can see how somebody would like him.
Good point, Jim'n.
This is all part of the "baby with the bathwater" syndrome. I'm tired of that though; I think I'll rename it the "Good News is No News" syndrome!
We do something extremely good for the world, then we screw up and all anyone talks about is the bad stuff. Pretty prevalent in the news here in the USA. Has to do with money. Good news doesn't sell.
I don't believe in sugar coating everything and ignoring the negative.
But I do think we should favor the positive (thank you Yogani for that concept).
So we could say Maharishi did so much for so many, and he's been in a bad place for a while now. Hope he comes out of it, or maybe some of the people who have gained so much from him in the past can somehow return the favor?
Also there's the possibility that there's nothing wrong with him at all but being surrounded by the wrong "crew". |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 26 2006 10:48:52 AM |
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"Yes and No" before "letting go", please
