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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 24 2006 : 8:04:14 PM
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Forgive me if I'm the only dumb cluck who never realized this, but doesn't yoga pretty thoroughly explain the Adam/Eve/Snake/Apple/Garden/Knowledge/Eviction thing?
Without self-consciousness (which could well be translated as "knowledge"), we know paradise. But when we're tempted (by our passions, senses, cravings, aversions) into strengthening self-consciousness, we're evicted. We're always in the position of trying to get the genie back in the bottle.....which is possible, but difficult. But it sure does explain the Central Problem.
I'm thinking about rereading the Bible. After lots of meditation, I"m starting to realize it's the ultimate yoga manual.
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2006 : 9:20:11 PM
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Hi Jim,
I agree completely. Paradise is to live in the unity consciousness that we are all emanations of the same divinity, and therefore everything that is good for me is what is good for everyone else as well. And, the knowledge of relative good and evil is the awareness of me as a separate entity that must serve its own needs. These 2 are mutually incompatible, so if I choose to embrace the latter, I will be expelled from the unity consciousness. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2006 : 10:27:36 AM
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This is an interesting subject. How boring life would be without passions, senses, cravings, and aversions! Sounds like Puritanism. What if being tempted and then giving in to that temptation was part of the original Plan? Maybe that allowed us to become Self conscious, and by giving into our craving for knowledge, we unwittingly set out on the path back to God. Granted there was separation from God, but with that came the awareness of original unity. The mechanism of desire has enfolded within it the possibility for transformation, so instead of trying to stuff them back into the bottle, we can treat desire and passion as potential paths back to God, or oneness.
desire---------> transformation--------> bhakti---------> oneness
What I love about the Bible is that it tells the stories of men/women who WERE passionate; who repeatedly botched things up because of their misplaced desires, but who were transformed by their experiences into spiritual giants. David comes to mind - a real cad - but who can read the Psalms without getting all choked up?
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2006 : 11:16:57 AM
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quote:
How boring life would be without passions, senses, cravings, and aversions
my fault for using the standard terminology, leading to the standard misunderstanding. The problem's not passion, the problem's the picking and choosing what to be passionate about (which inherently locks you into the realm of dualism - which is a realm that only exists in the ego mind).
The attachment of preference and yearnings and aversions is the trap that leads us to the delusion that brings all misery and cuts us off from god/the flow/the universe/etc. It's what keeps us on the treadmill of waiting to be completed by whatever we deem missing, nary pausing if/when a completion is achieved before seeking the next thing to remove or add to our load. It's what makes us completely identify with mind (because this stuff is only IN the mind). It's what blinds us to our true selves.
The trick is to detach from these things, not to "swear them off". There are saints who profess a great love for a certain kind of cookie. It's spiritual irony....they do love the cookie, but take it out of their hands and they're not one bit less content with the universe. So preference needn't extinguish, and there's no Puritan right or wrong, it's just that these things are the ties which bind us if we, like 99.9% of humanity, confuse our true selves for the bundle of desires, disappointments, yearnings, and aversions of mind. http://www.allspirit.co.uk/hsinhsinming.html
Why do we fall into the trap? Why do we bind ourselves, and deem ourselves imprisoned in self consciousness when we are divinity awash with bliss? Blame the snake. We've been grappling with Eden ever since our ego minds began to seduce and entrap us with insubstantial promises. And we stupidly took (and still take in every moment) the bait, prefering the misery and suffering of a life of push/pull to the bliss of Eden which is still available to us if we'll only step off the treadmill.
For more on passion, I'd suggest a reread of http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=553 |
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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 03:33:13 AM
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| Hey Jim don't blame me! lol |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 08:53:25 AM
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| Lower case! |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 11:01:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Why do we fall into the trap? Why do we bind ourselves, and deem ourselves imprisoned in self consciousness when we are divinity awash with bliss? Blame the snake. We've been grappling with Eden ever since our ego minds began to seduce and entrap us with insubstantial promises. And we stupidly took (and still take in every moment) the bait, prefering the misery and suffering of a life of push/pull to the bliss of Eden which is still available to us if we'll only step off the treadmill.
I understand your meaning, but am not so sure that it's as black and white as you say. Our passions, wherever they may be placed, can lead us to the Divine. You probably don't agree, but I believe that all proclivities and passions stem from the same source - our hunger for God - and if we're prepossessed to dig deeply, we'll find our way back home. The insubstantial promises and sufferings are what drive the ego onward, eventually to surrender into That. It's not all so bleak - it's actually quite beautiful. Our dissatisfaction ensures that we'll eventually arrive at our destination. Don't blame the snake; honor her! :) |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 11:33:11 AM
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I am reading the Bible for the first time (Torah) and have very mixed feelings about this incredibly influential book. It is slow going and I am using some traditional jewish interpretations and explanations that help alot (Chumash).
I have two takes on the Adam and Eve story. One is that it is obvious that our cultures obsession with banning and regulating psychoactive substances can be directly traced back to this most early part of the bible. The fruit of the tree of knowledge was obviously a psychoactive plant of some sort and was forbidden. The serpent rather than deceiving Eve told her the truth, that her eyes would be opened and she would know good and evil and see as God sees. Previous to this experience Adam and Eve were as animals or perhaps Gods domesticated pets in the garden. Once their eyes were open they saw from a different perspective and were no longer in that happy ignorant paradise. They became as adults and could see right from wrong and perceived their nakedness etc. It seems to be a metaphor on the emergence of self conciousness from the innocence of childhood to the responsibility of maturity. |
Edited by - Victor on Jan 26 2006 11:34:24 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 12:09:31 PM
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| That's awesome, Victor. All hail the snake! :) |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 12:40:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
[quote]Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Our passions, wherever they may be placed, can lead us to the Divine. You probably don't agree, but I believe that all proclivities and passions stem from the same source - our hunger for God
If you'll reference the link above to this thread:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=553
....you'll be reminded that I actually agree in the extreme.
Our impasse here is in terminology. And it's not just you and me....it's the majority of people who are shown this standard line with the standard phrases, which all come with the potential for being taken the wrong way. Maybe after a few more weeks of resumed practices I'll be clear enough to explain myself more clearly...use more original and persuasive language and imagery (sp?) |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2006 : 10:25:21 AM
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You're persuasive enough, Jim. I THINK I know what you've been saying. I'm just seduced by the possibility that everything - including the snake, the ego, the delusion, and the suffering - are necessary elements toward our enlightenment. Or, as you may have heard when you were in Berkeley, S'all good. :) (my least favorite expression, btw).
VICTOR - do you have any recommended reading regarding your post? I've read bits here and there on the 'fruit' being an entheogen, and some have suggested that it was none other than the sacred Soma, but these articles were a little hokey. If you can recommend any books or articles, I'd appreciate it. |
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sean
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2006 : 1:57:18 PM
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I think the terminology breakdown is related to the differences in the masculine and feminine impulses toward realization. IMO the masculine impulse is to be Free, whereas the feminine is to be Love. At a lower stage the impulse to be free is a desire to be still and detach and disregard preference but ultimately even an enlightened master prefers a cup of tea to being beaten with a stick. So free from becomes Free As which organically includes freedom to enjoy the lovely, pleasurable dance of forms. At lower stages the impulse to be love is to crave movement, connection, people, place, food, being noticed, etc. but ultimately a realized Yogi can expand as Love so completely that s/he shines as Love through any circumstances of form.
Just my two cents.
Sean
http://www.thetaobums.com/forum |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2006 : 6:51:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
I'm just seduced by the possibility that everything - including the snake, the ego, the delusion, and the suffering - are necessary elements toward our enlightenment.
Totally agreed. And more. As I said in another thread:
The real mind trip thing is that even the karma is love. The dirt is love. And the ignorance. The whole bloody everything. May as well just let go. More. Even more. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2006 : 02:23:30 AM
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Meg, I don't have any specific writings about the Adam and Eve story relating to entheogens but I first remember reading about Aldous Huxley cautioning Timothy Leary on the resistance that he would meet from society by promoting entheogens to the general public. The caution from Huxley was that the resistancce to these substances was so ingrained in the culture as to be present in the first book of the bible.
I do highly encourage you to read the writings and dowload talks by Terrence McKenna on this subject and others related to the role of these plants and mushroomsin human development. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2006 : 10:40:32 AM
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Thanks, Victor. The little that I've read by McKenna was interesting, although it seemed more experientially based than factual. Like, his are all great ideas, but there wasn't much to grab onto. I'll check it out again. Huston Smith's recent book, Cleansing the Doors of Perception: The Religious Significance of Entheogenic Plants & Chemicals, is also very good, and he worked with Huxley and Leary, but he doesn't go into the Adam/Eve myth. He's a Christian, btw.
This is all fodder for another subject, which I'll post sometime soon, as I'm very interested in others' thoughts on the use of entheogens. Thanks again. |
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 6:29:56 PM
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http://www.deoxy.org has all kinds of articles on using entheogens, some by the authors mentioned here. Lots of shamanism stuff, too.
To me, the "knowledge of good and evil" the serpent gave to Adam and Eve means dualistic thinking. Duality leads to suffering, etc... |
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Ajita
Netherlands
19 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2006 : 06:31:35 AM
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Dear Jim and His Karma,
As some other important spiritual scriptures the Bible has been written down in Sandhya Bhasa, the twilight language. That is the symbolic language used by people starting to understand the reality, but not able to translate that into normal words, because there are none. The typical example is that of a fish looking above the water for the first time. How can he tell his fellow fishes about the clouds and the sun and the moon?
But, every spiritual seeker will immediately recognize the methaphors of these stories, even as he will be able to translate clearly many symbols appearing in dreams.
For the story of Adam and Eve, maybe I can help you with the following explanation.
Adam and Eve were modelled after Gods image. Their DNA information, we call impressions or Samskara's, totalling in Karma, came from the higher being (God) from which they are part of (see my "Subtle Anatomy" free booklet on www.raja-yoga.org).
The snake is the coiled energy channel, which in fact is double (Ida and Pingala) but with emphasis upon the Ida (Shiva energy) responsible for condensation in general and specifically desire, subtle desire (Vasana) to start with.
The snake tempted Eve with the fruits of the tree of knowledge and the original harmony (Sattva) was disturbed. The tree of knowledge refers again to the information, but this time to the information available on all energy channels in the world. So, Eve, our feminine part (left path or path dominated by Shiva and leading to Rajas and Tamas) was attracted by the world.
Most people think that this was a drama and that the fall out of the paradise was a condemnation. But, that would position Adam and Eve as stupid people. I do not think so. As far as I can understand, the fall out of the paradise was done on purpose.
The condition of human beings (they were not not 2 of them!)in paradise was half god and half human (read the Upanishad's). We could call them angels. In Sanskrit they are called Deva's or Vira's (heroes). They are described as having no hunger nor thurst, being very gentle, extremely intelligent and having only one eye. Those angels had the wish to improve their condition, but the surrounding of the paradise with all the harmony could not permit that. So, they chose for experience and the challenge of a possible victory over duality resulting in a higher condition. I call that the trampoline effect.
Now, we face the opportunity to fullfill our goal. In controlling the activity of the snake, our energy channels, specifically with Pranayama (see my other free book Hatha Yoga Pradipika for the complete explanation) and Yoga in general, we can uplift our condition of humans and become angels again, hopefully of a better quality as before.
How does this sounds to you?
Yours friendly,
Shri Yogacharya Ajita |
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Garden of Eden from Yogic Standpoint
