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Arjuna
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 09:47:14 AM
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I am an AYP practicioner for the past 8 months, and continue to meditate twice per day. My soul purpose for doing this practice is to have a direct God realization experience (whatever that means).
The only truthful claim that I can presently make is that, the deeper I go into silence, the more apparentt it becomes that all of my preconceived ideas of reality, self, God, life purpose, are not accurate. It's both scary and exciting at the same time...and I occasionally even mourn for the loss of my old familiar perceptions which I thought were "ME".
Anyway, I have also been studying an online Kabbalah course, and these folks repeatedly report that any type of meditation has nothing to do with spirituality. I have posed many questions to these online Kabbalists enquiring about how I have been led to believe that their are various paths to God, but they are adament in their response. They flat out tell me that Kabbalah is the only way to Spirituality "God".
This is not shaking my foundational practice of AYP, but it makes me angry to hear such things.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 10:10:42 AM
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Hi Arjuna,
What do their spiritual practices consist of if they don't practice meditation? |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 10:43:16 AM
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Their words are based in ignorance.So...dont worry,it happens everywhere and in all of us,sometimes.
Dont worry,follow your path.
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Edited by - miguel on Mar 02 2010 10:43:38 AM |
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 11:16:12 AM
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"They flat out tell me that Kabbalah is the only way to Spirituality "God".
Hi Arjuna, in my study of Kabbalah I have found no such fundamentalism and no such opposition to meditation.
My advice: if anyone tells you "my way or the highway" where spirituality is concerned, take the highway, as quickly as possible ;)
Kabbalah study can offer up profound and amazing insights, and I've profited deeply from it. Don't let some fundamentalists deter you from exploring it :)
One website that you might like (and I hope the fundamentalists you encountered were not found here ;) is http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...ituality.htm
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Arjuna
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 11:33:25 AM
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Folks. Here is an excerpt taken from the Kabbalah online forum:
Question: If one person works hard everyday in devotional yoga (that is yoga which aims to unite the self with God, not simply be healthy) and another works hard everyday studying Kabbalah, are they not exercising a similar desire?
Answer: No. As much as you want it to be that way, no they don't. You will understand when you experience it. One has no ability to unite their "self" with God. It is totally impossible. I will go a bit deeper here even though it will be very hard to understand. Only others can help one to change. Why? Because it is only the perfect prayer (meaning a totally unegoistical prayer that can do that). If I am sitting there meditating my caboose off trying to unite with the Creator, what can possibly be more egoistic than that? By the way, people who do this most certainly reach a psychological state that they call "spirituality". It is very peaceful and tranquil. Open up Psalms, which is David's personal journey through spirituality, and you will read about all sorts of wars and battles, ect. It is anything but peaceful and tranquil. In other words, what they are calling spirituality has absolutely nothing to do with what Kabbalah is speaking about. I understand your confusion here, because Kabbalah uses the word "soul" and so do tons of religions. That does not mean they are the same thing though - just the label. I truly hope you will be able to progress past this place soon.
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 11:58:23 AM
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Arjuna, I have several friends, long-time meditators, who have recommended this book to me: http://www.amazon.com/God-Verb-Kabb...48881&sr=8-1
I got into my kabbalah studies in an entirely different fashion, but my approach seems to overwhelm people ;) I would recommend checking out "God is a Verb", praying for guidance, and getting away from folks who might stifle your path... |
Edited by - wigswest on Mar 02 2010 3:34:16 PM |
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Arjuna
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 3:01:39 PM
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Thanks for all of your input! I hope that I am not misrepresenting the wisdom of Kabbalah in any way. If I am, it is purely out of my ignorance and lack of being able to comprehend Kabbalistic teaching.
I provided the previous Q/A response from the Kabbalah forum, so that AYP forum members could get a sample of their standard response that people receive when trying to find the similarities between Kabbalah, and non-Kabbalistic pathways to God.
This Kabbalah organization emphasizes that God is "The Will to Bestow", and that all of God's creatures are hard-wired with a "Will to Receive". Furthermore, everything that exists in this corporeal world is completely cut off from the Spiritual world(s). Thus, these Kabbalists teach that their is absolutely nothing that we can do as human creatures to contact or influence the Spiritual worlds.
That's all I have learned to this point, but I am still very curious to learn what they suggest that a human creature should do to advance towards God????? |
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 3:30:20 PM
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| It sounds like those are the Bnei Baruch guys, maybe? I don't know anything about them, I believe others on AYP have some experience with them and can speak more particularly to their beliefs... |
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Jivaakabhasana_Yogi
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 4:20:58 PM
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Aauummm,
Yea, this (would be) highly uncharacteristic of Qabbalist practioners. After all, the Talmud reveals that it was "implanted in the depths of humanity" from the beginning...and that it itself is responsible for the many forms of (valid) spirituality. I can also say, as someone brought up as a Jew, that Jews (spiritual, "religious", esoteric, or whatnot), would absolutely never accept the idea that Qabbala is the "only way", in fact, the Mosaic Law is only for Jews, and not for humanity.
The Ari and others have explained that the Divine Wisdom as such, exists in all humanity and is present in all approaches to that which is Holy.
I simply wouldn't put any credance in someone or some group claiming to teach the Wisdom, and saying they were the "only way." Utter nonesense...
Regards,
~Jivaakabhasana Yogi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 5:44:55 PM
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Hi Arjuna,
quote:
I provided the previous Q/A response from the Kabbalah forum, so that AYP forum members could get a sample of their standard response that people receive when trying to find the similarities between Kabbalah, and non-Kabbalistic pathways to God.
You might find that the similarities are to be found beyond the words that are used. You may find that what they would call perfect prayer is what we would call divine love/ unity.
Christi |
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Arjuna
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 6:53:47 PM
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Wigwest,
Yes. They are the Bnei Baruch guys. I discovered them after reading a post on this forum by Kirtanman. I really love a lot of their teachings, but I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around what seems to be their my way or the highway philosphy. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 7:50:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arjuna
Wigwest,
Yes. They are the Bnei Baruch guys. I discovered them after reading a post on this forum by Kirtanman. I really love a lot of their teachings, but I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around what seems to be their my way or the highway philosphy.
And Hey, that sounds like my cue to "weigh in", on this.
It's a bit tough to tell if the person who responded to you at their forum is merely incorrect, or if there is simply a bit of miscommunication going on.
I've found that Kabbalah in general, and Bnei Bruch in particular, offer some of the most profound spiritual teachings available anywhere, and for the most part (until now, at least) in a very open-minded way.
However, I've also seen (in the post you quoted, and in a book - From Chaos To Harmony by Rav Michael Laitman, founder of Bnei Bruch), a seemingly dismissive attitude toward other spiritual paths, specifically yogic and meditation-related paths.
The specifics are almost identical in both cases (what Rav Laitman wrote in his book, and what the person who responded to you wrote): the tranquility which comes from meditation and spiritual practices is considered to be utterly different than the end result of studying Kabbalah.
If one is talking about initial, surface-level meditation practices, experienced by limited ego-mind, this is an accurate view (just as the initial tranquility experienced by ego-mind is different than the end result of AYP, Kashmir Shaivism, or any other effective path, or path-combination).
However, both Rav Laitman and whoever answered this question, "globalized" their statements to a point of being significantly incorrect, being stated the way they were stated.
Their implication seems to be that all peace and tranquility resulting from meditation practices is reflective of lower awareness than that which is the culmination of studying Kabbalah.
Not only is this view glaringly incorrect, Kabbalah teaches that this is incorrect.
My sense of it is: Rav Laitman is apparently not aware of the deepest teachings of other traditions, or of the realization and awareness which can result from following those teachings and their attendant practices (which is the same as the end result of studying Kabbalah).
This is unfortunate, because everything else I've ever heard Rav Laitman say, or that I've read, that he has written, has been not only accurate, but in many cases deeply profound and helpful to full awareness-knowing of the Creator, for anyone. That's one of the reasons I've recommended Bnei Bruch so strongly, to date.
However, I'll state the actuality unequivocally: the wisdom and benefits of Kabbalah are equivalent to the most powerful and profound paths from any tradition, but they are not greater.
I say this from the standpoint of extensive study of Kabbalah and equivalent traditions (Kashmir Shaivism), as well as the results of practicing AYP (i.e. the fullness of Awareness revealed as a direct result of AYP).
Living Unbound from our true nature, and the teachings and practices which can help us to do so, is available via the practice-centric paths and groups within every major religion, and every wisdom tradition.
Cutting the person who replied to you just a little slack, though ... if you realize that he or she is essentially saying that limited-mind can never unite with God, that's a true statement (as you, Arjuna, mentioned in your first post in this thread, that you're beginning to experience for yourself).
Also, the idea that "it's all tranquility" has some traction in certain spirituality circles, and it may be that Rav Laitman and his students have only been exposed to this very surface-level view.
There are quite a few spiritual teachers from any path, who would point out that the inner conflict/purification stage is something that every practitioner who completes sadhana goes through, and so, from that standpoint, the statement that surface-level tranquility is "not at all what Kabbalah is saying" is echoed by many spiritual teachers and masters in other traditions, around the world.
Having said that, though ... it sounds like they do carry a rather overt and error-based prejudice concerning other traditions, which I hope they will adjust; for those of us who know it is error, it detracts a bit from their otherwise extremely profound set of teachings.
Please feel free to share this at the Kabbalah forum, if you feel it will be helpful, Arjuna. I'll be more than happy to discuss what I'm saying here, with Rav Laitman or anyone else affiliated with Bnei Bruch, if they feel that further clarification would be helpful.
I do have only the greatest respect for both Rav Laitman and Bnei Bruch, and find great value in their teachings. At the same time, though, this error regarding their view of other paths does seem to be quite glaring, and they seem to be doing themselves a disservice by stating such a significant error so unequivocally.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2010 : 10:20:06 PM
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Hi Arjuna, Others will disagree, but union with God is not a necessary goal of the spiritual path. Ego dissolution is. Ego dissolution can only happen with meditation. It doesn't happen with talking and reading. In my understanding, kabballah is a form realm practice. The Buddha's realization represents a higher vantage.
Meditation is not about tranquility. One needs a tranquil mind to observe one's mind impartially. But what one observes is not usually tranquil. It can be violently pleasurable or immeasurably peaceful. Either way one must recognize the temporary character of experience. Impermanence is the keystone of ego dissolution and the gateway to ultimate enlightenment.
The Buddha taught that tranquility can be a fetter. One must not rest one's mind on any experience in samsara or nirvana. When one doesn't fixate on any placement, the mind is freed.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Mar 02 2010 11:00:51 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2010 : 08:19:44 AM
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| It's attitudes like this which completely drive me away from bnai brauch. Honestly, I find studying the "occult" kabbalah to be MUCH more satisfying. I did take part in their correspondence course for a short time, but found the instructors to be of extremely poor quality. |
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Arjuna
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2010 : 10:54:37 AM
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Thanks for all of your replies!!!
Kirtanman: I too have found that many of the teachings of Bnei Baruch Kabbalah are very profound, yet described in such a manner that allows me to grasp the intentions. I have been attending their online classes for a few weeks, and plan to continue to study.
I thank you for turning me on to these folks, and also for your support.
Adamantclearlight: Whoa!!!! The topic of "ego dissolution" is what started me to have concern with these Kabbalists. Bnei Baruch reported that human creatures must inflate their egos to the max in order to approach spirituality. I have no clue how this works in application!!! Furthermore, they reported that the dissolution of the ego would result in a human creature having no desire to strive to pursue the Creator. I disagree with their reasoning. I have a hunch that my ego has a lot to do with preventing me from God realization!!! I do not have any rational explanantion for why I believe this, but I feel deep within my Soul that I am accurate!
My 8 months of AYP practices have been a blessing to me!!! The increased personal stability, insight, and happiness are wonderful. I truly trust in these profound practices that seem so simple in technical application. For me, all I do is my twice a day meditation, and then go about my dialy lifestyle... just as Yogani suggests.
...and (for me) what is most unique about AYP, is that it is the ONLY practice that I have ever been able to susatin a regimented practice beyond a few weeks. That is TRULY a MIRACLE!!! My wife is amazed that I devote 2 hours per day to this practice...she is even more amazed when I tell her that I am no longer even certain why I practice... but that I just do it because I do.
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2010 : 11:47:08 AM
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"but I feel deep within my Soul that I am accurate!"
Your inner guru - heed that voice, my friend, and actively seek out its counsel - good for you  |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2010 : 1:53:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arjuna
Adamantclearlight: Whoa!!!! The topic of "ego dissolution" is what started me to have concern with these Kabbalists. Bnei Baruch reported that human creatures must inflate their egos to the max in order to approach spirituality. I have no clue how this works in application!!!
Actually this is true about the Vedanta path. By dissolving the limited ego, one realizes oneself as the All. I think the Kabbalah path engages actions (primarily generosity) to realize this. But this is not the Buddhist path. By dissolving the limited ego, one recognizes that the metaphysical subject is a limitation (even if it is infinite), and it is nowhere to be found. Then, as a practice, one does not adhere to any state of being (limited or infinite); so one transcends "equivalence of form," and the form realm.
quote:
Furthermore, they reported that the dissolution of the ego would result in a human creature having no desire to strive to pursue the Creator.
From the Vedanta perspective, no desire to pursue the creator is a bad thing. From the Buddhist perspective, no desire to pursue the creator is a good thing. Meditation is no desire; all thoughts are released in awareness. One should be impartial (desireless and beliefless).
quote:
I disagree with their reasoning. I have a hunch that my ego has a lot to do with preventing me from God realization!!! I do not have any rational explanantion for why I believe this, but I feel deep within my Soul that I am accurate!
Release it in stillness. And observe that objectively.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Mar 03 2010 1:57:08 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2010 : 5:08:25 PM
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Hi Arjuna,
quote:
The topic of "ego dissolution" is what started me to have concern with these Kabbalists. Bnei Baruch reported that human creatures must inflate their egos to the max in order to approach spirituality. I have no clue how this works in application!!!
If we take the ego to mean our sense of self, then gradually this expands to encompass all. There is nothing that we are not, and we see our Self shining in everyone and everything, everywhere.
This is what is meant by Oneness, and by the term Brahman. It was discussed in this thread:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3429#29810
As far as getting rid of the ego goes, Yogani discussed it in this thread here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=4743#40738
"But it is all personal and it is all divine. One cannot be separated from the other. There really isn't any difference. The only difference happens when we finally are able to accept it as it is, and that we can easily do in stillness. All of the discussions about ego and getting rid of ego are fabrications of the mind. The concept of ego itself is a fabrication. " [Yogani]
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2010 : 5:18:48 PM
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All is a fabrication. 
Adamant |
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Kabbalah Folks ClaimThe Only Way to Spirituality
