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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 11 2010 : 6:07:17 PM
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| I have just read the introduction to my copy of the Yoga Sutras with commentary by an Indian monk. It says he spent nearly his entirely adult life living in various hermitages, caves, and solitude. And I realize this is common among highly revered spiritual practitioners, but are these people really a good source of instruction? We are social creatures, and it seems to me anybody who spends years at a time alone is quite misdirected in life. Why does all this great spiritual knowledge seem to come from these hermits who have left life behind, and should we trust it? |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2010 : 7:18:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
...living in various hermitages, caves, and solitude.
Good question. I would like to offer a perspective.
I am 49, married, childless, well educated, with Christian, and specifically, Mennonite and Amish roots.
I have been drawn to huts, and caves and solitude since college. I hung out with the local Harrisonburg, Virgina crazy hermit by the name of Quite T. Please. I liked caving, and took groups of children there when I was director of a summer camp. I read mystical literature such as No Man is an Island by Thomas Merton a Roman Catholic Monk in an order that encourages silence. Merton lived for years alone in a hermitage. Those were my college years.
I was a parent before I got married: a foster parent as part of an intentional community. That was only for a year. When I got married, I expected the usual career and children, but when we learned we were not going to have children, my career evaporated too. I was back to my hermit tendencies.
One thing that may seem hard to believe, but hermits say it, and I am convinced in my flesh and bones that it is true: we are never alone.
You can go out to the wilderness in Wyoming, and still be connected to loved ones you left behind. And in that separation that is connected, love deepens.
That is just one way that hermits can teach us something we all sort of know, but fail to realize fully when we are in our busy lives.
We are never alone.
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2010 : 8:49:53 PM
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Well, I certainly think one could progress more quickly living as a hermit, JDH.
It's all in what you want out of your life, I suppose.
We are all directed to lay down our lives.
The hardest part, of course, is picking it back up again. This we also must do.
The one who goes into a cave and stays there may reach their spiritual potential, and yet, they are do not go into the world in order to assist others in doing the same. The Bodhisattva of Buddhism is more revered, because it is one who after reaching their spiritual potential, returns to the mundane world to share in the struggles of all humanity. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2010 : 01:24:10 AM
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That's exactly the thought that concerns me. That progress would come quicker living in isolation. It would be much easier to bring stillness to the mind without the constant winds of pesky things like work and society. What else isolates people to such a degree other than unhealthy obsessions and addictions? I've gone on to read the first couple sutras and commentaries of this author. He goes on to explain that the practice of yoga is the cultivation of habitual single pointed concentration on a single object until it reaches the level of omnipresence through all of waking and dreaming experience. And then, finally the renunciation of that single object.
I guess this post was maybe hatched as an indirect question of whether yoga is really all it's described to be, or if it is some kind of sick obsession or mental disease. I can't tell whether I'm drinking nectar or poison at this point. The path which lead me to yoga was primarily through excessive drug use, panic attacks, and sexual obsession, not exactly a healthy origin. If yoga eventually leads me to living in extreme solitude, that would seem to fit right in. I wish I had some indicator that this was all going in a positive direction. So far it is just a neutral curiosity though, like a novelty trick.
I don't mean to harsh so much on living a quiet life. I myself am quite a homebody already. But I wish yoga would lead me in a direction of greater agency in social life, rather than the other way. How could an endless outpouring of Love lead to solitude? Or vice versa?
Bewell, thanks for your perspective. While I agree that we're never alone on some philosophical level, there is a real difference between living alone and living a connected social life with reproduction and family. I know not everyone can have that or the world would be overrun with too many people. While we may be manifest infinite consciousness, we are also creatures, organisms, animals. We have deep rooted instincts to reproduce and raise children. Completing the life cycle seems to be a foundational level of spiritual health to me. And this is perhaps one of the major reasons I'm asking about these extended hermitages and monastic lifestyles. |
Edited by - JDH on Nov 13 2010 05:37:20 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2010 : 9:48:44 PM
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JDH wrote:
"I don't mean to harsh so much on living a quiet life. I myself am quite a homebody already. But I wish yoga would lead me in a direction of greater agency in social life, rather than the other way. How could an endless outpouring of Love lead to solitude? Or vice versa"
You are right. It is very rare to be the kind of person who would benefit from solitude. Yogis did this in the past, but they didn't have the benefit of AYP practices, which benefit us much quicker than staring at an object until you become one with it. I don't know if you have ever tried that, but believe me it's slow.
And deep meditation DOES lead you in the direction of greater agency in social life. Are you doing DM twice a day? It doesn't take long for you to notice a difference if you practice regularly.
The path is not the same for everyone, except for twice daily practices. A few are guided to a monastic lifestyle but most are not. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Nov 13 2010 9:49:55 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2010 : 11:41:05 PM
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Ultimately it is you who decides what course your life will take. Yoga isn't going to make you into a helpless bystander who can no longer direct their life. I think that practices will gradually evolve you towards whatever state will provide you with the most happiness and stability. Whether that is in solitude or among many people probably just depends on the individual and what kind of cultural background they have.
Spiritual practices should be considered to be effective based upon how well they work, not who wrote them down. Really it does not matter who systematized and codified a particular teaching or technique. That leads into the whole argument of legitimacy, which is a can of worms best left unopened. |
Edited by - Clear White Light on Nov 13 2010 11:59:13 PM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2010 : 01:43:23 AM
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Hi JDH 
quote:
Originally posted by JDH
That's exactly the thought that concerns me. That progress would come quicker living in isolation.
That might be true for some paths, but I don't think it applies to AYP. In AYP, daily activities are a vital part of the practice because they help integrate the ecstatic bliss into your daily life. AYP would probably work for people living in solitude, but I believe progress would actually be faster with an active lifestyle.
My guess is that solitude is beneficial only from the inner silence side of the equation, which is the focus of some traditions. But we also have the ecstatic side to consider, so activity and service become more important than in other paths.
This is just my intuition. Hopefully Yogani or knowledgeable others will chime in if I'm wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by JDH
But I wish yoga would lead me in a direction of greater agency in social life, rather than the other way. How could an endless outpouring of Love lead to solitude?
This is the direction it's taking me (i.e. "greater agency in social life"). I also observed this in other AYP practitioners at the PA retreat. Maybe it's possible for Love to lead to solitude, but I personally don't see it. Love moves me to be more social (in a meaningful way) and serve those around me.
AYP has actually brought me out of my cave, but it took a few years to do so.
This is just my experience.
Love
cosmic |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2010 : 04:11:24 AM
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Everything I have read points clearly indicates there is no need for hiding oneself away in a cave. If you think that is necessary then you are deluded.
Even the Gita (if the translations are right)makes the case that in the time of Kali, in what was considered the modern age four thousand years ago, there was no place for being a hermit.
To say we can move on faster is pointless. Faster that what ? How can you measure that without a yardstick to measure by. Faster, slower is just wrong thinking only this moment is important.
I fully get JDH's 'poison or nectar' and have been there myself. The answer is 'does it really matter ?'. You cannot know that anything is better or worse than something else except by inner knowledge. You cannot jusdge these things with mind alone because it is the very thing that has constructed the illusion in the first place. Mind IS the cage. If standing on your head with straws stuck in your ears makes you feel better, then it would be as justified as Yoga IMO.
As it is AYP seems to work for many people and seems to have done so for me. Maybe hanging upside down and drinking coca cola might have been more beneficial, but for now I will take AYP. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2010 : 07:54:37 AM
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I completely agree with Karl.
You may feel you are drinking poison at some point because that is what you had inside, and it is moving out.
And that is exactly why you DON'T want it to happen faster!
Sometimes faster is slower.
My teacher said don't force any stretch. I wanted my left leg stretch to progress faster, so I forced it. I pulled the muscle a little, and it took three weeks before i could do the stretch again. Meanwhile I was continuously doing a normal stretch with my right leg.
All of the horror stories you see on the internet of yogis who had major problems (like Gopi Krishna) are exactly that; they found a way to go faster, and ended up sorry.
And Gopi didn't even retreat to a cave; he just concentrated for hours. So this is why the AYP system is much less rigorous, and has self pacing.
This not only prevents over-zealous people from catastrophe, but also makes yoga available to the average person living a normal life. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Nov 14 2010 08:07:18 AM |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2010 : 1:50:47 PM
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Haha karl. You're right. I can ask is this poison or nectar? And I can find answers that make perfect sense in both directions. But I'm not going to stop practicing because I am curious to see what happens next.
As this topic has marinated for a few days, I'm reminded of Yogani's mention of powerful technologies that are made available to lay people who do not understand the underlying science. Perhaps the early discoveries in yoga were made during periods of seclusion. Just like early scientists probably spent countless hours alone making their discoveries. That doesn't make the technologies any less useful to me.
The description of single pointed concentration in the commentaries on the first two sutras are describing what we do with DM in AYP. The concentration on object is favoring the mantra, and the renunciation of the object is favoring the fuzzyness, or fading of the mantra. The reason I pointed it out was that the way it was laid out in the book, it struck me as a particularly ridiculous solution to having a clouded mind. Just as hermitage would be a particularly ridiculous solution to the problem of suffering. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2010 : 1:52:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
Haha karl. You're right. I can ask is this poison or nectar? And I can find answers that make perfect sense in both directions. But I'm not going to stop practicing because I am curious to see what happens next.
As this topic has marinated for a few days, I'm reminded of Yogani's mention of powerful technologies that are made available to lay people who do not understand the underlying science. Perhaps the early discoveries in yoga were made during periods of seclusion. Just like early scientists probably spent countless hours alone making their discoveries. That doesn't make the technologies any less useful to me.
The description of single pointed concentration in the commentaries on the first two sutras are describing what we do with DM in AYP. The concentration on object is favoring the mantra, and the renunciation of the object is favoring the fuzzyness, or fading of the mantra. The reason I pointed it out was that the way it was laid out in the book, it struck me as a particularly ridiculous solution to having a clouded mind. Just as hermitage would be a particularly ridiculous solution to the problem of suffering.
That is exactly what I would say, JDH.
Here's the thing, back in the olden days there were these heroes that were out living the hermit lifestyle and coming back with all this new information.
Now, we have been rediscovering all that over the last century and are in a position to capitalize on it.
As some others have said, AYP isn't about going on one's own in solitude. But I will say that AYP isn't for everyone, even if you all think it is.
Everyone is different. It disturbs me how much ra ra dogmatism there is on this site. There are many types of people and many types of experiences.
I would not discount the desire of some people to go off as a hermit. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2010 : 5:04:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
That is exactly what I would say, JDH.
Here's the thing, back in the olden days there were these heroes that were out living the hermit lifestyle and coming back with all this new information.
Now, we have been rediscovering all that over the last century and are in a position to capitalize on it.
As some others have said, AYP isn't about going on one's own in solitude. But I will say that AYP isn't for everyone, even if you all think it is.
Everyone is different. It disturbs me how much ra ra dogmatism there is on this site. There are many types of people and many types of experiences.
I would not discount the desire of some people to go off as a hermit.
This is in the section 'general questions on AYP' so it's in relation to the practise of AYP that this has been answered.
AYP does not require someone to become a hermit, neither is there a demand that someone should follow AYP. However, if someone is asking specific questions about an alternate form of spiritualistic practise then that would be found under that particular heading.
I have seen no sign of dogmatic behaviour, infact quite the contrary. From what I have read most people accept quite readily there are an infinite number of paths and encourage others to follow those paths. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2010 : 7:08:48 PM
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Hi JDH,
quote:
Originally posted by JDH
That's exactly the thought that concerns me. That progress would come quicker living in isolation.
Actually, in my experience and observation, this isn't true. If someone intends to live as a hermit forever, then *maybe*, but even then, most hermits have to go down into the "marketplace" sometimes, and if one's realization isn't stable, nothing can help highlight that fact as effectively as some good ol' "real world interaction" with others, and with regular life.
That's one of the reasons, in my opinion, that some of the most stable, down-to-Earth yogis (in the sense of someone who has realized the union of Yoga, and beyond) I know, or know of, have been so-called householders; people who awakened in the midst of regular, day-to-day life.
I liken awakening to getting healthy via physical exercise; just as muscles grow during the 23 of 24 hours we're not in the gym, awakening happens during the 23 of 24 hours (or so) we're not practicing.
There's not better real-world feedback mechanism concerning how we're doing yogically, than good-old regular life.
For examples of some tools that can be utilized during non-practice times, to help us enjoy the benefits of awakening "as we go", please check out my website at http://livingunbound.net, if you like.
quote:
I guess this post was maybe hatched as an indirect question of whether yoga is really all it's described to be
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Yoga is not all it's described to be.
It's more.
But only infinitely.
No kidding.
We can't have any idea what "Big Y" Yoga is, because "Big Y" Yoga is experienced exactly where ideas are not - here, now - in reality.
That's why Living Unbound's tag-line is "Freedom Beyond Imagination".
That's the moksha (liberation) that all the yogic scriptures are talking about -- and it's only worth everything.
quote:
I wish I had some indicator that this was all going in a positive direction.
Consistent daily practices yield replicable benefits: greater peace, greater equanimity, greater clarity of mind, and so on.
These benefits, however, tend to be inconsistent for quite some time; the greater purpose of yoga practices is to help the mind stabilize in its natural state - yogash chitta vrtti-nirodhah - yoga (union) is the absence of artificial mind disturbance, as one translation (mine) of Yoga Sutra I.2 says.
quote:
How could an endless outpouring of Love lead to solitude? Or vice versa?
Not much about the true benefits of yoga can be known via thinking about them - that's why the best advice always boils down to:
Keep practicing consistently, no matter what - and know for yourself.
There's a reason people have been dedicating their lives to yoga and other effective spiritual paths for thousands of years, you know.
quote:
Completing the life cycle seems to be a foundational level of spiritual health to me. And this is perhaps one of the major reasons I'm asking about these extended hermitages and monastic lifestyles.
As I mentioned above, many of the more obviously enlightened people in the world today, are householders - with families, children, careers, etc.
Yoga and similar paths simply bring us home to what we each and all ever actually already are, now.
Body-minds do what they do; they can't not. The majority of them do indeed seem to be wired for life in the regular day-to-day world.
As Abhinavagupta (one of the greatest gurus of all time, and while unmarried throughout his life, he was a householder, and a tantric yogi) said:
"On the manifested levels, the true 'I' that is Lord Shiva is most accurately referred to as 'us'".
As in: Yes, regular life is usually about living unbound *in* society; consciousness is awakening itself right here, right now.
That's not to say that monastic life isn't appropriate for some -- it obviously is, per the fact there are monastics and monasteries all over the world.
However, to think that escaping into isolation will really yield benefits in terms of enlightenment -- for most of us, that's simply not true.
Any loss of peace and quiet that might be found at a monastery, is more than made up for by the real-world feedback of regular life.
Plus, wherever we go, we "take us with us"; many people spend decades in isolation, or in monastic life, and don't end up with the ongoing peace and freedom of enlightenment.
And ultimately, All *is* One.
From one angle One, from another angle All.
There's no less enlightenment or freedom in any one circumstance than in any other; it's just a matter of whether consciousness is open and can therefore be grateful for it (this moment, whatever its content), or if consciousness is constricted, and therefore lost in dreams of evaluation.
As Adyashanti has says, paraphrasing the Buddha:
"Enlightenment isn't freedom from being human; enlightenment is freedom to be fully human."
I hope that's useful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 15 2010 7:12:06 PM |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2010 : 12:17:28 AM
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Thanks Kirtanman,
I get negative sometimes, and build up some high expectations for yoga. Some of that is due to the readings here, and how slowly the changes play out. Your post helped remind me that as far as hobbies go, yoga is pretty awesome. If I use never-ending love as my measuring stick, well then it's falling short for the time being. But if I use my other current daily activities such as going to the gym as a measuring stick, well then yoga is one of the best parts of my life. Not so much in terms of a direct positive benefits perspective, but in a "this is fascinating to my curiosity" perspective. I must keep going because by comparison, other things seem old and worn-out.
I like the take on daily activity and interaction as well. Maybe in the short term it would SEEM that progress would come faster in isolation because there aren't as many distractions - but maybe that would be because the purification process is not in direct contact with the day to day obstructions. I.e. it seems faster until you go down to the marketplace as you said - when you realize that you didn't advance so far after all when you bump into somebody and they call you a Chit-head, or see a beautiful woman. Then it's fully apparent that the yogi who has practicing amidst all these distractions and fluctuations of the mind all along is much further. I suppose a mix of the two is best, some cave time, some marketplace time. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2010 : 08:22:40 AM
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Yes, I agree, but it is counterproductive to have expectations.
I have all marketplace time, with cave time in the morning and evening. Some of the places i work are very chaotic- lots of people talking and machines running.
Sometimes I think I need to be in a more peaceful place. Then I realize that comes from the inside, not by changing the world.
If I seclude myself, I quickly tire of it and think something's missing. Once again, that something comes from the inside, not by making outer changes. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2010 : 01:10:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
I would not discount the desire of some people to go off as a hermit.
Nor would I.
Solitude can be really wonderful, BTW. Although I've never lived in a cave, I did spend the first few years of my practice in relative solitude. Spent a lot of time alone in my room, not much socializing or leaving the house. It is necessary sometimes, especially when inner silence is a new experience, and easy to follow the mind out of.
I completely respect anyone who spends long periods in a cave, in silence, in solitude, whatever. Did not mean to imply otherwise. My first post here was more about optimization with AYP (which is why we're all here  ). I still think an active lifestyle is optimal for AYP, but maybe that doesn't apply to everyone. And I'm willing to be wrong.
Whatever brings you to Love, to your infinite universal Being, to Liberation, I bow to that.
Love
cosmic |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2010 : 3:45:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
I completely respect anyone who spends long periods in a cave, in silence, in solitude, whatever.
Obviously never spent much time in cave. After almost 20 years of caving I can tell you it is cold, damp, noisy and can often cause a sense of paranoia when you are left alone in the dark.
Of course you mean the idealised cave, warm, quiet, comfortable....a bit like a bedroom. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2010 : 5:16:57 PM
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| LOL you're right, karl... I like the concept of sitting in a cave. Wow, how long did you stay in a cave, at a stretch? Would love to hear your experiences with it! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2010 : 6:19:33 PM
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"a bit like a bedroom" Ha ha
Yes, what we think is in a cave is within us; inner silence. And most of us already have the means; twice daily meditation in a quiet room - anywhere. I was intentionally homeless once, and still found quiet places; a house under construction, obscure corner in a big library; my car next to a park. Much easier to integrate in a normal lifestyle than a cave. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2010 : 9:02:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
LOL you're right, karl... I like the concept of sitting in a cave. Wow, how long did you stay in a cave, at a stretch? Would love to hear your experiences with it!
Up to about 15 hours. It was sport caving, although some of my friends did some overnights in the deeper French caves that took around 8 hours to decend and over twice as long to get back out.
Some of the dry level passages were quiet. One series called the minarets were diamond shaped and filled with soft silt. You could lie back and switch your light off, you could only hear your breathing and pulse and the dark was more a physical thing.
I read books on those that tried spending a few months down a cave on their own and literally went insane until they were rescued. |
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matangi
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2010 : 01:05:00 AM
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Dear JDH,
My response, in perhaps less eloquence than the beautiful souls that have already shared, is that simply we live in different times. If there is any merit to having lived past lives, it has been made very clear to me that chasing THAT is no longer necessary. THAT is available now. We are quite fortunate.
Thank you Yogani for your efforts in clearing the path.
With love to all... |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2010 : 9:37:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
Thanks Kirtanman,
Your post helped remind me that as far as hobbies go, yoga is pretty awesome.
Cool; glad to hear it; thanks for letting me know.
quote:
if I use my other current daily activities such as going to the gym as a measuring stick, well then yoga is one of the best parts of my life.
Awesome. If you feel the need to use a measuring stick, that sounds like a good one, then (whatever keeps the mind from yammering as we go about our business, is good).
quote:
I must keep going because by comparison, other things seem old and worn-out.
It was that way for me, for a long time.
Until it got a lot more like that.
Until it got infinitely like that.
Just keep going -- you can't regret it.
The only ones who don't realize freedom beyond imagination are the ones who stop practicing.
quote:
when you realize that you didn't advance so far after all when you bump into somebody and they call you a Chit-head, or see a beautiful woman.
You get it! And, as well all know "Chit Happens" (likewise Sat and Ananda, hence the phrase .....).
quote:
I suppose a mix of the two is best, some cave time, some marketplace time.
Yup; balance is key ... hence the fundamental place of its emphasis in so many systems.
Also, limited, thinking mind literally can't understand any of this, and so many people (aka thinking minds) spend so much energy trying.
Best just to make daily practices a habit (much like, say, going to the gym), observe what mind does, and release what we can, as we go (in terms of attachments, of anything that produces suffering -- easily and methodically) -- knowing that practices are dissolving the majority of the blocks as we go, "under the hood", as Yogani says.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 21 2010 9:38:29 PM |
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hermitage
