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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 02 2010 : 7:22:59 PM
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Hi All,
I've just recently discovered Jed McKenna. Jed is one of the most straightforward and authentic spiritual teachers, ever, in my opinion.
Jed tells it like it is; Jed McKenna is a pen-name, but whoever writes as Jed McKenna articulates the reality of enlightenment, and the way t/here, with an authenticity and a clarity rarely found anywhere.
Here are some of my favorite Jed McKenna quotes:
Suffering just means you’re having a bad dream. Happiness means you’re having a good dream. Enlightenment means getting out of the dream altogether.
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Enlightenment isn’t when you go there; it’s when there comes here.
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It’s ego – the false self – that exalts the guru and declares the teaching sacred, but nothing is exalted or sacred, only true or not true.
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Enlightenment is the unprogrammed state.
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I don’t have something you don’t; you believe something I don’t.
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The point is to wake up, not to earn a Ph.D. In waking up.
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The bottom line remains the same: you’re either awake or you’re not. One day, there it is. Nothing. No more enemies, no more battles.
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There’s nothing left to contend against and nothing left that must be done, and there will never be anything that must be done ever again.
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The you that you think of as you (and that thinks of you as you, and so on) is not you, it’s just the character that the underlying truth of you is dreaming into existence. Enlightenment isn’t in the character, it’s in the underlying truth.
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Wake up first. Wake up, and then you can double back and perhaps be of some use to others if you still have the urge. Wake up first, with pure and unapologetic selfishness, or you’re just another shipwreck victim floundering in the ocean and all the compassion in the world is of absolutely no use to the other victims floundering around you.
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The universe isn’t vague and ignorant. I am vague and ignorant. Something is true, and it doesn’t matter what it is, I’m not going to be false any more. I have not even the slightest trace of the slightest reservation that I would rather suffer and die figuring out what is true than continue this life as a slave to lies and ignorance.
-On the attitude needed for enlightenment
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I don’t see it as my role to save or rescue anybody any more than regular people feel the need to rescue each other from sleeping and dreaming.
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That’s how it is in dreams: thoughts become things practically before they’re thought.
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You can’t manage to avoid your own true nature forever. It’s a wonder anybody manages it at all.
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Who you are has little or nothing to do with you.
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There is no true self. Truth and self are mutually exclusive.
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This is about unknowing. All this so-called knowledge is exactly what stands between seeker and sought.
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The teachers we need will always be there when we need them; no reason to track down somebody else’s.
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The ‘I” casts off the illusion of ‘I’ and yet remains as ‘I’. Such is the paradox of self-realization. The realized do not see any contradiction in it.
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Before enlightenment, I believed my ego was me. Then enlightenment comes along and no more ego, only the underlying reality. Now it’s after enlightenment, and this ego might be slightly uncomfortable or ill-fitting at times, but it’s all I’ve got.
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The idea that your ego is destroyed in the process of enlightenment is roughly correct, but it’s not complete. Before enlightenment, you’re a human being in the world, just like everyone you see. During enlightenment, you realize that the human being that you thought you were is just a character in a play, and that the world you thought you were in is just a stage, so you go through a process of radical deconstruction of your character to see what’s left when it’s gone. The result isn’t enlightened-self or true-self, it’s no-self. When it’s all over it’s time to be a human being in the world again, and that means slipping back into costume and getting back onstage.
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Miracles are nature unimpeded, which is a good way of saying that if you take your hand off the tiller, the boat will steer itself and do a vastly better job of it than you ever could.
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Relax into the moment and let the universe do the driving. If there was a secret to happiness in life, I’d say that was it.
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Trust you develop a little at a time as you learn to relinquish the illusion of control.
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They have abandoned the illusion of control. It doesn’t matter why you do it, just that you do. This is the point of distinction and the root teaching of all major religions.
~On the power of spiritual devotion
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Fear and ego – in other words, ignorance – are keeping your hand on the tiller. Release the tiller for whatever reason, and the steering takes care of itself.
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Everyone’s grooving on the gurus, and everyone’s getting more and more spiritual, but nobody’s waking up.
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Go jump off a cliff. Don’t go near the cliff and contemplate jumping off. Don’t read a book about jumping off. Don’t study the art and science of jumping off. Don’t join a support group for jumping off. Don’t write poems about jumping off. Don’t kiss the ass of someone else who jumped off. Just jump.
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The difference between us isn’t that I’m enlightened and you’re not. The difference between us is that I know it, and you don’t.
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The truth is identical for both of us. I haven’t achieved a better status than you.
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There’s no such thing as instant enlightenment any more than there’s such a thing as an instant baby.
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Simply put, I don’t think. I don’t make choices or decisions. I don’t weigh possibilities and select one over others. Instead, I observe patterns and move with them.
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I used to try to be smart and now I don’t and everything works a whole lot better. Stopping being smart was one of the smartest things I’ve ever done.
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This is it. Not some other time, not some other place. Right here. Right now. I am standing at the exact center of infinity and I see beauty and perfection and absolute delight everywhere and in every thing. The touch of the slightest breeze, the sight of a single star through cloud-swept skies, the howls of coyote pups in the distance and the sheer glory and beauty of it all is enough to tear me to shreds and all I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you
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Truth isn’t an idea or a concept. It’s not in libraries or the words of sages. It doesn’t come in a flash of insight or a peak experience. It’s not a feeling of bliss or ecstasy. It’s not a concept to be understood or a feeling to be experienced. It’s not in your heart or your mind. It’s further.
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Spiritual awakening is about discovering what’s true. Anything that’s not about getting to the truth must be discarded. Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing. It’s not about becoming true; it’s about unbecoming false so that all that’s left is truth.
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No belief is true. No. Belief. Is. True.
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One millionth of one percent false is completely false. Everything in duality is false. False as in not true. Not true as in bullsh*t.
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This isn’t a song we’re singing or a mountain we’re climbing; it’s a dream we’re unweaving.
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If you're interested in "more Jed McKenna", this same post at Living Unbound site has links to his books.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 02 2010 10:39:46 PM |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2010 : 05:42:37 AM
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"It’s not about becoming true; it’s about unbecoming false so that all that’s left is truth."
For some reason, that line leapt out at me 
I came across Jed McKenna's stuff a couple of years ago, and really didn't know what to make of it at all. It seemed then a little 'clinical', or perhaps 'arid' is a better way of putting it. Interesting to see some of his words again - and a different response on my part, this time.
Thanks, Kirtanman |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2010 : 4:40:54 PM
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ROTFL
Hilarious!
Hahahahahahahahaha!
I love this! Must get the books! THANKS, Kirtan! |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2010 : 6:32:53 PM
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Kirtanman,
I thought you follow authentic nondualism. You should know it is all about distinguishing "That" (clarity) from mind. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jun 03 2010 6:38:46 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2010 : 7:17:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Kirtanman,
I thought you follow authentic nondualism. You should know it is all about distinguishing "That" (clarity) from mind.
Well I wouldn't say I follow it, but I think I get what you mean (that yes, for me non-duality is synonymous with reality). That's a key reason why I like Jed McKenna (his clear and emphatic articulation of non-duality); where do you see something other than non-dualism in anything he says?
"One millionth of one percent false is completely false. Everything in duality is false. False as in not true. Not true as in bullsh*t."
~Jed McKenna
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2010 : 7:17:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by amoux
"It’s not about becoming true; it’s about unbecoming false so that all that’s left is truth."
For some reason, that line leapt out at me
I came across Jed McKenna's stuff a couple of years ago, and really didn't know what to make of it at all. It seemed then a little 'clinical', or perhaps 'arid' is a better way of putting it. Interesting to see some of his words again - and a different response on my part, this time.
Thanks, Kirtanman
Hey, you're welcome, Amoux; glad you found it useful!
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2010 : 7:25:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
ROTFL
Hilarious!
Hahahahahahahahaha!
I love this! Must get the books! THANKS, Kirtan!
You're welcome, emc!
Yeah; I think you'll like the books .... the quotes are a decent representation ... but the entire books are WAY better!!
Not only is Jed's articulation of enlightenment clear, fun and straightforward, but he also gives the best description of what day to day life in enlightenment is like, that I've seen. He demystifies a lot of the presumptions, in ways that resonate as very authentic, with me at least; he's very "real world", while still authentically enlightened.
Very much "Adyashanti with the gloves off!"
(There's some conjecture in the "blogosphere" that Jed McKenna *is* Adyashanti writing under a pen name; I thought it was possible at first, too, but after reading all three books, I don't think so .... but "ya never know", I suppose.  )
Whoever Jed McKenna is, he's very much the real deal, and his books are very much worth reading (for anyone drawn to do so), I'd say.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2010 : 05:28:47 AM
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Since there's so much down to earth descriptions with a fantastic humour, I'd say Jed is probably a SHE, not a HE! 
(had to make the remark just to stir your assumptions a bit... ) |
Edited by - emc on Jun 04 2010 05:56:09 AM |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2010 : 11:45:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Since there's so much down to earth descriptions with a fantastic humour, I'd say Jed is probably a SHE, not a HE!
(had to make the remark just to stir your assumptions a bit... )
Stir away!!
..... and hey, "ya never know", I suppose!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
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ravenscroft
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2010 : 2:09:16 PM
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I am ahabcptn..creator of the JED videos
and nerdy jed fan
love the positive comments on them
thanks all
I have been working on a new project now - but I may make one more new video now that I have his last audiobook on the computer |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2010 : 10:29:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ravenscroft
I am ahabcptn..creator of the JED videos
and nerdy jed fan
love the positive comments on them
thanks all
I have been working on a new project now - but I may make one more new video now that I have his last audiobook on the computer
Hi Ravenscroft,
Welcome to the AYP Forum!
Thanks VERY much for creating those videos; they're truly awesome, and a great representation of Jed's work!
And *you* are actually directly responsible for getting me to do something I never thought I'd actually do in my life ....... namely ......
Read Moby Dick.
Which I'm doing right now; I'm about 90% through it.
Jed nailed it (he discovered what Moby Dick is actually about; something no one else has managed in over 150 years, it seems) ... and, as he writes, regarding the book people think it is ..... "it's not that book; it's not even that kind of book" .... and he's infinitely, utterly correct.
WOW.
And it's amazing that, as far as I know, no one else has ever figured it out; they all think it's a story about a psycho sea captain who goes full-goose bozo after having one of his favorite appendages become whale chowder ............. though, as Jed says in Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment ................ Moby Dick is indeed the American Mahabharata.
It's all in there; it's the war for Enlightenment; the battle to wake up from the dream; just like the Bhagavad Gita, only updated with 19th Century Whaling symbolism, instead of ancient Indian war symbolism.
Amazing.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Thanks for your other videos, too! AhabCapn has a bunch of other good ones from Jed's books, but featuring quotes from U.G. Krishnamurti, and poems from Walt Whitman, etc. "Highly Recommended."
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2010 : 12:50:40 PM
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| Welcome to AYP, ravenscroft |
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ravenscroft
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2010 : 3:22:40 PM
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sure thing
it was a pleasure creating them
I didn't want to look like I was promoting my stuff but
me and a few of my pals started
www.enlightenmentdudes.com
Video book reviews about this stuff
you may see some similarities in those videos as my ahab work
wish you all the best!
Jim |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2010 : 6:15:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ravenscroft
sure thing
it was a pleasure creating them
I didn't want to look like I was promoting my stuff but
me and a few of my pals started
www.enlightenmentdudes.com
Video book reviews about this stuff
you may see some similarities in those videos as my ahab work
wish you all the best!
Jim
Ah... THAT explains a LOT!!
... the only other Jed McKenna vids on YouTube were the book reviews from Enlightenment Dudes; I listened to part of one (for Spiritually Incorrect) ... it sounded quite good! I just read all three books, back to back, a couple of weeks ago, with intermittent pauses for food and sleep - "hence this thread" ... and so, I didn't feel the need to go through the reviews, but if you haven't read the books ... and are thinking about it ... the review vids seemed very well done).
Jed McKenna's books are THAT good, and Jed is ALL the way in my Enlightenment Booktheon {like "Pantheon ... except with, well, books .... } of "books by":
Yogani, Adyashanti, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Tau Malachi & ......... Jed.
In his books, Jed mentions surfing the Web and checking out books to see who's articulating the reality of enlightenment well; I do exactly the same ... and like Jed, I find very few; Jed is most definitely one of the reality-based ones ... and even more importantly, one of the authors/teachers who can help people know enlightenment in experience.
And basically, we're (AYP Forum) cool with people mentioning-promoting their stuff, in context with other, regular participation in the AYP Forum, and/or mentioning resources that are likely to be of interest .... and it sounds like you've got the right attitude (i.e. even your mention of Enlightenment Dudes is in context with this thread, and it's a resource that I, at least, very much appreciate knowing about).
If you do a new Jed video, please let us know.
If you're "taking requests", I halfway thought of getting the audiobook of Spiritually Incorrect, and doing a "Moby Dick" (Jed video) ... but if you feel like it, please do!
Just as some people undoubtedly enjoy your Jed-derived U.G. Krishnamurti videos, and Whitman videos (I certainly did! Thanks for those, too! ) ... I think people would enjoy a Jed-derived Moby Dick vid, too. A lot more people are likely to be exposed to the info (of Moby Dick being an exquisitely-symbol'd enlightenment roadmap) on YouTube than via Jed's books, I'd guess.
("I can see it all now --> ) .... the video starts with cool enraged whale and Captain Ahab images ..... .... "Moby Dick is not the book people think ... it's not even that kind of book", "Herman Melville completed the journey ... and Moby Dick is like a postcard sent from that place" (or however that quote goes, I'm operating from Kirtanmaniacal memory, which has been known to be less than 100% accurate at times .... ).
Thanks Again!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2010 : 11:17:51 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
If you haven't already, if you are looking for unique perspectives, you may consider reading Byron Katie's "A Thousand Names For Joy" she speaks from the perspective of One Mind in one of the clearest ways I have ever encountered. Her experience after awakening was coming from the extreme of having no identification with being human and having to learn at age 43 how to function in a balanced way in this world.
Also in his latest book The Fifth Agreement, Don Miguel Ruiz describes life after enlightenment in his own unique way. In person he speaks from a perspective of unity and the divine love flows out of him in very palpable ways.
What books by Tau Malachi do you recommend? I would be interested in reading his work. |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2010 : 05:52:56 AM
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Yes, "A Thousand Names for Joy" is a great book. I remember reading it for the first time, and getting an inkling - and then just a mixture of tears of joy and a LOT of laughter. And just space opening up within. Bliss
BK's books are all good - but there's something special about this one, for me. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2010 : 10:12:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Hi Kirtanman,
If you haven't already, if you are looking for unique perspectives, you may consider reading Byron Katie's "A Thousand Names For Joy" she speaks from the perspective of One Mind in one of the clearest ways I have ever encountered. Her experience after awakening was coming from the extreme of having no identification with being human and having to learn at age 43 how to function in a balanced way in this world.
Also in his latest book The Fifth Agreement, Don Miguel Ruiz describes life after enlightenment in his own unique way. In person he speaks from a perspective of unity and the divine love flows out of him in very palpable ways.
What books by Tau Malachi do you recommend? I would be interested in reading his work.
Thanks, Anthem!
I may well check those out; I know Katie and Don Miguel are both enlightened, and I enjoy both their work (I met Don Miguel, years ago - he's a truly warm, wonderful guy!)
I didn't mean to imply that anyone else's work didn't warrant placement in my (spontaneously derived) "Booktheon" {<--- by the way, to all reading} - I don't separate stuff out quite that much, these days - it was mostly a flash of inspiration to communicate the authors that I feel have been most powerful at offering unvarnished articulation of truth in my own experience .... but quite a few others have been major, too.
The entire point of even saying that the way I did was just *how* clear Jed McKenna is, in terms of "on the ground" enlightenment dynamics; similar to Adya or Yogani, I'd say; simply a different, equally clear voice.
A lot of the others I could have listed (i.e. Swami Lakshmanjoo) involve a fair amount of involved learning of a new (for most people "model"), whereas Yogani, Adya, Jed, Ramana, Nisargadatta & Jed -- don't involve a model, at all.
I realize Katie and Don Miguel don't, either, but candidly, have thought of them as working more with early-stage practitioners, while recognizing that they're enlightened, themselves.
I may well check out the books, though; I was very impressed with her "Question Your Thinking, Change The World".
RE: Tau Malachi, I'd recommend Gnosis of the Cosmic Christ; it's kind of his foundational work, though they're all good, and if you're drawn to any of his other books, you really can't go wrong.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 10 2010 10:13:50 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2010 : 09:33:26 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
So recently started reading Jed McKenna's book on your recommendation, it is definitely well written and an entertaining read, so thank you for that.
Although I haven't finished the first one yet, I am quickly getting the impression from Jed's writing of his own experience, of someone who perceives "nothingness", doesn't have an abiding perspective of unity 24/7 and has planted his flag in the ground and proclaimed "this (I am none of it or i am abiding nothingness) is the definition of enlightenment" and more importantly "I am enlightened" not so ironically two things he rails against often in his book. He also anoints others who he has taught as having "achieved" a similar perspective as having made it to "enlightenment" as well. Not to mention another classic case of someone saying practices aren't necessary, well for many they are at least until they aren't.
I bring it up here because from my perspective it is important for people who are actively engaged in practices or searching for the truth to not choose a label for enlightenment or settle on a definition of it. We are seekers until we aren't. Planting the flag in the ground and proclaiming "I have made it" is a sure sign of identification of the "I" thought.
The word "enlightenment" is a simply a label or a definition and for what exactly? That which can never be labeled or defined? My question is at what point or after what experience is someone going to point and say, "ah yes, this particular experience, this is enlightenment"? It is undefinable and more importantly, "I" (simply a thought with a sense of self importance unto itself) can never own it any more than "I" can be anything.
Jed also talks frequently of his experience of frustration, anger, hate, irritation etc. all examples of unbalanced perspective. Meaning those emotions point to an exclusively or predominantly negative perception or thought about a given object or experience etc. When thoughts that give rise to emotional reactions like those above are inquired into, it can be shown that those thoughts are not absolutely true and show that the mind was fixated on only one side of the equation of duality, hence unbalanced in this regard. Every experience has two sides and when only one is seen, we suffer.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of valuable insights in his books and great pointers and the book and Jed's teachings do cut to the heart of the matter in many instances. I think it is important to keep an open mind at all times, about our own condition and that of others. To think or proclaim that you have made it is a sure sign you haven't. There is nowhere to make it to and being aware of that is joy unto itself.
A perspective for whatever it is worth. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2010 : 5:34:08 PM
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Hi Anthem,
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Hi Kirtanman,
So recently started reading Jed McKenna's book on your recommendation, it is definitely well written and an entertaining read, so thank you for that.
Cool, you're welcome; glad you're enjoying the book.
quote:
Although I haven't finished the first one yet, I am quickly getting the impression from Jed's writing of his own experience, of someone who perceives "nothingness", doesn't have an abiding perspective of unity 24/7 and has planted his flag in the ground and proclaimed "this (I am none of it or i am abiding nothingness) is the definition of enlightenment" and more importantly "I am enlightened" not so ironically two things he rails against often in his book. He also anoints others who he has taught as having "achieved" a similar perspective as having made it to "enlightenment" as well. Not to mention another classic case of someone saying practices aren't necessary, well for many they are at least until they aren't.
Well, as they felt the need to emphasize as far back as the Rig Veda, and the Tao Te Ching:
“Ekam sad viprah bahudha vadanti”.
Truth is one, sages call it variously.
~Rig Veda I-164-46
"The Tao which can be spoken of is not the Tao."
~Tao Te Ching
I see Jed as basically being a modern American version of Nisargadatta, or maybe Adyashanti's less-polite brother.
A lot of people have taken exception to the same exact kinds of statements by Nisargadatta and Adyashanti, that you're taking exception to, from Jed McKenna, here.
This is up to you, of course, but maybe take the book as a whole, as much as you can (i.e. the same guy who made the statements you're taking exception to, also said each of the things quoted at the start of this thread; he also says lots of other things, that in my experience, only an enlightened person {quote-unquote, of course, since "persons" can't get enlightened} can say (write), in situations so diverse that it's not exactly possibly to fake (in my estimation).
quote:
I bring it up here because from my perspective it is important for people who are actively engaged in practices or searching for the truth to not choose a label for enlightenment or settle on a definition of it.
Agreed; labels and definitions are always barriers.
I took Jed's expressions regarding enlightenment more as an attempt to express what can't be expressed, than as a definition.
quote:
We are seekers until we aren't. Planting the flag in the ground and proclaiming "I have made it" is a sure sign of identification of the "I" thought.
Are you sure of this?
The reason I ask is:
Many enlightened teachers do exactly that, while also explaining that there is no "I" to get enlightened. However, inserting the qualifier "But, of course, there's no one to be enlightened" every single time the topic comes up, would get a bit unwieldy.
And so, some teachers can and do use the statement "I'm enlightened" (or "... a Jnani", or "... the Self", or whatever), while also making clear in other statements, that the dissolution of the the fictitious limited idea-of-self is exactly what precipitates enlightenment.
In the quotes that started this thread, Jed says:
"There is no true self. Truth and self are mutually exclusive."
That tells me that when he says, "I'm enlightened", the "I'm" part of that rather short sentence is more conversational convenience, than anything; the "enlightened" part is simply accurate (I would say).
quote:
The word "enlightenment" is a simply a label or a definition and for what exactly? That which can never be labeled or defined?
Yes, exactly - a point Jed makes throughout the books, quite a few times, in one way or another, which is why I take him to be describing enlightenment, and the distinctions between enlightened/awake and "not", rather than saying "here's the single definition of enlightenment".
quote:
My question is at what point or after what experience is someone going to point and say, "ah yes, this particular experience, this is enlightenment"?
Enlightenment has nothing to do with experience, ultimately. Enlightenment is usually a term used to indicate the actual shift from sense-of-self being comprised of the ever-shifting conditioned amalgam of thoughts, feelings, memories and ideas, to knowing self (aka non-self ) as "abiding non-dual awareness" (Jed's term; one I like a lot). This shift is inherently permanent.
Growth, change and becoming of course continue, and even accelerate (with all that energy that used to go into maintaining unenlightenment freed up) on the levels of manifestation and day-to-day life (Jed joins quite a few other teachers in saying this integration tends to take five to ten years -- which is where I would say "but that time-frame can't be defined that concretely". )
That's just usually where the general line is drawn (time-frame wise, and enlightenment-wise).
An analogy that just came to me:
We're talking about whether we can ever really place a road sign indicating the way to New York in enough of a proper relationship/direction to the actual city of New York to be of use.
It sounds like you're saying we can't, for a variety of reasons, and I'm saying we can, acknowledging that the road sign and the city are not at all the same thing.
I don't know if that helps; it just "showed up", so I'm including it.
quote:
It is undefinable and more importantly, "I" (simply a thought with a sense of self importance unto itself) can never own it any more than "I" can be anything.
Well, of course ...... but if you've ever been around people who therefore try to go with only speaking in sentences like "there was then going to the store; after that, eating dinner happened", etc. (and please know: I'm not dissing anyone; I kinda-sorta did this myself a bit, for a minute or two ... I see it as understandable; it's a way of trying to get what life with no separate self is like; a reality that language doesn't support a-tall, and so .... --->) .... this manner of expression gets very awkward, within a very brief period of time, as I'm pretty sure most of us would agree.
What would you have Jed do? Say "enlightenment is here" or "truth has been realized and is now emanating via the appearance of this body-mind" .... every single time "I'm enlightened" also fits?
Does anyone (enlightened or not) do that?
(I sure hope not!! )
quote:
Jed also talks frequently of his experience of frustration, anger, hate, irritation etc. all examples of unbalanced perspective.
I don't recall "hate", but I recall him mentioning the rest of those .... much as at least Nisargadatta and Adyashanti have both done, for their entire teaching careers.
What's the problem with expressing actual experience?
Anger doesn't dissolve in enlightenment, as (again) Nisargadatta and Adyashanti, among quite a few other enlightened teachers, have emphasized. A lot. Jed is just one of "that kind" rather than the "never admit or mention anger" kind; that's all.
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Meaning those emotions point to an exclusively or predominantly negative perception or thought about a given object or experience etc.
I would say that they point more to something pissing one off for a minute or two.
Heck, Nisargadatta talks of being irritated at his lunch being served late in I Am That; Adyashanti talks about getting extremely frustrated with his computer, and that "even enlightenment doesn't fix that!"
Which, yes, is a joke ... a joke with a point: normal humanity doesn't dissolve in enlightenment; it's just restored to its natural place, allowing for life to be enjoyed in actual, natural liberation, rather than as a slave to ideas of any kind ... including ideas about what is or isn't experienced in enlightenment.
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When thoughts that give rise to emotional reactions like those above are inquired into, it can be shown that those thoughts are not absolutely true and show that the mind was fixated on only one side of the equation of duality, hence unbalanced in this regard. Every experience has two sides and when only one is seen, we suffer.
Jed well knows that no thought is true; I'm pretty sure he says this repeatedly in the book ... or, he at least demonstrates that he knows it, well.
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Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of valuable insights in his books and great pointers and the book and Jed's teachings do cut to the heart of the matter in many instances. I think it is important to keep an open mind at all times, about our own condition and that of others. To think or proclaim that you have made it is a sure sign you haven't.
Well, then -- again, I guess if that means Jed hasn't, then Nisargadatta or Adyashanti haven't either (and I'm sure some people may hold those opinions).
Keeping an open mind doesn't mean negating reality in the name of spiritual correctness, I would say (there's probably a reason Jed's second book is called "Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment!" )
If one is living in-as abiding non-dual awareness, most people who are converse with enlightenment would agree that that's (<- "abiding in non-dual awareness") at least reasonably termed enlightenment; it's real; nothing else is.
If, on the other hand, someone is lived by the aggregate of conditioned evaluations, that's usually called unenlightenment.
Ultimately, realizing the difference between these two conditions (reality and dreaming) is important, regardless of what either one of those conditions is called, specifically.
How important?
It's pretty much the only thing that really is important. It's what allows waking up from the dream to actually happen.
And so, I'd respectfully suggest: maybe don't be quite so hard on someone who expresses this ultimately important truth simply and directly.
I'd say that the true, accurate and clear expression of what enlightenment is (regardless of whatever, exactly, it may be called) is only infinitely more important than not offending someone's sensibilities (about enlightenment, or about anything else).
As Adyashanti says, "I'm not one of those spiritual comfy guys; I'm a spiritual alarm clock."
For Jed McKenna, multiply that attitude by at least ten ... and you might be able to get how an enlightened guy can sound like he sounds, and still be fully enlightened (See: Nisargadatta Maharaj )
If you don't like certain facets of Jed's expression, that's fine ... but you might not want to declare him unenlightened, just yet.
Or you might.
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There is nowhere to make it to and being aware of that is joy unto itself.
Beautifully put, and a reality Jed attests to throughout all three books, simply in different words.
However, just as you point out the need for practices (as Jed does, too, he just focuses on a single, inquiry-oriented practice, exactly as Nisargadatta and Ramana did), I would say:
For most of us, the truth of the statement above is hard to realize in experience when we're being run by all the thoughts, feelings, memories and ideas collectively thought of as "me"; a moment of utter peace, clarity, freedom and acceptance is a rare, exceptional and beautiful occurrence.
If we don't both recognize that it's all these crazy ideas which emanate from a mistaken understanding of self that comprise the problem, living the truth of "There is nowhere to make it to and being aware of that is joy unto itself.", as the norm, in every moment, or nearly so, is impossible.
Enlightenment (by any name), is the condition where the disturbance-memories thought of as "me", no longer have the power to block the light of abiding non-dual awareness, and thus life is restored to its original natural condition, living unbound, consciously knowing that ""There is nowhere to make it to and being aware of that is joy unto itself."
And so, I would say that anyone who can help people understand the difference between the dream-state and reality, and who is doing so in ways that can help people make that transition, is performing a true service of near-infinite value, whether or not they utter the words "I'm enlightened".
And in connection with that, I would say that making the statement "I'm enlightened" doesn't mean that one is referring to the limited "I", especially when they've said many, many things (please see the Jed McKenna quotes at the beginning of this thread) ), which indicate that they well understand they are not the limited "I".
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A perspective for whatever it is worth.
And a good one (I like dialog like this, where someone reading, who may or may not start the thread with interest in Jed McKenna, can read some alternate opinions, and thereby get a more broad set of information from a given thread).
Thanks for your comments. I'll be curious if you still feel the same way by the end of the first book, or by the end of the second or third, if you read beyond the first.
I think it's fair to say that Jed McKenna is not for everyone, by a long shot.
However, some of us resonate with him, big time ... and I see him as one of the most usefully clear and direct enlightened teachers - ever (for whatever that may be worth, for anyone reading).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- I'm not sure if maybe Jed's holding back a little, here ( ) ... but the following summary of his overall perspective might help to clarify his feelings on some of the items mentioned in this thread:
"Truth is one, is non-dual, is infinite, is one without other. Truth is dis-illusion, no-self, unity. There’s nothing to say about it; nothing to feel about it, nothing to know about it. You are true, or you are a lie, as in ego-bound, as in dual. As in asleep."
~Jed McKenna
(I just heard it again while watch-listening to the first YouTube video, linked above.)
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 13 2010 8:04:48 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2010 : 10:53:07 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
We can speculate on other teachers inner condition until the cows come home but never actually know. Only they can know. Yes Adyashanti said he was enlightened, I heard him pronounce it sometimes in his earlier years of teaching, haven't heard him say it about himself in recent times or in his recent book, you have more intimate knowledge of him, maybe you have heard otherwise.
I don't know enough about Nisargadatta to comment. I have read "I Am That" enjoyed it, seen some videos, great stuff.
The short of it is, my perception of enlightenment is a continuum as described in the AYP lessons as follows:
<--------------|---------------------------|------------------------|------------>
Duality------Continual Perception------Increasing------------------24/7 unity
Full-time----of nothingness-----------unity perspective------------sensory perception
24-7-------24-7 abiding witness------increasing bliss/love---------24/7 a love/bliss
----------------------------------not yet a 24/7 experience------perceptual experience
- Traveling this way ---> leads to more perception of unity and the mind spends less time in dual thinking. There are still many instances of duality in-between shortening in duration yielding longer moments of unity experience.
By his own description, Jed has only had the occasional experiences of unity, it is not an abiding condition of his. A lot of people and especially self-proclaimed enlightened teachers seem to fall into the trap of mistaking "their own truth" for "the truth" and then telling everyone else they are wrong if it doesn't match up with their own perception of the truth. Truth is a very relative term, from the absolute that nothing is actually true, to something that is a lie for one person is true for another depending on the perspective. My lie yesterday is my truth today and visa-versa.
It seems to be the case for Jed, as he communicates often in his book that he is merely content and that unity experience or "mysticism", as he seems to refer to it, is not a condition of enlightenment, he spends a fair amount of time in dual emotional states as he describes repeatedly. Nothing wrong with this of course, but he is quite clearly describing his own condition, from my perspective, nearer the first vertical mark from the left above.
The reason I wrote the my first post above was because I objected to Jed's claim of being enlightened as potentially misleading for his readers and students and his presentation of his definition of enlightenment as the absolute truth on the subject, potentially derailing for people. Upon reflection though, each teacher (each human being for that matter) will have something of value to communicate, so in one way or another the student can benefit if they are true in their intentions, it is a lesson either way.
From my perspective, there is a distinction to me of a teacher saying to someone, "yes that is how jnani sees the world", "yes, I am jnani," to expedite understanding in the student or "the perspective of unity here is such and such..." again to help in understanding v. "yes I am enlightened, I am the real deal etc." and go on about it unasked without context to questioning repeatedly etc. Again my perspective. There is a sense of contraction felt in the latter and a sense of expansion in the former, it all depends on the context.
I agree with your points about conversational convenience.
quote:
Enlightenment has nothing to do with experience, ultimately.
I think it can also be said that it has everything to do with experience. Non-duality or unity is the frontier where language breaks down and no longer serves well for description.
quote:
Enlightenment is usually a term used to indicate the actual shift from sense-of-self being comprised of the ever-shifting conditioned amalgam of thoughts, feelings, memories and ideas, to knowing self (aka non-self ) as "abiding non-dual awareness" (Jed's term; one I like a lot). This shift is inherently permanent.
Until all the objects/ experiences of duality have been joined/ balanced in a perspective of unity, in other words seeing both sides of everything (can this ever happen? It is an infinite universe so who knows) there will be many instances of time spent in a dual perspective. As you mentioned it can be a couple minutes or it can be a couple decades, but an emotional reaction of anger, hate, irritation etc. are all pointers to a perspective from a state of duality, in other words temporarily (however long) of seeing an object or experience as negative for the perceiver in some way or another.
This can work the other way too, perceiving something as exclusively positive, pain will be felt when this perception is challenged. To the mind that has a habit of letting-go or accepting with ease, as you point out it won't last long.
From my perspective there is a big distinction between having an emotional reaction of some kind and speaking/ reacting from it and using or acting (pretending) one out in order to get the point across.
You mention repeatedly that I say Jed is not enlightened, just to be clear I said that proclaiming that "I am enlightened" is a sure sign of identification of "I". It is not an absolute sign, just a sure sign, the AYP lessons point this out on numerous occasions including the current one just written. His condition as he describes it at least falls under the AYP Enlightenment Milestones, just more near the beginning.
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And so, I would say that anyone who can help people understand the difference between the dream-state and reality, and who is doing so in ways that can help people make that transition, is performing a true service of near-infinite value, whether or not they utter the words "I'm enlightened".
Yes I see it this way too.
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Edited by - Anthem on Jun 15 2010 11:05:02 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2010 : 7:10:16 PM
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Hi Anthem,
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Hi Kirtanman,
We can speculate on other teachers inner condition until the cows come home but never actually know. Only they can know.
All I'm saying is that teachers such as Nisargadatta, Adyashanti and Jed McKenna articulate the realities of enlightenment in ways that are essentially too comprehensive and authentic to be faked.
From that actuality (the accuracy of their words in pointing to enlightenment; the "finger pointing at the moon", as it were), I'm comfortable inferring the enlightenment of those teachers (meaning, per extensive discussion in this and other threads "enlightenment emanates via those body-minds and their expression"), as well as others, who I've mentioned over time.
Not everyone may be as comfortable as I am drawing that conclusion, and I of course respect this, if so.
And I agree, too: it's not about "who's enlightened", and yet it's also not about (in my opinion) never daring to comment on someone's apparent enlightenment level.
There's a huge variance in quality of teaching out there, and all I'm saying is: Jed McKenna is one of a very small handful who comes across to me as utterly enlightened, or at the very least, his teachings and his words come across to me as utterly enlightened, as thus I recommend his teachings as highly as I can, and as highly as I do anyone's.
Fair enough?
The value of enlightenment teachings, in my opinion, has nothing to do with how nice, blissful or loving someone seems, and everything to do with how well they articulate truth.
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Yes Adyashanti said he was enlightened, I heard him pronounce it sometimes in his earlier years of teaching, haven't heard him say it about himself in recent times or in his recent book, you have more intimate knowledge of him, maybe you have heard otherwise.
Well, I think that was kind of my point: whether or not Adyashanti or Nisargadatta have ever uttered the words "I'm enlightened", the awareness animating (or, in Nisargadatta's case, "which animated") those body-minds is/was understood by many to be enlightened, as the term is most commonly defined (i.e. truth-realized; not confused in any way about their own nature, nor in direct conjunction with that, the nature of reality).
Adyashanti has said "If someone tells you they're enlightened, they're not ... me's don't get enlightened."
I could have used that as a yardstick to dismiss Jed McKenna ... and I could have missed out on the goldmine of Jed McKenna's teachings by proceeding that way.
I'm very glad I didn't do that.
Jed McKenna, when he says "I'm enlightened" is rather clearly not referring to the "limited I" .... he spends probably ten times the amount of book-space, clarifying the non-I nature of enlightenment, than he does saying "I'm enlightened" (which he says all of two or three times in the entire book, and always as a direct answer to a question, or once, jokingly, "And well, I'm the enlightened guy, and so ....").
He also spends a LOT of ink sounding alternately wise, clear, loving, humble and amazingly insightful (in my opinion).
I've gone through the first book a fair amount, again, in the last couple of days, and I really don't see any of the emotional states you're calling him on. There's a bit in the second book, which as he says in the interview at the end of it, he puts in there on purpose, to "shake up people's ideas of enlightenment" .... which is exactly what Nisargadatta, Adyashanti and others have done ... including the entire traditions of Zen and Kashmir Shaivism.
If someone really knows and experiences reality, would any of us want them to mince words?
"I think not."
And, if for any reason anyone would want them to mince words .... I might suggest asking "why".
quote:
The short of it is, my perception of enlightenment is a continuum as described in the AYP lessons as follows:
<--------------|---------------------------|------------------------|------------>
Duality------Continual Perception------Increasing------------------24/7 unity
Full-time----of nothingness-----------unity perspective------------sensory perception
24-7-------24-7 abiding witness------increasing bliss/love---------24/7 a love/bliss
----------------------------------not yet a 24/7 experience------perceptual experience
- Traveling this way ---> leads to more perception of unity and the mind spends less time in dual thinking. There are still many instances of duality in-between shortening in duration yielding longer moments of unity experience.
Actually, I would say that enlightenment is independence from that spectrum, entirely. It's actually an entirely different dimension.
That's what I mean when I say enlightenment has nothing to do with experience. If someone has an extensive experience of unity, but *they* have it; if the illusion of separate self isn't fully dissolved, that's not enlightenment; just a really awesome experience ... even if it lasts for months.
If someone, on the other hand, has a somewhat acerbic personality at times (i.e. Nisargadatta, or Jed McKenna), yet never has a moment's confusion that emotional or mental states affect our true nature, any more than an itch does, for anyone ..... that's enlightened.
Enlightenment is consciously living from truth.
It's not one end of a spectrum; it's a different dimension.
Duality - all duality - happens within non-duality.
Non-duality is what we are.
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By his own description, Jed has only had the occasional experiences of unity, it is not an abiding condition of his.
Correct; per my statements above, Jed is beyond concern with conditions of that type. His permanent condition, as he says, is one of "abiding non-dual awareness".
He discusses this at the beginning of the first book. He's had awesome mystical experiences, and has no particular plans or interest in repeating them. Enlightenment has no connection with specific experiences; enlightenment only has to do with realizing truth and no longer living from any semblance of delusion (I would say).
I agree with Yogani that enlightenment is a process, at the manifested levels (body-mind) at least, which never stops. However, there's also a point at which our true nature is known utterly, and from whence our true nature is lived from; it can't be un-known .... and I call that condition enlightenment, as well.
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A lot of people and especially self-proclaimed enlightened teachers seem to fall into the trap of mistaking "their own truth" for "the truth" and then telling everyone else they are wrong if it doesn't match up with their own perception of the truth.
True ... which would indicate they're not enlightened, as it seems you're saying, too.
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Truth is a very relative term, from the absolute that nothing is actually true, to something that is a lie for one person is true for another depending on the perspective. My lie yesterday is my truth today and visa-versa.
In duality, this is true.
However, non-dual reality is unassailably true, real and actual -- as many enlightened teachers have stated, over the ages.
There is a single reality, and we each can know it utterly.
That's what enlightenment is ... the end of duality, confusion and delusion with respect to awareness of our own true nature as awareness itself, the awareness which precedes and contains all else.
Knowing this, we're free to live as regular people .... enlightened, liberated regular people.
Enlightenment isn't something we "get", it's what's here when un-enlightenment is no longer projected.
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It seems to be the case for Jed, as he communicates often in his book that he is merely content and that unity experience or "mysticism", as he seems to refer to it, is not a condition of enlightenment, he spends a fair amount of time in dual emotional states as he describes repeatedly.
Unity experience isn't a condition for enlightenment; it just almost always precedes it, and thus seems directly connected.
There aren't any dual emotional states for Jed (as he makes clear in his books, at least to me). Sure, the Jed McKenna personality has its likes and dislikes and personality traits, but that's not where the enlightenment is; the enlightenment is the awareness living that life; living all lives, it's just a matter of whether we're conscious of ourselves as That (awareness) or not.
In going through the first book, I find Jed to be wise, caring, kind, funny, etc. ... where are these negative, dual emotional states you felt it was important to comment on?
It seems almost like that part from I Am That where Nisargadatta says something like "Well, sure, I get irritated when my lunch is served late; that's how cultural conditioning manifests in this body-mind."
Imagine if someone said "You might want to watch out for this Nisargadatta guy; he complains about his lunch being served late ... would an enlightened guy do that?"
... and someone didn't read I Am That, because of that; they'd literally miss out on some of the greatest spiritual wisdom ever published between two covers.
If someone doesn't read Jed McKenna due to the discussion in this thread, or because of something they read on the Internet ... in my opinion, they're doing the same.
I'll go as far as to say this:
What Yogani has done for practices, Jed McKenna has done for spiritual information, and for helping us understand what enlightenment is, and what it's not.
Just as Yogani says: do this, and you'll get t/here ... Jed McKenna says: "Understand, it's about this {finding out what's true, which includes finding out the you that you think you are is fictional}, and it's not about this {everything else}.
Armed only within Yogani's books, and Jed McKenna's, if someone were to follow the teachings of both in tandem ... they'd end up enlightened a whole lot faster than almost anyone has, ever.
Why?
How?
Because Yogani cuts through all the extraneous stuff as far as what to do in order to be enlightened, and Jed McKenna cuts through all the extraneous stuff as far as how to look at things, in order to be enlightened.
If there's anything to be seen or articulated more clearly -- that can be managed just fine, once you're enlightened.
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Nothing wrong with this of course, but he is quite clearly describing his own condition, from my perspective, nearer the first vertical mark from the left above.
With genuine respect as always, I feel you are misunderstanding Jed's description. He is, and lives from, abiding non-dual awareness (as he states repeatedly). He also clarifies repeatedly that anything else in experience occurs within that abiding non-dual awareness.
Check out This Video, and then let me know if you feel Jed still seems confused (about anything).
"Nothing transcends my transcendence."
~Jed McKenna
quote:
The reason I wrote the my first post above was because I objected to Jed's claim of being enlightened as potentially misleading for his readers and students and his presentation of his definition of enlightenment as the absolute truth on the subject, potentially derailing for people.
I respectfully disagree. Jed's claim of being enlightened, based on the words in his book, is pretty much 100% assured to be accurate (again: no one can fake enlightenment that well, in my experience).
Also, and possibly just as important, or more important:
For any one or two statements that could be "potentially derailing" in your opinion, there are literally hundreds of statements that can serve as laser beams to cut falsehood away, and leave truth remaining, for anyone who will allow it to be so.
How could someone be derailed by Jed's statements, anyway?
His expression of enlightenment is literally as clear as it gets .... that's why I recommend him so highly.
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Upon reflection though, each teacher (each human being for that matter) will have something of value to communicate, so in one way or another the student can benefit if they are true in their intentions, it is a lesson either way.
True. In Jed's case, though -- his expression of enlightenment is clear, unvarnished, direct and communicated in a way that people from our time and culture can understand what's being said.
That's pretty much priceless, in my estimation.
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From my perspective, there is a distinction to me of a teacher saying to someone, "yes that is how jnani sees the world", "yes, I am jnani," to expedite understanding in the student or "the perspective of unity here is such and such..." again to help in understanding v. "yes I am enlightened, I am the real deal etc." and go on about it unasked without context to questioning repeatedly etc. Again my perspective. There is a sense of contraction felt in the latter and a sense of expansion in the former, it all depends on the context.
Actually, I'd say it all depends on the reader/hearer.
It sounds like you take exception to the one or two times in the book where Jed might have done something like that.
What about the hundreds of times where he's articulating crystal clear truth, regardless of what anyone might say about him, personally?
That's the stuff I look for ... and candidly, I didn't even really notice, when I first read the segment you're referring to.
It's a dialog with a girl of about eighteen, named Jolene, and she's literally shaking, and saying something like "You're it, aren't you? You're the real deal ....."
And Jed is kind of stunned; not haughty at all .... and he replies, "Yes, I'm the real deal ..." .... simply, authentically, truthfully ..... and once.
Now, if the entire book was filled with anecdotes like that, it might give me pause ... but a lot of us here have spent time at various satsangs, and what I read in Jed's book was a very, very accurate portrayal of the spectrum of students/dialog partners that a teacher gets, including the one described above.
Adyashanti might simply say "Yes" to that question, but I'm sure he'd still answer it the same way (unless he felt moved not to).
Enlightenment neither promotes itself, nor shies from promotion; enlightenment does what is in harmony with the moment .... every moment. It can't not. The delusion which causes disharmony is gone, in enlightenment.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Enlightenment has nothing to do with experience, ultimately.
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
I think it can also be said that it has everything to do with experience. Non-duality or unity is the frontier where language breaks down and no longer serves well for description.
Yes, good point; Unity from one side, non-duality from the other (of the frontier, as you call it).
What I meant by that statement, I described above.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with any specific experience.
On the other hand, enlightenment can only be known directly .... which may or may not qualify as "experience" .... but no word, teacher, teaching, technique or anything else, can enlighten any of us; only releasing the false completely does that.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Enlightenment is usually a term used to indicate the actual shift from sense-of-self being comprised of the ever-shifting conditioned amalgam of thoughts, feelings, memories and ideas, to knowing self (aka non-self ) as "abiding non-dual awareness" (Jed's term; one I like a lot). This shift is inherently permanent.
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Until all the objects/ experiences of duality have been joined/ balanced in a perspective of unity, in other words seeing both sides of everything (can this ever happen?
I don't know. I wouldn't say that unity is "seeing both sides of everything", though. I would say it's where subject, object and perception/means of knowing become one thing.
Must that precede enlightenment? I would guess it usually does, but I don't know that it's essential; it's a means, and I don't know that any means is essential.
The only thing that's truly essential to enlightenment is non-creation of the concept that is the false-self ... including eradicating this tendency enough from the body-mind (which is where practices come in, and where they are essential), that such an ongoing awareness (abiding non-dual awareness) is possible, via a given body-mind.
quote:
It is an infinite universe so who knows) there will be many instances of time spent in a dual perspective.
In enlightenment? Not so, or at least, not necessarily so. As in: possible and probable are not the sane thing. Yes, there may be moments of having some sense of attention experiencing some of the vacillations in the body-mind ... irritation at lunch being served late, etc. .... but there is no confusion concerning who is experiencing it. And yes, identification with untrue thoughts is theoretically possible, but becomes less and less probable as conscious enlightenment deepens in manifested experiencing.
That's (the relationship between non-duality and duality, which is: the former includes the latter) why we have the symbolism of Hanuman, who is both monkey and man/god, or Jesus Christ, who is both man and god; Consciousness has both form and formlessness.
In enlightenment, we know that the experiencing subject is always, ever, unbound formless awareness.
If the body-mind's conditioning kicks up some irritation, so what?
Body-minds do stuff like that.
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As you mentioned it can be a couple minutes or it can be a couple decades, but an emotional reaction of anger, hate, irritation etc. are all pointers to a perspective from a state of duality, in other words temporarily (however long) of seeing an object or experience as negative for the perceiver in some way or another.
Per above, I (as always, respectfully) disagree.
It can seem that way to an observer (as I Am That covers in some detail, as well as dialogs with Adyashanti), but it is not the case within.
It's very likely that a lot less time will be spent with the body-mind expressing irritation or whatever, but as Adyashanti has said so poignantly: "Enlightenment isn't freedom from being fully human; enlightenment is freedom to be fully human."
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You mention repeatedly that I say Jed is not enlightened, just to be clear I said that proclaiming that "I am enlightened" is a sure sign of identification of "I".
I might say it is more a sure sign of talking like a normal person.
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It is not an absolute sign, just a sure sign, the AYP lessons point this out on numerous occasions including the current one just written. His condition as he describes it at least falls under the AYP Enlightenment Milestones, just more near the beginning.
Enthusiastically (and 100% respectfully) disagreed.
Jed's abiding non-dual awareness is actually beyond the spectrum described in the AYP Enlightenment series. In fact, I'm pretty sure Yogani has said, fairly recently, that those milestones are just that: milestones; markers for those of us who are fairly early on the path. When those three milestones were first composed, I don't know that any of us here were beyond them, except maybe Yogani.
If you seriously read everything Jed says, and not just the couple of statements you seem to take such exception to, I can't see how you could maintain that conclusion (that Jed is near the beginning of that spectrum).
Maybe this will clear it up:
Living from non-dual awareness is liberation; there's utter independence from attachment to the states of the body-mind, and therefore, all states are okay. Jed (and any genuinely enlightened person) is free to behave in whatever ways manifest, and they are not unduly concerned with specific statements or behavior, because there's no longer the fictitious self-idea to be concerned.
And so, if the only way irritation could be expressed is if the separate "I" re-manifested, I would agree with you, but this is not the case.
It's more that the activities of the body-mind are finally left alone to run naturally, just as unenlightened humans leave things like digestion and respiration alone, for the most part.
quote:
And so, I would say that anyone who can help people understand the difference between the dream-state and reality, and who is doing so in ways that can help people make that transition, is performing a true service of near-infinite value, whether or not they utter the words "I'm enlightened".
quote:
Yes I see it this way too.
Awesome!!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 17 2010 8:18:56 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2010 : 09:26:21 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
Just in case it comes across differently in the posts above, just to clarify, none of my comments are meant to be taken to be about Jed himself, I’m just using him to express certain a perspective on the evolution of human consciousness in general.
If you want to endorse him by all means go for it, as I hope I made it clear earlier on, everyone has a unique perspective which can add to the totality of awareness and Jed certainly has some great pointers.
I think the difference in our perspectives can be boiled down to that (and please correct me if I am misrepresenting your words) that you see a definable point where “enlightenment” occurs and a person can hence forth be called “enlightened” and I see it rather as a continuum of human consciousness evolution. With less and less identification occurring to the point of unperceivable amounts as a person moves more deeply into unity (non-dual) perspective 99.9% of the time. The person will continue to evolve all the while it is a collection of thoughts inside abiding awareness that knows itself as That.
So from my perspective, a person can realize their true nature, that they are abiding awareness, be in a state of non-duality and see it as such 90% of the time and have complete knowing that they are not the “I” but still have concepts (and thoughts) where the mind is still subtlety identified. Emotional reactions, especially strong ones are good pointers to identified areas.
All humans have moments of enlightenment, but for most they are brief breaks in the clouds between very extended periods of identification. For those with a predominantly non-dual perspective, it can be the opposite, extended periods of “enlightenment”, with brief periods of identification all the while knowing they are That. The brief periods of identification will continue to occur less and less over time unless there is an expressed desire to hold on to certain concepts and beliefs.
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The value of enlightenment teachings, in my opinion, has nothing to do with how nice, blissful or loving someone seems, and everything to do with how well they articulate truth.
I see it this way too.
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If someone, on the other hand, has a somewhat acerbic personality at times (i.e. Nisargadatta, or Jed McKenna), yet never has a moment's confusion that emotional or mental states affect our true nature, any more than an itch does, for anyone ..... that's enlightened
Sounds good, if you want to define enlightenment this way go for it.
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Duality - all duality - happens within non-duality.
Non-duality is what we are.
I see it this way too.
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If the body-mind's conditioning kicks up some irritation, so what?
Body-minds do stuff like that.
Agreed, no problem, but still points to some subtle identification with a concept, in other words seeing just one side of an object's nature rather than both sides. Agreed, there is no problem with this or in expressing this either.
Personally, I don’t go around thinking about what enlightenment is or isn’t very often, I stopped chasing that word and find it to be a limited label that is often pre-maturely claimed by many and often misleading in general to people. I don’t see enlightenment as you are or you aren’t, if that is the definition you are working with, I can see how you do and it is all good, we can have different perspectives here.
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2010 : 09:59:37 AM
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Hey K-man,
I know I'm a bird-brain  , but how exactly is abiding non-duality different from abiding Unity? And how exactly is it beyond the states described in AYP?
My understanding of Unity was that is was the merging of subject and object into the realization/experience of all as Self/Awareness; and in this state of knowing/experiencing self as Pure Awareness there is no attachment to body-mind/objects of perception/etc...how is non-dual awareness different?
I'm not necessarily schooled on the details, so I know I might be missing something...
Peace |
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Jed McKenna
