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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:39:24 PM
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Hi all,
A more serious question than the type I would like to post usually, and I really need some help:
I am trying to get through a trauma. The yoga practices, I have good reasons to believe, has helped a lot with that. But the way it helps is to make it more painful. Yes, I get a clearer picture of my true nature. And I improved on a lot of things. But the reality, especially the irrevesible faults I've made in the past, make me very painful. On normal days, I am just okay with reading yoga books, practising, and busying my life, my work. But inside me, I still feel puzzled. Where should I go next?
I learnt much more about life, both through the trauma and AYP. I get to know what I value most in my life. But so what? If I can return back to 3 years ago, everything would be fine. Now it's just regret and regret.
My mind is calling me for a new life. I feel meaningless if I continue on my life, my career; with little time spending on important things in life. The trend here in Hong Kong is: don't expect working fewer than 10 hours a day. Don't belief those figure in newspaper, they are for older generations. Now, on average my friends (or my age) work from 9am to 8pm. So, don't talk bout "spirituality". It's a luxury for Americans!
Well, not necessarily so. I can choose a freer job (and I will). But with all of my friends busying around, it means that I need to find some new friends (or make my current friends into one) who are more spiritual, who work on similar goals as me; and who could support me on my path. After all, I agree strongly with Yogani that spirituality is about going out and loving others; rather than staying alone and "just meditate".
Here in Hong Kong, Christianity dominants in the spiritual world. But a traditional Christian would not think you're with them unless you take their same belief system. Don't talk about meditation. That's what I encounter in Hong Kong. Yogis? Sorry, yoga means "asanas" here. Many people won't even take the time to rest at the end of the asana class--"busying" is more important.
The AYP forum here is nice. In fact this is usually the only place where I could find some support. No one will ask me to get Baptized here. But I still feel too distant from you guys. I think I need some face-to-face friends who could go along the path with me. The trauma is still painful and hard to get through. Any experiences/ideas about knowing (or even better, creating) some "real" non-sectarian groups/friends? Or, how could I feel less lonely if there's some other ways?
Thanks Yogani again, for bringing me into this path of tears and pain, a worthwhile one.
Alvin |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Feb 17 2006 12:49:53 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 1:03:19 PM
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Hello Alvin,
Thank you for sharing all these thoughts about your life. It's good to hear that you find the exchange in the forum meaningful, but of course it's not the same as meeting with friends face to face. I'm thinking, Hong Kong is such a large city so I am convinced there must be many others like-minded that you could possibly become friends with, but it will take finding them. Have you considered reading or writing personal ads? And I can imagine that when this forum grows larger we will have members in Hong Kong, if not already, it's just a matter of time. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 1:58:19 PM
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If you look for other types of meditation groups, it may lead you to like minded people. Don't look for exactly the same type of person you are. Just look for people closer to what you believe than you know now. You may even have to try some other meditation, like zen for instance, to get to know the people. When you get to know some similar people, it will lead to "friends of friends" and eventually to what you are looking for.
Another method is what I do. I don't worry about trying to find people that are spiritually the same, because I have that here. Instead, I found an artistic group of friends, in my case they are into hip hop dance. They are non judgemental, as dance uses a different part of the brain than school learning. Any kind of physical exertion with other people is fun, and you feel comraderie with them without discussing belief systems. There are old and young, male and female, people who have given up drugs and gangs and crime because the dance uses all their excess energy.
Physical exertion of any kind is very helpful in getting rid of negative emotions like regret, depression, sadness. And doing it with others makes friends without having to believe the same thing.
Then as you continue meditation you will automatically lose those feelings of regret, and begin to get along with people no matter what they believe. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 17 2006 2:00:34 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 2:01:56 PM
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Hello Alvin
You wrote:
quote:
how could I feel less lonely if there's some other ways?
Great that you are sharing your pain. It is a constant challenge……this road we walk to open our eyes fully. One of the things that have taught me most is the fact that I didn’t have anyone I could turn to in my own process. There simply never was anyone in my life that could support my inner journey. I used to think this was a mistake. But on the contrary; it turned out to be of great help. I am not saying that you shouldn’t have a group or friends that you can commune with; I am just telling you that being alone doesn’t have to be lonely. Maybe you can do both? Meditation WILL help you with this – accepting your aloneness (which is in fact a oneness). Remember - there is a Guru in you too 
As in your life after the trauma, I also was thrown face to face with myself (what was left of the real me) – it is not a pretty sight (at least it wasn’t to me) – but it is somehow the truth of how you are feeling right now. However, don’t buy into thinking that what you feel ABOUT yourself is who you are. It is not. I learn a lot every time I accept the pain I am in. I don’t think about the pain, I stay with it until it subsides. And yes – it always gets stronger before it diminishes. But it does diminish! Your “painpool” is not endless (although I understand why it might feel that way)
Let me share a poem with you:
The Gash
Now I know
that I am nothing
I have
nothing more to save
The gash
is all there is,
and I
comprise this hell
Yet still
the fire burns
and daylight
paints the trees
How come
my heart is beating
when I am
dark and dead?
Katrine 2005
You wrote:
quote:
After all, I agree strongly with Yogani that spirituality is about going out and loving others; rather than staying alone and "just meditate".
Well; as I would absolutely agree on the end result (spread love to others); I am also convinced, through experience, that loving others is not your first priority. Spirituality, for most of us, is to be able to Be. To be able to see. And the first you see is yourself. Who YOU are is what counts, the way I see it. When you learn to love yourself (you simply can’t help loving yourself when you see who you are) – then that love fills the air. Others simply cannot help being touched by it, then. This is how we spread love. It is a radiation, not a noble duty.
No flower ever bloomed to impress the world. It blooms because it is its nature. As simple as that.
The trauma you talk about will continue to impress you until you see what happened from different angles. This takes time. The pain you are going through now WILL pass. This also takes time. Nothing wrong has happened. Life happened. Do you think you can learn to accept what happened to you? Even if you feel it ruined your life?
Let me ask you a question:
Has there been any positive change in your life since the trauma? Something that would not have happened without it?
Now we are friends, Alvin.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 4:39:44 PM
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I'm going through some similar issues. I'm in an intensely painful position from which I can't extricate myself any time soon. And, for various reasons, I'm temporarily fairly isolated.
Look, if real world friends help, I'd encourage you to get some. But don't think that yoga + yoga friends = better yoga. Yoga's about turning inward, and it's a path one goes alone (comparing notes with folks like us, that is). That said, yoga is itself a friend, and if you haven't been feeling that yet, you soon will! There was an unforgettable scene in Swami Rama's autobiography where someone asked his teacher, alone in a cave, if he got lonely. He glowed with contentment and pointed inward at his chest, and said that he always has his friend. I'm not like that yet, but I can feel it coming more and more.
While you don't want to cling to this, and do "needy yoga" as self-help or escape for the samsara (just do yoga to do yoga....like you brush your teeth), hopefully this will reassure. The sensation of friendship you get from others, much like the sensation of love, is part of a deeper thing. You're currently getting acquainted with that thing.
The best thing I can say is this: yoga will not fix your problems. It will just give you Perspective to understand that the problems are as beautiful as anything else. A stubbed toe is a chocolate. Once you stop seeing things as positive or negative, it all goes so much smoother. I was there a few months ago, and I'm not quite back yet (after a lapse of practice). So I'm in a really good position to tell you that peace is in your future...perhaps your near future. No matter what the world offers you. Is there possibly any better news? |
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YogaMaya
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 5:18:56 PM
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Hello friends,
Alvin, your problem is not unique. J&K has very aptly given the equation of our misguided belief system. In the past I practiced meditation by the Ana Pana Sati technique. I was advised to meet the senior meditators to hear and learn from their experiences. I did for about 8 months and realized that most of them just had an inflated ego.
I continued with my meditation and to my surprise all these senior meditators just disappeared from my radar. Now I spend my time enjoying my “aloneness” and continue practicing my daily meditation.
My focus is on my meditation only and surprisingly my real life needs somehow gets taken care. Of course, this does not mean that there is no effort on my part because I am still recovering from 4 years of slowdown in my business. Once again the focus is more on my spirituality and efficient use of my time. I am less perturbed about seeking company because I find that the right people seem to come into my life as and when required.
So, please be focused on your meditation and ignore the need for company. Overcome this insecurity and you will be amazed with the gifts of love and abundance you receive.
This AYP forum is one such gift.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 5:58:27 PM
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YogaMaya said:
So, please be focused on your meditation and ignore the need for company.
Eeek, I wouldn't advise that!
Keep it in balance. Don't ignore your need for company. Don't ignore any of your needs.
We are all different. Try to figure out your needs.
You may have already found some new needs, which is good. You may have found, for example, that you need not to spend ten hours a day at work.
If you did not meditate, you might never have discovered this need.
Yes, you are on the right track when you say that you may need to find a 'freer job'. In many parts of the world, the 'standard life' offered is just not balanced. You may have to do some figuring out to find a balanced one for you.
Speaking of regret: don't regret, because it makes no sense. You only have the choices you have now. What you did in the past, you did because of what you were and knew then. If you knew what you know now, you might have chosen differently, but you did not know than what you know now.
By all means try to put yourself in the situation where you make the right friends for you. However, as Ether said, the right friends for you are not necessarily most like you. And different friends bring different things to your life.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 6:26:48 PM
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Agreed with David. A little-discussed very important tenet of AYP is you do your practice and then you immediately (right after meditation) go out and ENGAGE. Yogani stresses it again and again. AYP trains householders, not monks, so we're trying to seep it into our lives, our activity, our relationships, and not have it be a separate world to which we increasingly retreat. Balance!
I'm enjoying my painful situation mentioned above. It offers me some pretty advanced grade engagement, and I'm using it as an emory board for my yoga practice. I'm grateful for it (and anyone deeming this to be masochism is missing my point!). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 17 2006 6:29:02 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 10:20:46 PM
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Marry somebody spiritual!!
Genes are a result of karma RATHER THAN A CAUSE OF IT - Yogani |
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mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 11:31:59 PM
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Spiritual company? Very hard to find in real life. Need for company? Yes is a must. One has to compromise on the quality of real life friends sometimes.Very difficult to find the right kind of friend.Need to see people? yes is a must. I like the yahoo 360 interactive arrangement where we can see and know each other through pictures and blogs, and browse for people having the same interests. If any of you want to join me on yahoo360, my yahoo id is jacmattvm@yahoo.com If we can have a similar interaction on AYP, would be very good.Dealing with trauma, advaita philosophy and taoism is very good. Those christian fanatics are a nuisance and cause most nuisance to Jesus they dont leave him in peace.
mystiq |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 08:27:55 AM
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Just an idea - why don't you join a martial arts class - this should be pretty developed in your area and you can have lots of fun and interaction with other ppl  |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 09:46:48 AM
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Hello
I think we all must go through this loneliness issue. As Jim I too am in an awkward and painful situation at the moment. Spiritual paths have always carried this problem but as AYP grows which it surely will you will begin to find people in your area that you can interact with. Meanwhile we are all friends here I know we cant meet face to face but the forum is a real lifeline for all of us.
So get out there and promote AYP anyway you can. Those cards are a brilliant idea you can drop them anywhere and some of them are bound to be followed up bringing more people to the site and the forum. We are small at the moment but growing all the time so don't despair 
RICHARD |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 10:29:09 AM
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Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. Oh, there are so many things that I can do and couldn't think of before. So many ways, and so many points of views. The difficulties are just in my mind....
joining Martial arts classes is a good idea. But the good teachers are always so welcomed (remember Hong Kong is so small and densely populated, and the quick and easy transport allow the teachers to find more students than they could handle), that they have to set the price quite high.
In fact, much in my mind have been changed since I meditated. The changes are positive. The pains come mainly from my regrets-- but it's meaningless. I tend to stick to the past crazily. My most happy moments are always in the past! I found that this tendency makes me very passive, regreting a lot in stead of creating great moments for people around. Now I get better and better since I meditated.
Today I found some new possibilities. Yesterday I felt pain and full of worries, and have serious insomnia. But today I almost recovered (temporaily). My calmness today surprised me a lot. I can look into the true/long term consequences of what previously would ignite me and create troubles for me.
My calmness is still somewhat in a passive mode. (btw, will it become a more active one?) But at least I am not making life worse actively!(which I always did before) Still much worries, but I think I can go through them. The main challenge for me now, is to manage the time for meditation as I go more outward. It's time to change my life now. I am spending more than 2-3 hours on yoga everyday, which I believe is the reason for my rather quick progress. As I move more outward, I may have to meditate in public transport or before bed time. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 12:22:10 PM
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| This is going to sound really cliched.....and it has nothing to do with yoga, so it's veering off-topic......but consider dance class (doesn't have to be ballroom...consider salsa/mambo/latin dancing, swing dancing, etc). Not just to meet people...dance is a good thing for you and your body. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 1:04:28 PM
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Sorry, I didn't see the last couple posts. .
Yes martial arts has the ingredients of physical exercise and other people; the recipe for fun and getting rid of negative emotions. some of them here actually have meditation connected with them, as part of the practice (as it should be). For a little while I studied Ninjutsu, and it was connected with Tendai buddhism and meditation.
Another point I want to make is not to judge people because of their beliefs. For instance, if you think Christians are wrong, it is better to try to be friends with them, and try to find out why they believe as they do.
Talk with the people whom you feel are so different from you, and show a genuine interest in ther beliefs. for instance, ask Christian people about their religion, then discuss the reasons you don't believe in it. don't tell them they are wrong because the book they have faith in has been manipulated. Instead maybe study the history of the bible so you can discuss the issue with them. Most of them won't know anything about it at all.
But the idea is to not incite heated arguments, but just to show interest in them and find out how they think, what they want from life, etc.
you can make friends with people who have radically different viewpoints if you act as the peace-keeper in your discussions. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 18 2006 1:06:02 PM |
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 4:34:57 PM
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Hi Alvin,
You show great courage for sharing with us so openly. There is some great advice in everyone's posts here. I know this is easier said than done, but consider this, if you will: That your negative feelings may be a sign of purification. Like when you're washing a dirty jar and the water gets all cloudy... thoughts and feelings that were always there, but repressed, start to come up. Try to let go and appreciate the process you're going through.
With how busy you say things are in Hong Kong, you seem to find enough time to do your AYP practices. I admire you for that. As long as you continue to do them, and live your life, things will get better. As far as the loneliness, some wise yogis/yoginis once told me that as we progress spiritually, we start to attract the people and things that we desire into our lives |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 6:47:16 PM
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Hi Alvin,
If you feel the need to ease your pain of the past in easier ways, I recommend you learn EFT as it can work very quickly and painlessly.The manual can be downloaded for free at www.Emofree.com and is simple and effective.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 01:10:46 AM
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Hi Dave,
I have been going through the link you gave and been reading through the first few pages of the manual. Their basic claim appears to be "Negative emotions like depression, phobias etc.. are due to a disruption of body's energy system and hence needs to be treated by bringing balance in the energy system. Where as conventional psychology treatments for -ve emotions focus on dealing with traumatic memory impressions they are not as effective as this method which is more spiritual based. This method is supposed to cure in minutes, the phobias that psychological science might take years to cure."
If this is true it really is a very good argument in favor of spirituality over science. Do you know of cases where this worked?
-Near
Genes are a result of karma RATHER THAN A CAUSE OF IT - Yogani |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 01:28:32 AM
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I asked that question in this thread and got a couple responses:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=812
I don't think they mean negative emotions are caused by the disruption of body energy. but that if you experience a negative emotion and there is a disruption in the meridian prana at that time, it causes you to get "stuck" and can cause a phobia or some other permanent aversion until that energy imbalance is corrected. In other words, the negative emotion doesn't just go away as they usually do. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 09:03:44 AM
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Dear Near,
Yes, I have used EFT to good effect.I used it on myself for only a severe nail biting habit I had all my life. I 'cured' this habit using EFT in 1 session of 10 minutes.I have also used it on at least two others for fear of flying(total cessation in 10 mins, and hair pulling habit. One lady I treated for severe eating disorder,(she woke at least 8 times a night and gorged on food for about 20 yrs).I treated her for 1 hr and the same night she only awoke once and never ate any food.
The 'experts' in USA have poo pooed EFT for 15 yrs and now they realise it works they are trying to get control of it through legislation I believe.Typical!I have many videos of EFT in action and one in particular treating Vietnam vets who have PTSD for many years and were treated by Gary Craig and his associate successfully.
The problem with conventional treatment is that even if they find the root cause of any illness, trauma etc, they do not have a tool for removing it. EFT is very effective for this.
When we go through life we get attachments from many life experiences and many are not 'good' ones.Suppose you break a leg as a child, the memory of the break will fade eventually as will the memory of the pain.The subconscious will still remember every part of the incident and causes a disruption to the energy circuits.This can manifest as anything whatsoever and does not have to have a similar connection to the incident.For instance the lady with the eating disorder had a sad memory of when her dog had to be 'put down'when she was a child.When I worked on this memory there was an instant shift in energies. I could sense them and she was tingling all over and hot.
Einstein tells us that we are simply energy and this is how healing works. A 'healer' simply enhances your bodies natural healing ability to effect a repair.The energy corrects energy circuits so we have correct flow.Just like repairing a loose wire in an elcetrical item.Incidentally meditation does the same thing as does the Kundalini. Purification leads to more enhanced healing ability so repairing the body.Hope this helps.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 09:56:23 AM
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Alvin said:
I learnt much more about life, both through the trauma and AYP. I get to know what I value most in my life. But so what? If I can return back to 3 years ago, everything would be fine. Now it's just regret and regret.
Alvin, did something in particular happen three years ago? Or is this just a general habit you have?
You can answer on the forum or send me a note if you want.
-D
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 11:03:06 AM
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Hi David,
How to send notes? Do you mean the e-mail poster? What's that for?
A story too long to tell here....Many things happened for the past few years, though what I had been noticing for the past 3 or 4 years was so radically different from what I value most (and regret most) for this few months. (notably after I started the AYP in Nov 05)
I've been in a deep depression since the end of 2002. Suicidal thoughts, extremely self-centered, loss of interests in everything which I once enjoy very much. I didn't see any moment or anything which I could truly enjoy without worries. Indeed there are. I just couldn't see. Only much later, especially in these few months, that I discovered there some most valuable moments in my life. I just couldn't see them before. I was living in a world which I created for myself. During that period, I did many things wrong. As I "wake up" from that stupid dream, things are different then. I lost many things. The really important things in life which I will never have the chance to get or to give again. The consequences of my mistakes and ignorance may take my beloved's life---I'm literal about this. I experienced both great loss and a deep regret. So how could I feel well, when I could see clearly now?
If you would like to hear, I can certain say more.
No matter what will happen next, I will have a difficult path to go for years. May be for my whole life.(hopefully not) That's something I've to pay for my mistakes. Also I have to be careful enough now not to lose further parts of my life (well, not much left besides my family). Fortunately I seems to have a better mind-set and attitude now.
Alvin |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 1:32:27 PM
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Depression is an awful thing. It takes away a lot from you. I am sorry Alvin you had to go through it. I went through a bad depression too after I had my second child. I cannot remember my children growing up. I lost almost 6 years of their lives. I wish I could turn the clock and give that little baby a big hug and actually feel it. I did everything for them, but I don't remember enjoying any of it. I watch videos of them, I can see a smile on my face and I can feel the pain in my heart.
The first good thing you did was to decide you did not want to live that way, you want your life back. Once you have that in yourself everything will just fall in its place. The second good thing was to make AYP a part of your life. Not only are the lessons a blessing(thank you Yogani), but there are such awesome people on this forum, who are ready to listen and help you with good advice and chocolates. Keep up your meditation and other practices you do. I have a hold on my life again and am making the best of it. I make sure I spend a lot of time with my kids and enjoy it, just to make up of the time I lost with them. Not that I don't wish I could turn back time.. ever so often I wish I could.. but that is not possible, so I try to make the most of today. If ever you feel the need to talk, just email me or David (that is what he meant by a note, I think?!?!). Just click on the name on the left and you get an option the send an email. For chocolates you need to get in touch with Jim.
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Edited by - Shanti on Feb 21 2006 2:05:04 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 3:28:17 PM
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>> If you would like to hear, I can certain say more.
Hello Alvin,
I would be happy to hear more, but think carefully about whether you wish to divulge it on a public forum, in which I think you have registered with your own name.
When I said you can send me a note, yes, I meant you can send me an email by clicking on my name.
Regards,
-D
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 7:00:01 PM
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I'd like to hear more, but I understand if you want to keep it private.
I've been through quite a bit of depression also.
Etherfish |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 12:01:52 AM
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Dear Alvin,
We have all made many mistakes in our lives some small and some we may have deeply regretted. There is little we can do about the past other than to accept our human nature to make mistakes, to learn from our experiences and to resolve to act differently if similar situations are to come our way again. Holding on to past pain and regret doesn't help us or those around us. There is no need to punish ourselves for our past mistakes just every need to learn from them and to eventually accept and move on.
I am sure I am not alone in saying that it shows that all the AYP practices and meditation you have been doing have already had an impact in the way you express yourself here in the forum and that you seem to be already healing and moving in the right direction. You are in a “letting go” process and on the path of healing, there will be good days, bumpy days and smooth days but the road will ultimately lead to peace and contentment.
Keep going and know that there will be a little more inner-light around the corner each day!
Anthem
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a painful path and spiritual friends
