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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
 Posted - May 23 2010 : 05:59:31 AM
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Dear yogis,
Let me invoke your feelings of compassion, and ask for your help with an issue regarding compassion.
Does anyone here know how to fix a hardened heart? A friend of mine seems to have enormous difficulty in feeling compassion for himself, and thus for others. This inability stretches to incredible limits: he can be suffering incredibly, that he will look into that suffering in an utterly factual way, without any feeling of injustice, without any self-nurture.
For me, when I get these large amounts of suffering, I will think "how sad it is that I must suffer, and how unfair it is that people must suffer," but he will think something along the lines of "this sh*t is the stuff life is made of," just that.
It is as if he has a hardened heart. This morning I cried over and over again, it is so, so sad.
Does any of you ever had this problem, and knows how to overcome it? Or has a friend in this situation? Or has any practical suggestions whatsoever?
The only thing I found on the internet was a sort of "surrender-to-god" kind of speech, but we are really non religious, that would never work.
Bruno |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2010 : 11:14:31 AM
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| I am like your friend. He is right about suffering - it knows no fairness. The seeds that fall on bad soil will grow in whatever way they can. Nothing has worked for me so far. Perhaps AYP will eventually. I had one energy experience with a large energy flow through the heart. But now it is back to its old closed off ways. Beautiful passing scenery. |
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solo
USA
167 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2010 : 12:02:15 PM
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| I think your friend might need to find romance. Nothing like desire to burn through a heart chakra issue. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2010 : 7:28:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brunoloff
Dear yogis,
Let me invoke your feelings of compassion, and ask for your help with an issue regarding compassion.
Does anyone here know how to fix a hardened heart? A friend of mine seems to have enormous difficulty in feeling compassion for himself, and thus for others. This inability stretches to incredible limits: he can be suffering incredibly, that he will look into that suffering in an utterly factual way, without any feeling of injustice, without any self-nurture.
For me, when I get these large amounts of suffering, I will think "how sad it is that I must suffer, and how unfair it is that people must suffer," but he will think something along the lines of "this sh*t is the stuff life is made of," just that.
It is as if he has a hardened heart. This morning I cried over and over again, it is so, so sad.
Does any of you ever had this problem, and knows how to overcome it? Or has a friend in this situation? Or has any practical suggestions whatsoever?
The only thing I found on the internet was a sort of "surrender-to-god" kind of speech, but we are really non religious, that would never work.
Bruno
Hi Bruno,
Just as an alternate perspective .... maybe your friend doesn't have a hardened heart; maybe he just has the ability to deal with the "stuff of life" without adding any stories or evaluation to a simply factual matter.
If that's the case, I'd say that's actually healthy; less mental and emotional energy wasted, and thus available for whatever healing, etc. may be indicated by the situation itself.
For instance, I don't even say "this is the sh*t life is made of" ... I just say "this is what's happening" (yes, including with "my own suffering" .... though, without evaluation, it can't really be called suffering .... and it's certainly not my own  {stuff happens with these body-minds; it's the way of them; so what? }).
Almost all of us have been conditioned that compassion and caring means being "pulled in" and feeling bad "with" others .... and as far as I can tell, this conditioning has zero basis in any kind of reality.
(Would you want a doctor to break down and cry, because you have a health issue? Maybe not .... )
The only way we can save others from drowning is to stop drowning ourselves.
The only way we can stop drowning is to wake up.
How do we know if we're awake?
Easy.
We don't suffer.
And please know, Brunoloff: I truly don't mean this harshly; it's simply true.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 07:49:30 AM
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Well, in order to save anyone from drowning you need to want to do it, first. The feeling of nurture, and the ability to laugh, are the only ways I found, so far, to prevent me from growing bitter. I mean, getting hurt, again and again, due to depression and all the violent purification, has made me somewhat prone to solitude and disappointment. But while I have some desire for things not to be this way, my friend is prone to feel it's "all the same."
Also, where does it end kirtanman? It seems that ultimate stability only comes when all affective processes have been eliminated (you can check out the "Actual Freedom" (www.actualfreedom.com.au) web site). Then there is really no suffering, since the "suffering" software of the brain has been eliminated altogether. Is that something good?
I don't know... |
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mattb23
Australia
99 Posts |
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Wafu
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 12:14:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
I am like your friend. He is right about suffering - it knows no fairness. The seeds that fall on bad soil will grow in whatever way they can. Nothing has worked for me so far. Perhaps AYP will eventually. I had one energy experience with a large energy flow through the heart. But now it is back to its old closed off ways. Beautiful passing scenery.
Sorry if this sounds patronising, JDH, but please don't give up hope! Is it possible that you're mistaking feelings of detachment from the rise of the witness state for a lack of compassion or empathy? From what I've read of your previous posts AYP certainly seems to be working for you from an energetic perspective. Would you describe your progression towards inner silence to be as rapid? I'd be interested to hear more about your feelings on the matter if you feel like sharing.
Love |
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RO0o
Argentina
40 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 1:39:38 PM
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Bruno, you seem to suffer more than your friend does. Suffering is something that is not pleasant to your mind. Just accept it as what it is without letting your mind punish you with horrible futures.
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 2:35:59 PM
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Matt, thanks the link and everything, but this is the a-b-c of spirituality...
What you might not know, is that this sens of "I AM"ness, which Wilber speaks of, might not be as permanent as you would otherwise think. It is, once again, just another part of the mind, just like the sense of personal identity, and apparently can be gotten rid of also.
Once again, I refer you to the site of www.actualfreedom.com.au. It seems to signify that not only you can realize no-self, but you could just as well, by extension, realize the no-Self. It seems to imply that the "I am THAT" sentence that yogani so often repeats, just means that HE didn't get rid of this process...
People who underwent this kind of transformation clearly state that "there is no sense of being whatsoever."
It was this possibility which scared me, and still does, irrespective of me being able to see that scare as "not me," i.e., not "the subject".
I wonder what yogani has to say about this... |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 4:46:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brunoloff
Once again, I refer you to the site of www.actualfreedom.com.au It seems to signify that not only you can realize no-self, but you could just as well, by extension, realize the no-Self. It seems to imply that the "I am THAT" sentence that yogani so often repeats, just means that HE didn't get rid of this process...
People who underwent this kind of transformation clearly state that "there is no sense of being whatsoever."
It was this possibility which scared me, and still does, irrespective of me being able to see that scare as "not me," i.e., not "the subject".
I wonder what yogani has to say about this...
Hi Brunoloff:
Well, at least I didn't write a book called "I am THAT." Nisargadatta beat me to it.
Anyway, I generally don't say "I am THAT." I say "We are That." There is a difference. One separates us, and the other brings us together.
What else do I have to say about it? Not much. Better to meditate daily and find out for yourself what THAT is. You will see there is nothing to fear. Who fears freedom anymore, having tasted even a little of it?
Until there is abiding inner silence, these kinds of discussions are mostly mind games -- building castles in the air. Not that we should not have them. But we should know them for what they are -- scenery that cannot enlighten us. Only effective practices can do that.
So practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 6:33:09 PM
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Yogani, but it seems that it doesn't all "end up in the same place"!
For instance, these AF people claim to have no "affective" experience whatsoever (no sadness, for instance; they usually use expressions such as "perfect clarity" to describe their experience), which I would think is different than experiencing love radiating outwards. These people also claim to feel no "desire," while in here people actively practice devotion. Most people from insight tradition do not seem to experience "kundalini" at all (those I've asked very clearly deny experiencing any pulse in the base of the spine). etc
So could you be clear about how affectivity has changed because of your practice? |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 9:31:42 PM
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Hi Brunoloff:
Yes, it does all end up in the same place. And where is that? Is it a place of non-doing, or a place of outpouring divine love? Or both at the same time? And if it is a doing, is it personal, or absolutely impersonal? A non-doing that is doing? What we have many times called "stillness in action." It is a paradox.
There is only one way you will find out what this is about. Practice.
Don't take anyone's word for it. Practice.
This cannot be resolved in thinking. Only in going beyond thinking. This recent lesson addresses it: http://www.aypsite.org/403.html
There is no answer. Only a becoming, which is an undoing.
The guru is in you.
PS: It is also the undoing of a hardened heart. It may begin with tears of sorrow, which in time transform to tears of joy. In stillness we will know both deeply, while remaining untouched.
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2010 : 12:32:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wafu
Sorry if this sounds patronising, JDH, but please don't give up hope! Is it possible that you're mistaking feelings of detachment from the rise of the witness state for a lack of compassion or empathy? From what I've read of your previous posts AYP certainly seems to be working for you from an energetic perspective. Would you describe your progression towards inner silence to be as rapid? I'd be interested to hear more about your feelings on the matter if you feel like sharing.
Love
Hi Wafu, I don't mind at all, it's nice that you care. I won't give up. It is possible that there is some inner silence in disguise as a closed heart, but it also goes back to long before I began AYPractices. Solo is right, at least in my case, romance might do the trick, nothing else has. I've tried forcing romance, with that in mind, but it can't be forced, I only felt worse. Love works in mysterious ways.
As for progression of inner silence, it's harder to describe than energy. Overall, I'd say inner silence has not progressed much at all, but that I probably had a whole lot of it coming into AYP from my personal circumstances. Silence is not as noticeable as the energy, so the progression might not be as noticeable either. The energy screams to be noticed. And silence can't be heard at all. It merges seamlessly with the rest of experience.
I find myself just naturally letting go of strong thought cycles more often. Not even trying to do it, it's like an alarm bell goes off that warns, "don't get sucked into that thought and build it up into a giant snowball for the next 10 minutes, just relax." And I might relax for about 4 seconds before some other thought grips my soul for the next 10 minutes.
A few times I noticed I have talked without thinking. Like when you're drunk and the words just come from somewhere. Except I wasn't drunk. And again, it lasts a few seconds or a couple sentences.
Perhaps the biggest change is that I went from listening to music almost constantly to almost never. It seems like noise now. I prefer silence :)
On two occasions I've had stable states as "the witness" which lasted for several minutes. When it happens, I feel God present. The regular "me" becomes an "it" and point of view of experience shifts to God. As if God were watching me, and I could see that point of view for a minute. Both times occured after huge energy overflows. One of them out of my head, and the other out of my heart (the experience I referenced above). It seems the witness is linked to the overflow of the energy (the kind where the energy is in charge, and you're along for the ride).
Who knows? The energy is easy to talk about - the silence is silly to talk about. |
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mattb23
Australia
99 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2010 : 09:14:01 AM
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Hi Bruno,
It's great how so many here have reached out to you and contributed.
Bruno, I've tried many techniques over the years. I've read many books. I've played with many, many 'concepts'.
But as Yogani and the other guys said, I eventually 'realized' It (whatever It is Us/Self-realization/You/God/Life/Enlightenment) cannot be found on a mind level. For that, one must go 'deeper' i.e. beneath the wave and into the stillness, depth and infinite vastness beneath the oceans surface.
Personally, I've found self-enquiry (because it does still the mind by directing it 'deeper') along with the practice of meditation to be most powerful.
The beauty about self-enquiry is it can be practiced everywhere and anywhere. That in itself is an effective meditation when practiced with earnestness.
When we ask ourself the question Who am I? for example (knowing we are not the body, mind, thoughts etc and that this answer cannot be found in a thing or words or thoughts), the Self slowly yet noticeably becomes apparent and all else naturally falls away.
Everything changes but it's the most natural thing in the world. You come into harmony with your true state of being-awareness-bliss.
Again, this isn't easy to put into words. Words are only 'pointers' at best. They are a surface level description of the indescribable.
What's important is your own journey inward into the depths of stillness whatever way you choose.
"Paths are Many; Truth is one".
There is no 'best' technique, meditation, approach or path. All there is, is the one 'you' choose. The only place you can 'know' Self/Truth/Love/God is within.
You are not in the world, the world/universe is in you. When you realise Self all you'll see is Self/Love.
Take your time. Be gentle with yourself. You are on your way Home. Your present mind-body, body-mind struggle is simply the calling of Self to go 'deeper'.
Blessings,
Matt |
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How to mend a hardened heart?
