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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 05:01:47 AM
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Hi everyone,
I have snipped a few times, and the frenum membrane (it's also the tautest point) is now closer to my tongue. Since I cannot hold my tongue firmly in a fixed position, I'm founding it harder and harder to snip safely and effectively. I have come up with a method (in my mind only) a few minutes ago, after a not-very-successful snipping. I would like to hear from your guys whether it would work:
Use a plastic tube, and suck very much like that in another thread (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=611), but here we make a slit on one side. It would not be possible to suck up the tongue if there's a slit, so the length of the slit can't be too long. Or, may be we can place our thumb sealed with saliva when we suck it up. (?? probably too ideal...) Then the frenum or those fibers in the center will be squeezed out from the slit (hopefully....). And together with the very stable position held possible only with the tube, we can do whatever we want with those fibers (if things work well...).
There are some variations, like having a "cross slit" so that the snipper/scissor can get into the position more easily from the horizontal slit.
Maybe someone has tried or think about this already. Any comments are welcomed. I really have difficulty in fixing my tongue in one position, either by itself or with the help of fingers.
Alvin
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 09:54:21 AM
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Alvin, I just can't say about the tube. Maybe it would work well, maybe not.
Have you checked out what I called 'grasp-and-clip' at the start of the 'tooled talavya' post?
Here is the technique:
What I started to realize is that I could make a nice, careful cut in the frenum by grabbing some frenum between my thumb and index finger of my left hand (I am right-handed) and using a little pressure between finger and thumb to make a thin vertical ridge of frenum. Then, while still holding this little ridge of frenum with my left hand, I brought the cuticle-snipper in with my right hand and clipped that ridge just above the finger and thumb that were holding it. I was careful not to make the ridge so big, or try to clip so much that the cuticle-snipper would not cut through it all in one clip. I did this while looking in the mirror at it all so I could see what I was doing.
Whereas I was using this method to make a larger clip, there is no reason to use it that way. You can make a nice small thin ridge and clip that.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 10 2006 10:00:11 AM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 10:26:37 AM
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Yes I've read that. And i've tried. The problem is that I can't "make a thin vertical ridge of frenum" with my bare fingers and still see clearly where the snipper is! There's not much room in my mouth. When two fingers are holding the frenum, there's no more room for the snipper. And the tongue is slippery to hold firmly and squeeze, too.
I wonder who you can actually do that! Maybe I misunderstand what you wrote?
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 10:38:25 AM
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Yes, it isn't easy, but maybe not as hard as you think. The angle and line of sight is tight. Do open the mouth as wide as possible.
The hard bit is probably not getting the grip of a thin ridge; as you mention, you seem to be able to do this. By the way, you can try drying the underside of your tongue for better grip if you want(though you'll have limited time before the saliva starts to wet it).
The hard bit is using the right hand to get the snipper over the gripping left hand without obscuring the gripped ridge of frenum. This can be done though --- the right hand slides the clipper OVER the gripping fingers of the left hand and keeps itself down and out of the way. It does require holding the clipper lower down on the handle, so that it is the clipper (not the fingers of the right hand) that extends over the gripping fingers of the left hand. The fingers of your right hand would obscure your view, but the clipper is small and thin enought not to. As usual, you may need to tilt your head up a little while looking in the mirror.
I just updated the 'tooled talavya' post with this tip.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 10 2006 11:54:55 AM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 10:48:28 AM
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| I see. I can still do that right now, but it would not make much difference as I don't intend to go as fast as you did. But I wonder whether this method would help when the frenum membrane get very close the the tongue surface. (which is happening gradually). The fibers there are very crucial in limiting my tongue movements yet I am finding it more and more dangerous to snip. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 11:48:27 AM
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Alvin, BTW, I refined what I said after you replied, so you may want to re-read.
The method I described does not need to be used for fast clipping.
Alvin said:
But I wonder whether this method would help when the frenum membrane get very close the the tongue surface. (which is happening gradually). The fibers there are very crucial in limiting my tongue movements yet I am finding it more and more dangerous to snip.
Yes, when the natural ridge that the frenum makes on the tongue starts to dissolve away due to snipping, it can be hard to catch frenum in the clipper. This technique helps you to do that.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 11:58:38 AM
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quote:
Yes, when the natural ridge that the frenum makes on the tongue starts to dissolve away due to snipping, it can be hard to catch frenum in the clipper. This technique helps you to do that.
I have to wait until my frenum dissolve more before I could try whether it works. But I think if 2 of my left hand fingers are put inside my mouth, then since they occupy much space, I will ALWAYS be cutting the upper part of the frenum. I try a rehearsal today and find that I don't have much choice to snip if the left hand fingers are there...
By the way, I am curious to know your progress on Kechari, since it's quite a few months after you devised your 'tooled talavya'. Did you cut enough to make an observable extension now? If so, how much more can you stretch now?
Like you, I am disadvantaged on this particular practice. Today, I talked to a yoga teacher from India. God, he's in stage 3 without cutting anything! I looked at his tongue, he has no frenum membrane at all, and I can't even see any restricting fibers. (Although there certainly some, but not on the surface) I expect that even when my frenum membrane are all gone, I will still have much to cut and stretch before I can get to what he's in now.
Alvin |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Mar 15 2006 12:00:00 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 1:04:29 PM
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Alvin said:
But I think if 2 of my left hand fingers are put inside my mouth, then since they occupy much space, I will ALWAYS be cutting the upper part of the frenum.
I see. Do you have a small jaw, or can you not open your mouth so wide? You might want to do some drills where you open your mouth as wide as you can.
Ironically, part of the problem here may be a tongue that cannot stretch much, and which cannot be pushed far up. As you snip more, this problem will go away, and you'll be able to move your grip further down on the frenum.
By the way, I am curious to know your progress on Kechari, since it's quite a few months after you devised your 'tooled talavya'. Did you cut enough to make an observable extension now? If so, how much more can you stretch now?
Yes, I can get well into stage 3 now. I can now apply pressure anywhere along the septum ridge. Earlier there were parts of it I could only skim. It's hard to give figures to that in terms of tongue extension.
Today, I talked to a yoga teacher from India. God, he's in stage 3 without cutting anything! I looked at his tongue, he has no frenum membrane at all, and I can't even see any restricting fibers.
A small number of people are born with a very non-limiting frenum. But I think most of them who don't 'cut' and get into stage 3 do 'talavya kriya', which is actually a kind of slow abrasion/cutting, though they don't conceive of it as such.
It's 'Hey look at me, I don't cut with an artificial sharp tool, I scrape with my natural blunt teeth'.  Actually, it's a fine way to do it.
Find out if he does/did talavya kriya, and how long he has been doing it.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 15 2006 1:09:52 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 3:59:33 PM
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Melissa, what happened? Did you take too big a chunk? Or did it just hurt?
Stretching will only get you a few millimeters max and then you reach a limit.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 10:51:08 AM
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| I get sore too after a snip very close to the tongue surface (and upper, nearer to the tongue tips) Not much blood, as I am careful enough to pull the fiber out (by using the snipper)before I apply force to snip it. But very uncomfortable and sore now. The aligment of my frenum membrane changed considerably after this snip. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 11:54:18 AM
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So, David, am I correct that you gain 2 stages within one year? And you said that you're disadvantaged on this. So afterall if one is willing to snip heavily, progress could be that fast???
Also, did you share already the benefits/effects you got from kechari? I mean something more concrete and measurable (hopefully there are some?) in stead of just "better energy flow" or similar things which are too vague.
By the way, energy seems to have too much meaning: in daily language "higher energy level" could mean one don't feel tired as easily as before (say during physical exercises or mental activities). This is more measurable, objective and helpful. With this definition of "energy", You can be sure it's a good thing. But in yoga very often it means some subjective feelings, which are not as helpful. (though still interesting. And I know the feelings are real---they're just not very helpful.) |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2006 : 10:07:25 AM
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Alvin asked:
So, David, am I correct that you gain 2 stages within one year? And you said that you're disadvantaged on this. So afterall if one is willing to snip heavily, progress could be that fast???
Yes. I had a very limiting and very fat frenum, and it's been about a year and I am far enough for stage three.
This fast snipping is not for everyone by any means.
I'll try to answer your energy question later. I'm extra busy and can't answer questions that require thinking!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 17 2006 10:08:26 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2006 : 5:11:22 PM
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| They have a thing for electronics that is a very small hook with an opposing thing so it can grasp a small wire. I wonder if that would help? |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2006 : 5:49:24 PM
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| hi Alvin. i don't recall, can you get your tongue up there at all? i was lucky and could perform kechari without too much problem. once i got up there i just kept stretching and holding- didn't want to snip. i hope you find success with kechari soon as you certainly have the passion. i'm certainly not saying don't snip.. just rooting for you :o) |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 01:13:02 AM
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It is appreciated that you answer at all when you're busy, David.
Etherfish, it sounds rather promising!! In fact, the main problem of snipping in later stages, I believe, is to hold the fibers out so that they could be cut without snipping too much of our flesh. The only concern I've is that whether such tools are safe to put into my mouth. I worry that since they're roughly made(unlike a cutticle snipper which are for snipping skins) , the metals may be of low quality and some (possibly neuro-toxic) metals/materials may go into my body!!
As you probably know already, currently I'm using the cutticle snipper as the "hook". I pull the fibers out by applying a gentle force before I cut it hard. The hook is a really nice, easily available idea. (at least as I imagine...) Just need to find a clean one made with good metals!
Alan, do you mean you're in stage 2 or beyond without snipping? Among those I know personally, no one (except that indian yoga teacher who has spent 6 years in monastry) have that luck! After around five snips, I'm still in stage one. The fibers is getting more and more underneath the flesh and things will become more difficult. |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Mar 18 2006 01:25:36 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 01:37:26 AM
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Melissa - I once cut too much, as you just did, and my tongue ached for days. It slowed me down a lot. I don't think there's a reason to go so fast, so I backed off considerably. Now I snip about once a week, a good amount, but I no longer put my tongue in traction.  There's something just weird about mutilating oneself in order to hurry the process along. It's like driving like a maniac through traffic, cutting people off and running red lights, just so you can get home to meditate. |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 02:17:06 AM
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hey Alvin, how's it goin'? yes, i guess i'm lucky i don't think it's all that rare, is it? within a couple weeks i was erect to the top of the pharynx and exploring the clefts in the rocks (nasal passages). i've backed off some now and mostly just sit up there resting against the septum like it's home. it's like a little space that the attention gets whisked away into. that's what i feel anyway. i'd suggest maybe taking it easy on yourself and let it unfold as you apply your efforts with patience. i don't know, but maybe that will help things fall into place. but really, you're the master of your reality and will do what you must. i admire your passion. peace and love, alan |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 02:22:08 AM
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| BTW; i forgot to mention, my practice is deep and fruitful even without kechari; first stage seems to have some conductivity, maybe just from pointing in the right direction? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 12:54:51 PM
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Meg said:
There's something just weird about mutilating oneself in order to hurry the process along. It's like driving like a maniac through traffic, cutting people off and running red lights, just so you can get home to meditate.
Hey, watch it Meg!  One of my friends, a rather orthodox but not ultra-orthodox jew, explained to me (as a joke) that religious judaism is a ladder -- and whatever rung you are on, you can see that the guy above you is a fanatic, and the guy below you isn't a real jew at all.
So let it not be among the Kecharibans of AYP. A person who does not clip at all, might describe you as mutilating yourself, or driving like a maniac.
Maybe I'm not driving like a maniac, but rather, getting into a helicopter and leaving all the traffic behind. To do what I have done you need both the motivation to move fast, and to have a helicopter at your disposal. But there have been no run-red lights and no car-crashes in my wake.
With regards, 
-D |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 18 2006 1:57:58 PM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 1:32:16 PM
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hi Alan-- Sounds you are doing really great. I think it's really rare to have a tongue like yours. By the way, how long have you been doing yoga (or something similar)?
If stage one is fine for me, I won't be snipping that quick. But no-- even stage one is not a comfortable place to stay in. It requires some efforts and that would distract my attention if I do it during my sitting practices. Also, if there's any conductivity, my effort on holding the tongue and the stretching of the frenum certainly outweight the effects. Frankly speaking there's not much noticeable effects if I stay in stage one. Shambhavi is much more ecstatic for me now.
It's still a loooonnnng way to go... |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 6:23:23 PM
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how goes it tongue-master Alvin? 
you're right. stage one is cumbersome after awhile. i guess really what i do at times is nothing with my tongue; but usually i'm always in kechari. it's second nature now.
i mentioned somewhere around here that i've been practicing a form of Kriya Yoga for about six months. it's a gentle, easy approach where we deal primarily with the medulla to heart pranic breathing. when the Master, or Guru within, becomes one's breath, then the rest comes after that of it's own accord. Love |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 8:57:22 PM
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Alvin wrote:
"the metals may be of low quality and some (possibly neuro-toxic) metals/materials may go into my body"
Yes I didn't think of that. If you want to explore that avenue, they have instruments they use in surgery called "nerve hooks". There are all different shapes, and the purpose is to hook and move nerves out of the way from where the surgeons are working. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 11:01:38 PM
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Alvin said:
The only concern I've is that whether such tools are safe to put into my mouth. I worry that since they're roughly made(unlike a cutticle snipper which are for snipping skins) , the metals may be of low quality and some (possibly neuro-toxic) metals/materials may go into my body!!
I wouldn't expect much of a risk there. I don't think instruments such as those tend to leak toxic metals. The gripping head is probably made from good ol' cheap strong nontoxic steel. You could probably find out from the manufacturer what it's made of if you want to be sure.
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 9:16:13 PM
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| hi Alvin; hey i really do wish you well with kechari. i shall consider my good fortune a blessing. peace, alan |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 09:45:24 AM
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I didn't know about that Norman Paulson book--thanks for the tip!
Here's a brainstorm: instead of grabbing the frenum with the fingers, how about wrapping the tips of a needle nose pair of pliers with gauze? I've not tried it, but it might could be an improvement.
If snipping feels hazardous and painful, don't do it--honor your guidance. Only you know if it's the right thing for you.
-Yoda |
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A suggested method for snipping??
