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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 5:40:44 PM
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I had forgotten how it was to fall in love... the little flutter in your heart.. the longing to see your love.. the smile on your face.. the song in your heart...
For the past 2 days I feel like a teenager.. in love for the first time... I am in love.. I am in love with nature...
I have seen the trees outside my house every morning... but suddenly they are so beautiful. Each one is different.. each one has a personality... I did not know there were so many trees in my neighborhood... and really.. all these days I saw in 2D... now I can suddenly see it all 3D.. When I stare at the space between things.. I don't see anything, but my heart skips a beat.. I am out of breath for just a fraction of a second.. I have been walking around with this smile on my face .. looking really silly I am sure.. but I cant help it.. I did not know I could fall in love again.. but I have... |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 6:01:38 PM
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YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!! 
So Shanti, now do we know, was that depression you had a few days ago or a mood-swing?
Shanti said:
For the past 2 days I feel like a teenager..
Congratulations. Lucky you, going through adolescence again.
I think you are onto something good. A purification process that may be a bit rocky at times, like adolescence itself.
Surf it.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 18 2006 6:11:23 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 6:56:15 PM
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| Shanti - I'm so happy for you. So glad that you've made it to the other side of your depression (or mood swing). Life's good! :) |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 7:42:11 PM
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Thanks David and Meg... It sure feels great to be out of my previous state.. All it took was to move from living in my head to my heart.. how easy was that.. never thought it was possible...
You are right Meg.. Life is gooooood.... |
Edited by - Shanti on Mar 18 2006 7:48:04 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 9:14:10 PM
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| I have read from yogis that God can be found in the space between things. . . |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 10:43:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I have read from yogis that God can be found in the space between things. . .
Interesting, Ether. I've just read an article in today's paper which describes a new study center being built in the Silicon Valley, dedicated to the study of dark matter. Researchers will devote their talents to understanding the nature of the 'void', which is thought to be some exotic energy, as yet understood, found in the space between things. I wonder if this is the same energy that's present between events. This may have nothing to do with what Shanti has just been through, or it may have everything to do with it. The energy that's present in the dark times of our life is indeed exotic . . . transformative . . . god? |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 12:09:00 AM
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Congratulations, Shanti. Hope this state is long-lasting for you. But don't feel sad if it doesn't.
I don't think I ever have the nice state you're in now. But sometimes I come close to that--- very occasionally. It's a state where everything is fine, everything problem is easy to solve-- close to no problem at all. It's a question which I have been looking for for years, but still failed to get a clear answer:is there anything I could do to promote that mental state? Or even to stay there without going down again? But I couldn't find any sure way. Certainly a healthy life style (e.g. enough sleep and be happy) is necessary for it, but it's not sufficient. Afterall, a healthy life style can be maintained much easier with that mental state, so cause-effects are interrelated and reinforce each other. But still, I can never stay there for long. Why it always go down again that soon? Yoga seems to help, but it's effects are still too inconsistent for me. |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Mar 19 2006 01:36:24 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 05:57:02 AM
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Alvin wrote:
"is there anything I could do to promote that mental state?"
yes, Yogananda teaches to view every event in the material world the same, not putting any importance on them whether they be "good" or "bad". Concentrate on your bhakti and practice instead because the world is illusion. This helps promote that state.
Meg wrote:
"dedicated to the study of dark matter. Researchers will devote their talents to understanding the nature of the 'void', which is thought to be some exotic energy, as yet understood, found in the space between things."
Yes, physicists studying dark matter and such (there are several other non-normal types of matter) say "normal" matter is only 4% of whats out there!! |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 19 2006 05:58:16 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 07:07:18 AM
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Alvin wrote:
quote:
It's a state where everything is fine, everything problem is easy to solve-- close to no problem at all. It's a question which I have been looking for for years, but still failed to get a clear answer:is there anything I could do to promote that mental state? Or even to stay there without going down again?
Meditate. Regularly.
A mental state does not exist in itself. That is a fiction of imagination. A state of being, however, (more like what Shanti is experiencing as love) will propel you into the moment. It is very human to want to hold on to a positive state like that. However - it is that "holding on" that is the problem. Life is continuous change. The source of life - consciousness - is changeless. Yet, it is an alive changelessness. Anything that flows from it is in change. The instant my mind grasps to hold on, that very instant I lose contact with it.
quote:
Congratulations, Shanti. Hope this state is long-lasting for you. But don't feel sad if it doesn't.
Alvin. Every time I lose touch with Being I am more than sad. I am in deep grief. I spent many years trying to avoid that grief. Everything I did to escape from it was itself the reason that I lost touch with my source. Meditation is the only tool I know of that trains the mind into accepting any lifechange. Simply because meditation slowly taught me to identify with consciousness rather than its content. It is, in fact, not possible "to fall away" from nature. It is always here. Everything is it. It is all one.
Then one day I allowed the grief - much like what Shanti did with her "depression". She accepted it. She stopped telling a story about it (which always perpetuates it). And....svisj (Norwegian)...by letting go, (by experiencing it directly) she dived into the source of all feelings: Consciousness. One of the qualities of consciousness is love. (Correct me if this doesn't fit with your experience, Shanti)
Shanti wrote:
quote:
I am in love with nature...
Bathe in it, Shanti! Pretty fantastic; isn't it - to be in your very own love?
May all your Nows be Here |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 10:18:37 AM
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quote:
It is very human to want to hold on to a positive state like that. However - it is that "holding on" that is the problem
Yup. Holding on is an illusion, anyway. We have no power to hold on to anything; the universe is ever dynamic, and we have no choice but to relax and be carried along with it, come what may. We can, as I say, relax into it and be carried, or we can fight it and be carried. Either way, we're carried. Might as well stop fighting, grasping, and recoiling from this flow. It's utter futility, and happiness comes at the point of open-hearted acceptance of What Is.
See this: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=922 |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 10:27:18 AM
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| Pema Chodron writes a lot about leaning into the pain; not pushing it away, but letting it envelope you and be your teacher. And, as Ether alluded to, there are no 'good' events or 'bad' events - the labels only reflect our preference for pleasure over pain. All events are created equal! When we reflect on the events of our life, it's generally (always?) those which were the most difficult to endure which brought us closer to our true selves. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 10:50:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
Pema Chodron writes a lot about leaning into the pain; not pushing it away, but letting it envelope you and be your teacher. And, as Ether alluded to, there are no 'good' events or 'bad' events - the labels only reflect our preference for pleasure over pain. All events are created equal! When we reflect on the events of our life, it's generally (always?) those which were the most difficult to endure which brought us closer to our true selves.
There are many ways I prefer Buddhism to the Hindu and/or yoga models/approaches. This isn't one of them.
If you lean into pain, learn from pain, reflect on how pain has helped, etc etc, you're still highly engaged with the pleasure/pain dichotomy. And it's a false dichotomy.
What is, is. The labeling of things that attract and things that repel (good/bad, pleasure/pain, etc) is an overlay that happens after the moment. It's the mind's post-processing of experience. If you move into the moment, and exist closer to the edge of actual experience (which practices like AYP eventually allow you to do), the very underpinnings disappear, because this post-processing isn't given a chance to occur.
That said, if, along the way, notions like this offer comfort, I'm all for it. But that's all it is - comfort...it's not a "practice", and can't be compared to the greater solution which comes from meditation. It's important to bear in mind that as long as you're "working with" the issue of suffering", you're strengthening the grip of an insubstantial vaporous illusion. Sometimes you've got to do that - to go the wrong way when suffering badly, just to get through the day. If not, I'd suggest letting it go. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 19 2006 10:56:44 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 10:57:19 AM
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| Meg, I've been doing massive editing on that, but am done now. I know you're "live" online now, so you may want to reread. Sorry for all my neurotic editing! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 19 2006 10:57:33 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 11:44:31 AM
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Hey Alvin, for the first time in my life, I don't really care if this feeling stays or not. One thing I realized with being hopelessly down, and then high up like this.. its not in my control what I feel.. The cause of my sorrow I don't know, the cause of my happiness I don't know.. will this stay I don't know.. so I am not going to worry about it any more.
I am just going to flow with it.. never tried that before.. so I am going to give it a try.. The thing that helped me was something small Jim told me.. "try not to live in your head.. bring your awareness to your heart or navel".. I tried it just once.. and I felt different.. now I have been looking at things from my heart.. everything looks different... sort of giving my head a break.. This morning I started reading the book "Power of Now".. surprisingly it tells something similar.. watch your mind.. don't participate in it.. or don't let your mind take over you... live in the present.. if you are walking up the stairs look at the stairs.. each step you take and so on... nice huh? By bringing my awareness to my heart I have stopped thinking the way I generally do.. maybe that has made a difference... It has worked for now.. how long will it stay.. only time will tell.. but right now I am happy .. my meditation is blissful.. I don't see lights inside me.. I don't see my spinal nerve, I don't hear any buzzing, I don't feel any expansion in me.. for the first time I don't care.. I just love "i am".. I just love the peace.. and that is all I want for now.. if anything else follows good.. if not, I will take this as my limit for this life time.. as long as Yogani promises me that this will go with me to my next life time...
Sorry I got carried away.. Yes Katrine..
quote:
Pretty fantastic; isn't it - to be in your very own love?
It is so much easier being your own love.. so much less demanding...
Truthfully, I did not know how beautiful nature really is... I don't know who to thank for putting me here.. Yogani, all of you, God.. well whoever helped me.. Thank YOU.. from my heart ...
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 11:49:45 AM
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Katrine wrote:
quote:
A mental state does not exist in itself. That is a fiction of imagination. A state of being, however, (more like what Shanti is experiencing as love) will propel you into the moment. It is very human to want to hold on to a positive state like that. However - it is that "holding on" that is the problem. Life is continuous change. The source of life - consciousness - is changeless. Yet, it is an alive changelessness. Anything that flows from it is in change. The instant my mind grasps to hold on, that very instant I lose contact with it.
I think I got it. Although it doesn't mean that I can DO (or actually, undo) it. Everytime I'm in a "bad" state, I would feel frustrated and confused. I hate those moments. I keep finding ways to create a better state, and yet because I am too attracted to that, that I fail to live my life; that I fail to appreciate what's happening at the moment.
But, I have no control over my frustration and confusion. I just don't know what to do when it happens. What to do at THAT moment.
quote:
And, as Ether alluded to, there are no 'good' events or 'bad' events - the labels only reflect our preference for pleasure over pain. All events are created equal!
This is a good reminder. But merely knowing it doesn't change me well. When I feel restless and worry a lot, I just couldn't live well even though I KNOW such feelings are nothing but some stupid signals. My brain would stop working because of the feelings, and then to avoid any feeling of emptiness, I will look for SOMETHING to do. Like reading stupid and meaningless news which I don't really enjoy. My mind refuse to do what has to be done at the moment. I KNOW its trick, though I don't fully understand. And I could not force it to work for me. In fact, the more I force it, the more it refuses to co-operate. More anger and uneasiness build up. And yet, without some displine(for me sometimes it means some forcing, when my mind refuse to work at urgent moment) , aren't we just following our stupid mind and emotions? How to get a balance --- to do our duties and without forcing, when our mind refuse to work? Our future will be shaped by what we do at this moment. How could we let go of everything?
For me, some of my behaviour are really puzzling to me. For example, I would not sleep til very late even though I know it's bad for me. But my mind don't want the day to end. There seems to be "something" to do. And yet there isn't any. My mind just feel something is still missing, and want me to feed it. But I can't communicate with it. I don't know what it want. I try to just FEEL the feelings, but to what end? Feeling it usually doesn't make it disappear.. |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Mar 19 2006 12:00:44 PM |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 11:55:12 AM
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Meg and Ether,
If you’re interested in dark matter, there is a good article on Einstein and his theories including dark matter and dark energy in the May 2005 National Geographic magazine. Your library may have it.
Cosmologists are speculating that ours isn’t the only universe. Some of the points of the article state:
• There are an infinite number of beginnings and sequences of universes.
• Relativity implies that time/space can stretch to vast dimensions from a tiny starting point
• Each big bang is the start of a new universe and no two will be alike. The laws of physics will work differently in each universe. They will have different forms of matter and varying numbers of dimensions.
The article goes on to day that the substance that holds galaxies together and keeps stars from flying apart is known to scientists as ‘dark matter’. They think it is like a web-like structure or scaffolding and galaxies form at the densest part of the dark matter. The article says that dark matter‘s gravity wrinkles time and space and bends light rays. They estimate dark matter makes up to 90 percent of the universe’s mass.
Measurements indicate the stretching, expansion of the universe is speeding up and in some twenty billion years all matter in the universe could be torn apart, down to the atoms comprising it. The energy counteracting gravity is called “dark energy” and may ultimately be stronger than the forces that hold the universe together.
“A cosmic web of dark matter is now thought to have governed where galaxies formed. Dark matter if the universe’s hidden architecture, and gravitational lensing is one of the few practical ways to see it. An effect Einstein thought insignificant has become a key astronomical tool”.
“Theorists have dusted off his discarded cosmological constant.” Astronomers are beginning to think that one of Einstein’s biggest blunders was actually one of his greatest successes. This constant Einstein saw as a way to steady the universe, but if its repulsive effect (dark energy) was strong enough, it would accelerate the spreading apart of the universe.
It goes on to talk about the ‘theory of everything’. Good article, worth the time to read.
Light and Love,
Kathy
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 12:06:52 PM
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| Jim - yes, morning is my live online time. Okay, point well taken that "If you lean into pain, learn from pain, reflect on how pain has helped, etc etc, you're still highly engaged with the pleasure/pain dichotomy." Ideally we do well to move toward the goal of nondifferentiation between pleasure and pain; we aim for that. But in practice it's a knee-jerk reaction to pull away from that which creates friction. It can't be helped, like a hand that pulls away from a flame. We can LEARN to counter this, and treat all events equally, and I think that's what Pema Chodron is all about - teaching people like me how to do just that (or if not how, why). The 'leaning in to' may seem excessive and unnecessary, but it's only to counterbalance our natural tendency to pull away from. Eventually there is just the firm, grounded stance when facing all and everything. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 12:25:50 PM
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| Thanks for the lead, Kathy. You should apply for a position at the new Dark Matter Institute in the Silicon Valley! :) |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 1:20:05 PM
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Meg, without getting into a theological/intellectual big thing over this (makes my brain hurt), Chodron IS suggesting this as a full-blown spiritual practice. I'm going to mammothly over-simplify here, but Tibetan Buddhists try to "break themselves of the habit" of deeming things good or bad by learning to embrace and desensitize to "the bad stuff". It's also what drives a lot of ascetics (seen most extremely in a few sadhus in India who eat uncooked human corpses, which to my understanding is a way of "working into" the mindset of no barriers, no taboos, nothing in the universe unembraced).
It's an understandable tack, and far more spiritually advanced people than I have pursued it. But, in my opinion and my limited view, it's not worth taking a lifetime to open yourself up to things one by one, diligently examining and challenging assumptions about what attracts and what repels. I opt to simply let go of the entire categorization process and let it fade into its own vaporousness. I'm not a believer in going left to balance a tendency to go right. I'd rather just float and lose all tendencies into the Now.
I prefer not to dance with delusion in order to dispel it, and I don't consider such work an effective launching pad to dropping the whole thing. The muck is the muck, and I'd prefer to transcend it rather than to muck around in it, patching and repairing. This is what, if I understand correctly, AYP teaches.
Don't just do something....STAND THERE! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 19 2006 1:36:54 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 1:41:54 PM
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Meg said:
Pema Chodron writes a lot about leaning into the pain; not pushing it away, but letting it envelope you and be your teacher.
I've been agreeing with you all the way Meg, on this issue. I see Pema Chodron's advice here as advice on a matter of tactics. I have found this insight from Buddhism to be very helpful.
I've found it to be a good departure from (and good counterweight to) the common yogic emphasis on 'bliss'.
Jim said:
There are many ways I prefer Buddhism to the Hindu and/or yoga models/approaches. This isn't one of them.
If you lean into pain, learn from pain, reflect on how pain has helped, etc etc, you're still highly engaged with the pleasure/pain dichotomy. And it's a false dichotomy.
If there is no engagement with the pleasure/pain dichotomy, no spiritual practice will be found to be necessary or entertained. So to suggest that people who do Pema Chodron's practice are still highly engaged with the pleasure pain-dichotomy is almost a tautology: anyone who is in any spiritual practice is "still highly engaged with the pleasure/pain dichotomy". So let's not single out Pema Chodron's advice because those who practice it are engaged in a pleasure-pain dichotomy.
Jim said:
Chodron IS suggesting this as a full-blown spiritual practice
She's giving some advice. Is there a distinction between a full-blown spiritual practice and some advice on how to reverse some negative habits which arise out of excessive resistance to pain?
I don't know what it is, or if she makes it. I certainly don't.
One more bit for your hurt head, Jim.  If it hurts your head, try leaning into it.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 19 2006 1:59:16 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 2:29:51 PM
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David, no issue with Chodron, his advice, or Meg's recommending it. As I said above, whatever gets people through a bit of heavy suffering is good.
I'm just suggesting that people who delve into such things consider and bear in mind my perspective that they're grappling with ghosts, and that it is possible to escape the delusion. That escape doesn't require enlightenment....a lot of it happens before (I'm nowhere near enlightened, however I suffer only like 10% as much as I used to). So this transcendence is much closer to hand than people think. In fact, it may (with AYP) be faster than delving into the muck to make adjustements therein. Oh, and my explanation of the post-processing was intended to give a little hint/nudge.
That's all. Nothing more. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 19 2006 2:40:56 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 5:59:39 PM
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Shanti, I'm so delighted for you, this love is truely all we need.
Louis
(This post was edited by Sparkle because he considered the content irrelevant to the thread) |
Edited by - Sparkle on Mar 20 2006 12:14:34 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 7:18:35 PM
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quote:
Alvin said:
Although it doesn't mean that I can DO (or actually, undo) it. Everytime I'm in a "bad" state, I would feel frustrated and confused. I hate those moments. I keep finding ways to create a better state, and yet because I am too attracted to that, that I fail to live my life; that I fail to appreciate what's happening at the moment.
But, I have no control over my frustration and confusion. I just don't know what to do when it happens. What to do at THAT moment.
Alvin my heart goes out to you. I went through this feeling of helplessness for years. I guess I told you before that I lost too much of my life to this feeling.. always looking for something to make my life better.. feeling sorry for myself, trying analyze and reason with depression, why ME... I think by doing this I was feeding the monster.. Truthfully, I don't even know if I am really over it.. the breakdown I had a week back was a reminder of where I could be.. and where I was.. for many years of my life. I wish I could wave a magic wand and tell you.. there its all better now.. but I don't have one. All I will tell you is meditate and do spinal breathing... these are the only 2 things that worked for me. Talk to us whenever you are feeling low.. read books that inspire you.. listen to music.. Go for a walk. One book that inspired me a lot was "Many Lives Many Masters" by Brian Weiss. The line that stuck in my head was.."everything is energy.. so much of it is wasted when we fear the present"... really.. so much wasted energy.. so much is lost to depression.
Alvin, I know none of this is really helping.. but just stick to it, just stay with the "i am".. on a day you need extra help, talk to us.. this will go away.. I know it will...
Here is a big (((((HUG)))) to make it a little better... Smile always... even when it hurts.. (I know, not everyone here will agree with me on that.. just try it.. smile).
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2006 : 02:33:53 AM
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Alvin wrote:
quote:
But, I have no control over my frustration and confusion. I just don't know what to do when it happens. What to do at THAT moment.
Yes, Alvin. This is it. You still think you should know what "to do" when THAT happens. Meditation slowly trained my mind to accept this "not knowing". One day I simply got it (worn out and tired of my own stryggles): I WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT TO DO !
How does that make you feel?
Whatever it is - this feeling is what you are running from. And as long as you run, it will keep following you. Sit down. Be still. And watch it instead. Get to know it. Is it there at all? Can you pinpoint it? Can it exist without the story you tell about it?
The reason it took me so long was the fact that I didn't trust nature. I thought I was on my own,- cut off from the rest of the universe. Meditation slowly increased my awareness. I slowly became aware of subtle things. Slowly I started to accept that there was in fact something in me/around me that I had not seen or felt before. I didn't accept it because I was told to. I accepted it because of what I experienced.
Alvin. You are right where you are.
May all your Nows be Here |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2006 : 1:10:26 PM
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| alvin, my boat plys the same waters. accept the now i am in, meditate daily and peace becomes the moment, is the course i choose to accept :) i shall have no other god before me speaks of sloughing off old associations within. they are eddys i still drift into; but the water still sparkles as i dip my paddle in awe of the beauty of the moment... peace and love |
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I am in love again...
