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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 05 2006 : 11:02:41 PM
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Hi Yogani,
I went looking for this today and couldn't find it easily and I thought this was such an excellent explanation of the evolution of the enlightenment process that I wanted to re-post it here. Besides, this section of the forum hasn't had a new post for a long time!
"So we go from inner silence, to energy experiences born of the friction of neurological purification, to the flat witness, to energy becoming ecstatic conductivity, to the merging of ecstasy and inner silence and becoming ecstatic bliss, to the unity experience of outpouring divine love."
Yogani |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2006 : 12:27:37 AM
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| Yes, Anthem, I agree that this is an excellent explanation of the evolution of the enlightenment process. I don't remember reading it just like this, so I am curious in which lesson or message you found it? |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2006 : 9:54:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by weaver
Yes, Anthem, I agree that this is an excellent explanation of the evolution of the enlightenment process. I don't remember reading it just like this, so I am curious in which lesson or message you found it?
Ah yes, I meant to include that link:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=1
It's in the thread on Samadhi about half way down on the first page.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2006 : 9:31:04 PM
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I'm coming up on 1 year of doing twice a day AYP practices without having missed a session and I have taken some time recently to reflect on how things have changed for me after this effort. In the spirit of the science of yoga and doing our best to verify cause and effect, I thought it would be fun to discuss some of the changes we have observed in ourselves inside and outside of practices.
Reflecting over the last year of practices, I have definitely noticed some differences in the dynamics. I remember not being able to feel my spine or spinal nerve much at all at the beginning outside of any major energy surges. I remember becoming aware of the spinal nerve very acutely one day outside of practices, more near the base, and noticed that over the last year, my awareness of the spinal nerve during pranayama and meditation has increased at a steady rate. I now have a steady ecstatic feeling in the spine which is not nearly as intense as times of intense purification or energy surges, but is growing steadily and daily.
I make a distinction between energy surges (which still happen but are fewer and farther between) and the way I feel during regular practices because i think the latter is the best reflection of how things really are. I used to look for the energy surges and want to hang on to them because a- they felt so good and b- they were very physical and real examples of big things happening, but the truth is they are fleeting and come and go and aren't permanent like the things that grow slowly over time.
Changes I have noticed in my conduct and conduct towards others were covered a while back in this post:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=1
In addition to these improvements in conduct, I am not sure why but it is easier to read people and understand their thoughts, feelings and motives. One of the most poignant things that has happened is that I feel much more completely in the here and now. When in this head-space (for lack of a better description), everything is more intense looking, vivid, colorful etc. and even the most mundane activities become fascinating. I feel more in tune with the energy around me and as I mentioned in another post I often feel I am carrying around an inner happiness that radiates from the inside and is very comforting. For some time now, I also see a barely suggested background luminescence, for lack of a better description, like white waves or points of light on a dark background whenever looking at any object, like a wall, the floor, the sky, my foot, always there behind it all, always present, can’t explain it.
I would love to hear what others have observed?
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2006 : 01:21:03 AM
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Hello Anthem,
Most of what you mentioned in your last paragraph, I can relate to (vividness, fascination, etc.). However, for me those experiences have been intermittent. Which makes sense because my practice has been intermittent.
When I'm at a peak in my practice, I usually feel more "real" and connected, if that makes sense. Other people notice me and acknowledge my presence more, so I feel like I exist more than usual. Everyone seems friendlier, and women actually smile at me 
On rare occasions, I feel something take control of my body, and all my movements are fluid and perfect. The feeling in my spine makes me giddy, so I chuckle and laugh when this happens.
And something really weird... which happens daily, is that certain numbers really stand out and I see them everywhere. For example, every time my odometer hits an even 10 miles, my eyes automatically look at it. If I randomly look at a clock or timer, microwave, etc., it will read either 4:20 or 5:24 (both of which have significance for me)... Has anyone else experienced that? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2006 : 6:10:25 PM
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cosmic troll said:
And something really weird... which happens daily, is that certain numbers really stand out and I see them everywhere. For example, every time my odometer hits an even 10 miles, my eyes automatically look at it. If I randomly look at a clock or timer, microwave, etc., it will read either 4:20 or 5:24 (both of which have significance for me)... Has anyone else experienced that?
Honestly Cosmic, I'd expect that this is just an anomaly in your nervous system, some sort of selective-awareness thing going on.
Have you experienced things like this before you started meditating? Any patterns in license-plates, street/building numbers and so on?
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2006 : 6:55:45 PM
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Hi Yogani,
I have reread all the lessons in the AYP index on "the witness" but was wondering if you could define or elaborate on the "the flat witness" outlined in your quote above? Is it similar to living in the here and now 24/7 (or most of the time) and not constantly taking any mental thought trips?
Hi David, how about you, have you noticed an evolution in your practices since you started AYP? What changes have you noticed inside and outside of practices since you started AYP?
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 12:57:14 AM
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Hey David,
Thanks for the response. That's an interesting idea you have... Before I started meditating, this was extremely rare. Maybe less than once a year, to my recollection.
I don't know if I agree with you, simply because the number on my vehicle registration tag for this year also contains 524. That's something very physically real, with a low probability of getting that combination.
I suppose I could be blocking out all other combinations, though.... I like to think it's synchronicity, but who knows |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 09:38:10 AM
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Welcome, Cosmic. Troll on!
Anthem, I'm a special case because I had nearly all the (major) practices of AYP already.
Advanced kechari and amaroli (which I did not have) have been major boons. The effect of kechari has been, among other things, to produce a partial heart-opening.
There is also a very gradual evolution towards 'witness'. But I am an odd case perhaps because I think I have somehow by-passed undone work at 'lower chakra' levels, and became very top-heavy. A little like Ken Wilber said he did. That lower chakra work will find its way to me, I am sure, whether I like it or not!
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2006 : 10:16:33 AM
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quote:
I have reread all the lessons in the AYP index on "the witness" but was wondering if you could define or elaborate on the "the flat witness" outlined in your quote above? Is it similar to living in the here and now 24/7 (or most of the time) and not constantly taking any mental thought trips?
Hi Anthem:
The first emergence of the witness (I used "flat" to emphasize inner stillness) is a duality situation. That is, all the thinking and activity goes on pretty much as usual. The difference is we find that we are effortlessly observing it all. Inner silence is there, and we actually first notice it by the contrast with activity occurring inside and outside us. In time, we develop some skill in operating from stillness and then it moves out into thinking, feeling and the events happening around us in the world. Samyama is a means for promoting this development -- manifesting ourselves from stillness and moving outward. But even so, the activity inside and around us is still going on -- it is only that our relationship with it is changing. We become it on the deepest level of our being, which is not the same as egoic identification. Duality gradually dissolves, and we experience "stillness in action," which is the rise of the unity experience. Our choices in action are changed by this, because our perception is becoming non-dual -- unifying -- which is the essence of divine love operating in the world. All of this corresponds with the neurobiological transformation going on within us via practices.
Interestingly, this evolutionary process resolves the dual versus non-dual nature of existence argument once and for all. Ultimately, it is about the condition of the human nervous system and our perception through it. The perception is the reality (so both arguments are valid), and with practices the perception changes gradually from dual to non-dual.
As for being in "the now" and not taking any thought trips, with the emergence of the witness the thought trips will still be happening, and we will be watching them play on the screen of our silent awareness, so technically we are not taking the trip (and yes, that is in "the now" early on). Later on, the thought trips will become illuminated by the divine channeling through us, and we will be That. The thought trips do not stop. However, their essence does change to divine quality and purpose, and that is the difference.
The guru is in you.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2006 : 7:50:30 PM
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Thanks for this great reply Yogani, it is very illuminating.
quote:
Interestingly, this evolutionary process resolves the dual versus non-dual nature of existence argument once and for all. Ultimately, it is about the condition of the human nervous system and our perception through it. The perception is the reality (so both arguments are valid), and with practices the perception changes gradually from dual to non-dual.
This quote gets me wondering how some people (maybe very rare?) like Eckhart Tolle and claims from some other famous yogis/ monks etc. to have had an all at once awakening. Particularly in the case of Tolle, who did not appear, from his description, to have had a clear or optimally functioning nervous system? To me a gradual unfolding of the nervous system and a gradual improving of behavior and perceptions makes seense to me and fits nicely within the AYP philosophy but do you have any ideas or theories on how to explain someone like Tolle?
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2006 : 9:49:51 PM
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Hi Anthem:
One explanation is that those who apparently become suddenly enlightened were born close to it. This implies a lot of spiritual work in previous lives, if one subscribes to the reincarnation theory. And, if not, well then, who knows how they arrived in the near enlightened condition? They are here, and that is a good thing.
You know, folks like Tolle are still evolving too, as teachers working to offer something practical to others. Sages who are not doing that are not of much help to the rest of us, or ultimately to themselves. There is no free lunch until everyone is on board.
All aboard!
The guru is in you.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 12:11:47 AM
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Thanks for that post Yogani.
I'm going to throw in a completely unfounded theory on these types of sudden awakenings that seem to happen in extreme circumstances just for the heck of it and maybe others will join in.
Perhaps in some cases there is a near-death type of phenomena where the spirit or soul (whatever one prefers) withdraws from the body and there is a complete release of all physical tension, knots and blockages (this happens when people or animals die). The consciousness has total acceptance and surrender to what Is and then the re-entry of the consciousness/ soul/ spirit into the unfettered nervous system yields total awareness and understanding of their true nature(unless they block it up again!).
That's my deep thought for the day!
A
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Edited by - Anthem on Jan 30 2006 12:13:57 AM |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 07:55:33 AM
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Hi A:
Or maybe Tolle is a philosopher charlatan. I'm not saying he is, just maybe.I read the Power Of Now and it just didn't click for me.
We are one
Guy |
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Lavazza
69 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 08:35:30 AM
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"You know, folks like Tolle are still evolving too, as teachers working to offer something practical to others. Sages who are not doing that are not of much help to the rest of us, or ultimately to themselves. There is no free lunch until everyone is on board."
At a work shop with a pranayama master one student expressed the same opinion, but the master answered that sages are helping other people even when they are living isolated and not teaching but only practising.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 08:37:25 AM
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>Perhaps in some cases there is a near-death type of phenomena where the
>spirit or soul (whatever one prefers) withdraws from the body and there is
>a complete release of all physical tension, knots and blockages (this
>happens when people or animals die).
The problem with that theory is that karma is held in the nervous system, not just in the physical body but in etherial bodies. So such an occurence would require divine intervention to release all karma at once. This is possible, but highly unlikely, unless the person was fairly close to that point by himself. Divine intervention will often remove large blocks of karma for people with a lot of bhakti and regular practice, but not everything. It is up to the individual to remove karma by working in the world and practicing and realizing the truth along the way.
The idea is to retain autonomy while traveling this path.
Unfortunately, karma is not released by dying or being born (I wish!).
I think your idea is partly right though, as people who have near death experiences are often completely changed in their outlook. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 09:49:48 AM
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Hello,
Interesting to read all your thoughts about this.
I think a near-death experience can be such a profound experience, if you see the light and angels etc., that it can change your whole outlook on life and break down the old habit patterns of thinking and preferences in life. And it may give profound new insights about life. The experience could also possibly create infusions of energy in the nervous system which could cause certain openings. But we know that openings and energy experiences are just small steps along the road to enlightenment. Just my thoughts on the subject. |
Edited by - weaver on Jan 30 2006 10:56:46 AM |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 10:06:10 AM
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Hi All:
Anthem, I agree that near death experience (NDE) can have a profound spiritual effect -- but it is rarely the final step -- there is no such thing as a final step really, only ever higher degrees of divine outpouring and illumination. Interestingly, there have been a few who have written in here over the past couple of years looking for practices to expand on (or manage) what their NDE gave them. Not that we should run off and have a NDE.
John Wilder was into pressing the envelope. And he did, in fact, have a NDE that was a confirmation and transition point in his work.
Lavazza, I agree about sages in isolation affecting everyone, but I think it is often over-rated. We can't know for sure about such claims, can we? As it says in the Bible, "By their fruits ye shall know them." Sages who are active in the world have a special role, because they empower the people to act for their own spiritual benefit instead of relying on anonymous invisible forces, which can breed superstition. It is the cultivation of divine presence (pure bliss consciousness) that counts. After that, to each their own. Those who seek to enable people everywhere to reveal it directly in themselves via practical means are meeting the challenge where it lies. My hat is off to Tolle and all who are giving it a go. It is the most important work on the planet.
The guru is in you.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 11:25:51 AM
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quote:
The problem with that theory is that karma is held in the nervous system, not just in the physical body but in etherial bodies. So such an occurence would require divine intervention to release all karma at once. This is possible, but highly unlikely, unless the person was fairly close to that point by himself. Divine intervention will often remove large blocks of karma for people with a lot of bhakti and regular practice, but not everything. It is up to the individual to remove karma by working in the world and practicing and realizing the truth along the way.
Hi Ether,
Again, highly theoretical, but I would suggest karma is all a derivative of delusional perspective of the world and ourselves. When the NDE occurs and the true nature of ourselves/ the universe is revealed to oneself, many of these delusions that precipitate the karma acting out are seen through and therefore not acted out any longer.
In addition, like with children, I believe our physical bodies start out as a clean slate and as karma is acted out from held over delusions in the ethereal body, these blocks in the form of pain and tension from our actions store in the physical body compromising the flow of energy and the optimal functioning of the nervous system. In other words, it takes time for the physical body to reflect the ethereal body as the karma acts out in the world and comes back to be stored in the body as pain and suffering caused from a person's actions. To me, this is often seen in some people as they age and become more blocked up and more delusional from repeatedly acting out their karmic delusions. Other people who are inclined to learn from their delusional behavior, seem to suffer less and not more as they get older.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 11:25:52 AM
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Hi,
I have been taught and have been told by one who's mother this happended to.Near death experiences can often awaken siddhis. I worked 2 yrs ago with a young man who's mother had a NDE and is now clairvoyant.I think it spooked her husband as they have since parted.
Yogani of course sages who work in the open and give to all are bound to have a greater impact, but they can and do i belive work towards helping in other ways.I recently obtained a copy of Guruji's Divine Sound and have to say it has the potential to change the world in ways we could never imagine.Due to our better systems of communication I am sure it will be widespread in a few years much like your books.The energy in the DS is amazing and the effects are something else.I had some Tai Chi friends listen to it yesterday and they were blown away with it.One commented that he didn't 'want to return'.Although they have practiced Tai Chi for a number of years it was something they had never experienced before and were completely taken aback.I also handed them my Asan that has been charged by guruji when I was in India and one of them couldn't speak as the energy took his breath away.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Lavazza
69 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 4:27:21 PM
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"Lavazza, I agree about sages in isolation affecting everyone, but I think it is often over-rated. We can't know for sure about such claims, can we?"
Well I certainly do not know, but this was a very advanced guy and he was very generous in sharing and he would not critisize other sages for not sharing. So in his my mind he knew for sure that these sages were already helping people.
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 4:48:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lavazza
Well I certainly do not know, but this was a very advanced guy and he was very generous in sharing and he would not critisize other sages for not sharing. So in his my mind he knew for sure that these sages were already helping people.
Hi Lavazza:
In the old days, they used to call it the "Great White Brotherhood" -- Those anonymous sages meditating behind the scenes, uplifting all of humankind which was in no position to do it for itself. I am sure there must be a "Great White Sisterhood too." My hat is off to all of them.
At least in part thanks to them, we now have thousands teaching in the open, and thousands more are joining in each year. It is a time for stillness in action...
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 5:09:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by robertjames
Hi A:
Or maybe Tolle is a philosopher charlatan. I'm not saying he is, just maybe.I read the Power Of Now and it just didn't click for me.
We are one
Guy
Hello Guy,
well, nothing is entirely black and white. My feeling is that he went through some pretty strong spiritual development. Is he perfect? No. There may be a touch of charlatanry there, some self-mythologization, some very woo-woo stuff presented as fact (particularly about women's menstrual cycle) and so on, but that's par for the course right now, and probably will be for a long time, until there are far more enlightened people.
[Added later: maybe I am being unfair to Eckhart Tolle associating him with self-mythologization -- see below ]
I say unto ye, some of the belauded 'greats' of the last century who brought Yoga to the West, had more of charlatanry about them than we care to know.
Maybe self-mytholigization is just part of the showmanship of the whole teaching business. It has it's dark side, but it has its bright side too. From one point of view, it is part of PR ( Public Relations), helpful maybe to get a message going.
While enlightenment is rare, it will probably present to us in a form which is somewhat muddled maybe, inflated a bit, magicalized a bit, with a bit of woo-woo here and there -- in a word, with a little charlatanry. Often people have something of charlatanry about them without knowing it -- the very traditions carry it with them to an extent.
If we can see it, it's good that we see it, and our growing ability to see it and criticise it is a positive thing, but then we shouldn't reject the message or the teacher in entirety. We have to take the best from them just as we do from each other.
Surely the last word on charlatanry should come from the great Babaji, 900-year-old saint and male hair-model who has materialized castles in the Himalayas, 'Be like the wise ant who seizes the sugar and leaves the sand alone'.
(If you didn't get the irony, Happy are Ye!  )
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 01 2006 10:41:17 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2006 : 8:30:54 PM
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quote:
Or maybe Tolle is a philosopher charlatan. I'm not saying he is, just maybe.I read the Power Of Now and it just didn't click for me.
We are one
Guy
Hi Guy/ David,
I just finished reading Tolle, "The Power of Now" and am just starting now his second book. While I really enjoyed the bookand found it incredibly insightful and uplifting, I did have the impression that at the time of writing his first book, that his heart chakra was not fully open and that he lacked a little compassion for the "ego driven masses". Other than that I felt the book contained a great many truths and wisdom and provided me with an acceleration down the witnessing path.
I didn't however get the impression that he was guilty of any "self-mytholization" or "charlantry" and wondered what gave you both these impressions?
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2006 : 08:51:50 AM
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Hi David:
I love the sugar/sand metaphor,also, what the hell is a male hair model?
Hi Riptiz:
Where can one obtain a copy of Guruji's Divine Sound?
Guy |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2006 : 11:32:37 AM
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Hi Anthem,
I'd be happy to try to answer that, regarding the self-mythologization. I wouldn't have gotten the impression of charlatanry per se directly, so I'll leave that one to Guy.
Let me emphasize firstly that I think 'The Power of Now' is a great book and a great service. I agree with everything you said about it.
Let me emphasize secondly that I am saying that self-mythologization is 'par for the course' and probably quite unconscious. So I don't by any means single out Eckhart Tolle for it. In fact, if anything he stands out among famous spiritual teachers as being low in self-mythologization --- very low.
Which is why, in a way, it might be particularly unfair in my post that self-mythologization is mentioned in connection with Eckhart Tolle.
OK, let me explain what I mean by self-mythologization and how it seems to be extremely common among spiritual teachers: self-mythologization among spiritual teachers manifests in the quality of the role in which they inject themselves. This role is prepared for them by the myths of the past, by the great guru/saviour/messiah myths, maybe even by our 'archetypes', and by their tendencies.
I believe they become a little inflated from this role and stop speaking person-to-person in a totally honest, open and truthful way. They don't tend to say 'I don't know' or 'I'm wondering', because that would detract from the myth they are building around themselves.
They mythologize their own progress and path. They often mythologize it in a way that makes it look as if their own particular progress was independent, and that it was not helped by other people and things. Or, to the extent that they were helped by others, the role of the others is subsidiary, and lower-status than their own. They assume a posture as if they are an independent (or final) point of light, an isolated genius, a new Source. They are the Lone Hero.
Has this happened with Tolle? I think a little, yes. [ Not sure I am being fair to Tolle here -- haven't given him benefit of doubt ] I alluded to it in an earlier post. I believe he was helped significantly by a number of teachers and paths (including Zen) **after** his partial enlightenment experience. But there is very little credit given to these paths and teachers, in fact, they are downplayed. He doesn't say something like 'Some of my great teachers and buddies in zen and other traditions helped me to find more securely what their great masters enjoy' -- no, that wouldn't be Lone Hero -- instead he said something very Lone Hero like 'he realized that they were all looking for what he already had'.
This thing may play in with your own observation that his heart chakra is not 'fully opened'. A person whose heart chakra is fully opened is not inclined to go for Lone Hero and is much less susceptible to falling into an inflated role; they will tend to speak person to person in a totally honest way, which manifests their vulnerability and interdependence. Any role activity that draws you out of that relationship of interdependence, is a role that draws you only because 'the heart' is partially lost or not properly grown. Lone Hero only arises when 'the heart' is not fully developed and healthy.
I could be wrong about Tolle in particular (though I think then that the 'wise ant' could find something useful in what I said about spiritual teachers as a group). Regarding Tolle in particular, this is just a set of impressions, possibly even just a forumite shooting his mouth off unfairly, not the result of a deep study. But my own gut feeling is that there is indeed some truth in it.
Let me know what you think. If you think I've gotten it totally wrong about Tolle, don't spare me.
Best regards,
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 01 2006 10:42:11 AM |
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Enlightenment Milestones
