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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 02 2011 : 02:56:54 AM
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"Waking ,dreaming and deep sleep are like a long dream ...if we see a dream and are involved in that dream ,all the events that we see will seem real for the duration of the dream.But when we awake the dream disappears and we realize that nothing ever happened except in our minds......we see a dream yet on waking up the dream disappears and we exist in the waking state.On going to sleep the whole world disappears ....By observing these 3 states (waking ,dreaming and deep sleep ) we come to understand that consciouness alone is what we really are....We have to learn how to rest in Turiya ,the fourth and primal state which is the witness of the other three states
(Q/A with Annamalai Swami in Living by the words of Bhagavan/David Godman) |
Edited by - AYPforum on Mar 02 2011 05:15:26 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2011 : 08:04:43 AM
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When ego is extinguished, the sage is freed from waking, dreaming and deep sleep.
All that remains is Turiya, a noble state, first, last and all- transcendent. Ramana says that the first three states are grounded in the self, but Turiya is Being-Awareness and non-dual. When in Turiya, you know that the first three states are false. In Turiya, there is an irreversible union with Brahman: There is Oneness with Brahman. There is a permanent Metaphysical Unity.
In the waking and dream sleep, it is the ego and not the atman that sees a world of fancy, but that ego sees nothing in deep sleep.
http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/AUM_OM.htm
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2011 : 7:05:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
When ego is extinguished, the sage is freed from waking, dreaming and deep sleep.
All that remains is Turiya, a noble state, first, last and all- transcendent. Ramana says that the first three states are grounded in the self, but Turiya is Being-Awareness and non-dual. When in Turiya, you know that the first three states are false. In Turiya, there is an irreversible union with Brahman: There is Oneness with Brahman. There is a permanent Metaphysical Unity.
In the waking and dream sleep, it is the ego and not the atman that sees a world of fancy, but that ego sees nothing in deep sleep.
http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/AUM_OM.htm
Yes.
Dreaming still happens; "echoes of the waking state" as Nisargadatta says, but we've realized we are not the dreamer, or the "person" in the waking state.
It's fluid, not static.
Living, not bound.
But mostly, it's beautiful.
So unspeakably beautiful.
As I've written before:
There's a reason people have been dedicating their lives to this stuff for thousands of years, y'know.
Also - Turiya refers to pure, primordial awareness; our natural state, yes.
However, even turiya resolves into turyatita, the "state beyond the fourth" .... very mysterious, little understood ... and simplicity itself.
Turyatita is .wholeness.
The wholeness we each and all ever actually are now .... the One; This One, beyond all artificial designations and separations.
Because all designations and separations are artificial.
Letting mind rest, knowing wholeness now; letting the loving live us.
AUM Sweet AUM
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2011 : 02:22:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Dreaming still happens; "echoes of the waking state" as Nisargadatta says, but we've realized we are not the dreamer, or the "person" in the waking state.
The world is but the surface of the mind and the mind is infinite. What we call thoughts are just ripples in the mind. When the mind is quiet it reflects reality. When it is motionless through and through, it dissolves and only reality remains. This reality is so concrete, so actual, so much more tangible than mind and matter, that compared to it even diamond is soft like butter. This overwhelming actuality makes the world dreamlike, misty, irrelevant.
~Nisargadatta
The dream ends the moment you realise its a dream. It is impossible to continue dreaming without falling asleep again.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2011 : 03:07:39 AM
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| Manigma ...thanks for the link.. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2011 : 1:34:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Dreaming still happens; "echoes of the waking state" as Nisargadatta says, but we've realized we are not the dreamer, or the "person" in the waking state.
The world is but the surface of the mind and the mind is infinite. What we call thoughts are just ripples in the mind. When the mind is quiet it reflects reality. When it is motionless through and through, it dissolves and only reality remains. This reality is so concrete, so actual, so much more tangible than mind and matter, that compared to it even diamond is soft like butter. This overwhelming actuality makes the world dreamlike, misty, irrelevant.
~Nisargadatta
The dream ends the moment you realise its a dream. It is impossible to continue dreaming without falling asleep again.
I was referring to a question Nisargadatta got in I AM THAT, where people were asking him if he sleeps or dreams, and when asked specifically how he would define dreams, he replied that dreams (at night) are "echoes of the waking state."
Both statements of his (your quote and mine) are true.
The key to understanding both is: the body-mind still goes through its cycles -- liberated, we know/experience that we are not the body-mind alone (yet it is an aspect of us, as all is - "the body is the perceptible" as the Shiva Sutras say).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2011 : 1:51:59 PM
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In my experience, "deep sleep" is rarely witnessed. I have known aware deep sleep, but usually there does not seem to be awareness. I have known there is such a thing as a lucid dream, and I have experienced that, but usually when I dream, I am not lucid in the sense of witnessing the dream. The awake state is the state when, looking back, I see a dream as a dream and deep sleep as deep sleep. I sometimes "witness" being awake, and I can make a decision to witness.
In my experience there is a fourth state. It resembles deep sleep in that I know it by what came before and after. I experienced this forth state only once, but it is the highest state of ecstasy I have known, and that one experience of no experience is now in some very real sense mysteriously always with me. I love being conscious of it. Here is what came before: an ecstatic ascent that was deathlike in that body was gone, the inner senses were gone, and all that was left was mental awareness in a perceptual void. Here is what came after: seeing a light, and then being morphed out of nowhere into my body, into my mind, into my senses in the most pure aware samadhi I have ever known -- mind aware but without content, body awake and automatic with a sense of luminosity and "lightness of air." The background noise of desire was completely absent. Perfect peace.
I look back on that fourth state as complete union with what we might call "Source" or the "One." Going into the fourth state was intensely awake and aware, coming out of the fourth was intensely awake and aware, and being in it was no time, no space.
I like looking back on that fourth state as "pregnant void" (thanks Adya) because out of that void was born a new way of being in the here and now, "naturally" -- pure bliss, unblocked conductivity, stillness in action (a new way of being in my nervous system).
What happened was completely passive, and it did not last long. It was not my doing. But learning to live out of that forth state is what led me to the path called AYP. And the AYP path does its work whether one has had such an ecstasy or not. |
Edited by - bewell on Mar 03 2011 2:07:47 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Mar 04 2011 : 03:39:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I was referring to a question Nisargadatta got in I AM THAT, where people were asking him if he sleeps or dreams, and when asked specifically how he would define dreams, he replied that dreams (at night) are "echoes of the waking state."
Both statements of his (your quote and mine) are true.
The key to understanding both is: the body-mind still goes through its cycles -- liberated, we know/experience that we are not the body-mind alone (yet it is an aspect of us, as all is - "the body is the perceptible" as the Shiva Sutras say).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
I can understand that the body/mind require rest to function normally in the world.
But dreams are based on desires. The one who is fixed within his own self, constantly in bliss, without desires... satchitananda. How can he dream?
Dreaming/Sleep belongs to ego. Enlightenment burns the ego completely.
"echoes of the waking state"
It still does not make sense to me. There is no echo, no waking, no state.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 04 2011 : 4:29:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I was referring to a question Nisargadatta got in I AM THAT, where people were asking him if he sleeps or dreams, and when asked specifically how he would define dreams, he replied that dreams (at night) are "echoes of the waking state."
Both statements of his (your quote and mine) are true.
The key to understanding both is: the body-mind still goes through its cycles -- liberated, we know/experience that we are not the body-mind alone (yet it is an aspect of us, as all is - "the body is the perceptible" as the Shiva Sutras say).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
I can understand that the body/mind require rest to function normally in the world.
But dreams are based on desires. The one who is fixed within his own self, constantly in bliss, without desires... satchitananda. How can he dream?
Dreaming/Sleep belongs to ego. Enlightenment burns the ego completely.
"echoes of the waking state"
It still does not make sense to me. There is no echo, no waking, no state.
Hi Manigma,
In liberation, body-minds continue much as before - including sleeping and dreaming. The liberation comes from the awareness, first that the true subject / experiencer is independent from the content happening within awareness, in the sense that content shifts and moves, but awareness itself does not.
Then, there's the resolution back into wholeness (turiyatita) where the "independent from" no longer applies, there's stillness, and it's dancing - all one, no separation.
The fixed idea of being a (limited, partial) person has dissolved, and what's here now is just openness.
The difference engendered by this is both minor and infinite ... much like opening a closed window that has been closed for a lifetime.
The window is still here ... it's just opened now, and the sense of being apart from things on the other side of that window is gone.
There's focus on regular-person things and activities, and there's always the openness, and mostly, there's more flow than focus.
Whether there's a dreamer or a state or whatever doesn't much matter. There can even be identification with the so-called dreamer in the dream, during the dream, but that doesn't mean liberation has gone anywhere, it simply means that those dynamics are the nature of dreaming.
The only time, I've found when "knowing we're not the dreamer" is important is prior to really knowing we're not the dreamer; after that .... so what? There's no non-freedom.
Dreams being based on desires implies one who desires; in the absence of that idea, dreaming just happens, if and when it happens.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2011 : 03:57:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Hi Manigma,
In liberation, body-minds continue much as before - including sleeping and dreaming. The liberation comes from the awareness, first that the true subject / experiencer is independent from the content happening within awareness, in the sense that content shifts and moves, but awareness itself does not.
Then, there's the resolution back into wholeness (turiyatita) where the "independent from" no longer applies, there's stillness, and it's dancing - all one, no separation.
The fixed idea of being a (limited, partial) person has dissolved, and what's here now is just openness.
The difference engendered by this is both minor and infinite ... much like opening a closed window that has been closed for a lifetime.
The window is still here ... it's just opened now, and the sense of being apart from things on the other side of that window is gone.
There's focus on regular-person things and activities, and there's always the openness, and mostly, there's more flow than focus.
Whether there's a dreamer or a state or whatever doesn't much matter. There can even be identification with the so-called dreamer in the dream, during the dream, but that doesn't mean liberation has gone anywhere, it simply means that those dynamics are the nature of dreaming.
The only time, I've found when "knowing we're not the dreamer" is important is prior to really knowing we're not the dreamer; after that .... so what? There's no non-freedom.
Dreams being based on desires implies one who desires; in the absence of that idea, dreaming just happens, if and when it happens.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
But the window, this side and other side, stillness dancing, lifetime etc are all dream terms.
You know in reality there is no window, neither this side nor that side, neither such thing as stillness dancing or lifetime.
Just as the dream ends when we realise we are dreaming, the dreamer should also end when we realise there is a dreamer.
When there is no dreamer left, then who dreams?
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2011 : 10:47:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
But the window, this side and other side, stillness dancing, lifetime etc are all dream terms.
You know in reality there is no window, neither this side nor that side, neither such thing as stillness dancing or lifetime.
Just as the dream ends when we realise we are dreaming, the dreamer should also end when we realise there is a dreamer.
When there is no dreamer left, then who dreams?
Any confusion stems from trying to talk about this in words, I'd say; attempting to "slice our way to wholeness" (with words) ... challenging at best.
Dreaming doesn't imply a dreamer; dreaming, like all else, just appears to happen, or happens to appear, or whatever.
Mind-angles and expression-angles all get much less interesting when the experience is that mind is a sense and not a self.
There's only wholeness.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2011 : 02:49:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Any confusion stems from trying to talk about this in words, I'd say; attempting to "slice our way to wholeness" (with words) ... challenging at best.
Dreaming doesn't imply a dreamer; dreaming, like all else, just appears to happen, or happens to appear, or whatever.
Mind-angles and expression-angles all get much less interesting when the experience is that mind is a sense and not a self.
There's only wholeness.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
I will try with the words to explain what Nisargadatta meant by his "dreaming" as "echoes of the waking state".
There is a difference between ordinary dreaming and Nisarga's dreaming.
When Nisarga talks with us, he is in Turiya state.
But when Nisarga lies down and closes his eyes (sleep mode), he goes into Turiyatita state. He does not start dreaming like ordinary folk. Its impossible.
So what he means by "echoes of the waking state" is that he is hearing/aware of the world that surrounds him even while he is resting/asleep.
For example: Loud horn of a train passing far away. Enthusiasm of the boys playing cricket in the park near his home. Chirping of the Parrots, Crows on the trees. People talking outside in the street. Cries of his grandson and the vegetable seller. Noise from the Television, Radio etc.
These are the "echoes of the waking state" which Nisargadatta calls his "dreaming".
And yes, its beautiful.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2011 : 04:53:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
So what he means by "echoes of the waking state" is that he is hearing/aware of the world that surrounds him even while he is resting/asleep.
Interesting. I was experiencing that this morning, but I did not have a concept for it. Thanks! |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2011 : 7:17:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
He does not start dreaming like ordinary folk. Its impossible.
Why do you say this?
And, FYI, here's the exact passage from I Am THAT, p. 29:
Q: Coming back to sleep. Do you dream?
M: Of course.
Q: What are your dreams?
M: Echoes of the waking state.
Q: And your deep sleep?
M: The brain consciousness is suspended.
Q: Are you then unconscious?
M: Unconscious of my surroundings -- yes.
Q: Not quite unconscious?
M: I remain aware that I am unconscious.
Q: You use the words 'aware' and 'conscious'. Are they not the same?
M: Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change.
Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep.
Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something.
Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2011 : 11:21:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
He does not start dreaming like ordinary folk. Its impossible.
Why do you say this?
And, FYI, here's the exact passage from I Am THAT, p. 29:
Q: Coming back to sleep. Do you dream?
M: Of course.
Q: What are your dreams?
M: Echoes of the waking state.
Q: And your deep sleep?
M: The brain consciousness is suspended.
Q: Are you then unconscious?
M: Unconscious of my surroundings -- yes.
Q: Not quite unconscious?
M: I remain aware that I am unconscious.
Q: You use the words 'aware' and 'conscious'. Are they not the same?
M: Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change.
Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep.
Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something.
Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
I was specifically explaining his dreaming sleep part. Not the deep sleep where he says he is unconscious of his surroundings but aware of his being unconscious.
Its obvious how can someone remain conscious of his surroundings without any active sense of perception.
Aum.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2011 : 9:31:08 PM
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A quotation about "turiya" from Nisargadatta Maharaj, "The Ultimate Medicine:"
"There is that nine-month period in the womb. So what is the content of the womb? It is that knowledge �I am� in dormant condition. This is being developed slowly, so within the birth principle everything is contained. That which is called birth, the birth principle is �turiya�; the experience that you exist itself is �turiya�. �Turiya� means where the consciousness is. One who knows �turiya� is �turiyatita�. That is my state. �Turiya� is within the consciousness, which is the product of the five elements. And one who transcends that, who knows the �turiya�, is �turiyatita�. In order to stabilize in �turiya�, you must know the birth principle. �Turiya� is always described as the witness state that see through waking, dreaming and sleeping. And �turiyatita� is even beyond that."
http://www.maharajnisargadatta.com/...medicine.php |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2011 : 05:47:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
"Turiya is always described as the witness state that sees through waking, dreaming and sleeping. And Turiyatita is even beyond that."
Q: You spoke of the person (vyakti), the witness (vyakta) and the Supreme (avyakta). Which comes first?
M: In the Supreme the witness appears. The witness creates the person and thinks itself as separate from it. The witness sees that the person appears in consciousness which again appears in the witness. This realisation of the basic unity is the working of the Supreme. It is the power behind the witness, the source from which all flows. It cannot be contacted, unless there is unity and love and mutual help between the person and the witness, unless the doing is in harmony with the being and the knowing. The Supreme is both the source and the fruit of such harmony. As I talk to you, I am in the state of detached but affectionate awareness (turiya). When this awareness turns upon itself, you may call it the Supreme State, (turiyatita). But the fundamental reality is beyond awareness, beyond the three states of becoming, being and not-being.
[Nisargadatta - I Am That]
I have made a flowchart based on above :
Beyond Shiva
http://www.balbro.com/BeyondShiva.jpg
So when the Witness comes in contact with Mind and Matter, it gives birth to Consciousness and Person.
But the fundamental reality is beyond awareness (Supreme state/Turiyatita), beyond the three states of becoming (Witness/Turiya), being (person/conciousness) and not-being (unconciousness/deep sleep).
Beyond Shiva!
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Turiya, the 4th state
