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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 10:46:33 AM
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Namaste Friends 
Yesterday I had a very interesting afternoon practice session. Would like to share with you what happened (mentally) during the meditation portion of this practice (will share what happened physically/enegetically in another thread shortly).
So I am sitting in meditation (after asana and pranayam) and am having a particularly mindy session.... lots of thoughts (mostly of the retreat coming up next week ) and it is taking me longer then usual to notice them and return to the mantra. At about 10 minutes in I have a thought come into my mind. Not "float" in, but a "smack-me-with-a-hammer" arrival kind of thing. This thought pushed itself in with some serious force. All other thoughts, the mantra, Silence, everything else is pushed out and all there is is this question; "What do you find significant?" Because of the "force" of this question/thought I choose to "follow" it... I know this isn't the DM procedure, but I followed it anyways. I'm kinda glad I did. I thought about it for a moment.....what do I find significant. Essentially I couldn't pick any one thing over another. I basically could have started naming everything in the entire Universe. It all seemed to have equal importance....how much importance that was, was unable to be determined....everything was both infinitely important and not important at all. This realization completely turned the mind off. And I mean COMPLETELY off. I tried to think of a thought, even the thought "there are no thoughts!" but I couldn't. There was just emptiness/nothingness/silence.
So, I'm wondering how you would answer the "What do you find significant?" question. Does it turn your mind off? I know there are hundreds of questions that are "designed/capable" of creating this effect ("Who am I" kind of questions), but none of these have ever shut down the mind like this question did. Which begs (IMO) a few other questions..... Does it matter which question is used? Is there even a point to consciously asking these questions, or is this "shutting down of the mind" effect only going to happen when the question comes to you on it's own?
Curious to hear your opinions and experiences.
Love!
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 11:14:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
So, I'm wondering how you would answer the "What do you find significant?" question. Does it turn your mind off? I know there are hundreds of questions that are "designed/capable" of creating this effect ("Who am I" kind of questions), but none of these have ever shut down the mind like this question did. Which begs (IMO) a few other questions..... Does it matter which question is used? Is there even a point to consciously asking these questions, or is this "shutting down of the mind" effect only going to happen when the question comes to you on it's own?
Hi Carson:
Yes, the question(s) may be unique to each individual. This is why AYP takes an open approach to self-inquiry, focusing instead on the enabling principle of systematically cultivating abiding inner silence (the witness), and "activating stillness" through structured samyama practice. From there, the flow into self-inquiry will be natural, according to individual inspiration and preference.
Btw, as a rule, it is best to save self-inquiry for after sitting practices. It is good to keep in place the underlying cause of effective self-inquiry (cultivation of the witness), and then capitalize on the effects afterward. There will be rare exceptions, like your dramatic experience described above, but we don't want readers to think that continually pursuing thought processes during deep meditation will be an aid to practice, because it will not.
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 11:59:59 AM
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Hi Yogani
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Yes, the question(s) may be unique to each individual. This is why AYP takes an open approach to self-inquiry, focusing instead on the enabling principle of systematically cultivating abiding inner silence (the witness), and "activating stillness" through structured samyama practice. From there, the flow into self-inquiry will be natural, according to individual inspiration and preference.
 Good to know FYI, I am not regularly practicing samyama these days as I often have to choose between samyama and asanas due to time constraints, (I can't seem to keep samyama under about 15 minutes, even with just the regular 9 sutras repeated twice) and I really enjoy my asana practice (always seem to feel like something is "missing" if I skip it) but I hope that one day soon I will be able to include it again.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Btw, as a rule, it is best to save self-inquiry for after sitting practices.
Yeah, I know this, and 99.9% of the time this is how it happens. Sitting practices during practice time, self-inquiry (when it happens naturally) during the day.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
It is good to keep in place the underlying cause of effective self-inquiry (cultivation of the witness), and then capitalize on the effects afterward. There will be rare exceptions, like your dramatic experience described above, but we don't want readers to think that continually pursuing thought processes during deep meditation will be an aid to practice, because it will not.
For sure. Sorry if I seemed to indicate that it was a good idea to follow these "inquiry thoughts" to a conclusion during practice time...didn't mean to indicate that at all. This was indeed an "exception".
Thanks for the feedback
Love!
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 1:57:42 PM
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Hi Carson,
I can vouch for this experience.
As far as I can figure, this is automatic Self Inquiry, which I'd experienced long before I knew what Self Inquiry was.
Contrary to AYP (per Yogani, above), I do what feels natural (eg, I don't follow AYP)... so my response is that this is natural, and I generally find these powerful and automatic thoughts to be very beneficial to my practice.
My experience has been that these thoughts often precipitate incredible realizations and glorious amounts of bliss and union.
My intuition is that this is something you should continue to follow...
Everybody's different, so those reading this post should know that I am not advocating you to do it this way.
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 9:59:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
...
It all seemed to have equal importance....how much importance that was, was unable to be determined....everything was both infinitely important and not important at all. This realization completely turned the mind off. And I mean COMPLETELY off. I tried to think of a thought, even the thought "there are no thoughts!" but I couldn't. There was just emptiness/nothingness/silence.
...
Hi Carson :)
My question is this: If you turned the mind off, what was 'trying to think of a thought'? What part of you was thinking about or realizing the fact that there were no thoughts if it wasn't mind? How could there be inner silence when during that time you were 'trying to think of a thought'?
:)
TI |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 10:13:36 PM
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Hi TI
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
My question is this: If you turned the mind off, what was 'trying to think of a thought'? What part of you was thinking about or realizing the fact that there were no thoughts if it wasn't mind? How could there be inner silence when during that time you were 'trying to think of a thought'?
It's really hard to explain. I can only say in retrospect that I was trying to find a thought. What that "means" is that there was still full awareness, and it was searching for a thought...even the thought that there are no thoughts. But the awareness couldn't find anything. It is only in hindsight that I can say I was "trying to think a thought". I guess I wasn't very clear when saying I was trying to think a thought....more accurately I was trying to FIND a thought. Make sense?
Love!
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 10:57:44 PM
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This act of "trying to find a thought" is the key that opens pandora's box. . . .
People do this all the time without knowing it. It's an addiction.
Similar to wanting something to eat and not knowing what you're "hungry for". |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2010 : 10:58:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi TI
...
It's really hard to explain. I can only say in retrospect that I was trying to find a thought. What that "means" is that there was still full awareness, and it was searching for a thought...even the thought that there are no thoughts. But the awareness couldn't find anything. It is only in hindsight that I can say I was "trying to think a thought". I guess I wasn't very clear when saying I was trying to think a thought....more accurately I was trying to FIND a thought. Make sense?
Love!
Hi Carson :)
Yes, it is a very hard thing to explain. I'm trying to understand it. And tied into that is my belief that I've never hit deep silence because there is always something moving.
Have you ever just sat and watched your thoughts? I have many times and what I've learned is that if I focus on the conventional areas of consciousness, like the brow or inside the head in the cave of brahman, sometimes it clears itself out and there is a space. But there are other thoughts that come in from above the main head space conglomerate. They are very fine subtle thoughts that sort of bounce around very quickly and if I catch one, it becomes a conscious thought.
A few times, when my bodies have split apart, even though I was in a huge empty space and I could visibly see the various bodies, I could still think. Perhaps I am having trouble distinguishing between 'thinking' and 'awareness'?? Maybe I wasn't thinking. Awareness seems to be similar to mind, except that with pure awareness you know the entire concept in a split second without subvocally explaining it to the normal consciousness or presenting a picture or vision that normal consciousness can grasp.
They say that awareness is actually the atman, flying around at high speed, painting the world of maya in a series of small dots. I've always thought that deep silence occurs when the atman stops all movement, so there wouldn't be any awareness seeking thoughts or anything. At that point, I believe, you are aware of everything at once, with no feeling of expansion as that is function of mind.
Anyway, it sounds like you had a great experience there. It reminds me of Zen practice ala "what is the sound of one gum flapping" :) I don't think it matters what question you use, just so the mind doesn't make up an answer and you can get to the point where the mind learns that it can't find the answer. At that point, yes, the mind (or that portion of the mind involved in the linear thought process) stops. If your awareness is focused on that dead spot, then one might believe that the whole mind had stopped. But I think that the feeling of "I" is part of the mind, so when the mind really stops, there is no more "I" to be aware of motion or the movement of awareness.
Maybe next time you will stay in that state a little longer. I hope you are successful!
:)
TI |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2010 : 09:37:26 AM
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Hey Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
This act of "trying to find a thought" is the key that opens pandora's box. . . .
People do this all the time without knowing it. It's an addiction.
Similar to wanting something to eat and not knowing what you're "hungry for".
What was different about this experience was that when I went looking for a thought, I couldn't find one. Nothing. Usually when I go looking for a thought I find a plethora 
Love!
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2010 : 11:13:31 AM
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Hi TI
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Have you ever just sat and watched your thoughts?
Yup. I did a whole course on mindfulness meditation at a Buddhist meditation center.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
A few times, when my bodies have split apart, even though I was in a huge empty space and I could visibly see the various bodies, I could still think. Perhaps I am having trouble distinguishing between 'thinking' and 'awareness'?? Maybe I wasn't thinking.
In my experience it is very easy to know when you are not thinking (at least in an experience like what I am describing in this thread). There are moments of no-thinking all the time (in between the thoughts) but these are much harder to recognize (at least at first). But in the experience described in this thread, it was impossible to miss the fact that there were no thoughts. I could not find a single thought. Not even the thought that there were no thoughts (this thought came after the experience ended) or the thought that I was searching for a thought. I was searching for a thought, but there was no thought anywhere. Again, difficult to explain.
I have had this same experience a few times before. The first time it happened to me was the "turn around point" of my life. It happened after failing at a suicide attempt and then crying for three days straight...no eating, no sleeping, no pissing/$hitting, just crying because I wanted my life to be over. Then after 3 days of this I hit the "no-thought" experience, same as described in this thread. A complete inability for the mind to find even the most subtle of thoughts. Complete silence, total awareness. And as I said, this changed my life. As soon as the experience ended I knew that my whole life was going to, from that moment forward, be dedicated to finding a way to come back to, and live from, that place of silence in the mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Awareness seems to be similar to mind,.....
Awareness is awareness. Awareness is consciousness. It is everything. There is nothing that is not awareness, either in form or not....seen or unseen. It isn't similar to the mind, it IS the mind, and everything else too (although I am not sure if there is anything that isn't the mind....words are inadequate at this point for me).
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
.....except that with pure awareness you know the entire concept in a split second without subvocally explaining it to the normal consciousness or presenting a picture or vision that normal consciousness can grasp.
Pure awareness is beyond any concepts. When existing as pure awareness there are no concepts...only awareness.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
They say that awareness is actually the atman, flying around at high speed, painting the world of maya in a series of small dots. I've always thought that deep silence occurs when the atman stops all movement, so there wouldn't be any awareness seeking thoughts or anything. At that point, I believe, you are aware of everything at once, with no feeling of expansion as that is function of mind.
I'm not sure who "they" are, but personally, I don't really like trying to define what atman is, or anything else really. I find that attaching to definitions of things keeps the mind in seperation. "This is this and that is that, grrrrrr". Hahahaha This mentality causes constriction for me. I can't (accurately) define deep silence, I can only experience it. It seems to be beyond words for me (others seem much better at talking about/defining Silence then me).
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I don't think it matters what question you use, just so the mind doesn't make up an answer and you can get to the point where the mind learns that it can't find the answer.
I don't know that one can "pick" a question that will work. In my experience, it seems that the question that works has to "come to you" (come from inside). I have done plenty of "Who I am" kind of inquiry, but it has never shut the mind down like when the "What do you find significant" question happened on it's own.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
At that point, yes, the mind (or that portion of the mind involved in the linear thought process) stops. If your awareness is focused on that dead spot, then one might believe that the whole mind had stopped.
All thought processes ended at that time. There was no "focusing of the awareness" at all. Awareness was just aware of itself and that was it. Again, really hard to put words to it.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
But I think that the feeling of "I" is part of the mind, so when the mind really stops, there is no more "I" to be aware of motion or the movement of awareness.
The "I" is in hindsight, or is used merely as a way to communicate the experience after the fact. The "I" that I am talking about experiencing "no-thought" is the pure awareness. There was no "I" during the experience. Try talking from pure awareness....you can't (at least "I" can't). There's no one there to speak. This is why there has to be some ego (IMO) left in order to maintain this human experience. There is no possiblity of verbal communication from the no "I" experience. At least that is my experience. If someone had talked to me during this experience I'm pretty sure that if I could have vocalized at all (which is questionable) that all that would have come out of my mouth would have been jibberish.... communication would have been impossible. The "I-sense" would have had to return in order to carry on a conversation. Perhaps this is not an "absolute" and the more one has experiences like this the easier it gets to maintain and function from them, but I am no where close to that at this point. For now, it is safe for me to say, that while having the experience of "no-thought", there is no possibility for verbal or mental communication. Words mean nothing in this state. Literally. They are just sounds with no meaning. Putting together a sentence would have been impossible.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Maybe next time you will stay in that state a little longer. I hope you are successful!
Thanks man. I'm truly not looking to reproduce this experience though. Experiences come and go. What matters to me (at this point) is having lasting inner peace during my daily life.
Wishing you the best
Love!
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2010 : 08:42:04 AM
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Hi Carson,
"So, I'm wondering how you would answer the "What do you find significant?" question. Does it turn your mind off?"
No, it doesn't turn my mind off. No more than "Who am I"
That question was specifically tailored for you at that moment by your inner knowing.
I have had similar "Zen sticks" when my "Spirit" decided I needed that focus.
It's no more that ourselves looking after ourselves.
And as you discussed with Katrine, it's the beginning of this enlightenment everyone keeps chasing.
Your regular practices set the scene, and provide the fertile ground that facilitates the process.
Namaste |
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What do you find significant?
