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351 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 07 2005 : 05:17:20 AM
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274 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 0:20am
Subject: Jiddu Krishnamurthi, a useless sarcastic, confusing master nearoanoke
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I have been reading jiddu krishnamurthi's philosophies and speeches
and I sincerely feel ppl like him are not to lead the mankind into
light but to push it further into darkness. See his teachings here
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/index.htm
He never talks about solution. All that he does is to point out and
talk continously and sarcastically about human weaknesses. He for
sure is a self-realized man but his teachings and principles are of
no use to humanity. He NEVER EVER talks about how to improve
oneself. He even says that meditation is useless.
When I see ppl like Yogani who know so much but still help us learn
by explaining in such simple and easy-to-understand terms, I really
want to bow to them. I always think where would I be had it not been
for his teachings. Had it not been for yogani, these confusing
masters like jiddu would have surely eaten my brain.
Thank you my dear yogani. I love you so much.
277 From: Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:03am
Subject: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthi, a useless sarcastic, confusing master ashwinjlsun
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It is interesting that he was 'breed to lead the
theosophical society' from a young age, and he then
basically took an anti- approach to it all, and thru
the duality relationship rebelled against all forms of
organized spiritual practice. Yet at the end of his
life he came back to some sort of center/middle path
and started inquirng about mantra practice from other
masters.
hmmmm....
seems like 'no path' that he proclaimed in itself is a
'path'....
--- nearoanoke <nearoanoke@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have been reading jiddu krishnamurthi's
> philosophies and speeches
> and I sincerely feel ppl like him are not to lead
> the mankind into
> light but to push it further into darkness. See his
> teachings here
> http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/index.htm
>
> He never talks about solution. All that he does is
> to point out and
> talk continously and sarcastically about human
> weaknesses. He for
> sure is a self-realized man but his teachings and
> principles are of
> no use to humanity. He NEVER EVER talks about how to
> improve
> oneself. He even says that meditation is useless.
>
> When I see ppl like Yogani who know so much but
> still help us learn
> by explaining in such simple and easy-to-understand
> terms, I really
> want to bow to them. I always think where would I be
> had it not been
> for his teachings. Had it not been for yogani, these
> confusing
> masters like jiddu would have surely eaten my brain.
>
>
> Thank you my dear yogani. I love you so much.
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
292 From: "vasililisa" <eryugaia@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:41am
Subject: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthi, a useless sarcastic, confusing master vasililisa
Offline
Send Email
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...> wrote:
>
> I have been reading jiddu krishnamurthi's philosophies and speeches
> and I sincerely feel ppl like him are not to lead the mankind into
> light but to push it further into darkness. See his teachings here
> http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/index.htm
>
> He never talks about solution. All that he does is to point out and
> talk continously and sarcastically about human weaknesses. He for
> sure is a self-realized man but his teachings and principles are of
> no use to humanity. He NEVER EVER talks about how to improve
> oneself. He even says that meditation is useless.
>
> When I see ppl like Yogani who know so much but still help us learn
> by explaining in such simple and easy-to-understand terms, I really
> want to bow to them. I always think where would I be had it not
been
> for his teachings. Had it not been for yogani, these confusing
> masters like jiddu would have surely eaten my brain.
perhaps that might help you?
So, what you are saying really is...
that YOU find Krishnamurti's teachings confusing?
that you look for direction and solutions
...and find only more questions?
if you are confused by them then he must be wrong and bad?
I think Jiddu would invite you to cease from easy judgement
and to begin to inquire into the nature of your confusion.
:)
lili
301 From: "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:37am
Subject: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthi, a useless sarcastic, confusing master raw_obsidian
Offline
Send Email
Hello Nearoanoke,
There are many, many people who agree with you on this and I am one
of them.
In some cases we discover his enormous errors from direct
experience, as I did. When you find great spiritual and physical
benefit from a system, like yoga, you directly discover
Krishnamurti's enormous error in his repudiation of systems.
A major problem is that he did not understand the process and
paradoxes of teaching and systems. We teach to eliminate
conditioning, but to teach is to condition. At its best, it is a
form of conditioning which brings us into a better 'condition' and
eliminates other bad conditions. This was figured out a long time
ago in Zen, where they speak of Zen as a "thorn for the removal of a
thorn". Krishnamurti did not seem to grasp this and went on some
sort of hopeless crusade against conditioning itself. He
opposed "conditioning" and conditioned his followers into this same
opposition. So he assaulted 'systems', his followers following the
system he was inadvertently creating. He has a sort of neurotic
opposition to "decay", ("all systems lead to decay") as if we should
be searching for something which should not be leading to decay.
His errors may be largely due to conceit, which led to his go-it-
alone approach. He was overstretched, overpromoted from the
beginning. Imagine being told as a kid that you are the World
Teacher. I think he *never* recovered from this. He internalized
it. I believe he was no World Teacher. To internalize something of
yourself that is very wrong and out of balance is very limiting,
regardless of whether it is "I am useless" or "I am great". So if
you internalize "I am bad, I am useless" it cripples you, and if
you internalize "I am the World Teacher", this also wreaks
mischief. He was the Great Guru, who denied and repudiated the Guru
system and played the Guru in the process, and believed himself the
Great Guru to the end.
Oh, yes, believe me, he did believe himself the World Teacher,
although not necessarily consciously, or in those words. He
maintained the role of the World Teacher, while successfully dodging
it formally and getting off the hook for failing in that role.
Look at his final words, which are being suppressed by the
Theosophical Society because they hold the sad truth. Krishnamurti
stated on his deathbed that the world would not see, for centuries,
an Intelligence as great as the one that "used his body". Thanks
Great Intelligence.
And when and how could he learn enough to teach? He was crippled
with conceit and never studied any other spiritual systems to find
out the wisdom they had discovered. He knew very little about the
spiritual traditions of world he was in, and vastly underestimated
them relative to himself. So he made philosophical errors that had
been bypassed a long time ago in other 'systems'.
You may often find also an enormous philosophical hypocrisy in those
who 'follow' Krishnamurti or even hold him in very high esteem. They
oppose guru-hood, in lip-service anyway. But dare to question their
Shining Guru Krishnamurti and you will find yourself exposed to that
automatic, unquestioning assumption that you yourself are in error.
That's the guru system for you.
Regards
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...> wrote:
>
> I have been reading jiddu krishnamurthi's philosophies and speeches
> and I sincerely feel ppl like him are not to lead the mankind into
> light but to push it further into darkness. See his teachings here
> http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/index.htm
>
> He never talks about solution. All that he does is to point out and
> talk continously and sarcastically about human weaknesses. He for
> sure is a self-realized man but his teachings and principles are of
> no use to humanity. He NEVER EVER talks about how to improve
> oneself. He even says that meditation is useless.
>
> When I see ppl like Yogani who know so much but still help us learn
> by explaining in such simple and easy-to-understand terms, I really
> want to bow to them. I always think where would I be had it not
been
> for his teachings. Had it not been for yogani, these confusing
> masters like jiddu would have surely eaten my brain.
>
> Thank you my dear yogani. I love you so much.
302 From: "quickstudy05" <quickstudy05@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:52am
Subject: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthi, a useless sarcastic, confusing master quickstudy05
Offline
Send Email
Yogani expresses a similar view on the effectiveness of
Krishnamurthi's teachings, while trying really hard to give him the
benefit of the doubt. See lesson 84 - "The art of doing nothing."
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices/84
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@y...>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hello Nearoanoke,
>
> There are many, many people who agree with you on this and I am
one
> of them.
>
> In some cases we discover his enormous errors from direct
> experience, as I did. When you find great spiritual and physical
> benefit from a system, like yoga, you directly discover
> Krishnamurti's enormous error in his repudiation of systems.
>
> A major problem is that he did not understand the process and
> paradoxes of teaching and systems. We teach to eliminate
> conditioning, but to teach is to condition. At its best, it is a
> form of conditioning which brings us into a better 'condition' and
> eliminates other bad conditions. This was figured out a long time
> ago in Zen, where they speak of Zen as a "thorn for the removal of
a
> thorn". Krishnamurti did not seem to grasp this and went on some
> sort of hopeless crusade against conditioning itself. He
> opposed "conditioning" and conditioned his followers into this same
> opposition. So he assaulted 'systems', his followers following
the
> system he was inadvertently creating. He has a sort of neurotic
> opposition to "decay", ("all systems lead to decay") as if we
should
> be searching for something which should not be leading to decay.
>
> His errors may be largely due to conceit, which led to his go-it-
> alone approach. He was overstretched, overpromoted from the
> beginning. Imagine being told as a kid that you are the World
> Teacher. I think he *never* recovered from this. He internalized
> it. I believe he was no World Teacher. To internalize something
of
> yourself that is very wrong and out of balance is very limiting,
> regardless of whether it is "I am useless" or "I am great". So if
> you internalize "I am bad, I am useless" it cripples you, and if
> you internalize "I am the World Teacher", this also wreaks
> mischief. He was the Great Guru, who denied and repudiated the
Guru
> system and played the Guru in the process, and believed himself
the
> Great Guru to the end.
>
> Oh, yes, believe me, he did believe himself the World Teacher,
> although not necessarily consciously, or in those words. He
> maintained the role of the World Teacher, while successfully
dodging
> it formally and getting off the hook for failing in that role.
>
> Look at his final words, which are being suppressed by the
> Theosophical Society because they hold the sad truth. Krishnamurti
> stated on his deathbed that the world would not see, for
centuries,
> an Intelligence as great as the one that "used his body". Thanks
> Great Intelligence.
>
> And when and how could he learn enough to teach? He was crippled
> with conceit and never studied any other spiritual systems to find
> out the wisdom they had discovered. He knew very little about the
> spiritual traditions of world he was in, and vastly underestimated
> them relative to himself. So he made philosophical errors that had
> been bypassed a long time ago in other 'systems'.
>
> You may often find also an enormous philosophical hypocrisy in
those
> who 'follow' Krishnamurti or even hold him in very high esteem.
They
> oppose guru-hood, in lip-service anyway. But dare to question
their
> Shining Guru Krishnamurti and you will find yourself exposed to
that
> automatic, unquestioning assumption that you yourself are in
error.
> That's the guru system for you.
>
> Regards
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > I have been reading jiddu krishnamurthi's philosophies and
speeches
> > and I sincerely feel ppl like him are not to lead the mankind
into
> > light but to push it further into darkness. See his teachings
here
> > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/index.htm
> >
> > He never talks about solution. All that he does is to point out
and
> > talk continously and sarcastically about human weaknesses. He for
> > sure is a self-realized man but his teachings and principles are
of
> > no use to humanity. He NEVER EVER talks about how to improve
> > oneself. He even says that meditation is useless.
> >
> > When I see ppl like Yogani who know so much but still help us
learn
> > by explaining in such simple and easy-to-understand terms, I
really
> > want to bow to them. I always think where would I be had it not
> been
> > for his teachings. Had it not been for yogani, these confusing
> > masters like jiddu would have surely eaten my brain.
> >
> > Thank you my dear yogani. I love you so much.
304 From: "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:38am
Subject: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthi, a useless sarcastic, confusing master raw_obsidian
Offline
Send Email
Thankyou quickstudy. But Yogani is kind, while I am not.
Part of my situation is that I think that Krishnamurti was not only
not-so-special, and even poor, in ability to teach enlightnment,
but maybe not-so-special in the attainment of it.
I have seen such a neurotic clipped-ness about his speech and
demeanor, and we read so much about his Victorian concerns for
propriety and convention, and various details about his life and
development, that I wonder to what extent he was in fact even very
significantly self-realized.
Much of the entire impression could be caused by the original
enormous marketing campaign of Annie Besant and the Theosophists.
They manufactured the myth of Krishnamurti. If they did not promote
him and bring him such fame for his amazing wisdom and enlighenment,
would we assume he was "on top of the mountain?" as Yogani does?
Would anyone be reading his books? Would we be critiquing him now?
I say look at the man and his teachings. I don't think they would
have brought much attention to themselves by themselves. I think
Krishnamurti, sadly, may be a relatively ordinary Indian wise man
gone derailed in his teachings through overpromotion and conceit.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "quickstudy05" <quickstudy05@y...>
wrote:
>
> Yogani expresses a similar view on the effectiveness of
> Krishnamurthi's teachings, while trying really hard to give him the
> benefit of the doubt. See lesson 84 - "The art of doing nothing."
> http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices/84
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Nearoanoke,
> >
> > There are many, many people who agree with you on this and I am
> one
> > of them.
> >
> > In some cases we discover his enormous errors from direct
> > experience, as I did. When you find great spiritual and
physical
> > benefit from a system, like yoga, you directly discover
> > Krishnamurti's enormous error in his repudiation of systems.
> >
> > A major problem is that he did not understand the process and
> > paradoxes of teaching and systems. We teach to eliminate
> > conditioning, but to teach is to condition. At its best, it is
a
> > form of conditioning which brings us into a better 'condition'
and
> > eliminates other bad conditions. This was figured out a long
time
> > ago in Zen, where they speak of Zen as a "thorn for the removal
of
> a
> > thorn". Krishnamurti did not seem to grasp this and went on some
> > sort of hopeless crusade against conditioning itself. He
> > opposed "conditioning" and conditioned his followers into this
same
> > opposition. So he assaulted 'systems', his followers following
> the
> > system he was inadvertently creating. He has a sort of neurotic
> > opposition to "decay", ("all systems lead to decay") as if we
> should
> > be searching for something which should not be leading to decay.
> >
> > His errors may be largely due to conceit, which led to his go-it-
> > alone approach. He was overstretched, overpromoted from the
> > beginning. Imagine being told as a kid that you are the World
> > Teacher. I think he *never* recovered from this. He
internalized
> > it. I believe he was no World Teacher. To internalize something
> of
> > yourself that is very wrong and out of balance is very limiting,
> > regardless of whether it is "I am useless" or "I am great". So
if
> > you internalize "I am bad, I am useless" it cripples you, and
if
> > you internalize "I am the World Teacher", this also wreaks
> > mischief. He was the Great Guru, who denied and repudiated the
> Guru
> > system and played the Guru in the process, and believed himself
> the
> > Great Guru to the end.
> >
> > Oh, yes, believe me, he did believe himself the World Teacher,
> > although not necessarily consciously, or in those words. He
> > maintained the role of the World Teacher, while successfully
> dodging
> > it formally and getting off the hook for failing in that role.
> >
> > Look at his final words, which are being suppressed by the
> > Theosophical Society because they hold the sad truth.
Krishnamurti
> > stated on his deathbed that the world would not see, for
> centuries,
> > an Intelligence as great as the one that "used his body". Thanks
> > Great Intelligence.
> >
> > And when and how could he learn enough to teach? He was crippled
> > with conceit and never studied any other spiritual systems to
find
> > out the wisdom they had discovered. He knew very little about
the
> > spiritual traditions of world he was in, and vastly
underestimated
> > them relative to himself. So he made philosophical errors that
had
> > been bypassed a long time ago in other 'systems'.
> >
> > You may often find also an enormous philosophical hypocrisy in
> those
> > who 'follow' Krishnamurti or even hold him in very high esteem.
> They
> > oppose guru-hood, in lip-service anyway. But dare to question
> their
> > Shining Guru Krishnamurti and you will find yourself exposed to
> that
> > automatic, unquestioning assumption that you yourself are in
> error.
> > That's the guru system for you.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have been reading jiddu krishnamurthi's philosophies and
> speeches
> > > and I sincerely feel ppl like him are not to lead the mankind
> into
> > > light but to push it further into darkness. See his teachings
> here
> > > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/index.htm
> > >
> > > He never talks about solution. All that he does is to point out
> and
> > > talk continously and sarcastically about human weaknesses. He
for
> > > sure is a self-realized man but his teachings and principles
are
> of
> > > no use to humanity. He NEVER EVER talks about how to improve
> > > oneself. He even says that meditation is useless.
> > >
> > > When I see ppl like Yogani who know so much but still help us
> learn
> > > by explaining in such simple and easy-to-understand terms, I
> really
> > > want to bow to them. I always think where would I be had it not
> > been
> > > for his teachings. Had it not been for yogani, these confusing
> > > masters like jiddu would have surely eaten my brain.
> > >
> > > Thank you my dear yogani. I love you so much.
307 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 0:37pm
Subject: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurthi, a useless sarcastic, confusing master nearoanoke
Offline
Send Email
Very well said raw_obsidian. Wonderfully put.
He asks us to analyze and observe thoughts and "think deeply". I am
100% sure that wont lead us anywhere. Enlightenment is not a war on
conscious/intellect level. As many great ppl (including yogani and
vivekananda) put it spirituality is beyond the borders of intellect.
Infact Vivekananda used to argue and reason a lot for a long time
before he met ramakrishna paramhamsa and got introduced to spiritual
practices. He himself told that reasoning has a limit and the
superconsciousness cannot be felt in this limited plane of
reasoning.
And yogani has already told this and I also strongly beleieve that
when you get enlightnement and progress on spiritual path, your
compassion towards fellow beings increases. I dont find any
compassion is what he teaches. He is all the time finding faults
with human weaknesses. That wont take us anywhere. Giving a
judgement that meditation is useless is like the peak of stupidity i
feel.
In my view, he might be a good philospher but neither a good teacher
nor a person who knows things.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@y...>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hello Nearoanoke,
>
> There are many, many people who agree with you on this and I am
one
> of them.
>
> In some cases we discover his enormous errors from direct
> experience, as I did. When you find great spiritual and physical
> benefit from a system, like yoga, you directly discover
> Krishnamurti's enormous error in his repudiation of systems.
>
> A major problem is that he did not understand the process and
> paradoxes of teaching and systems. We teach to eliminate
> conditioning, but to teach is to condition. At its best, it is
a
> form of conditioning which brings us into a better 'condition' and
> eliminates other bad conditions. This was figured out a long time
> ago in Zen, where they speak of Zen as a "thorn for the removal
of a
> thorn". Krishnamurti did not seem to grasp this and went on some
> sort of hopeless crusade against conditioning itself. He
> opposed "conditioning" and conditioned his followers into this
same
> opposition. So he assaulted 'systems', his followers following
the
> system he was inadvertently creating. He has a sort of neurotic
> opposition to "decay", ("all systems lead to decay") as if we
should
> be searching for something which should not be leading to decay.
>
> His errors may be largely due to conceit, which led to his go-it-
> alone approach. He was overstretched, overpromoted from the
> beginning. Imagine being told as a kid that you are the World
> Teacher. I think he *never* recovered from this. He internalized
> it. I believe he was no World Teacher. To internalize something
of
> yourself that is very wrong and out of balance is very limiting,
> regardless of whether it is "I am useless" or "I am great". So if
> you internalize "I am bad, I am useless" it cripples you, and if
> you internalize "I am the World Teacher", this also wreaks
> mischief. He was the Great Guru, who denied and repudiated the
Guru
> system and played the Guru in the process, and believed himself
the
> Great Guru to the end.
>
> Oh, yes, believe me, he did believe himself the World Teacher,
> although not necessarily consciously, or in those words. He
> maintained the role of the World Teacher, while successfully
dodging
> it formally and getting off the hook for failing in that role.
>
> Look at his final words, which are being suppressed by the
> Theosophical Society because they hold the sad truth.
Krishnamurti
> stated on his deathbed that the world would not see, for
centuries,
> an Intelligence as great as the one that "used his body". Thanks
> Great Intelligence.
>
> And when and how could he learn enough to teach? He was crippled
> with conceit and never studied any other spiritual systems to find
> out the wisdom they had discovered. He knew very little about the
> spiritual traditions of world he was in, and vastly
underestimated
> them relative to himself. So he made philosophical errors that
had
> been bypassed a long time ago in other 'systems'.
>
> You may often find also an enormous philosophical hypocrisy in
those
> who 'follow' Krishnamurti or even hold him in very high esteem.
They
> oppose guru-hood, in lip-service anyway. But dare to question
their
> Shining Guru Krishnamurti and you will find yourself exposed to
that
> automatic, unquestioning assumption that you yourself are in
error.
> That's the guru system for you.
>
> Regards
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > I have been reading jiddu krishnamurthi's philosophies and
speeches
> > and I sincerely feel ppl like him are not to lead the mankind
into
> > light but to push it further into darkness. See his teachings
here
> > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/index.htm
> >
> > He never talks about solution. All that he does is to point out
and
> > talk continously and sarcastically about human weaknesses. He
for
> > sure is a self-realized man but his teachings and principles are
of
> > no use to humanity. He NEVER EVER talks about how to improve
> > oneself. He even says that meditation is useless.
> >
> > When I see ppl like Yogani who know so much but still help us
learn
> > by explaining in such simple and easy-to-understand terms, I
really
> > want to bow to them. I always think where would I be had it not
> been
> > for his teachings. Had it not been for yogani, these confusing
> > masters like jiddu would have surely eaten my brain.
> >
> > Thank you my dear yogani. I love you so much.
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