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Ajita
Netherlands
19 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 04:49:30 AM
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Dear David Obsidian and Yogani,
You are right. It is not possible to practice (only) with the statement I made about the basic principle. However the practical explanation I give in the second chapter of my free Hatha Yoga Pradipika on my website www.raja-yoga.org is so clear and easy that it is completely in accordance with your vision of the spreading of knowledge nowadays.
Your doubt can only be removed if you make the download. And your expert view would be of benefit for the masses. The president of the Yoga Federation of India, Shri K.C. Sharma, in each case, was overwhelmed. He said to me that he was very happy to meet me and that my tremendous discovery would profit all Yoga practitioners, but also cause pain to many.
Yours friendly,
Shri Yogacharya Ajita |
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Ajita
Netherlands
19 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 05:01:13 AM
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Dear Yogani and David Obsidian,
You are right. It is not possible to practice with the basic principle I gave. But reading the second chapter of my free Hatha Yoga Pradipika, that you can download from my website www.raja-yoga.org, you will agree that my explanation of Pranayama is as clear and simple as you wish.
Yours friendly,
Shri Yogacharya Ajita |
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frank
Netherlands
4 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2006 : 2:50:16 PM
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Ajita's Method of Samyama and –Pranajama:
It is everybody’s, Ajita is not the owner of this method. |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2006 : 9:01:47 PM
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Perhaps secrecy is the element that makes individuals untrustworthy, in the eyes of those who would withhold information to protect others.
In the same way, a child can be lead to project gratification onto an item the parents hide away. The child sees it as an adult thing and so plays with it under grandiose ideas. A gun, for example.
On the flip side, the gun shouldn't be stored in the child's toybox.
I really enjoyed this thread, as well as the link. The ying/yang image, in alignment with the human body was a breathtaking sight for me.
Yogani, I was delighted when I found this site, and I find more and more support from it as days go by. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 12:05:52 PM
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I have read Ajita's version of the HYP (as well as his Subtle Anatomy book), and it's confusing. For instance, instead of actually performing stomach cleansing, he suggests to imagine that you're doing it. Instead of physically performing kechari mudra, he suggests the following:
quote:
The exercise of Khecari Mudra consists of mentally lengthening the sattvic element of water, stretching its normal limits, touching Chandra Bindu, somewhere about fifteen centimeters above the crown of your head, while on the other end, you connect the sattvic element of water to the smaller sattvic earth element.
And he also says it's a trap for people to cut the frenum...that it was intended to keep unworthy people from doing the actual practices. He justifies this by saying that it's a violent act to cut the frenum, and it would obviously go against the code of non-violence. Yet that gets me thinking: why would Svatmarama go against the code of truthfulness? It doesn't add up.
There are other things about his interpretations of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika which don't add up. For instance, he wrote that "during the beginning of pranayama practice, milk and ghee should be taken" translates to mean you should have a balanced diet. In the little experience I have with physiology, it's obvious that calcium and lipids play a big role in nerve functioning...so why misinterpret the original text? It says milk and ghee for a reason.
I want to believe what Ajita says, but it's hard when it seems to me that there are clear mistakes he's made in his understanding of the text.
Also, his book Subtle Anatomy may be true or it may not be true. It's like someone telling me about unicorns living on Atlantis...I'm not going to believe it til I experience it for myself. I didn't see the usefulness of the book.
It seems like Ajita is a great guy, though. He teaches what he knows directly to students, and doesn't charge but rather accepts donations (as far as I can tell). It seems, after overviewing his courses and their content, that you spend a lot of time each day in practice. Hours.
I'd like to talk to someone who has gone through the courses with him. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 2:03:28 PM
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Namaste! Greetings to All!
I have followed this discussion with interest, and acknowledge valid points made on all sides of the topic at hand. Nonetheless, much of what has been posted has very little to do with the practice of any method of pranayama, IMO, but instead has more to do with intellectual, egoistic attachments to personal preferences and opinions regarding pranayama. Shouldn't we all be striving for separation from sectarian, personal discriminations and value judgements of this sort? 
Within the yoga community at large, not just here, some say that "the practitioner can only be as good as the method they practice". Certainly, even the most gifted and naturally talented sadhaka might not attain a high level of spiritual development or skill solely through their own bests efforts, regardless of their teacher or method, so what then are the realistic chances of a high achievement for a less gifted or talented practitioner?
Although there may be some merit to this kind of thinking, something is missing in such a perspective. It overlooks one very important fact, IMO. Namely, that the mere striving for Union with God through earnest Sadhana allows each of us to be led according to our individual capabilities, by the Grace of God, until we reach Samadhi, regardless of our faults or shortcomings, regardless of our talent or intelligence, regardless of the methods we practice, since all things are possible for God!
See you at the top!
Hari Om!
Doc
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Edited by - Doc on Nov 01 2006 12:46:19 AM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 2:40:49 PM
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Doc,
quote:
Nonetheless, much of what has been posted has very little to do with the practice of any method of pranayama, IMO, but instead has more to do with intellectual egoistic attachments to personal preferences and opinions regarding pranayama.
Kechari mudra doesn't have much to do with pranayama practices. But if that's what you were referring to...there is a clear difference between putting your tongue up through your nasal pharynx and reaching the hole where the cerebral spinal fluid is, versus imagining your sense of taste extending 15 cm above your head. One has a certain effect, and the other doesn't have the same effect. Or: there is a big difference between swallowing a cloth versus imagining you are swallowing a cloth. When the Hatha Yoga Pradipika was written, there was one way to go about practicing these things. Who is right...Ajita or AYP? I don't know. I think that's up to each person to find out for themselves.
quote:
Shouldn't we all be striving for separation from sectarian personal discriminations and value judgements of this sort?
I don't have anything against Ajita, or what he does...so it wasn't a sectarian personal discrimination. In fact, I think he seems like a promising teacher. He seems like a great person.
But it's necessary to make judgements when there are so many things which are just plain wrong, which can be distracting to the yogi. It's a big claim that Ajita makes when he says he has uncovered the true practices of Hatha Yoga...he is saying that the way a number of techniques are practiced here is false.
Now, that may be true. I'm not sure just yet. But what I'm sure of is that there is a right way to practice these techniques and a wrong way. Doing it Ajita's way won't produce the same results as doing it the AYP way. I don't know what results Ajita's way produces...it could be all he says it is: perfect. I hope I didn't make his teaching seem absolutely wrong...because I don't really know what's wrong or what's right.
I see no reason to start a little duel between AYP and his organization...that would obviously go nowhere useful. What I was hoping to do in posting my review was provide somewhat of an overview so people wouldn't have to read through his books like I did. It takes a long time to read through them. Just like if someone came to the forums and said "I can't read through all the lessons here" I'd help them out by summarizing it. Contrasting it against different schools of thought.
I don't think I was being unreasonable. I've certainly got a big ego and I'm full of delusions, but I try not to convey that in my reviews of things. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 3:01:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
...the mere striving for Union with God through earnest Sadhana allows each of us to be led according to our individual capabilities, by the Grace of God, until we reach Samadhi, regardless of our faults or shortcomings, regardless of our talent or intelligence, regardless of the methods we practice, since all things are possible for God! See you at the top! Hari Om! Doc
Hi Doc:
Agreed 100%. If we are dedicated enough, we can build a house with any set of tools. The principles of human spiritual transformation are fairly generous. At the same time, without enough of them being effectively applied in concert, making progress can be a long grind. Even so, bhakti alone will eventually get us there -- like the little train engine that could, you know: "I think I can ... I think I can ... I think I can..."
Bhakti (devotion to our ideal, put into action) is the fuel for all spiritual progress. Beyond that, it boils down to methods, and the more of those we have access to the better, as far as I'm concerned. Not that we can practice everything without a logical plan -- that won't work. Basic understandings of the efficient integration of the various classes of practice (eight limbs, right?) and self-pacing are necessary. Even without these understandings, the intensely determined aspirant will not fail -- such is the power of bhakti. In the latter case, there may be a considerable frying along the way, but the heart-on-fire bhakti yogi/yogini will not care much (a la the Secrets of Wilder).
Nevertheless, the rest of us will prefer a more stable and bearable journey, while at the same time not getting bogged down in excessive "safety measures" along the way. So, the trick is to be hot with bhakti, use the best tools we can find, and learn to practice within our comfortable limits over the long term. With that, anyone can do this. And finding ways that can make it possible for anyone to do it is a worthy goal, I think.
AYP is not intended to be a final or complete answer in all of this. Just an open source "best shot" at making it as easy, effective and safe as possible. I'm sure improvements and variations will abound in the future, as they have up until now. Let's hope so. The last thing we need is another static system of practices. That is why we keep the discussion as open and flexible as possible. Everyone has a valuable point of view. There is much to be learned from all of the dedicated practitioners, teachers and traditions on the planet. So much good work has been done. It is a joint effort.
Yet, in the end, we each must choose what works best for us. Around here, loyalty to a system will go only as far as its effectiveness. That is how it should be in a scientific approach -- the door is always open for improvement.
Here's to progress, by whatever means we can muster and hammer out for best results. It is by reviewing causes and effects and making the necessary adjustments along the way that we can optimize our momentum.
Thank you again for sharing, Ajita ... I hope we have not scared you off. 
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 3:20:06 PM
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Doc said:
Nonetheless, much of what has been posted has very little to do with the practice of any method of pranayama, IMO, but instead has more to do with intellectual egoistic attachments to personal preferences and opinions regarding pranayama. Shouldn't we all be striving for separation from sectarian personal discriminations and value judgements of this sort?
I didn't see much here that could be rightly construed as sectarian (unless Balance's admitted hastily-worded, and since retracted bit about throwing the book out, though I'd say that wasn't sectarianism either, just a hasty remark).
Sectarianism is actually mainly about status-and-power-search, whether for personal self, sect, or tradition, often at the expense of other person, sects or traditions.
Being interested in the truth and committed to finding it is not status-search or the 'attachment' that the sages would suggest we rid ourselves of; on the contrary, this focus on the truth is highly desirable and should be encouraged.
Sectarianism actually damages people's ability to enquire and critique properly, because they are heavily attached to their self/sect/tradition/silver-haired-daddy already being right.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 31 2006 3:28:03 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 3:22:13 PM
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I must duck out, felt it was the best thing to do. Again, sorry for making uninformed and hasty remarks. I hope I didn't cause any hurt. I meant no offense.
Alan |
Edited by - Balance on Oct 31 2006 3:26:22 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 4:57:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Yet, in the end, we each must choose what works best for us. Around here, loyalty to a system will go only as far as its effectiveness. That is how it should be in a scientific approach -- the door is always open for improvement.
Here's to progress, by whatever means we can muster and hammer out for best results. It is by reviewing causes and effects and making the necessary adjustments along the way that we can optimize our momentum.
The guru is in you.
Hello yogani!
These are excellent points. I totally agree with you.  The efficacy of any and all methods ultimately comes down to how 'user friendly' and duplicatable they are. All authentic, time-tested methods are only seemingly different paths up the same mountain anyway. As such, valuable practice tools and perspectives can be gleaned from many sources, since all authentic systems stem from, and are intended to lead back to, the Original Source of All That Is!
This perspective is the core idea which led Sri Ramakrishna to develop his Universal Yoga System after successfully achieving Nirvikalpa Samadhi by solely practicing the methods of Advaita Vedanta, Islam, and Orthodox Christianity separately.
In my previous post, I addressed my comments to all readers in general, naming no individual in particular. Thus, if anyone feels that I was addressing them specifically, perhaps they should consider my comments further in relation to their own personal sadhana. My sole purpose in posting these views is to encourage everyone to stay focused on the inner, spiritual priorities of yoga training, without getting side-tracked by the variable, external aspects of physical training, or by their intellectual analysis of same. 
I believe that all views are equally valid in discussion, but must be proven at some point through personal demonstration born of a dedicated sadhana! 
http://www.yogaoryam.com/images/Kundalini.jpg
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Nov 01 2006 01:15:24 AM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2006 : 5:17:00 PM
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Nice, Doc and yogani, and thanks for the advice and guidance!
I'd like to offer my respect and admiration for all paths that lead to God.
A belated welcome to you Doc
Alan |
Edited by - Balance on Oct 31 2006 5:20:59 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2006 : 4:53:17 PM
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Hello
I feel pretty bad about having jumped into this post and acting like a juvenile delinquent yesterday. I hadn't even read the beginning of the thread. I will try to be more careful, aware and thoughtful in the future. I also sent Ajita a note of apology in case he was in touch at the time. I'm sorry for the trouble.
Peace, Alan |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2006 : 5:18:10 PM
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It's okay, Alan.
One of the best educations in life can be found at "Foot-in-Mouth University." We are all in that school, you know.
In relation to that, inner silence and the yama/niyama it naturally brings up will not let us off the hook. You have clearly demonstrated your sensitivity in that ... an inspiring lesson for us all.
The guru is in you. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2006 : 6:36:57 PM
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"...inner silence and the yama/niyama it naturally brings up will not let us off the hook."
Boy you got that right! Whew! ;-) |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2006 : 10:07:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
...there is a clear difference between putting your tongue up through your nasal pharynx and reaching the hole where the cerebral spinal fluid is, versus imagining your sense of taste extending 15 cm above your head. One has a certain effect, and the other doesn't have the same effect. {quote]
Scott,
An odd, perhaps ironic, thing happened tonight when I read this part of your post, a post that I found, on the whole, basically reasonable and well considered. I tried the method of "imagining your sense of taste extending 15 cm above your head" (I had not heard of it before) and immediately, for the second time in my life, I tasted a sweetness like honey. It was accompanied by a strong steady surge of conductivity that lasted through the evening. I went to All Saints Night choral eucharist at the Episcopal Church across the street and I was in bliss. The organ music stroked my inner sensuality beyond anything I had felt before and the eucharistic host tasted like honey, even before I took it in my mouth (kneeling at the rail with my head bowed, the priest was holding the bread about 15 cm above my head when he said the words of blessing... an interesting coincidence/correlation, I thought. Many mystics before me have reported the honey taste of Eucharist).
Not having experienced Kechari, I cannot compare it. But I will say that last night when I told my wife that I had ordered a nipper and that I was planning to start snipping, she said it sounded like self mutilation. All this has me wondering, if I've already experienced what some people go for with Kechari, it might not be worth going through the stigma of snipping. Even so, I'm leaning Yogani's "God helps those who help themselves" direction in light of, among other things, his hymen comparison and his other suggestions about how it is such a fitting practice for people who, like me, have already started feeling conductivity.
B.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2006 : 10:33:41 PM
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Since Balance has brought it up again, I'll address this:
Scott said: And he also says it's a trap for people to cut the frenum...that it was intended to keep unworthy people from doing the actual practices. He justifies this by saying that it's a violent act to cut the frenum, and it would obviously go against the code of non-violence.
Frenum-snipping is indeed very minor self-surgery. Given that, terms like 'violent' and 'mutilation' and 'unnatural' are only terms of disapproval on that surgery, since such terms can be applied to any surgical practice. Better to ask people what exactly the reasons are that they disapprove. Don't accept these disapproving terms (or further ones) alone, as supplying any number of disapproving terms is never equal to providing a good reason to disapprove. Challenge them to provide solid reasons for disapproving of this minor self-surgery.
This little discipline is really just a matter of confining people to clear, rational thinking.
And he also says it's a trap for people to cut the frenum...that it was intended to keep unworthy people from doing the actual practices.
There's a trap right there in that idea. Productive spiritual practices make people worthy --- worthiness does not make productive spiritual practices.
A good question to ask here is, how is Yogani trapped? How am I trapped? Or Shanti, or Meg, or any of the others making productive use of frenum-snipping and Kechari?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 01 2006 10:41:40 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2006 : 10:39:39 PM
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B,
That's cool that it worked well for you! I don't know Ajita's method exactly...what I wrote was my interpretation of his words in his translation of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika. Hopefully he comes back to this forum and verifies if you were doing it correctly...or if my understanding of what he wrote about kechari was somewhat correct. Who knows..maybe it's a great practice! I certainly don't...I'm such a beginner.
I tried it for a second or two...I'm not great at imagining things like that. I didn't want to cause any imbalances, since I'm already having enough "fun" with AYPractices. I don't know if it'd have a negative effect, since the crown is kind of involved?
The fact that the crown is involved may have been the reason why your ecstatic conductivity was so great. I duno!
By the way, I also have tasted sweetness from the communion cracker. I think it has to do with enzymes being released as a result of ecstatic conductivity. It was written that Yogananda ate garbage and said it tasted sweet. Cool to hear about someone else having the same experience as me. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2006 : 11:21:37 AM
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bewell said:
I tried the method of "imagining your sense of taste extending 15 cm above your head" (I had not heard of it before) and immediately, for the second time in my life, I tasted a sweetness like honey.
It seems to me that there is something to this practice. It definitely produces a positive subtle yogic effect when I try it, and the effect may have something in common with Kechari mudra. At the same time though, in and of itself, I doubt it would have been anywhere nearly as powerful for me as my kechari practice is. Another twist on the whole thing is that, whereas I definitely feel the subtle effect from doing that now, I'm not so sure I'd have felt it nearly as well without the kechari background. Every advance in Yoga breaks ground for further advances.
From his writings, I'm inclined to suspect that Ajita is experiencing genuine and profound yogic effects; that is, he is a genuine 'strong yogi'. However, from the perspective of these experiences (and with the background given by tradition), he may be inclined to believe that he can easily transmit these strong subtle practices. But this is not at all easily acheived. The possession of yogic abilities, unfortunately (sadly perhaps), doesn't necessarily make the teaching of them easy, or make the 'advanced' people extremely effective at teaching. That's the reality of it, I believe, and the reality goes counter to the mythology of the 'realized siddha', which can give us unreasonable expectations.
Fair play to anyone for trying though!!
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2006 : 12:01:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
bewell said:
I tried the method of "imagining your sense of taste extending 15 cm above your head" (I had not heard of it before) and immediately, for the second time in my life, I tasted a sweetness like honey.
It seems to me that there is something to this practice. It definitely produces a positive subtle yogic effect when I try it, and the effect may have something in common with Kechari mudra. At the same time though, in and of itself, I doubt it would have been anywhere nearly as powerful for me as my kechari practice is. Another twist on the whole thing is that, whereas I definitely feel the subtle effect from doing that now, I'm not so sure I'd have felt it nearly as well without the kechari background. Every advance in Yoga breaks ground for further advances.
From his writings, I'm inclined to suspect that Ajita is experiencing genuine and profound yogic effects; that is, he is a genuine 'strong yogi'. However, from the perspective of these experiences (and with the background given by tradition), he may be inclined to believe that he can easily transmit these strong subtle practices. But this is not at all easily acheived. The possession of yogic abilities, unfortunately (sadly perhaps), doesn't necessarily make the teaching of them easy, or make the 'advanced' people extremely effective at teaching. That's the reality of it, I believe, and the reality goes counter to the mythology of the 'realized siddha', which can give us unreasonable expectations.
Fair play to anyone for trying though!!
Hi David:
Yes, perhaps it is the "forgetful mountain climber" syndrome -- lesson 84.
There is this guy yelling from the top of the mountain, "Just be here now!" But few may know exactly how he got there, including him! The prerequisites for benefiting fully from the lesson may be missing.
That is why clear trail-blazing all the way from the bottom of the mountain to the very top is essential. The more we know about climbing the mountain from bottom to top, the more we can gain at all levels, including from those who are on top, even if they may not recall how they got there (or how we can get there).
This may be a case in point...
The guru is in you.
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Ajita's method of Pranayama
