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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
 Posted - May 24 2010 : 08:40:15 AM
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I am reading 'I am That' (Nisargadatta) from last 2-3 days.
http://www.fixdisease.com/i_am_that.pdf
I don't know if all of you have read it but its the best book I ever came across.
I don't think there is any question left (that a seeker could have) that has not been asked to him in this book.
Nisargadatta is one of those masters who can cut your head away in one line (if you allow). He is lethal.
He speaks in the same way and authority as Lord Shiva, Lord Krishna, Buddha, Bodhidarma and Osho speak.
Well ofcourse once you are That, all are same as its really That which speaks.
Here are a few words by That from the book:
Q: All you say is clear to me. But when some physical or mental trouble comes, my mind goes dull and grey, or seeks frantically for relief.
M: What does it matter? It is the mind that is dull or restless, not you. You cannot change the course of events, but you can change your attitude and what really matters is the attitude and not the bare event. The world is the abode of desires and fears. You cannot find peace in it. For peace you must go beyond the world. The root- cause of the world is self-love. Because of it we seek pleasure and avoid pain. Brahma the Creator is the sum total of all desires. The world is the instrument for their fulfilment. Souls take whatever pleasure they desire and pay for them in tears. Time squares all accounts. The law of balance reigns supreme.
(The creation of the Universe itself is based on desire. Desire is the foundation of the Universe. So naturally everything that takes birth here is after some desires that he/she wants to be fulfilled. No desire = No birth possible.)
Q: How is it that here my mind is engaged in high topics and finds dwelling on them easy and pleasant. When I return home I find myself forgetting all l have learnt here, worrying and fretting, unable to remember my real nature even for a moment. What may be the cause?
M: It is your childishness you are returning to. You are not fully grown up; there are levels left undeveloped because unattended. Just give full attention to what in you is crude and primitive, unreasonable and unkind, altogether childish, and you will ripen. It is the maturity of heart and mind that is essential. It comes effortlessly when the main obstacle is removed -- inattention, unawareness. In awareness you grow.
And this is the most important. ALL OF YOU MUST READ!!
Q: You spoke of the person (vyakti), the witness (vyakta) and the Supreme (avyakta). Which comes first?
M: In the Supreme the witness appears. The witness creates the person and thinks itself as separate from it. The witness sees that the person appears in consciousness which again appears in the witness. This realisation of the basic unity is the working of the Supreme. It is the power behind the witness, the source from which all flows. It cannot be contacted, unless there is unity and love and mutual help between the person and the witness, unless the doing is in harmony with the being and the knowing. The Supreme is both the source and the fruit of such harmony. As I talk to you, I am in the state of detached but affectionate awareness (turiya). When this awareness turns upon itself, you may call it the Supreme State, (turiyatita). But the fundamental reality is beyond awareness, beyond the three states of becoming, being and not-being. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 3:22:19 PM
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Thank you, manigma!
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
And this is the most important. ALL OF YOU MUST READ!!
Q: You spoke of the person (vyakti), the witness (vyakta) and the Supreme (avyakta). Which comes first?
M: In the Supreme the witness appears. The witness creates the person and thinks itself as separate from it. The witness sees that the person appears in consciousness which again appears in the witness. This realisation of the basic unity is the working of the Supreme. It is the power behind the witness, the source from which all flows. It cannot be contacted, unless there is unity and love and mutual help between the person and the witness, unless the doing is in harmony with the being and the knowing. The Supreme is both the source and the fruit of such harmony. As I talk to you, I am in the state of detached but affectionate awareness (turiya). When this awareness turns upon itself, you may call it the Supreme State, (turiyatita). But the fundamental reality is beyond awareness, beyond the three states of becoming, being and not-being.
I am That is Da Book! 
It's always the same for me, when reading Nisargadatta's quotes, like the one above... there's recognition, recognition, nodding, and then *zzut* there's this almost painful sort of "knowing" that hits me so strongly, on all levels, and it leaves me with a burning bhakti that is above and beyond everything... It's so powerful. It's hitting like a spear in the stomach when taking in the line:
quote:
But the fundamental reality is beyond awareness, beyond the three states of becoming, being and not-being.
Home. We're going all the way home.
A great site that always gives me the quote I need for the moment is this:
http://www.mpeters.de/nisargadatta/index.cfm
Press F5 button and update and you'll get a new quote. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2010 : 5:10:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Thank you, manigma!
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
And this is the most important. ALL OF YOU MUST READ!!
Q: You spoke of the person (vyakti), the witness (vyakta) and the Supreme (avyakta). Which comes first?
M: In the Supreme the witness appears. The witness creates the person and thinks itself as separate from it. The witness sees that the person appears in consciousness which again appears in the witness. This realisation of the basic unity is the working of the Supreme. It is the power behind the witness, the source from which all flows. It cannot be contacted, unless there is unity and love and mutual help between the person and the witness, unless the doing is in harmony with the being and the knowing. The Supreme is both the source and the fruit of such harmony. As I talk to you, I am in the state of detached but affectionate awareness (turiya). When this awareness turns upon itself, you may call it the Supreme State, (turiyatita). But the fundamental reality is beyond awareness, beyond the three states of becoming, being and not-being.
I am That is Da Book!
It's always the same for me, when reading Nisargadatta's quotes, like the one above... there's recognition, recognition, nodding, and then *zzut* there's this almost painful sort of "knowing" that hits me so strongly, on all levels, and it leaves me with a burning bhakti that is above and beyond everything... It's so powerful. It's hitting like a spear in the stomach when taking in the line:
quote:
But the fundamental reality is beyond awareness, beyond the three states of becoming, being and not-being.
Home. We're going all the way home.
A great site that always gives me the quote I need for the moment is this:
http://www.mpeters.de/nisargadatta/index.cfm
Press F5 button and update and you'll get a new quote.
Great comments, emc - I agree wholeheartedly .... and great link!
I got:
"To see reality is as simple as to see one's face in a mirror. Only the mirror must be clear and true. A quiet mind, undistorted by desires and fears, free from ideas and opinions, clear on all the levels, is needed to reflect the reality. Be clear and quiet, alert and detached, all else will happen by itself."
PS To All .. I have a new-fangled keyboard w/no F5 key, but I just hit "Refresh" in my browser toolbar, and got new quotes that way, too.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on May 24 2010 5:13:40 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 02:35:46 AM
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Flow... flow... is what the ocean tells
Flow... flow... is what the river does
But sometimes the river slows down to post few topics in the forum. 
I have never met a river that does not fall into the ocean. - Osho
Yes, we are all going home. Its just a matter of trust and force with which we keep flowing.
I have been given
one moment from heaven
as I am walking
surrounded by night,
Stars high above me
make a wish under moonlight.
I move in silence
with each step taken,
snow falling round me
like angels in flight.
Far in the distance
is my wish under moonlight.
On my way home
I remember
only good days.
On my way home
I remember
all the best days.
I'm on my way home
I can remember
every new day.
On my way Home
I remember
all the good days.
- Enya |
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nisargajay
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2010 : 08:33:26 AM
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i am that was the first book i read of the old sage
i read it three times takes some understanding at first but one you grasp the concepts its pretty powerfull there doesnt seem to be any part of your life he doesnt pull apart he does for me cut through the illusion.
robert powell also translated recordings and his books are good to a few below.
the ultimate medicine
the nectar of immortality
experience of nothingness
jean dunn a long time devotee of maharaj also recorded talks she produced 3 books below.
seeds of consciouness
consciouness and the absolute
prior to consciouness
i am that was maharajs basic teachings the books above were recorded towards the end of his life if you understand i am that these books will make sense the best ive read and am reading now is prior to consciouness by jean dunn the recordings in this book are profound just my opinion.
http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/nisa..._maharaj.htm
you can download ebooks here free enjoy.
nisargajay |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2010 : 09:29:54 AM
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Thanks.
You must persist in meditation until you come to a stage when you feel there is no meditation. When the purpose of meditation is gained it will drop off naturally.
- Prior to Consciousness |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2010 : 04:58:05 AM
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M. Go back to the source: before this concept of beingness, "I Am," arose, what was your state?
Q. I don't know.
M: That which you don't know, that is the right state. Everything that comes after this consciousness is attained, is useless - consciousness is useless.
- Prior to consciousness
The working of the Universe is perfect without any flaw. The Five elements maintain it naturally all the time.
Only the person "I Am" interferes with the natural rhythm because it loses its natural witness state.
But going back to the witness... we find that there is still one step further to go back. You are that which existed even prior to the witness, prior to consciousness.
The witness was brought into existense, squeezed into this body made of Five elements (at the time of birth). And it will be released at the time of death. But from where did the witness emerge? Where is the origin of this witness? |
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nisargajay
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2010 : 09:56:27 AM
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hi manigma
it would be better to say that consciouness is the essence of the five elements that make up the body this chemical consciouness as maharaj calls it gives rise to the witness understand the ignorant child principle before you became this or that.
i am that is best to read first maharaj answered questions to seekers on all levels even more so to newcomers which he didnt in later books what i found is that if you read a chapter a day the teachings sink in and you keep getting aha moments were it suddenly dawns on you what he ment.
he does say you must be earnest and have a desire to understand the consciouness whiich im trying to do at the moment because only then can you transcend it
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2010 : 03:37:51 AM
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The elements are the mirror on which the consciousness is reflected.
I am both and beyond. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 10:14:37 AM
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I am still reading this book. I read about 10 pages a week and have reached page 134 today.
Q: All this is very interesting, no doubt, but my goal is more simple. I want more pleasure and less pain in life. What am I to do?
M: As long as there is consciousness, there must be pleasure and pain. It is in the nature of the 'I am', of consciousness, to identify itself with the opposites.
Q: Then of what use is all this to me? It does not satisfy.
M: Who are you, who is unsatisfied?
Q: I am, the pain-pleasure man.
M: Pain and pleasure are both ananda (bliss). Here I am sitting in front of you and telling you -- from my own immediate and unchanging experience -- pain and pleasure are the crests and valleys of the waves in the ocean of bliss. Deep down there is utter fullness.
Pain and pleasure are both ananda (bliss).
This statement is hitting me again and again.
Its what Osho also said about the meaning of Tathata. Someone who accepts everything.
The witness finds himself separate from that which he experiences. If a thorn pricks his foot, the witnessing man says, "The thorn has not pricked me, it has pricked my body -- I am only the knower of it. The piercing has occurred at one place, while the awareness of it is present somewhere else."
So in the mind of a witness there exists a duality, a separation between the experiencing of an event and the actual occurrence of it. Therefore, he cannot rise up to the state of advaita, nonduality. And this is why the seeker who stops at the level of being a witness, a watcher, remains confined to a kind of dualism. He ultimately divides the existence into conscious and unconscious, and a distance will be created between the knower and the known.
Tathata is even more remarkable -- the ultimate. Tathata means, there is no duality. There is neither a knower nor is there anything to be known. Or, in other words, the knower is the known. Now it is not that the thorn is hurting me and I am aware of it; or that the thorn and I are separate from each other. It is not even that it would have been better if the thorn had not pierced me, or that it would be good if the thorn came out -- no, there is nothing of this sort. Now, everything is accepted: the presence of the thorn, the pricking of it, the awareness of being pricked by it, the experience of pain -- everything. And they are different parts of the same thing. Therefore, I am the thorn. I am the very occurrence of pricking. I am the awareness of this occurrence. I myself am the very realization of this all -- I am all of this.
That's why there is no going beyond this 'I', my very being. I cannot think, "It would have been better if the thorn had not pricked me" -- how can I? For I am the very thorn, the pricking of it, and the knowing of being pricked as well. Nor can I think, "It would be good if the thorn didn't prick me," because that would be tantamount to tearing myself apart from my very own being.
Tathata is the ultimate state there is. In that state, whatsoever is, is. It's a state of the ultimate acceptance of that-which-is. It contains no distinctions. But one cannot reach tathata without having been first a witness. However, one can stop at the level of witnessing, if he so desires, and choose not to arrive at tathata.
How is this possible? Do we have a Tathata in this forum who can shed some more light? |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 10:49:54 AM
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Pleasure and pain are mind evaluations of a situation.
Now the pain can be the pain of separation, pain of being let down, pain of suffering. The pleasure can be the pleasure of being with someone/somewhere you enjoy, eating something you love, reading, listening to something that makes you happy. None of this can happen if the mind does not evaluate it as pleasure and/or pain.
A very simple example, you are in love with someone, you are the happiest person when you are with him/her. Your mind defines that as ultimate joy, happiness. Then things change and s/he no longer makes you feel like s/he did before, s/he does not fit your image of him/her any more, so now any time you see him/her you feel pain. The person is the same. But the mind's evaluation of this person has changed.
When the mind is absent, you are in constant joy. It does not matter if you are in love or have fallen out of love, you can only experience joy where you are right now.
The other kind of pain could be physical pain in the body. This pain is something that is being experienced by the body, the "that" part of us (awareness) is not touched by it... it is present in ever joy, ever bliss, ever happiness, unless the mind is present. An example of this, say you have a bad headache and are suffering. Then someone you really enjoy talking to calls or drops by. You get engrossed in a conversation. For those few min, you forget the pain. Well, as long as the mind was preoccupied, it did not focus on the pain, the pain was still there, but there was no awareness of the pain... in fact you were happy those few min... how can that be possible? So as long as the mind is there, there is pain and pleasure. When the mind (and by mind I mean the judging/evaluating mind, not the mind that helps remember math formula and the grocery list) becomes a part of the scenery of life and awareness becomes predominant, then happiness and joy is all that can be experienced, because the nature of awareness is pure unadulterated happiness... that which is experienced by a baby.
It cannot be grasped by the mind. Trying to understand the mind with the mind does not work . So don't worry about it. Continue with your practices, and you will slowly have glimpses of this pure joy... and in time it will become you. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 12:18:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
How is this possible? Do we have a Tathata in this forum who can shed some more light?
"Everything is accepted."
~Osho
That's it.
Non-acceptance is evaluation, which can only arise from the mistaken thought of being "the evaluator".
When the dream of the evaluator is gone, non-acceptance simply no longer arises or computes; the idea of something being "wrong" is literally incomprehensible.
The guaranteed-to-be-bad dream of "should" and "is" being two different things is over.
The difficulty in understanding this comes from trying to understand it; it can only be experienced.
Come see for yourself.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 12:46:32 PM
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Dear Shanti and Kirtanman
Thank you for your replies.
The 'no mind no evaluation state' is experienced every morning during meditation. Pain and pleasure are both absent in that state.
"As long as there is consciousness, there must be pleasure and pain. It is in the nature of the 'I am', of consciousness, to identify itself with the opposites." - Nisargdatta
I go beyond 'I am' (limited self consciousness state) every morning.
The thing that is hitting me is when Nisargadatta says "Pain and pleasure are both ananda (bliss)."
And Osho says "Now it is not that the thorn is hurting me and I am aware of it; or that the thorn and I are separate from each other. It is not even that it would have been better if the thorn had not pierced me, or that it would be good if the thorn came out -- no, there is nothing of this sort. Now, everything is accepted: the presence of the thorn, the pricking of it, the awareness of being pricked by it, the experience of pain -- everything."
This sounds so awkward yet so profound. How can one accept the experience of pain as Bliss?
I know in 'no mind no evaluation state' I don't feel any pains/pleasures at all. In fact, there is no experiencer to feel them. But a Tahtata is the one who experiences/feels the pain and yet accepts it as being part of Bliss.
How???
I know only experience will answer this and of course I will continue with my practices. This statement has worked like a power fuel and I won't quit until I reach the Tathata state myself.
PS: It reminds me of this scene from the movie "The Dark Knight" where Batman is beating the hell out of The Joker and Joker is just laughing... almost enjoying it.
The Joker's character seems like that of Lord Krishna and Buddha to me...
Krishna was such nuisance and carefree... and you spit at Buddha and he says nothing.
Bluddy Tathatas. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 12:55:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
I know only experience will answer this and of course I will continue with my practices. This statement has worked like a power fuel and I won't quit until I reach the Tathata state myself.
Bhakti shows up in the strangest of ways doesn't it?
All the best Manigma. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 9:52:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
"As long as there is consciousness, there must be pleasure and pain. It is in the nature of the 'I am', of consciousness, to identify itself with the opposites." - Nisargdatta
I go beyond 'I am' (limited self consciousness state) every morning.
The thing that is hitting me is when Nisargadatta says "Pain and pleasure are both ananda (bliss)."
And Osho says "Now it is not that the thorn is hurting me and I am aware of it; or that the thorn and I are separate from each other. It is not even that it would have been better if the thorn had not pierced me, or that it would be good if the thorn came out -- no, there is nothing of this sort. Now, everything is accepted: the presence of the thorn, the pricking of it, the awareness of being pricked by it, the experience of pain -- everything."
This sounds so awkward yet so profound. How can one accept the experience of pain as Bliss?
Again: that's the issue with trying to understand reality (wholeness) with the swiss-army-knife of thinking-mind and word-definitions.
Bliss is usually understood to be something akin to ecstasy, and so, essentially opposite from pain.
In wholeness, bliss is not tied to specific moments, or the content thereof.
quote:
I know in 'no mind no evaluation state' I don't feel any pains/pleasures at all. In fact, there is no experiencer to feel them. But a Tahtata is the one who experiences/feels the pain and yet accepts it as being part of Bliss.
One of the reasons I tend to define bliss more as "blessed", or peace.
It's not that pain becomes ecstatic, or blissful in the usual sense of the term -- it's just that it's not evaluated as wrong, because the concept of "wrong" literally does not compute ... because the "computer" finally broke ("Thank All!! ).
I'll take the thorn-thing as an example; I've had equivalent experiences, quite recently.
Pain is just sensation; it's not liked or disliked; if it's felt, it's felt.
If I feel a thorn in my foot, I'll notice it; being me (at the level of body-mind/personality), I may even make a comment or two, such as "Ow! F{CENSORED}itch!!"  .... and not because I'm angry, or feel the thorn shouldn't be in my foot, but because that's how this body-mind sometimes reacts to unexpected pain.
Everything about moments like that is (literally) perfect, in the true meaning of the word (whole).
There's no evaluation; if I feel a thorn, and swear in reaction -- that's just the content of the moment; it's no better or worse than any other moment, not because, given a choice, I wouldn't rather be hugging a loved one than getting a thorn in my foot .... but because that whole strata of concept and evaluation has dissolved.
What happens, happens --- how could something be "wrong"? How could non-acceptance be a sane reaction, ever?
Now, if I notice I'm stepping into an entire field of thorns, does my acceptance mean I'll just keep walking, and experience more pain?
No, it does not.
Genuine pain/pleasure signals in the body exist for a reason, at the level of the body.
Stepping on thorns produces sensation that the body very probably doesn't feel like having more of; eating when hungry usually feels relatively good, and so on.
Simply Put:
Non-acceptance only makes sense in terms of non-wholeness.
In wholeness, acceptance is -- without even being acceptance -- acceptance and non-acceptance are just not around.
quote:
How???
Wake up all the way, and see there is no "how" ---- just "is".
Actually.
I never, ever came to understand what I'm writing in this post; I still don't -- what's there to understand?
In experience, it's easy to describe experience, relatively speaking.
I was reading in I Am That tonight --- and it used to seem so mysterious in parts, to me .... and now, it's like ...... "Yep".
NOTE: Trying to fit the words of one teacher (Nisargadatta) with the words of another (Osho) is always going to be problematic at best, especially when you're trying to understand with your own thinking-mind. Let teachings point you to experience and/or clarity, otherwise, forget them -- trying to understand them with mind, and/or make them harmonize is a recipe for frustration, and/or conceptually circling.
Nisargadatta just describes the experience of life I'm now living as well ... and in experience, it's simplicity, itself -- the most recent AYP (Main) Lesson addresses this, too (the simplicity).
http://www.aypsite.org/423.html
quote:
I know only experience will answer this and of course I will continue with my practices. This statement has worked like a power fuel and I won't quit until I reach the Tathata state myself.
Awesome.
Whatever it takes to live here in your own experience ..... it's worth it.
Because it's real.
That's the best news of all:
Reality is simple, beautiful, and perfectly fine, every moment now.
Even the moments containing thorns of one type or another.
quote:
Bluddy Tathatas.
Yep; that's how it seems/feels.
I would say "I remember it well" .... but I don't ..... and all that mind-stuff wasn't even that far back, for me.
But it was a dream .... and dreams fade.
Yogash-chitta-vrtti-nirodhah ----- Yoga (Union; Acceptance; Wholeness) is the non-arising of mental agitation. (Yoga Sutras I.2)
This seems like the one immovable mountain (the mental agitation) until the agitated one (the ego-idea) is truly seen through, and dissolves.
Then, it's all simplicity itself.
What happens, happens; that's all -- every moment now.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 02:27:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
All the best Manigma.
Thanks Shanti. I need as many 'All the bests' as possible. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 02:55:48 AM
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Dear Kirtanman
I know that Bliss is neither pain nor pleasure. Its beyond both.
I think Nisarga is saying that Pain and Pleasure are extensions of Bliss itself. They rise from and fall back to the Bliss state... which is our natural / unshakable silence state.
Om Shanti Shanti Shanthi....
The Om itself rises and falls back into Shanti.
I mentioned Osho's statement because I feel its supporting Nisargas statement too:
"For I am the very thorn, the pricking of it, and the knowing of being pricked as well. Nor can I think, "It would be good if the thorn didn't prick me," because that would be tantamount to tearing myself apart from my very own being."
This statement is just amazing!!! I go through this experience every morning... but to permanently be in this state seems too much.
Its like I understand what he is saying but still don't understand. Or maybe I don't want to |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2010 : 1:17:57 PM
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Hi Manigma,
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
Dear Kirtanman
I know that Bliss is neither pain nor pleasure. Its beyond both.
I think Nisarga is saying that Pain and Pleasure are extensions of Bliss itself. They rise from and fall back to the Bliss state... which is our natural / unshakable silence state.
Om Shanti Shanti Shanthi....
The Om itself rises and falls back into Shanti.
Yes; this is what I meant when I wrote:
"In wholeness, bliss is not tied to specific moments, or the content thereof."
quote:
I mentioned Osho's statement because I feel its supporting Nisargas statement too:
"For I am the very thorn, the pricking of it, and the knowing of being pricked as well. Nor can I think, "It would be good if the thorn didn't prick me," because that would be tantamount to tearing myself apart from my very own being."
This statement is just amazing!!! I go through this experience every morning... but to permanently be in this state seems too much.
Are you sure it's identical?
(Your experience every morning, and the tathata we're discussing?)
Not saying it's not; just asking -- and I'll explain why:
Osho's words do as good a job on certain levels, of explaining the reality of what we're discussing. However, especially considering that his words are only going to be evaluated by those who aren't in the permanent experience (tathata, or whatever else we might call it) --- candidly, Osho's words make it sound like a much bigger deal than it is, in experience (moments that would have been resisted, or regretted, or perceived as non-ideal, in the dream, that are experienced in simple wholeness now).
From one angle (the angle of duality), I guess it could be somewhat described as Osho says, and I guess from that same angle, his description could match my experience.
However, I think the key is this:
Prior to the experiencing of tathata, and/or liberation, or enlightenment, or whatever we might call the natural state from the dream-side, not only does all this sound like a very big deal, but it's presumed that the dynamics on non-duality will be noticed and referenced -- or, at least, most such(ness) descriptions, including Osho's, above, make it seem that way, to me.
Not so.
Non-duality is reality, really.
What this means in experience is: it's no more noticed than the air we breathe is noticed, almost all the time (the air; the non-duality is never noticed or considered, unless there's communication about it, as is the case here).
And so, if I step on a thorn, thoughts of whether or not the thorn is me or not me, or whether this pain "shouldn't" have happened, or "could have" been avoided, or thoughts of wishing it "hadn't happened" ..... simply don't arise.
Unless they do, in which case, while unlikely, they just "play on through", and aren't particularly noticed; rather, they're wholly accepted in-as totality --- though not as an action, but inherently; intrinsically; naturally --- there's no artificial consideration --- at all.
All the "aspects" of it ("I" "stepping on" "thorn", etc.) are not the characteristics of the experiencing, but rather, these terms are the way in which the experiencing is described by using words that have common definitions in order to convey the distinct aspects of this hypothetical experience ...... and which, therefore, inherently make it seem as if the experiencing has pieces ... including the "I" who experiences, when in actuality, in experiencing does not have pieces.
And so, if I step on a thorn, I'm not hopping around, going, "For I am the very thorn, the pricking of it, and the knowing of being pricked as well."
(And I can guarantee you: Osho wouldn't have been either ... especially since it's Osho we're talking about {one of the less-inclined-to-be-reserved spiritual teachers, ever}.)
Instead ... I'm probably going, "Ah, F{CENSORED}in' OW!!", or something similar, at fairly high-volume, as described a post or two back.
And, as said there - that doesn't imply anger, or resistance, or anything else; it's just the way this body-mind tends to react to unexpected pain, maybe 50% of the time, and is a good example here, to help demystify the misconceptions that tathata/wholeness doesn't involve such behavior or exclamations; on the contrary: non-dual means non-dual; non-duality includes duality - all of it.
Experiencing is wholeness; wholeness is experiencing.
If there's any way to "get it", from the once-removed and therefore non-applicable standpoint of concept -- maybe this will help:
Tathata doesn't mean we go from experiencing moments as dual ("Me, experiencing events") to experiencing moments as One ("All One, no matter what the content").
Tathata means experiencing is experienced actually, in-from-as our natural state as wholeness, which is prior to/beyond concepts.
And per all that, I'm going to now (rolling up virtual sleeves ... "Drum roll, please ......" ) ... shoot for the simplest explanation of Tathata, ever ("Please .... don't try this at home ...." ) .....
Living is happening.
"Ta-DAA!"
quote:
Its like I understand what he is saying but still don't understand. Or maybe I don't want to
Maybe ... though if you do want to understand, maybe what I wrote above will help.
Or maybe it won't.
Or maybe it'll confuse you more.
Who knows?
Living is Happening.
We'll find out.
Or we won't.
And it's all utterly perfect (whole) ............... because there's no evaluation of perfect/imperfect, dual/non-dual ...... at all.
And it's nice.
How nice?
It's only worth everything.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 24 2010 1:28:43 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2010 : 3:09:42 PM
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Dear Kirtanman
As you know, whenever we express something, we use the memory + knowledge + experience gained by our limited self to give a best possible reply.
The Ego (I Am) is a false bridge that separates us from others. When this bridge disappears:
For I am the very thorn, the pricking of it, and the knowing of being pricked as well.
is realized. Then there is no other, all is me.
To be established in this state permanently is what I assume is called the state of a Tathata.
In this state, even if you are pricked by a thousand thorns, believe me, you will not utter a single censored word.
Because there is no bridge to create a gap between you and the thorn. You and the thorn have become one.
And yes, its my temporary experience every morning. If it becomes permanent... I have no idea what will happen to me.
Om Mani Padme Hum.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2010 : 12:34:53 AM
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Hi Manigma,
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
Dear Kirtanman
As you know, whenever we express something, we use the memory + knowledge + experience gained by our limited self to give a best possible reply.
The Ego (I Am) is a false bridge that separates us from others. When this bridge disappears:
For I am the very thorn, the pricking of it, and the knowing of being pricked as well.
is realized. Then there is no other, all is me.
To be established in this state permanently is what I assume is called the state of a Tathata.
In this state, even if you are pricked by a thousand thorns, believe me, you will not utter a single censored word.
Not true; please see below for explanation.
quote:
Because there is no bridge to create a gap between you and the thorn. You and the thorn have become one.
The condition we're discussing, tathata, which, along with other terms for the same, indicates my (<- quote-unquote, of course) ongoing experiencing, is indeed free from conceptual gaps --- and all gaps are conceptual.
However, oneness is not the ultimate state; this is -- tathata - suchness (and please know/remember: I saw the term "tathata" for the first time in this thread; I'm presuming, based on the bit I've read, that "tathata" is equivalent to what I call actuality, or what Nisargadatta calls the Supreme, the Ultimate, or simply That).
Oneness is the unification of everything; prior to Oneness is what could be called Non-Duality - though just as Oneness is relative to that which is not Oneness, Non-Duality sounds relative to duality; it's actually not - it contains duality; "non-duality" is just as close as words can come to saying "where duality - where anything other than wholeness - never is".
"Where distinction never gazed" as the famous Christian mystic, Meister Eckhart said.
quote:
And yes, its my temporary experience every morning. If it becomes permanent... I have no idea what will happen to me.
Exactly.
You have no idea, because currently you can't (you aren't experiencing this; tathata) -- just as there was a time when I wasn't experiencing it, and just as there will be a time, possibly quite soon, when you will be experiencing it -- but whether soon, or not, you will be -- because it's what you are.
Tathata is simply one term for this that is, when all distortion no longer arises.
In the experiencing of this, you have no idea because you aren't (just as I have no idea because "I" am not; "I" is a designation, not a fixed actuality; I'm a river, not an ice cube ... and Tattvam Asi -- You Are That).
In this that is, ideas are seen as dreams (fine when enjoyed consciously; no longer confused with reality).
In the experiencing of this that is, you have no idea, and no idea-of-you is any longer confused with actuality .... and so, there's no sense of a "fixed you" for something to happen *to*.
Sacred writings speak very directly about this; we just can't understand what they really mean, until we're in it (tathata, non-duality, reality -- whatever we call this-that-is).
They speak of the dissolution of subject-object duality.
This is actual; subjects and objects are seen for what they are: relative, conceptual designators --- not actual divisions, or separate things -- there aren't any; all distinctions and divisions are distinctions and divisions of display-within-wholeness; rainbow reflections created by this one light we are now.
And so, yes, we experience the dissolution of subject-object duality, and thus experience oneness, in meditation -- then, subject-object-perception dissolve entirely, and in nirvikalpa samadhi --- "The original condition of no-mental-constructs" ... we get a taste of our inherent changelessness, independent of form.
Then, we begin to experience our inherent changelessness in the myriad changings of every-moment now, and know ourselves as THAT (aka this that is).
As Yogani said in a recent lesson ( http://www.aypsite.org/413.html ):
"Is enlightenment no-thing or all-things? The perceptions of these experiences are mere structures in the mind, signifying little.
The truth is that it is neither of these, and both of these, and there is no end to it. That is the point. Anyone who says "This is it," and stands pat on that, is missing the point, because there is no "IT," no end state. No divorce from life, no permanent engagement in life. It is a process in the here and now.
Those who say it is no-thing may find themselves a bit stuck and yet to become spiritually integrated.
Non-involvement in life is duality.
Those who say it is only all-things are yet to find they are the One who does nothing amidst all things.
There is no clear answer. Those who seek a clear answer will not find one.
Clarity comes when the paradox of simultaneous non-doing and doing becomes ordinary in daily experience, and there is no need to say it is this or that anymore.
It just is, and we are both in it and beyond it. This includes living through the apparent inequities in life without suffering."
(Emphasis mine. ~KM)
This is my experiencing, as well.
quote:
Om Mani Padme Hum.
Yes, it is.
The Jewel is in the Lotus -- the beautiful wholeness-reality that duality obscures is found in the wholeness -- ever right-here, ever right-now, ever utterly perfect.
And to clarify further, per what you wrote, Manigma:
I'm not saying there's any bridge, any separation ......... there's not, at all ... and just as importantly ... there's no referencing "no bridge; oneness!".
That was the point of my critique of Osho's statement:
He makes it sounds as if there's referencing, when there's not -- and there wasn't, in his experiencing, either -- I know enough of his teachings and writings (not super-thoroughly, but enough) ... to know that his "thorny oneness" statements were yet another decent attempt to describe this that can't be described.
However, actuality is wholeness -- and thus, infinitely more whole than words are capable of describing.
In emphasizing the Oneness as he did, Osho made it sound as if there's more separation in the experiencing of (say) stepping on a thorn than there actually is -- both in designating what-all is involved in the oneness (himself, the thorn, the pain, whatever), *and* the "realizing" of oneness .... which was/would have been realized before the thorn was ever stepped on .... and is long gone.
Moments happen; if there's (what can be called) the experience of stepping on a thorn, there is; if there's exclamation, there is; if there isn't, there isn't ..... and none of it has the most infinitesimal involvement with the illusion of duality-being-reality, because there isn't any duality; that dream dissolved.
There's no longer confusion about that, or about anything.
Confusion is a side-effect of artificial evaluation.
"All gone."
That's kind of the point of the discussion, yes?
Just to be clear: there's not a state beyond my own experience.
Not in the sense of "this is it", or "planting a flag" .... but in the sense that it's called ground-of-being, the natural state, and/or tathata for a reason:
There's nothing beyond actuality; actuality is wholeness.
When wholeness is our experience, we know it utterly.
The idea of beyond only applies when someone is identified primarily with relative forms, concepts and experiences.
That's not a problem, or something "less than" ... it's part of the process; we all go through it.
I'm here to tell you that there's a completion, in the sense that we can come to write/say the things that Yogani said in the lesson above, that Nisargadatta says in I Am That, that Osho says, that I'm saying; that many are saying, now.
And more importantly:
I'm saying yet again:
It's equally available for all of us; equally intrinsic to all of us.
This mysterious state of tathata ("or whatever") is simple reality, once all the false identifications, and the false-identifier (the ego) are no longer confused with reality.
I specifically included the reference to the "censored" statements in my last post or two, to make the point that wholeness includes everything -- even the automatic, conditioned reactions of the body-mind.
I also included the bit about language/words creating designation, to attempt to explain that I'm speaking of experience that's prior even to oneness; wholeness is undivided; anything that says "two, not one" is false.
Nothing I have written, at any time recently, is speaking from or of, "two".
However, words can only make it seem that way ... because words create duality .... only words create duality.
Hence the difficult in discussing the wholeness with cutting instruments (words; mental evaluation, etc.).
Non-duality includes everything, and wholeness is by definition non-dual (just as non-duality is by definition, wholeness).
The entire point of my commentary was this:
The wholeness, the completion, is SO complete, that there's no reference to the wholeness ... it just IS .... suchness .... which is the definition of Tathata, as I understand it (I'd never heard that term, prior to this thread).
I never said I was separate from a thorn I step on, or a sound which emanates from my my mouth, or pain, or anything else .......... separation is illusion; distinctions (i.e. words) make it seem as though separation is real; it's not ... reality is whole.
And so, with all respect as always, I do not believe you, when you write:
quote:
"In this state, even if you are pricked by a thousand thorns, believe me, you will not utter a single censored word.
.... because I do utter so-called "censored" words at times, and they're as much an aspect of the wholeness as all is, now; there's no non-knowing, here.
However, please consider that in context: I don't believe anything else, either.
I would say "believe me", that like Osho, or Nisargadatta, or me, or whoever -- that normal behaviors of normal life are as non-dual as anything else, and yes, the separation-dream of ego is gone .... so gone that nothing can seem to fragment the wholeness that's actually happening now.
However, I can't seem to believe in the word "believe" enough to ask you to constrict your mind around it, and so I'll say, as I have before:
Come see for yourself.
And, by the way, to maybe help clear up some confusion, per your last post, certain statements from those experiencing tathata ... i.e. Nisargadatta being upset when his lunch is served late (as he describes in I Am That), Adyashanti getting "mad" at his computer; me swearing, Jed McKenna "hating California" can be presumed, by those inclined to presume, to include ego, or a sense of separation.
It can appear this way, to those so inclined/conditioned, because these behaviors can appear to be identical to their egoic equivalents. For people who have only seen separation-believing egos do things like this (swear, complain, have preferences, express irritation), and who have been taught that awareness of oneness means some sort of dissociation for normal-life vacillations of form -- any such expressions (profanity, irritation, etc.) ... can seem as though they have ego as their basis, because that's the only reference point the observers have, to guide them.
The reality is: body-minds run almost completely on automatic, including all the thinking they think is conscious; it's not .... it's memory-reaction, as you accurately point out at the beginning of your post, Manigma.
However, in tathata, the internal changelessness is always present; uttering profanity (in my case), as an automatic, conditioned reaction to unexpected pain doesn't imply belief in duality, or sense of separation, in any way whatsoever (and apologies if I didn't explain it well before).
There's no internal disturbance ---- and there's nothing that's not internal.
When you write "In this state, even if you are pricked by a thousand thorns, believe me, you will not utter a single censored word."
... that sounds exactly to me, like:
"In this state, even if are immersed in a vat of itching powder, believe me, you will not feel an itch."
Even sacred writings have similar statements; they're all false, when taken literally.
Unconscious aspects of form, like body-minds, react and contain; it's inherent in the design.
The doctor taps your knee with a little hammer, your leg flexes; a thorn pierces my foot, I may automatically say "Ow!" in Kirtanmanese, as described in previous posts in this thread , or I may not ... there's not enough imagination or caring about predicting it, or anything else to be able to say whether I'll do that or not - - I'll find out when it happens, and what happens is always perfect.
The only difference between "enlightenment" and "unenlightenment" is that in enlightenment, the confusions of artificial separation are not generated any longer, and so, the reality that what happens is always perfect is experienced consciously, and experienced so inherently, that it's not considered or referenced ---- it's all this that is.
What is here now is a wholeness so complete that profanity uttered in surprise, and the most sacred mantra are not different.
People think smoking, or swearing, or sex, or wearing stripes and plaid together are unenlightened.
They're not.
Well, maybe that last one ....................
Body-minds do what they do; tathata is, as Nisargadatta says in somewhat different words (than the Buddhists who describe tathata), being ever-prior to the vacillations of form, and accepting the vacillations of form as the automatic effect-reflections they are.
This is my experiencing, as well; thorn-stepping-on or whatever it may be, doesn't concern or affect me in the slightest; it's a happening when it's happening, and "but a dream" the very next moment.
There's only actuality-now; any moment that's gone is utterly gone; any moment not-here-yet is utterly unborn now; just this ... only this .... utterly whole, perfect beautiful this now .......... whatever the content-display may contain now.
I could care less if this body-mind utters profanity, any more than Nisargadatta could care less if his smoked. Body-minds do what body-minds do. Un-enlightenment is identifying with body-mind reactions; enlightenment, tathata, or whatever you might want to call it, is being-awareness, prior to (and containing) form-reaction, and thus, experiencing it all consciously.
Jesus said it is better to build our house upon rock, than upon shifting sands.
This is what he was talking about:
Rock is our true nature; changeless being.
Shifting sands are the ever-changing, never-grounded vacillations of form ... and they are a perfect part of our overall being-living, unless we identify with the vacillations alone, and the identifier who defines-reacts to them, while blind to thought-free awareness -- the changelessness that is eternally our essence.
Osho and Nisargadatta are both good examples of what I'm talking about; very much "regular-guy" gurus, as far as their general demeanor, yet able to speak from-as the living experiencing of the Supreme - this that is ever beyond form.
Me, too (<---- "Me" being linguistic convention, of course).
This isn't said to aggrandize them, or me ....... but I include myself in the list to yet again make the point:
The Ultimate condition; knowing self as Source is really available for us all.
I went from not-knowing Self as Source to knowing-being Source (Supreme, whatever-whatever) ... displaying through a regular-person body-mind, just like we all do ....... because none of us are never *not* the Supreme in actuality -- Supreme meaning That which nothing is Beyond; the Ultimate ... which also sounds very lofty, until we recall that this same Ground of Being is called "Ground of Being", and the Natural State ... it is all of these; it simply means the experiencing awareness which all arises from, displays within, and subsides back into; the "subject which can never be an object."
I hope this helps clarify
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2010 : 04:31:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And so, with all respect as always, I do not believe you, when you write:
quote:
"In this state, even if you are pricked by a thousand thorns, believe me, you will not utter a single censored word.
.... because I do utter so-called "censored" words at times, and they're as much an aspect of the wholeness as all is, now; there's no non-knowing, here.
I believe you.
But what I say is exactly what I experience.
In that state, even if you immerse me in a vat of itching powder, nail me on a cross or put me on a big hot frying pan... I will not utter a single Ow!
The state is like returning back to an eternal womb. The limited "I", the knowledge of it... is all lost / gone.
The spine straightens, the abdomen goes inwards, hands make gyana mudra, eyes go from shambhavi to trataka and then free to open or close as they wish.
All the links to the body and mind are broken / disconnected!!
Its pure awareness / beingness.
And a tremendous energy is generated in it. The same energy that takes us from the 'unconscious deep sleep' state to -> the 'sleeping dreaming' state to -> 'waking dreaming' state and then the 'deep sleep with awareness' state.
My going into this state and coming out from it everyday is bringing a change that I can not express.
Its like to remain permanently in that state I require tremendous energy. Like I need to suck in the energy from the whole Universe.
And at the moment its beyond my capacity to hold such tremendous energy, all the time.
Maybe its not what I feel. But that's what it feels like. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2010 : 6:26:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And so, with all respect as always, I do not believe you, when you write:
quote:
"In this state, even if you are pricked by a thousand thorns, believe me, you will not utter a single censored word.
.... because I do utter so-called "censored" words at times, and they're as much an aspect of the wholeness as all is, now; there's no non-knowing, here.
I believe you.
But what I say is exactly what I experience.
In that state, even if you immerse me in a vat of itching powder, nail me on a cross or put me on a big hot frying pan... I will not utter a single Ow!
The state is like returning back to an eternal womb. The limited "I", the knowledge of it... is all lost / gone.
The spine straightens, the abdomen goes inwards, hands make gyana mudra, eyes go from shambhavi to trataka and then free to open or close as they wish.
All the links to the body and mind are broken / disconnected!!
Its pure awareness / beingness.
And a tremendous energy is generated in it. The same energy that takes us from the 'unconscious deep sleep' state to -> the 'sleeping dreaming' state to -> 'waking dreaming' state and then the 'deep sleep with awareness' state.
My going into this state and coming out from it everyday is bringing a change that I can not express.
Its like to remain permanently in that state I require tremendous energy. Like I need to suck in the energy from the whole Universe.
And at the moment its beyond my capacity to hold such tremendous energy, all the time.
Maybe its not what I feel. But that's what it feels like.
Hi Manigma,
No worries and "all good".
Everyone's experience can be different, of course.
However, what I can tell you, is:
I experienced exactly what you're describing in meditation, as part of the process, some time back (two-three years, maybe).
Now, my experience is as I've described in this thread, with the "unspeakable energy/universally unitive" phase being one of the last major milestones on the way here."
Will it be the same for you?
No way to know, of course.
What I might suggest is at least potentially the case, though, is that you may be missing a couple of reference-points regarding the form-energy side of things (as opposed to the "pure awareness/energy" side of things (aka thing, aka no-thing ), only because you haven't experienced them, yet (presumably).
Basically, the term that's coming up now, that feels like it applies is:
Resolved.
As In:
The apparent fragmentation of form/manifestation, from-in-as the experiencing of wholeness, is experienced as inherently integrated-resolved.
And so, (your) presuming that the utter unity you experience in meditation is the same, or even similar, in terms of day-to-day form-experiencing, once inherent fulfillment is fully known (enlightenment, tathata, liberation, now, this - whatever ) .... may not be completely accurate.
However - trust me on this:
As much as my description may sound "less than" (than you may feel you're set to experience in "tathata", or whatever, based on what you've written) ... the general resolution of wholeness is "more than".
The most transcendent universal unity you can imagine or experience -- at least in my experience -- because I've experienced those things as well, doesn't hold a candle to *this-now*, once wholeness is (once the dream is dissolved).
This is my experience, and it's supported by the expressions of many teachers, as far back as Vasugupta (author of the Shiva Sutras) in 9th century Kashmir, as in:
Caitanyamatma
Supreme awareness is the reality of everything.
1.1
Sakticakrasamdhane Visvasamhara
When the wheel of energies unite, the differentiated Universe comes to an end.
1.6
Drisyam Sariram
The body is the perceptible OR The entire perceived universe is the Self.
1.14
Siddhah Svatantrabhavah
The state of absolute independence is already achieved.
3.13
Yatha tatra tathanyatra
This absolute independence is the same in the external world as it was in samadhi.
3.14
Katha Japah
Ordinary talk of life is (now, in liberation) the recitation of mantra.
3.27
Svasaktipracayo'sya visvam
The universe is the embodiment of (his/her) collective energies.
3.30
Tadharudhapramitestatksayajjiva samksayah
All desire vanishes in that fortunate person who is established in his own real nature. For him (or her), the state of being a limited individual has ended.3.41
Bhutakancuki tada vimukto bhutayah patisamah parah
For him (or her), the five elements are only coverings. At that very moment he (or she) is absolutely liberated, supreme, and just like Siva.
**
And so it is.
As you like, check out some of the videos of Nisargadatta, of Osho, of Adyashanti, and others.
All very normal.
Those of us in this that is may seem more "normal than normal" -- maybe almost too much so, in comparison to the many myths and misunderstood statements which circulate about what complete liberation is like.
There's nothing non-liberated or non-whole, about stepping on a thorn and briefly swearing in surprise; in fact ...... there's literally nothing better -- because comparison of one type of experience with another dissolved along with the faux-self-thoughts that compared.
If stepping on a thorn and swearing in surprise, is the content of a given moment -- it is the perfect content, actually -- because it is the content of that moment.
How simple. How obvious. How real.
As Nisargadatta said:
"I experience the same things you do, just in a different way."
Exactly.
There's no disturbance because there's no faux-self to be disturbed.
Life isn't just perfect --------- it's utterly freakin' glorious ... but only every moment ......... no matter what the content.
Yogani has talked about the phenomena of the "absent-minded mountain climber" ... the one who makes it to the "top" of the mountain (you know the one; it's called "right here right now") ... and yet can't remember or describe how they got there.
I can remember, and am doing my best to note some of it down ...... but barely; it's literally like it happened to someone else, and in a dream.
Not only am I not upset if I step on a thorn ........... I can't exactly remember what upset is like.
No kidding.
Now, if there's a momentary upset (not like stepping on a thorn; pain is not upset --- all upset has only one source: erroneous, conditioned evaluation) ..... it's known that there's a conditioned evaluation-reaction, like a spontaneous twinge or ache in the body; it's noticed, but so what?
It doesn't stick or stay, because there's nothing for it to attach to, or to attach to it.
Now, of course, stepping on a thorn and swearing in surprise is not as good as experiencing universal unitive energy and oneness.
It's better .... but only infinitely.
Why? How?
Because universal unity is an experience of consciousness and energy.
In liberation, in tathata, the same infinity/universality of consciousness-energy are here now (without the "big deal"-ness that those words may seem to convey -- those words simply indicate the reality that this reality that we each and all ever actually are now is free from artificial dividing lines, and, therefore, inherently without limits) ... yet with the additional anchoring and amplification that only embodiment in form can offer.
And, therefore, stepping on a thorn in reality is infinitely better than any experience, no matter its qualities, while dreaming faux-experience.
There's a reason people have been dedicating their lives to this for thousands of years, you know.
Consider: take all the people you know who have expressed they are experiencing liberation (or, if they speak more from a "don't want to say" standpoint -- those who have either indicated, or demonstrated by their teachings and behavior that they're at least "in the neighborhood") ..... Nisargadatta, Ramana, Adyashanti, Yogani, Tau Malachi, Ed Muzika, Jed McKenna; me; there's a bunch of others, but I'm blanking on names ... but many reading can add more to this list, I'm sure ...
.... how many of us have ever said, even once "Y'know .... I'm really not sure it was worth it ....."
Not one of us.
Not even a little.
Can it be that unspeakably perfect? Really?
Come see for yourself.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2010 : 11:20:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And so it is.
So you are the one who I am looking for?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=8151
The one who remains aware 24-7?
The one you're looking for is the one who's looking.
Having said that, my experience of permanent awareness is the same as Nisargadatta describes in I Am That:
Questioner: What do you do when asleep?
Maharaj: I am aware of being asleep.
Q: Is not sleep a state of unconsciousness?
M: Yes, I am aware of being unconscious.
Q: And when awake, or dreaming?
M: I am aware of being awake or dreaming.
Q: I do not catch you. What exactly do you mean? Let me make my terms clear: by being asleep I mean unconscious, by being awake I mean conscious, by dreaming I mean conscious of one’s mind, but not of the surroundings.
M: Well, it is about the same with me, Yet, there seems to be a difference. In each state you forget the other two, while to me, there is but one state of being, including and transcending the three mental states of waking, dreaming and sleeping.
**
Q: Coming back to sleep. Do you dream?
M: Of course.
Q: What are your dreams?
M: Echoes of the waking state.
Q: And your deep sleep?
M: The brain consciousness is suspended.
Q: Are you then unconscious?
M: Unconscious of my surroundings -- yes.
Q: Not quite unconscious?
M: I remain aware that I am unconscious.
Q: You use the words 'aware' and 'conscious'. Are they not the same?
M: Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience.
Q: How does one go beyond consciousness into awareness?
M: Since it is awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore the very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at once recognised as the original, basic existence, which is life itself, and also love and joy.
Q: Since reality is all the time with us, what does self-realisation consist of?
M: Realisation is but the opposite of ignorance. To take the world as real and one’s self as unreal is ignorance. The cause of sorrow. To know the self as the only reality and all else as temporal and transient is freedom, peace and joy. It is all very simple. Instead of seeing things as imagined, learn to see them as they are. It is like cleansing a mirror. The same mirror that shows you the world as it is, will also show you your own face. The thought 'I am' is the polishing cloth. Use it.
However, please read Nisargadatta's statements carefully:
"I am aware of being unconscious."
Q: And your deep sleep?
M: The brain consciousness is suspended.
Q: Are you then unconscious?
M: Unconscious of my surroundings -- yes.
Nisaragadatta is not saying that he is conscious during sleep; sleep is unconsciousness, by definition.
He is saying awareness; the awareness the underlies everything, is whole - without parts or breaks.
This is true; this is my experience, as well.
Awareness is not only present 24/7 - awareness is present eternally; it precedes and succeeds space and time, which are concepts of mind.
And so, if you're looking for someone who is conscious 24/7, I have never heard of that; sounds rather unnatural, and body-minds tend to do natural types of stuff.
Per your link; I'll review that other thread in detail, and if I can offer any helpful input, I'll comment over there.
Also - since you quoted Yogani, you might just ask him what his experience, is (if there's anyone here whose experience matches up exactly what Yogani describes, it would probably be Yogani, I'd guess.)
Though, it could be, and likely is, that Yogani was saying the same things that Nisargadatta says, above (from the beginning of Chapter 11, in I Am That), and that I'm confirming.
The confusion often stems, I find (this used to confuse me, and obviously, confused the questioner in I Am That, per the conversation shown above), because people are unclear on the difference between awareness and consciousness.
The simple explanation is: Awareness is light, consciousness is reflection.
And so, there is awareness 24/7, for everyone, in actuality -- little details of daily living such as ongoing heartbeat, respiration, circulation, and so on, even during sleep, attest to this fact.
However, there is not consciousness of these functions, the vast majority of experiential moments, regardless of the state, but awareness underlies them all, comprises them and manifests them; without awareness, nothing else is.
In enlightenment/tathata/natural state, etc. --- the shift is actually in the *opposite* direction, from the idea of being "conscious 24/7" -- all of the mind-stuff, with its fragmentations, aberrations and erroneous evaluations is seen to be as automatic as heartbeat or respiration; as body is body to mind, body-mind is body to awareness.
That's why I don't worry if profanity is expressed when I step on a thorn (I don't know if I've ever actually stepped on a thorn; it's a catch-all term for unexpected pain or other surprise, like being cut off by another driver, or whatever) --- there's no separation-sense, or anger .... but, even if there is, it's automatic.
And, when it's seen that the mind that goes with body-mind is indeed automatic, a reaction-reflection ... the whole dream of being a "someone" (aka clump of memory-reactions) dissolves ... and is seen as amazingly out of touch with reality.
Imagine if, in order to be "enlightened", you had to make sure you never itch, and never sweat.
That's how thinking about thinking, and managing all those concepts, and trying to understand things, in order to "attain enlightenment" seems to me, now.
That entire infrastructure, and every associated story is utter, fantastic fiction.
There's just reality, and we're either flowing with it, or constructing barricades against it -- pretend barricades, like little kids building a fort in the middle of the living room.
Enlightenment is relaxing in the living room, enjoying the moment.
Unenlightenment is being like little kids, building a fort, who have forgotten they're pretending, and are thus terrified.
A sad bad dream ...... right here in the middle of reality.
However, the changelessness that is true of awareness, isn't true of consciousness; consciousness fluctuates, as defined by the different states (waking, dreaming, deep sleep), and their arising-displaying-subsiding back into awareness, turiya, the "fourth state", which is the "screen", aka our true, changeless nature, upon which the other three states appear and disappear.
That's the big shift we're actually talking about here, and Nisargadatta describes it in I Am That:
The experiential shift is from feeling like a "person" who is awake, then dreaming, then sleeping, then awake, and so on ....
... to being the steady, changeless underlying awareness (we all know it; we all are it) ---- the awareness that is ever the same; the awareness behind-before all thoughts, feelings, circumstances and other fluctuations -- behind everything that changes, there is something changeless that is the being, actually experiencing it; the pure, experiencing awareness inherently unaffected by any content in awareness, or fluctuations therein.
Consider: a five year old child has clear awareness as the screen, the true subject, behind ever-shifting fluctuations of thought (thankfully not much, but probably a little, at age five), emotion and experience.
An eighty year old man or woman has exactly the same clear awareness, behind all thought, emotion and experience.
So does a whale, or an earthworm or a chihuahua - the experiencing of each is determined by the amount, type and levels of consciousness which can display via that given type of bodily form, but the awareness is the same; there's only one.
Awareness is light.
I don't know if that answers what you're seeking to know about sleep/awareness, but it's what I've "got" at the moment; I hope it's useful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- I'm VERY serious when I say "the one you're looking for is the one who's doing the looking" -- when we're doing anything other than letting attention rest in the clear awareness behind all the fluctuation (which is the One We Are), we're moving away from what we're seeking. Reality is within; all of it. If you don't believe me .... see what Nisargadatta has to say about it; he emphasizes this point a LOT in I Am That.
PPS- Some body minds sleep more, some less. Some think more, some less. Every state is inherently liberated. So is every thought. The only error is thinking that any of them actually have anything to do with you -- because the you that you think of as you is an error. Not in a way that needs to send anyone to the emergency psych ward, by the way ----- it's just a relaxing; that's all.
It's all already okay.
It's all already happening.
The world doesn't end when we accept this; only the dream-world ends.
We don't die, when we accept this; only the false-self dissolves in the beautiful reality that's always already here.
Letting go is truly being born now.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 26 2010 11:23:50 PM |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2010 : 11:32:36 PM
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quote:
Enlightenment is relaxing in the living room, enjoying the moment.
WOW!...it's really very easy...any more loquaciousness dilutes the pithy significance of this simple statement. Do you GROK the AYP concept of "less is more"?
Kirtanman....Sometimes all your words just confuse me.
But I do love your jokes!...can you please highlight them in RED like Jesus's words in the bible...this would greatly simplify my reading your posts. |
Edited by - machart on Jul 26 2010 11:57:49 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 01:19:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
He is saying awareness; the awareness the underlies everything, is whole - without parts or breaks.
This is true; this is my experience, as well.
Awareness is not only present 24/7 - awareness is present eternally; it precedes and succeeds space and time, which are concepts of mind.
Dear Kirtanman
How and when did you get such inexhaustible energy to remain aware 24/7? |
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