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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 23 2009 : 9:44:11 PM
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Hi Christi & All,
Per the topic-drift in this thread .... I started a new thread on levels and models of enlightened consciousness, over here.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 12:06:33 AM
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Hi Christi, TI & All,
Some thoughts from Yogani on the nature and attainability of enlightenment:
"Enlightened people can fall flat on their face like anyone else. The good news is that it leaves little lasting impression (limited identification), and that is why calamities befalling the enlightened are often accompanied by infectious laughter.
There is additional good news. Because enlightenment is not some distant imaginary perfection, we each will find it to be much closer to what we are experiencing right now. It is very near, and with daily practices, getting nearer all the time. It is ... Now.
For some additional perspective, see this lesson on "enlightenment and perfection".
Does this mean an enlightened person can be grumpy? Sure. It also means that they will attract mainly those people who need (or are willing to put up with) a grumpy teacher. Everyone has a choice on how they conduct their life -- both teachers and students. The enlightened and the nearly enlightened.
No one has a corner on the market.
The guru is in you."
Originally Posted Here.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 12:15:10 AM
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Hi Kirtanman :)
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Hi TI,
Believe me, I know how entertaining this can be.
This is not entertainment for me. I'm deadly serious. I appreciate clear, concise and congruent teachings and that is not what I get from you-know-who and you-know-what.
I noticed you evaded the question about "how long you can remain in nirvikalpa samadhi". Perhaps you cannot and you are afraid to admit that you still have a long way to go. You may think that you are enlightened according to you-know-who's redefinition of enlightenment, a reductionist bastardization of the term for true self-realisation, but I'm trying to point out to you that you shouldn' fall into that trap. You seem to think that you've arrived. That is fine. What if you haven't arrived? What if there is actually way more than you-know-who is teaching?
You:
quote:
"Nirvikalpa samadhi" .... is the "primal unity free from thought constructs" ......... that's what those words mean.
Here is another link about nirvikalpa samadhi:
quote:
Sunday
LESSON 266
The Way after Realization
When a yoga guru brings others from darkness into light and from light into Self Realization, he is also strengthening his own golden body. When a satguru makes it easy for his sannyasins to remain in the practice of Self Realization, encouraging them and demanding of them the practice of nirvikalpa samadhi, he helps them hold their forces in check through the power of his golden body.
After nirvikalpa samadhi, the sannyasin has a choice to serve mankind or to wait for mankind to unfold into the consciousness that he has attained. This is called being a bodhisattva or upadeshi, one who serves, or an arahat or nirvani, one who waits. The golden body begins to grow through service and by bringing others into enlightenment as a bodhisattva, or through the constant practice of nirvikalpa samadhi while living a strictly secluded life as an arahat, only mixing with those of his own level of realization.
The sahasrara chakra at the top of the head and the ajna chakra at the brow, or the third eye, are the two controlling force centers of the soul body. These force centers become the two lowest chakras of the yoga master's new golden body, svarnasharira, as this body begins to build after his first nirvikalpa samadhi.
The usual experience before nirvikalpa samadhi is for the aspirant to become a knower of the Self. This could occur at any time during his training. In order to attain this experience of "touching into the Self," he must have a complete balance of all odic and actinic forces within him. A noted change in his life pattern often occurs after he becomes a knower of the Self, for the soul body has become released into orbit, and he has then a subsuperconscious control of this body. In other words, the odic-force tie has been released. This body has quickly matured. Then, if practicing contemplation as prescribed by his satguru and finally working out the various karmic binds or holds in the lower odic force field with the help of the guru, he attains complete Self Realization, or nirvikalpa samadhi. Then the golden body, svarnasharira, is born through the merging of the forces of the pituitary and the pineal gland, setting the sahasrara into a constant spinning motion. This constant spinning motion generates the force which propels the yoga adept back into nirvikalpa samadhi. Each time he goes into nirvikalpa samadhi he intensifies a little the spinning movement of this chakra, unfolding it a little more, and as this occurs, the golden body begins to build.
When the yoga adept touches into the Self and becomes a knower of the Self, attains nirvikalpa samadhi, becomes Self Realized, yoga powers come to him. These yoga powers are often renounced, depending upon the rule of the order to which he belongs, whether it be a teaching order or an order of hermits. According to the need, a power is developed. The powers that a yogi can use are as many as the petals within the sahasrara chakra. They are 1,008. These powers are conceived through the nadis -- small, elastic-like psychic nerve currents extending out into and through the aura of the body. The nadis work in conjunction with the chakras, and with the major currents of the body, ida, pingala and sushumna.
Realizing Parasiva gives you great power, but to use that power very sparingly or not at all is the greater thing to do, because the power itself works of its own accord. If you have powers, siddhis that are unfolded, it is best not to consciously use them. You can demonstrate to yourself to be sure you have them, but these siddhis are all connected with devonic forces that will work totally for righteousness without your demonstrating them. That is why no one wants to come up against a rishi. Similarly, a good king does not use his power. He makes everything flourish without appearing to be powerful. His greater power happens in unseen ways.
Remember, when the kundalini force becomes strong within you during a meditation, just sit and be aware that you are aware -- a blissful state called kaif in Shum, the language of meditation. You will feel very positive and experience yourself as a great big ball of energy. When the energy begins to wane, try to absorb it into every cell of your external body, then continue your meditation exactly where you left off. In this way you will build a strong, disciplined nerve system and subconscious mind. This will lead you naturally onto the next inner plateau, then to the next and the next.
Never allow yourself to be complacent in your spiritual attainments. Always continue to strive. Even rishis, swamis and yogis who have totally realized Parasiva continue to work on themselves from within themselves. They don't let down, because if they did it would be many years before they had the next experience of the timelessness, formlessness, spacelessness of the unspeakable Parasiva experience. The message, therefore, is, at the beginning of meditation and at the end, keep striving. Don't turn back, but proceed with confidence.
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-38.html
:)
TI |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 08:15:38 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
When Yogani writes of enlightenment involving ecstasy, he's trying to give a general sense of how wonderful enlightenment is ... using one of the few terms that might serve to give limited mind any sense of what enlightenment might be like, in any way.
But Yogani does say that ecstasy is not only one of the milestones en-route to enlightenment, but that it is also an essential ingredient in the enlightenment equation, and that full realization cannot occur without it.
quote:
That's why it truly isn't pertinent to talk much about enlightenment, other than very generally ........ anyone not experiencing it can't understand it,
Is this a recent observation that you've made. 
quote:
I can't say for sure that Adya has ever used the phrase "crappy day" ... that may have been my mis-remembering (though he may have; my point is: in enlightenment there aren't really "crappy days" ... that's a figure of speech).
I don't remember the exact term he used. It may not have been "crappy", but you get the idea.
The point I was trying to make was that if Adyashanti is talking about realizing you are enlightened even when you are having a pretty grouchy morning, that has to be a stage before what Yogani refers to as "living in a fountain of ecstasy". If someone was living in a fountain of ecstasy, they probably wouldn't be having a pretty grouchy morning. I do get what you are saying about enlightenment not having anything to do with experiences or emotions. But on one level it does. If someone is getting angry a lot, or depressed or miserable or grumpy, then there has to be a certain degree of identification with the egoic self for those emotions to be brought about. Someone has to be still buying into the story of limited self, to find something to be angry about, or grumpy about.
As Anthem pointed out above, this buying into the story can happen on quite a subtle level, in the senses of “I’m enlightened” (identification) or “I’m not the one who is angry, that’s just the body/mind” (disassociation).
Christi
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 1:34:49 PM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Hi TI,
Believe me, I know how entertaining this can be.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
This is not entertainment for me. I'm deadly serious. I appreciate clear, concise and congruent teachings and that is not what I get from you-know-who and you-know-what.
Er ....... no I don't.
Really; I don't know who you mean, here, for sure. Reading the rest of your post ... I'm guessing *maybe* Adyashanti {?} ... who, for me, is one of the more clear, concise and congruent teachers I've ever experienced ... so whether one likes him or not, I'd be surprised to hear him described like that ... enough so, that it makes me unsure of my guess ... and so: please just tell me: who do you mean, here?
And, important: I know you're deadly serious, TI ... I seem to recall complimenting you on your sincerity in previous posts in this thread, in fact; my apologies if that line ("I know how entertaining this can be") didn't sit with you the right way; it's never my intention to be disrespectful ... and inherent respect for you, for all, is just what's here.
Someone once asked Adyashanti .... "Why don't people who are trying to wake up ... wake up ... get enlightened?"
Adyashanti offered one of the most poignant answers that I've ever heard ... yet one that "egos everywhere" would likely take major exception to; Adya said:
"Because they're still finding entertainment in the dream to some extent."
I first heard him that this in probably 2003 .... and I remember feeling a flash of insight regarding how deeply this dynamic (finding entertainment in the dream, on some level, in some way .... even at the deepest levels of sub-conscious conditioning) can actually go ..... within the last few weeks.
Thinking mind doesn't always recognize entertainment as entertainment .... it just knows that certain behavior (voraciously ingesting as much enlightenment-related information as possible, in this case) feels good, right and even important.
In retrospect, "entertaining" was probably a poor word to use; it didn't convey what I meant at all, and I see how it could seem disrespectful; I apologize.
I meant what I said to you in a similar context (to what Adya said, above ... in terms of how I meant the word "entertaining") .... and I say it as one who has spent a lot of time doing exactly what you're doing (and I mean that in the sense of "as observation verifies", per the wide variety of informational resources you've quoted from, in this thread alone) ... namely .... voraciously ingesting all possible information which might possibly help bring us closer to the truth.
Because truth ... enlightenment .... is the most important thing to us.
And so, the feeling here, when I wrote that sentence ("how entertaining") ... was one of respect ... combined with "I've so been there!"
Even long after I was completely sure I was no longer there .... I was still there.
My entire intention in expressing what I did to you (that sentence, and the few after it) .... was to help save you some significant time, if possible .... to help you have the experiencing of enlightenment sooner.
Thought-self thinks that thinking about thoughts that others thought will result in what it thinks will be what it thinks of as enlightenment - and so, thinks that this is important to do.
You may have seen certain devices (speedometers, tachometers, etc.) ... that have a "red area" in the upper part of the scale ... after a certain number of RPMs ... one is said to be "redlining" ... and can blow their engine ... which is why the red is there in the first place ... to let the driver know that spending too much time "in the red zone" ... can be detrimental to their objective.
My words were meant as kind of a friendly tap on the shoulder .... "Hey, TI ... that needle is looking pretty far into the red ... it's okay; I used to drive exactly like that do; going fast is fun ... but, Dude, you're gonna blow your engine ... and may not be driving at all for a while ... or ... more likely ........ you'll miss your exit, and have to circling around some more, to get back to it."
I'm not saying "don't read" ... Adyashanti has an interview with Tami Simon from Sounds True, in newer editions of Emptiness Dancing (at the very end, after the book itself ends) ... where he comments on reading, and how most teachers, including him, emphasize that you can't find realization in a book.
But then he says:
"I see that even though I never found realization of truth in any book, because you can't, reading for me has played a significant role. It was double-edged. It got in the way at times -- with concepts and ideas and competing concepts -- but reading has also been an important part of my journey, too."
Mine, too.
Yours, too, it seems.
I've just seen (in this thread alone) far more in the realm of "concepts and ideas and competing concepts" (about levels of consciousness, exactly what nirvikalpa samadhi is, and so on) ... from sources that don't necessarily have any real reason for being accepted as a credible resource, as far as I can tell (example: in one of the your first posts in this thread, you posted a definition of enlightenment, with a link. I checked the link, and tried to find who the quote was from ... but it wasn't a quote ... it was just written by the guy who started that web site, as far as I could tell).
You or I, or anyone reading could do the same ... we are, in fact! <-- These words are on the public web, right now .... who knows ... someone in some other blog or forum may be linking here ..... and saying:
"He's SO obviously right!! And HE'S *So* obviously deluded!!"
........ though I have no idea which one of us they might mean, in those two statements; could go either way, depending upon who's doing the linking .... 
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I noticed you evaded the question about "how long you can remain in nirvikalpa samadhi".
Yep; "evaded on purpose" ... per everything I wrote above.
I don't know if you've noticed .... but every time I say something of my experience with respect to samadhi ... you find something that someone wrote which disagrees with it, or appears to be saying something different than I am ... and you post that information .... and say: "But what about that?"
This probably seems logical to your mind .... minds evaluates, discriminates, discerns, ruminates, divides, defines, delineates, ruminates some more, and concludes ... and presumably .... this is all part of that process for you.
And I truly respect that.
But Dude .... I can't compete, informationally speaking ... with everything ever written, in every possible context, and to every possible reading audience, by everyone from Yogananda to some guy who set up a web site .... in terms of how my experience might compare to what they're saying.
For one, I don't and can't know; neither can you.
But, far more importantly: it doesn't matter.
What if I said:
"Okay ... you got me! I didn't want to say this .... but I can, and do, go into the breathless state, and maintain it at will; and my samadhi is exactly as Yogananda describes."
What then?
Your mind might feel like: "Wow ... so he IS actually enlightened. Wow. I guess maybe I'll listen to what he has to say." (Or, more appropriately: "Wow ... so he IS actually full of crap ..... I guess I won't actually listen to what he has to say." )
Either way ..... how much faster would me giving that answer ... or its opposite ("Y'know, TI ... after reading all those samadhi overviews you so kindly posted, I realize that I wouldn't recognize a samadhi if it strolled over to me and started humping my leg." ) .... help you to experience enlightenment?
It wouldn't; they wouldn't.
And so, I'm attempting to:
A. Break the cycle of this kind of non-helpful back-and-forth.
&
B. Explain why.
I don't mind posting/talking ..... I enjoy it (rather obviously, I think ) ... I just don't want to continue to engage in the aspects of the conversation that cannot be helpful to either of us.
And so, please at least consider what I've said above.
Even talking about my own experience has only limited value, for you; it can only serve as a further pointer/indicator for you, at best.
It sounds like, ultimately (and I'm being serious and respectful, here ... and just going with arising intuition) .... that you're actually looking for who you can trust, regarding information about enlightenment .... because you don't want to delay your own experience of enlightenment by putting your trust in the wrong people/resources.
Does that resonate as true?
If so, it's understandable; I spent a fair amount of time doing that, also; thinking mind conceives of this approach (skepticism and evaluation, as a means of getting to the resources that can help you, by eliminating the ones that can't) and the process as wise, understandable and necessary.
It's not, truly.
A big part of true spirituality/experiencing enlightenment involves opening the door to the experiencing by coming to understand that nothing you've learned to consider valuable or true or real .... is (valuable or true or real).
It's not that you've never learned anything good ... even regarding spirituality/truth, etc. ... you've obviously learned some very good things, from reading; I have, too.
What it's (what I'm saying) about, is that it's about a hundred thousand times more likely that the whole process of finding some information, evaluating it with thinking mind, reaching a conclusion, and feeling you now know something more than you did before .... and think you are therefore "closer to enlightenment", somehow ...
...... will actually delay your experiencing/living from enlightenment ...... rather than help enlightenment to be your experiencing sooner ............. which is the objective, here, for both of us (if it wasn't, I wouldn't be remaining so fully engaged in this conversation).
Why, exactly?
Because the gateway to enlightenment is letting go of thinking mind.
That's why meditation is so important.
Thinking mind doesn't actually believe this; it thinks (literally) that this is a distorted teaching ("C'mon .... how could it be real, if it doesn't involve *me*?", it thinks. )
The reality is: thinking mind can be ignored, regarding anything related to enlightenment ...... and you'll realize enlightenment just fine .... and likely, realize it more directly, and sooner.
Have you ever approached a puppy that growls at you .... and the puppy is deadly serious .... and to you .... it's cute (presuming you like dogs; most of us do ...... if not, pick an animal you like ..... or even a little kid who has his or her defenses up .... say a one or two year old ....) .... and within a few minutes, you're best friends .... and that primal instinct the puppy's system generated, based on its perceived need to protect itself ... is forgotten by you both.
That's what it's like with thinking mind.
It thinks it needs to acquire information ..... because it's always been taught that this is *how* you learn, how you come to know (there's a technical term for the entire approach; that term is: wrong .... literally.) ,,,, *and* .... it thinks it needs to learn who it can trust .... by evaluating .... and concluding .... and *this* approach is "wrong times ten" ... at least).
Let's say you had to run 50 metres as fast as you can ... and doing so will accomplish two things; it will:
A. Save your life.
&
B. Give you all the wealth, power, peace of mind, sex and 10% discount coupons, with no expiry date.
ALL you have to do is run as fast as you can ..... not faster than anyone else ... just as fast as you can.
And so, it's doable ..... and the reward is infinite .... and therefore infinitely motivating, yes?
I mean ..... the only thing better would be ......... actual enlightenment!
And so, I have one important question for you:
Before starting to run this most important race ......... this only important race ..... would you:
A. Tie your shoes in the normal manner?
Or
B. Tie the laces of the two shoes together?
(As in: option B will entail you stumbling, tripping, falling, not actually being able to run.)
I'm guessing "A".
And I realize you don't see this, currently (or you wouldn't be doing it) .... but this entire "challenge statements, evaluate answer, compare with other information, conclude; challenge again, evaluate that answer ....") .... is option B.
I'm attempting to motivate you to go with option *A*.
What does that look like, in terms of your living from enlightenment, ASAP?
It looks like:
*Daily practices
*Self-Pacing as needed
*Maintaining sincerity (bhakti) until the sincerity (bhakti) maintains you (as in: if enlightenment isn't the sole purpose of your life .... and it seems like it basically is, at a certain point, it will be ... in a very low-key, yet utterly pervasive way; your life will be *about* whatever it takes to experiencing living enlightenment .... and rightly so.)
*Reading of enlightement-related things as intuition guides you.
*Letting awareness be present as much as possible.
*Noticing what is true, by observation in your own experience.
Examples:
You can quickly notice, in your own experience, that: thinking about anything, especially the way we've all been conditioned to do ... isn't needed; the right thinking, in the right amount, if it's needed .... happens naturally.
*The right information for you, intuitively "clicks" ... you can be easy with it; your mind doesn't have to growl, or raise the fur on its back .... you can have *fun* and easily know that you'll always know what you need to know, when you need to know it.
*When you're "easy with it all" ..... the warm light of clear intuition .... shines into-as awareness freely and easily. No battle is needed; there's no chance of "not finding it" ..... no chance; the universe doesn't actually work in that way ("survival of the fittest" on all levels, and with regard to all matters) ... at all.
The wise and succinct phrase from the Bible says:
"Be still and know I AM God."
It doesn't say:
"Read everything that's ever been written about God, and listen to people who say they know I AM God, and challenge them, and then think about their answers, and read some more, and then offer evidence that the ones who say they know I AM God, that others who claim to know I AM God have expressed their experiencing of knowing I AM God differently than the first person, in order to see how the first person, although there may be many sets of "that person", in order to approach the search to know I AM God thoroughly enough, and then see how they, that first person, responds to the evidence, and then think further about that person's answers, in combination with the first set of information, which may or may not have been evaluated to be valuable at first, but may now be evaluated to be valuable in light of the new information that is informative useful, and combine your conclusions regarding that information to conclusions regarding any other information you might have found, or might find, about what knowing I AM God actually entails, until, of course, you find some new information, so help you God."
There's a reason for that.
Be Still.
Stillness is alive.
Stillness is real.
Stillness is who you actually are, the creator of everything manifesting and which can be manifested, worlds without end.
Stillness is infinite, stillness is eternal.
Stillness is trying to enlighten your ass.
But you're not letting it ..... you're too busy gathering more information.
And yes, I know .... that may not sound "nice".
But .... TI ........ what IF .... I said or did something that was not so nice that was really going to save your life?
What if we're ever at an AYP Retreat, or whatever, and we're standing there talking ... and a driver loses control of a car ... an it going to run into you at high speed ......... and I grab your arm and forcefully *YANK* you out of the way ... and you don't die, or end up in the hospital for a long time.
Let's even say your arm hurts a bit.
How angry would you be with me?
I'm guessing "not very" would at least be accurate, yes?
You can respond as you respond (if you do) ... in writing ........ but right now, in the privacy of wherever you're sitting and reading this .... just .... open ... and let yourself consider what I'm saying (in this entire post, so far) ... not by thinking .... by opening to intuition.
As I said elsewhere in this thread:
I'm not interested in my enlightenment; I'm interested in yours.
I don't care what you think about my enlightenment (for one, neither "my" nor "enlightenment" can ever be entirely accurate statements, in any case ... per all the discussion in this thread, and elsewhere) .... and it has nothing to do with your enlightenment.
ALL I ever intended to do, in starting this thread, and in joining my voice with Wayne's (and Yogani's per the quote from him, a few posts back in thisn thread) ... is to encourage and invite you (and everyone) to experience living from enlightenment.
Answering your questions and challenges about various point of my experiencing, in comparison to other experiencing and/or theories you have read about, concerning enlightenment ....... is not part of that invitation.
It's not that I mind ........ it's more that I, very literally don't mind.
As In: if I "minded" ... I would engage "mind over here's" conditioned tendency to *love* dialog like this ..... and I would answer every point you raise with not only confirmation from my own experiencing, but with a staggering amount of specific quotes and resources from the most credible possible resources which would highlight, fully and clearly and in a way that essentially anyone would have to acknowledge, that what I say about enlightenment in more credible than what you think others are saying about enlightenment.
In short:
My information can beat up your information.
Our egos would both have a lot of fun, I'm sure ...... and I mean that; if you look around the forum, you'll see several other threads where I've done (or attempted) that sort of thing.
And I have no idea if "my information won" ... I don't actually ever look at it that way .... I'm just saying "responding to quoted resources with other quoted resources and detailed explanations" .... in conditioned-mind's default inclination, over here.
This inclination has only dissipated very recently (wait a minute ... I hear something .... that's weird .... that sounds like an entire group of people loudly exclaiming "it dissipated??" ... all at once; must be my imagination ..... ) ...... strangely, it's dissipated in conjunction with (reliance upon and identification with) thinking-mind dissipating.
"Hm."
And with that ..... I've got to go for a bit.
I will actually respond to your nirvikalpa samadhi question/comment/quote/challenge a bit later; it may be brief (for me, at least ... ) .... but whatever arises to say, it won't be evasive.
However ..... everything I've said in this post is far more important than anything I've ever said about samadhi, and has infinitely more direct bearing on your experiencing/living enlightenment, as soon as possible.
If you let yourself truly "get" this, what happens is: the light of your original awareness can shine through into your experiencing that much more fully, and that much more quickly ... the end result of which is .... enlightenment (which is the beginning creation of living unbound - free from suffering, doubt, partiality and fear; freedom beyond imagination; loving beyond imagination ----- everything you've ever dreamed of having ---- only infinitely better).
And so ......... maybe "sit with" what I've said, a little.
You might just end up glad that you did.
_/\_
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 24 2009 8:44:03 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 9:40:22 PM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I noticed you evaded the question about "how long you can remain in nirvikalpa samadhi". Perhaps you cannot and you are afraid to admit that you still have a long way to go.
Perhaps.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
You may think that you are enlightened according to you-know-who's redefinition of enlightenment, a reductionist bastardization of the term for true self-realisation, but I'm trying to point out to you that you shouldn' fall into that trap.
Thank you; while I disagree with much of what you say above, I sincerely appreciate your sentiment.
I don't think I am enlightened (by the way) ... ... there's truly no "I" here, any longer, nor is there much thinking, and I thought {figure of speech} that we mutually understood, per our extensive dialog on the topic, as well as other posts in this thread, that none of us are camping out on the word "enlightenment" ..... it's simply a general term for the unutterably wonderful benefits experienced by some of us, as a result of practices, inquiry and knowing true nature.
I've actually learned a lot via this thread, and one thing I've learned is: in general, using the term "enlightenment" in reference to oneself, in any way, even if all the applicable qualifiers are included .... there's no me, it's not a fixed level, it's understood enlightenment is a general term for part of an ever-unfolding process, I'm not comparing my experience to anyone else's, I don't feel I've "attained" anything that's not available to and for all of us as our true nature, I was merely attempting to add my voice in extending a positive invitation, etc. etc. etc. ....... the term "enlightenment" (or "liberation", or any other term which implies that there can be actual success from practices, in a major way ) is simply fraught with too much baggage for many people be able to take the simple, offered encouragement to heart (it seems).
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
You seem to think that you've arrived. That is fine. What if you haven't arrived? What if there is actually way more than you-know-who is teaching?
I don't "think I've arrived"; I've been describing my own experiencing ... quite possibly using terminology that might better have been expressed a different way.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
"Nirvikalpa samadhi" .... is the "primal unity free from thought constructs" ......... that's what those words mean.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Here is another link about nirvikalpa samadhi:
[quote]
Sunday
LESSON 266
The Way after Realization
When a yoga guru brings others from darkness into light and from light into Self Realization, he is also strengthening his own golden body. When a satguru makes it easy for his sannyasins to remain in the practice of Self Realization, encouraging them and demanding of them the practice of nirvikalpa samadhi, he helps them hold their forces in check through the power of his golden body.
After nirvikalpa samadhi, the sannyasin has a choice to serve mankind or to wait for mankind to unfold into the consciousness that he has attained. This is called being a bodhisattva or upadeshi, one who serves, or an arahat or nirvani, one who waits. The golden body begins to grow through service and by bringing others into enlightenment as a bodhisattva, or through the constant practice of nirvikalpa samadhi while living a strictly secluded life as an arahat, only mixing with those of his own level of realization.
The sahasrara chakra at the top of the head and the ajna chakra at the brow, or the third eye, are the two controlling force centers of the soul body. These force centers become the two lowest chakras of the yoga master's new golden body, svarnasharira, as this body begins to build after his first nirvikalpa samadhi.
The usual experience before nirvikalpa samadhi is for the aspirant to become a knower of the Self. This could occur at any time during his training. In order to attain this experience of "touching into the Self," he must have a complete balance of all odic and actinic forces within him. A noted change in his life pattern often occurs after he becomes a knower of the Self, for the soul body has become released into orbit, and he has then a subsuperconscious control of this body. In other words, the odic-force tie has been released. This body has quickly matured. Then, if practicing contemplation as prescribed by his satguru and finally working out the various karmic binds or holds in the lower odic force field with the help of the guru, he attains complete Self Realization, or nirvikalpa samadhi. Then the golden body, svarnasharira, is born through the merging of the forces of the pituitary and the pineal gland, setting the sahasrara into a constant spinning motion. This constant spinning motion generates the force which propels the yoga adept back into nirvikalpa samadhi. Each time he goes into nirvikalpa samadhi he intensifies a little the spinning movement of this chakra, unfolding it a little more, and as this occurs, the golden body begins to build.
When the yoga adept touches into the Self and becomes a knower of the Self, attains nirvikalpa samadhi, becomes Self Realized, yoga powers come to him. These yoga powers are often renounced, depending upon the rule of the order to which he belongs, whether it be a teaching order or an order of hermits. According to the need, a power is developed. The powers that a yogi can use are as many as the petals within the sahasrara chakra. They are 1,008. These powers are conceived through the nadis -- small, elastic-like psychic nerve currents extending out into and through the aura of the body. The nadis work in conjunction with the chakras, and with the major currents of the body, ida, pingala and sushumna.
Realizing Parasiva gives you great power, but to use that power very sparingly or not at all is the greater thing to do, because the power itself works of its own accord. If you have powers, siddhis that are unfolded, it is best not to consciously use them. You can demonstrate to yourself to be sure you have them, but these siddhis are all connected with devonic forces that will work totally for righteousness without your demonstrating them. That is why no one wants to come up against a rishi. Similarly, a good king does not use his power. He makes everything flourish without appearing to be powerful. His greater power happens in unseen ways.
Remember, when the kundalini force becomes strong within you during a meditation, just sit and be aware that you are aware -- a blissful state called kaif in Shum, the language of meditation. You will feel very positive and experience yourself as a great big ball of energy. When the energy begins to wane, try to absorb it into every cell of your external body, then continue your meditation exactly where you left off. In this way you will build a strong, disciplined nerve system and subconscious mind. This will lead you naturally onto the next inner plateau, then to the next and the next.
Never allow yourself to be complacent in your spiritual attainments. Always continue to strive. Even rishis, swamis and yogis who have totally realized Parasiva continue to work on themselves from within themselves. They don't let down, because if they did it would be many years before they had the next experience of the timelessness, formlessness, spacelessness of the unspeakable Parasiva experience. The message, therefore, is, at the beginning of meditation and at the end, keep striving. Don't turn back, but proceed with confidence.
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...ws_ch-38.htm
Somewhat interesting .... but ultimately, I feel this article does a disservice.
It makes it seem as though there are requirements where there aren't any, and it makes it sound as though there are some very lofty levels and powers in connection with enlightenment, that limited mind can easily use as a yardstick to evaluate its own enlightenment, and/or that of others .... or lack thereof.
Enlightenment ... or anything else we may want to use as a term for the permanent dissolution of belief in, or reliance upon, any form of individual idea-self .... is simply how awareness/consciousness/being actually *is*.
Limited mind creates mental form ... it's what limited mind does ... and so, would be likely to use information such as the article above, to evaluate its concepts, and possibly even its experiences.
Ultimately, this dynamic (mind creating mental forms, based on memory, imagination and its evaluation of information) is (pun fully intended) self-regulating .... if limited mind isn't ready to release yet ... the light of pure awareness we each and all actually are now can't shine through yet, and experience can't radically change yet.
That's all.
Here's an article which highlights one of the key yogic paths (Kashmir Shaivism) that I resonate with, including where and how nirvikalpa samadhi fits into overall experiencing, and what the general parameters of the awareness-experience are.
As Yogani has said:
We favor experience over terms.
Maybe I don't experience nirvikalpa samadhi or sahaja samadhi.
I experience what I experience .... I don't really care what it's called, or in what language.
What I call nirvikalpa samadhi is simply awareness free of attachment to thought and free of experiencing the distortion of the artificial lens of subject-object-perception.
You may be correct in saying that Kirtanman doesn't experience nirvikalpa samadhi; it would be much more accurate to say that every so often, nirvikalpa samadhi experiences Kirtanman.
Regarding the breathless state: this has surprisingly increased during meditation, in recent times ... but true breathlessness doesn't last super-long .... but still a lot longer than I ever would have thought possible, back when I was thinking.
I've never timed it; doesn't feel pertinent ..... realistically, maybe a handful of minutes, clock time, maximum .... when the breathless state is happening (which I do not equate with the state of nirvikalpa samadhi, by the way ... thought-free awareness happens when the physical body is still breathing; awareness is always breathless; all breathing in manifesting within awareness; not something "I" am doing) ... usually it's more like maybe thirty seconds, with a very short, mild breath cycle (maybe a second) ... an then, another thirty seconds, or minute or so.
Sometimes, it will happen for a handful of short "rounds" .... ten seconds breathless .... one second breath ... ten seconds breathless .... other times, more like thirty seconds or a minute ... other times ... maybe as much as two to three minutes, between any kind of breath; it's very interesting ... the stillness/expansiveness of awareness is very clear, for that eternal period of a few minutes.
As far as I can tell, there wasn't a direct connection between what I'm calling nirvikalpa samadhi with the breathless state ... or with either of those states with what I'm terming "enlightenment" (full, permanent dissolution of the idea self; living spontaneously as loving, empty awareness).
I like Daniel Odier's (tantric author) way of phrasing the way breathing and samadhi relate: "the quasi-absence of breathing".
That's been my experience of how it is.
I first experienced what I'm calling nirvikalpa samadhi probably close to two years ago.
The breathless state maybe almost that long ago, as well.
Both increased .... as did samadhi in daily awareness.
I'm not sure if you understand what I've been saying (with respect to what I'm about to say) .... but what I'm terming enlightenment is "living la vida samadhi" ..... living from samadhi; as samadhi .... it never stops .... there's no longer a "Kirtanman" to be in or out of it (and so, if you want to be skeptical about an experience of mine, or say it's not possible, or find a bunch of information which says I'm outta my freakin' mind ..... there's the big one, right there!)
And ....... I *am* outta my freakin' mind ....... *finally*!!
It's very nice.
I recommend it to all.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 24 2009 9:43:26 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 10:42:05 PM
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quote:
is simply fraught with too much baggage for many people be able to take the simple, offered encouragement to heart (it seems).
Hi Kirtanman,
I hope that doesn't discourage you from encouraging which is a wonderful thing from my perspective. The delivery just needs to fit the mailbox. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 10:52:54 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
When Yogani writes of enlightenment involving ecstasy, he's trying to give a general sense of how wonderful enlightenment is ... using one of the few terms that might serve to give limited mind any sense of what enlightenment might be like, in any way.
But Yogani does say that ecstasy is not only one of the milestones en-route to enlightenment, but that it is also an essential ingredient in the enlightenment equation, and that full realization cannot occur without it.
Hm ... "dunno". Maybe ask Yogani, if you feel you need further clarification.
My point was basically: if someone is using "ecstasy" as some sort of a yardstick (i.e. "Well, I'm/you're not experiencing a state of ecstasy 24/7, so therefore, I'm/you're not enlightened) .... this is likely to keep limited mind in place, rather than to facilitate its final release.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
That's why it truly isn't pertinent to talk much about enlightenment, other than very generally ........ anyone not experiencing it can't understand it,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Is this a recent observation that you've made.
VERY.
Funny you should mention it!!
Seriously: some *aspects* of enlightenment (like the "levels and models" discussion, in Enlightenment Milestones) are fine to talk about, and potentially mutually educational, it seems.
However, when someone (let's call him .... "Kirtanman" ....) says:
"Hey, everyone .... enlightenment is great!"
And the main response is: "No you're not!"
... "one wonders" if there might not be a better way to offer that same encouragement .....
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I don't remember the exact term he used. It may not have been "crappy", but you get the idea.
The point I was trying to make was that if Adyashanti is talking about realizing you are enlightened even when you are having a pretty grouchy morning, that has to be a stage before what Yogani refers to as "living in a fountain of ecstasy".
quote:
Originally written by Yogani
enlightenment is not some distant imaginary perfection, we each will find it to be much closer to what we are experiencing right now. It is very near, and with daily practices, getting nearer all the time. It is ... Now.
**
Does this mean an enlightened person can be grumpy?
**
Everyone has a choice on how they conduct their life -- both teachers and students. The enlightened and the nearly enlightened.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
If someone was living in a fountain of ecstasy, they probably wouldn't be having a pretty grouchy morning.
Please see quote from Yogani, above.
The point I was making, re: Adya's statement is "crappy day" is unlikely; "crappy moment" ... maybe ..... but it's a totally different experience than when thinking mind is running the show.
Body-minds react; emotions and conditioned responses arise, in the same way that if an itch occurs, scratching happens ..... but there's no thinking about it, and hence, it dissolves almost instantly, and/or there's no attachment to it.
Adya has also said: "You get sick, there are rough days at work, whatever .... but you don't care."
Which was his context and point ... and Yogani's, I would say.
I've also read Nisargadatta's teaching on this .... (and seen it; watch him on YouTube ... he's clearly from the "yelling and emphatically gesturing" school of Advaita! ) ......... and they, and I, are all saying the same thing:
Without attachment to, or undue belief in conditioned mind/ego ... and with it therefore arising a very, very small percentage of the time it used to ... and with the awareness that it has nothing to do with the true self (the experiencing awareness), and the inability for belief in it to any longer arise ...... it's all a whole different ballgame.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I do get what you are saying about enlightenment not having anything to do with experiences or emotions. But on one level it does. If someone is getting angry a lot, or depressed or miserable or grumpy, then there has to be a certain degree of identification with the egoic self for those emotions to be brought about. Someone has to be still buying into the story of limited self, to find something to be angry about, or grumpy about.
100% agreed ... and no enlightened teacher I know of, including Adyashanti, Yogani or Nisargadatta, has ever equated enlightenment with that type of conditioned response/ego .... and I'm quite confident they would each agree with your statement, above.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As Anthem pointed out above, this buying into the story can happen on quite a subtle level, in the senses of “I’m enlightened” (identification) or “I’m not the one who is angry, that’s just the body/mind” (disassociation).
Christi
Yes, again ... agreed.
And, it's likely difficult or impossible to truly be able to tell if anyone else is engaged in identification and dissociation .... or enlightenment (or whatever you want to call the non-limited-self experience we're discussing).
In my own experiencing, now ... there's simply no ongoing attachment; there may be conditioned reaction of some type for a moment ... but it does go with the body-mind, in the same way that, say, a headache might be upsetting when thinking-mind feels like the self ... but when a certain amount of inner silence has been opened into ... events like that aren't upsetting.
Basically: as yogis and yoginis experience relating to body with less and less attachment, in the awareness I'm referring to/from ... there's relating to limited mind with essentially no attachment, as well.
And this is another reason why it's not pertinent to really try to describe it:
Others tend to question and challenge (which is something I personally don't mind; "conditioning here" is truly very comfortable discussing "whatever" .... and at length .... this thread being a fine example indeed ... ) ... and the conversation begins to go in circles, in a way that's quite possibly not helpful for anyone (specifically those who are .... what? ... considering accepting the invitation?)
It seems like this:
I say "Hey, everyone; c'mon over and enjoy this great banquet! It's fun, it's free ... and it's your banquet, too!"
And responses range from:
"You're not having a banquet!"
to
"Well, it says here that 'there ain't no such thing as a free lunch' ... what about that?"
to
"Well, you could be deluding yourself into thinking you're having a banquet ...."
to which I respond (in a somewhat muffled manner, due to talking around a piece of succulent escargot that I nabbed from a passing serving tray) ... "Mmph ..mm .. yeah .. could be ....!!")
And then I figure ... Oh, what's the harm .... I'll give a little more detail ....
... and I upload some pictures, maybe even a little video of the festivities ... and a Google Map ...
And hear:
"Google maps aren't like that; the roads don't look that way .... see, this other banquet-giver posted a Google map .... and his looks completely different ... so you aren't having a banquet!"
I shrug, nab some non-alcoholic champagne (just my preference; there's the "real stuff", too, for anyone who wants any ... there's .... well, everything ....) ... and move back out on to the dance floor ... smiling over my shoulder .... "It is 24/7 ... all of 'em ... so get here when you like .... and take your time; heck, take mine too ... I certainly don't need it any more!!"
And ... truly seriously: one thing I've truly "gotten" recently ... and in part, due to this thread ..... the only motivation here, now really is to "invite" .... when idea-self dissolve, the inviting naturally arises .... it's just true; it's just what's happening ... and I have no idea if this is "enlightenment" ... and candidly, I don't care; there aren't any ideas about anything, any longer ... including the one who used to think, and think about what others thought, and what-not.
However, whatever this shift can be called .... it's true, it's good and it's beautiful .... and there's a very deep felt sense that AYP had a very direct hand in helping to bring it (this experiencing) about.
And there's a very deep felt sense that you ... the reader of these words ... whoever you may be ... can join me ... join all of us who are "here", wherever "here" may be (whatever you might call it) .... and those of you who are willing, can get here quickly now ... and when you do .... you'll naturally feel the arising of the action (not the desire or intention; just the action) of inviting and including all, too.
Wholeheartedly,
_/\_
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 25 2009 12:46:38 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 12:21:24 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
Ok. You win. :) I'm not going to say anything bad about your personal friend and mentor, Adyashanti. Suffice it to say that his teachings are not for me. If I want to read about Zen, I will read this little book I have. At least it is consistent. And if I want to refresh myself on clever non-dualism, I will consult Tolle. :) And if I want to stretch my brain I will remember Hegelian dialectics..
Lately I'm thinking stillness is not what will enlighten me because stillness is pretty black to me. I'm thinking that merging into and beyond the light will. :)
You are right! Your version of nivikalpa samadhi from that link and my version are probably not the same. In my version, you actually die, your heart quits beating and you can stay like that for many days if you wanted to. Experiences count more than words. You said it. You must have been a lawyer in a previous life... paid by the word..:)
This is yet another definition of enlightenment, and I rather like it because it refers specifically to light:
quote:
We drop off the intellect. We drop off the instinctive actions and reactions. The only thing we want to keep is the physical body and the body of the soul. And that is the path that we are on. And when this begins to happen, when the beautiful, refined body of light and the physical body merge as one, we see light all the way through the physical body, right into the feet, into the hands, through the head, through the torso, through the spine. We're just walking in a sea of light.
This inner light is so beautiful. All day long my head has been filled with light. It feels that if I were to reach up and put both hands around the top of my head, there wouldn't be a head there. It feels like there is nothing there. It just goes on and on and on into endless space, as I look back up within the head. When I look into the back of my neck, I see an array of, they look like, wires, and these, of course, are the nerve currents that run through the spinal cord. They're all bright and active and scintillating, drawing energy from the central source of energy. And, of course, if you looked into the central source of energy, what would you see? You would see light coming out of nothing. That's what it looks like, light coming out of nothing.
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-02.html
Do you see that too?
In your awakening, did you not realize any of the the bolded characteristics in the following quote?:
quote:
The only change that occurs is the awakening of the sahasrara chakra and the perspective that a mind has which has undone itself, transcended itself in formless Being and Non-Being, and then returned to the experiences of form. The experiences are all still there, but never again are they binding. The fire or life energy, which rises in the normal person high enough to merely digest the food eaten, rises to the top of the enlightened man's head, burns through a seal there, and his consciousness has gone with it. He is definitely different from an ordinary person. He died. He was reborn. He is able and capable of knowing many things without having to read books or listen to others speak their knowledge at him. His perceptions are correct, unclouded and clear. His thoughts manifest properly in all planes of consciousness -- instinctive, intellectual and superconscious or spiritual. He lives now, fully present in all he does.
The internal difference that makes a soul a jnani is that he knows who he is and who you are. He knows Truth, and he knows the lie. Another difference is that he knows his way around within the inner workings of the mind. He can travel here and there with his own 747, without extraneous external conveyances. He knows the goings-on in far-off places. He is consciously conscious of his own karma and dharma and that of others. For him there is no apartness, due to his attainment within the chakras previously described. His only gift to others, to the world, would be blessings, an outpouring of energy to all beings from the higher planes where he resides. It is the jnani, the enlightened being, who sees beyond duality and knows the oneness of all. He is the illumined one, filled with light, filled with love. He sees God everywhere, in all men. He is the one who simply is and who sees no differences. That is his difference.
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-01.html
For, if you were sincerely trying to help me realize, then should you not be able to know my karma and past lives, where I am at now and simply perscribe the right formula tailored for my current state of attainment? Isn't that what these monks are saying?
And finally, here is a very interesting little bit from those same celibate monks that live in Hawaii:
quote:
Saturday
LESSON 41
Superconscious Signposts
When your awareness is in superconsciousness, you see yourself as pure life force flowing through people, through trees, through everything. I have seen myself, in a certain state of samadhi, as pure life force flowing through a jungle, through trees, through plants, through water, through air. That is superconsciousness. It is so permanent. It is so real. Nothing could touch it. Nothing could hurt it. In this state we see the external world as a dream, and things begin to look transparent to us. People begin to look transparent. This is superconsciousness. When we look at a physical object and we begin to see it scintillating in light as it begins to become transparent, this is superconsciousness. It is a very beautiful and natural state to be in.
Occasionally, in deep meditation we see the head filled with an intense light, and we know that that is the natural state of man.
This is superconsciousness: when we can look at another person and know what he is thinking and how he is feeling and how his subconscious is programmed. While we are looking at him, all of a sudden he can be seen in a past life, or in the future, or in the eternity of the moment. You are so naturally, without striving, in the superconscious area of the mind. No technique can give you these experiences that you unfold into as you walk the path toward merger. You come right into them, and the experience is how you are. Occasionally, when you close your eyes in meditation, you may see the face of your guru or some divine being that possibly once lived on Earth, and now just the shell of his subtle body remains vibrating in the ethers. You see superconscious beings while in the superconscious area of the mind. Occasionally you clairaudiently hear voices singing, music playing, just as Beethoven heard his wonderful symphonies that he recorded like a scribe. It is the superconscious mind again, so near, so real, so vibrant.
And when you are in contemplation, so engrossed in the energies within you
-- within the physical body and the energy within that, and that within that -- that you become totally engrossed in the peace of the central source of all energy, that too is superconsciousness. Being on the brink of Self Realization, having lost consciousness of the physical body and of being a mind, you are only conscious of a vast, bluish white light. You get into this through going into the clear white light and out through the other side of it. Then you come into pure consciousness. It is a vast, pure, pale bluish white light -- endless, endless inner space. It is just on the brink of the Absolute, just on the brink of the fullness of Self Realization. When you are in this beautiful, blissful state of pure consciousness, you are barely conscious that you are there, because to have a consciousness of being conscious, you have to be conscious of another thing.
These are some of the wonderful signposts on the path, all within your immediate grasp in this life, just as the ability to play the vina or the flute beautifully in this life is within your immediate grasp. It takes practice, following the rules and then more practice.
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-06.html
Perhaps you have attained superconsciousness?
One last comment, if you say that you have no more ego, then who am I communicating with? Who is it that desires?
Again, thanks for your time.
:)
TI
Truth is where you find it. Truth is not validated by it's source. Even a fool can speak truth and a wise man can utter nonsense.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish and pretty soon you're competing with him at the same fishing hole.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 12:27:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
quote:
is simply fraught with too much baggage for many people be able to take the simple, offered encouragement to heart (it seems).
Hi Kirtanman,
I hope that doesn't discourage you from encouraging which is a wonderful thing from my perspective. The delivery just needs to fit the mailbox.
Hi Anthem,
No discouragement here .... just a happy sense that this entire dialog is potentially a good thing .... including the "talking about how we're talking about things" part.
"The delivery just needs to fit the mailbox."
That's one of those "could be pertinent on several levels, if it's allowed to be" kinda statements.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 01:20:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi Kirtanman,
Ok. You win. :)
That's funny, TI .... I literally almost wrote those same words to you, earlier today!
No particular reason I didn't; it just didn't happen.
It seems, though, that maybe we experience each other's communication styles and each other's perspective ... in a similar way.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I'm not going to say anything bad about your personal friend and mentor, Adyashanti.
Okay.
Just please know:
I don't care if you do.
I don't have any attachment to positive or negative expressions concerning Adyashanti, or anyone else.
I presume everyone here just offers their honest perspective and experiences regarding a certain teacher; I simply do the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Suffice it to say that his teachings are not for me. If I want to read about Zen, I will read this little book I have. At least it is consistent. And if I want to refresh myself on clever non-dualism, I will consult Tolle. :) And if I want to stretch my brain I will remember Hegelian dialectics..
Sounds like a plan; enjoy!
(Jeez; you don't like Tolle, either? )
What's so unattractive about the plainly-spoken experience of non-duality?
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
You are right! Your version of nivikalpa samadhi from that link and my version are probably not the same.
Ya know .... I noticed that, too!
Hey .... we agree on something!
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
In my version, you actually die, your heart quits beating and you can stay like that for many days if you wanted to. Experiences count more than words. You said it. You must have been a lawyer in a previous life... paid by the word..:)
Even worse, actually .......
... *Marketing* ...!!
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
This is yet another definition of enlightenment, and I rather like it because it refers specifically to light:
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
We drop off the intellect. We drop off the instinctive actions and reactions. The only thing we want to keep is the physical body and the body of the soul. And that is the path that we are on. And when this begins to happen, when the beautiful, refined body of light and the physical body merge as one, we see light all the way through the physical body, right into the feet, into the hands, through the head, through the torso, through the spine. We're just walking in a sea of light.
A couple years back, I had some stuff like this.
I see the dropping of "instinctive actions and reactions" as "enlightenmentary-sleight-of-hand" ... every body-mind still has them, even the enlightened ones; awareness is just free from feeling like they're "mine" ... because the idea of "mine" is gone.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
This inner light is so beautiful. All day long my head has been filled with light. It feels that if I were to reach up and put both hands around the top of my head, there wouldn't be a head there. It feels like there is nothing there. It just goes on and on and on into endless space, as I look back up within the head. When I look into the back of my neck, I see an array of, they look like, wires, and these, of course, are the nerve currents that run through the spinal cord.
The description is a bit "Alien vs. Predator" for me, but hey ... nice scenery, nonetheless.
I maybe forgot to mention .... you do/likely will pass through a lot of scenery on the way here .... to what I'm talking about; to what Yogani is talking about; it's just not that interesting ... but it is when it happens.
I'm not kidding when I say yoga gives you experiences better than the combination of the best sex and the best drugs *combined* ... I've posted about it (and yes, I know what I'm talking about, per comparison to those two "activity sets") ... all that "flamboyant ecstasy" is still at the level of temporary experience and form though; it's available ... it's just not interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
They're all bright and active and scintillating, drawing energy from the central source of energy. And, of course, if you looked into the central source of energy, what would you see? You would see light coming out of nothing. That's what it looks like, light coming out of nothing.
It's even better from the standpoint of being the nothing, emanating the light; the first one you see ..... the second one ..... you feel.
It's amazing .... but it's still just an experience.
I spent a fair amount of time in meditation, getting how consciousness actually emanates from ground-of-being ... really experiencing the levels of manifestation and return.
It was worthwhile on one level; not even that thrilling, though ... I was beyond being thrilled as much, as that point ... as having a sincere sense of "Cool ... now we get to see how it *works*."
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
In your awakening, did you not realize any of the the bolded characteristics in the following quote?:
The only change that occurs is the awakening of the sahasrara chakra and the perspective that a mind has which has undone itself, transcended itself in formless Being and Non-Being, and then returned to the experiences of form. The experiences are all still there, but never again are they binding.
This one, yes; it's what I've been pointing to in different words ... I've just been talking about the resulting shift in experiencing of each moment ... rather than the initial experience, which was some time back.
The "unbinding" didn't happen all at once, or immediately, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
The fire or life energy, which rises in the normal person high enough to merely digest the food eaten, rises to the top of the enlightened man's head, burns through a seal there, and his consciousness has gone with it. He is definitely different from an ordinary person. He died. He was reborn.
Okay; yeah ... energetically/figuratively ... sure.
I talked about exactly this with Metta, I think it was, recently.
I just described it in less flamboyant terms.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
He is able and capable of knowing many things without having to read books or listen to others speak their knowledge at him. His perceptions are correct, unclouded and clear. His thoughts manifest properly in all planes of consciousness -- instinctive, intellectual and superconscious or spiritual. He lives now, fully present in all he does.
I would say so; though I realize opinions may well vary.
It *feels* that way, though; the essence of all spiritual teachings are known in experiencing .... that's why the sense of not needing the information arises; all we need to know is what we are, now.
And ... I'll need to answer the rest of this, later.
Whether or not you agree with my comments, I hope the description of my experiences is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 25 2009 01:24:49 AM |
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WayneWirs
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 2:14:18 PM
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ENLIGHTENMENT VS MIRACLES- (I swore I wasn't going to get involved with this, but I hate to see it continue. You guys are so smart, so well read, that you have TOO much information--you're making something so simple into this big convoluted, mystical, magical, confusing mess...)
To Tibetan_Ice: I love the fact that you said, "I am deadly serious." I believe it takes THAT kind of a commitment to wake up. For myself, I gave away everything I owned that wouldn't fit inside an old RV, hit the road, left my family and friends, lived off savings while I traveled and wrote and contemplated and focused on the my spiritual development, and--when I only had about 6 months worth of savings left--said "F*ck it, I failed," and completely gave up.
I thought, "I've got about 6 months left to live, so, since I didn't find inner peace, I'm just going clean up this life to help make my next life better." As soon as I surrendered like that (read, "deadly serious"), my three-week awakening began. (see the "Transition" series on my blog for more info on this.)
To Everyone: If you want to wake up, you've got to stop playing games and get serious.
It's not about GAINING. It's not about ADDING. It's not about LEARNING. It's not about THINKING.
It's about QUITTING. It's about LETTING GO. It's about DROPPING.
You wake up by QUESTIONING every ASSUMPTION you have ABOUT YOURSELF. You wake up by LOOKING and saying, "Oh, that's not right. I was mistaken. How could I have been so stupid?"
Now I'm no expert in Yoga, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zen, Gnostic Christianity, or Kabbalah, but I do know what I mean by enlightenment:
Enlightenment is when you no longer identify with (think of yourself as) the personal self.
It's as simple as that. Everything else is just BS--just more noise, more fantasy, more illusion...more crap for you to cling to and TRY TO ACHIEVE. F*ck that! You don't need it! It's not about ADDING to yourself. It's about REVEALING yourself. It's about DROPPING all the dirt and muck and garbage that has been accumulating on you since the day you were born.
In Zen (maybe Buddhism?), they call waking up "walking through the Gateless Gate." When the personal self vaporizes, you are able to walk through what seemed an impenetrable barrier.
Before enlightenment, it feels like there is this huge wall (the personal self) blocking you from realization. After enlightenment, you look back at that wall and see there is nothing there (the wall--the personal self--was a mirage): The Gateless Gate.
Does this mean (re: Christi), once one drops the personal self, that they stop growing? Not at all. But here's the rub...Does my (Wayne's) future growth matter to me? Not one bit. Why? Because there is no personal self. I could care less. I am just this moment talking. I am just these fingers typing. I am...what is happening right now.
Can I hold my breath for 24 hours? Nope. Can I walk on water? Nope. Can I heal the sick? Nope. Can I teleport myself into Tibetan_Ice's house and speak to him in Swahili? Nope. Will I ever be able to do these amazing things? Who knows? (Doubt it.) But miracles have nothing to do with enlightenment, and focusing on the miracles will cause you nothing but frustration.
Many of the posts on this thread has been confusing TWO DIFFERENT THINGS: Enlightenment with Miracles. Many people can perform "miracles"--telekinesis, ESP, reiki, etc. Most ARE NOT enlightened (they still believe in--and act from--their personal story). Most LIVING (verifiable) enlightened people CANNOT perform miracles. Enlightenment and Miracles are two separate and distinct things--they are not linked.
When an enlightened person hits his thumb with a hammer, his "perpetual ecstasy" flies out the window with his swearing, howling and jumping up and down. Perpetual Ecstasy? A bedtime story told to children that has somehow run amok. Stomp on the toe of anyone who claims to live in "perpetual ecstasy" and see if you still believe them.
By focusing on the miracles, you are focusing on mysticism. On a belief--whether they are miracles of Advanced Yoga, Kundalini, Christianity, Buddhism, Shintoism, Judaism, Islam. If you haven't experienced first-hand any of the miracles mentioned in these belief systems, then you are just GUESSING that those miracles are true. Maybe they are true, but you really don't KNOW.
I get pissed off at "spiritual teachers" who focus on the miraculous. Why? Because gullible students that hope to achieve these miracles waste years and years of their lives in pursuit of something that even their "teachers" can't perform for them. Stop wasting your time with "miracles."
You have to ask yourself, "What part of me WANTS to believe in these miracles? What part of me wants to be able to PERFORM them?"
I don't. I am this moment. I could care less about miracles. I will never suffer again because only the personal self suffers and Wayne Wirs (the personal self) doesn't exist anymore. I am free of all the drama. I am alive--more alive than I have ever been. What more can I ask for? Miracles? Who needs them? More importantly, who WANTS them?
I am Wayne, not Wayne Wirs. I am a sound (Wayne) happening right now, not some old and dusty adventure story (Wayne Wirs).
If you want to wake up, then forget the miracles. Who in their right mind cares about miracles? Your ego does (your first name and last name), but not YOU (the SOUND of your first name).
Most spiritually "knowledgeable" people (like on this forum) tend to focus on their PHD while they are still in junior high. You remember that kid in school who was so smart that he skipped a few grades? He missed the prom, he never had his first kiss until college, he never fit in. He was smart, but he wasn't wise (experienced). Forget the miracles. Focus on dropping the personal self. What happens after that is just gravy.
Practice seeing your Ego Story (Wayne Wirs) and your Ego Gorilla (your self-centered fears and desires) and start DISTANCING YOURSELF FROM THEM. The clearer you see them, the easier they will be to drop.
Once you drop them (the Story and the Gorilla), you'll automatically wake up.
Once you wake up, you'll never suffer again--and I guarantee you, once you wake up, you won't give a damn about miracles either.
And that's all I have to say about that subject. Take care. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 3:42:38 PM
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Hi Wayne,
Welcome to the forum
Christi |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 5:37:14 PM
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Hi Wayne,
Welcome to the forum!! I've read a lot of the stuff on your site...inspirational story...and great photographs too |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 5:39:12 PM
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(((HIGH FIVE))) Wayne .... Welcome to the Forum!!
And hey ... if you do end up with only one post here, period .... I'm glad it's this one.
To ALL: I agree with everything Wayne says; it's my experience, too; that's why I dove into this dialog in the first place ... to add my voice and invitation to Wayne's.
Conditioning here (the "sound of Kirtanman") is just "nicer" than the sound of Wayne ... and nicer is not always better -- and it makes for much longer conversations.
Sometimes telling is like it is ... like it really is ... is what's needed .... and Wayne did just that; thank you, Wayne.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
"Once you wake up, you'll never suffer again--and I guarantee you, once you wake up, you won't give a damn about miracles either.
~Wayne Wirs
"True that!"
~Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 25 2009 5:41:26 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 6:56:11 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
Seriously: some *aspects* of enlightenment (like the "levels and models" discussion, in Enlightenment Milestones) are fine to talk about, and potentially mutually educational, it seems.
However, when someone (let's call him .... "Kirtanman" ....) says:
"Hey, everyone .... enlightenment is great!"
And the main response is: "No you're not!"
... "one wonders" if there might not be a better way to offer that same encouragement .....
Or, it could be more like someone (let's call him Kirtanman again) says, "I'm enlightened",
and the main response is: "there isn't really a place where you can make that claim from"
and: "there isn't really a person who could make that claim anyway",
then I think that's some good advice. It might just be a semantic thing, but sometimes semantics are important.
From where I'm at right now, both those statements seem true.
You might be able to take some solice in the fact that Jesus Christ was given a much harder time when he said he was the Son of God. Luckily we are living in more enlightened times now, and you just get the third degree on an internet forum.
Christi |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 6:58:44 PM
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Hi Wayne :)
Welcome to the forum.
Thank you very much for your comments. I really appreciate it.
quote:
It's about QUITTING. It's about LETTING GO. It's about DROPPING.
Not that this is the only valid method, but, I believe it is about trying your absolute hardest for as long as you can and then LETTING GO, QUITTING, GIVING UP. That seems to be the pattern for Tolle, Adyashanti and many others. For example, before Adyashanti's realization he had spent an entire day pushing himself and his consciousness/energy/willpower by focusing on what he was currently in the near presence of, saying "This is a chair", "This is a table", "This is a wall". Adya says that by the end of the day, he felt like he had literally overloaded his consciousness.
There are many mentions of training your attention to be continuous, 24/7, because that is the first part of it. And, this is very hard to do. It requires great willpower, strength and energy. I believe that that is the purpose of mindfulness. For example, now I believe that the first night when I did not sleep at all and saw the inside of my body as a field of bright light, it was because I had tried 'smiling' continuously for as long as could throughout the previous day.
So, you make a massive effort. Then, when you have given it your best and there is nothing left to give, you let go and give up. You need the effort and determination to make the carrot swing away from you. Then, when you stop, the carrot swings back and pops into your mouth. If you make a little effort, you might catch a nip of the carrot... It depends on effort.
Perhaps you will agree.
quote:
Enlightenment is when you no longer identify with (think of yourself as) the personal self.
It's as simple as that. Everything else is just BS--just more noise, more fantasy, more illusion...more crap for you to cling to and TRY TO ACHIEVE. F*ck that! You don't need it! It's not about ADDING to yourself. It's about REVEALING yourself. It's about DROPPING all the dirt and muck and garbage that has been accumulating on you since the day you were born.
In Zen (maybe Buddhism?), they call waking up "walking through the Gateless Gate." When the personal self vaporizes, you are able to walk through what seemed an impenetrable barrier.
Before enlightenment, it feels like there is this huge wall (the personal self) blocking you from realization. After enlightenment, you look back at that wall and see there is nothing there (the wall--the personal self--was a mirage): The Gateless Gate.
Does this mean (re: Christi), once one drops the personal self, that they stop growing? Not at all. But here's the rub...Does my (Wayne's) future growth matter to me? Not one bit. Why? Because there is no personal self. I could care less. I am just this moment talking. I am just these fingers typing. I am...what is happening right now.
[quote]
Very nice description.
Thank you for this :)
[quote]
You have to ask yourself, "What part of me WANTS to believe in these miracles? What part of me wants to be able to PERFORM them?"
Exactly. On the way up, miracles can be a hinderence but they may also appear as sign posts post to tell you you are on the right path. Miracles also help shatter your ego, especially when you take part in one!
However, after the ego dissolves there is nobody left to desire or perform feats that would gratify the ego. If someone were to claim credit for any psychic feats or miracles, then this would indicate that the ego had not been dissolved or surrendered to God (or whatever you'd like to call it). However, miracles can be the passing of the divine flow through your open gate in order to influence and affect the forms in creation. Simply put, God works through you.
Again, thank you for posting. I wish you all the best.
:)
TI
Oh, is it you that has the two black African tall and pointy warrior shields and spears hanging in your living room or is that Kirtanman.. ? next to the Yogi Tea cup.. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 7:17:18 PM
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Hi TI,
quote:
However, miracles can be the passing of the divine flow through your open gate in order to influence and affect the forms in creation. Simply put, God works through you.
This is my experience also. There seems to come a point where people begin to become a channel of divine love flowing into the world. This is the real miracle and is there for everyone to see.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Nov 25 2009 7:26:47 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 8:37:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Or, it could be more like someone (let's call him Kirtanman again) says, "I'm enlightened",
and the main response is: "there isn't really a place where you can make that claim from"
and: "there isn't really a person who could make that claim anyway",
then I think that's some good advice. It might just be a semantic thing, but sometimes semantics are important.
Well, yeah (and I appreciate these comments, by the way) ..... *but* ..... it's interesting to me that despite the fact that I've both proactively and in response stated my agreement to both of your points, cited-yet-again above ... namely:
*Of course there's no "me" to be enlightened; per Wayne's post (and, possibly, a few of mine .... maybe even a few of yours ... and Anthem's ... and Yogani's) ..... the dropping of the idea-me *is* the defining point of enlightenment .... because the defining *quality* of enlightenment is "freedom from suffering" ... and the only condition that can bring that about is awareness of "me-as-story".
*Of course there's no end or cessation of relative living ... and so (relatively) no "fixed place" to state of as enlightenment in the "I've arrived" sense.
Yet ..... there's still the whole "third degree" thing ... but actually, not from a lot of people.
I think I get it, though: it's mostly a "social dynamics" thing.
If I did/do ever start a web site, or write books or whatever .. or if you, or TI, or whoever, do ... there's the "inherent authority" of being the leader (i.e. Yogani, or Adyashanti, with respect to his Sangha) .... but in Adya's case, as I posted ... people who knew him for a long time still gave him a hard time, or doubted the authenticity of his realization.
As Wayne pointed out, a *huge* part of this issues stems from the mythologizing of enlightenment (over the centuries, and by many modern spiritual teachers, as well) ... people feel like someone they know/know of, can't "be enlightened", because:
A. "Enlightenment isn't like that!"
&
B. "No 'regular person' ... especially not someone I basically know, and who is part of my same group ... can 'be enlightened' ... especially because I can't ... er 'am not'" ..... (etc. etc. etc.)
....... which some of us are simply trying to un-do ... because, in so doing .... more will be able to enjoy it, and sooner.
Now, limited mind will always chew on stuff like this .... so, the best we can do, it seems ... is do our best to point beyond limited mind.
Which was my intention in the first place.
I was going to say "but my choice of words may have been poor" ... but that's actually not true; this has been a good dialog ... and one that's potentially helpful for quite a few people, I'd say .... possibly even more for anyone simply reading it, than any of us who have been involved in it.
The whole world can change because of this (enlightenment; living from authentic consciousness), actually ..... everything that ails humankind is due to being mired in untrue concepts; what we're calling "enlightenment" (in this thread, at AYP, on Wayne's site, etc.) ... is just the end of that belief in untrue concepts ... beginning with the one that's the cause of all the others: "the story of me".
Nearly everyone here knows me to be sincere and straightforward, if a bit long-winded.
If I haven't said "Hey, everyone ... check out my lofty attainment!" ... in three years ..... I'm *probably* not gonna start now.
My intention was/is just to share my experience ... and my sense of what's possible.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Nov 25 2009 9:04:38 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 9:14:02 PM
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Hi TI,
I told you I'd respond to the rest of your post ... but I'm not going to the do "line by line" thing; it's not helpful for either of us.
If I'm "trying to help" you realize, I'll do exactly what I'm doing: posting authentically as a fellow forum member.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Perhaps you have attained superconsciousness?
Superconsciousness is just thoughtless awareness; it's no big deal.
In AYP, we call it inner silence.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
One last comment, if you say that you have no more ego, then who am I communicating with? Who is it that desires?
I have no idea.
You seemed to resonate with Wayne's answers; I've been saying the same things he has ... just less directly; I'm very glad he posted; I hope it really was helpful for you.
All I care about here is the result:
Let's help everyone get this (enlightenment) and live it.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 10:34:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
This is my experience also. There seems to come a point where people begin to become a channel of divine love flowing into the world. This is the real miracle and is there for everyone to see.
Christi
Hi Christi :)
A while back I realized that Jesus/God work in mysterious ways. I realized that the sequence and timing of daily events were being influenced by this divine flow. It does not only come through people, but through all forms and their motion. When you go with the greater flow, all of a sudden life becomes magical. :)
quote:
On the subject of the transition from oneness (unity consciousness) to Christ consciousness, I found this written by Tau malachi on the four stages of the evolution of the soul, which I thought you may find interesting:
quote:
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Rauch
Rauch is our spirit or intelligence... there are two distinct manifestations of Rauch. They are called the upper Rauch and the lower Rauch. The lower Rauch is the normal human intelligence which is oriented to the... external world...
The upper Rauch is oriented to the Neshamah and to the divine. As a result, it is an awareness of the ocean of spirituality, which surrounds us- awareness of the play of spiritual or cosmic forces, the metaphysical dimensions of reality, and God's holy Shekinah (presence and power) within and behind everything that transpires.
At this level we begin to get a sense of God's will for our soul- the mission of our soul. We are also able to receive the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to receive communication from the divine powers, and to experience higher states of consciousness well beyond the ordinary level.
Reaching the level of upper Rauch more and more, we find ourselves guided by the spirit and moved by the spirit. At the highest levels, we can experience unification with the Holy Spirit... which is a prophetic state of consciousness in which a person feels him or herself completely elevated and transformed.
When the level of upper Rauch is present in a person, they are rightly called a spiritual or holy person, for more than a godly soul, he or she is a Spirit-filled soul.
Neshamah
At the level of Neshamah, one experiences the radiant holy breath of God. Neshamah is the vessel that holds the spiritual power that God wants to give us... Nefesh forms a material body, but the Neshamah forms a body of light or heavenly image. This is an angelic image... the image of one's Christ self or future self. It is this divine image resembling a human being that prophets behold in the peak of their divine visions.
The enlightenment experience begins at the level of Rauch, but enlightenment and liberation proper correspond to the level of Neshamah... It is at this level that a true Messianic consciousness dawns and the Christ-self is realized. While many initiates attain the level of Rauch, relatively few attain the level of Neshamah.
Hayyah
The Hayyah is the most subtle life-force or living essence- so heavenly that it has little connection with the body and dwells mostly in other realms. It is the radiant holy breath of God that is experienced at the level of Neshamah. Yet at the level of hayyah, the holy breath is completely within God and one who experiences this presence and power experiences a conscious unification with God.
Most individuals will only gain the awareness of Hayyah in altered states. In these rare moments of peak experience, it is as though one is light in an ocean of light- the world of supernal light being experienced within and all around oneself. Quite literally one sees and experiences everything as this light-force....
While many initiates may experience something of Hayyah in peak mystical experience, the actual attainment of Hayyah is very rare. The power of the Hayyah is the power to resurrect the dead. Very few masters have walked the earth with this divine power...
Yechidah
There is an even higher level of the soul of light than Hayyah. It is called Yechidah- the holy or divine spark. It is a grade of unification beyond Hayyah of which nothing can really be said. One who attains this level is the light of all the worlds and is the way, truth and life. This is the essence of the spiritual sun- the Christos- Christ...
If Hayyah represents enlightenment proper and Yechidach is something beyond that holy attainment, then something subtle and profound is being said of enlightenment. What appears to us as a supreme or ultimate attainment is, in truth, but the beginning of a whole new level of evolution to which there is no end in sight." [Tau malachi, Gnosis of the Cosmic Christ]
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Thank you for posting this. I read it during a break at work. After I read it I was engulfed with bliss/tingles and I started seeing the forms and objects around me as if they had a super bright white light inside of their cells and the light was bursting out. The effect lasted over an hour and I didn't get much work done. I had to make a terrific effort to return to normal vision.
Then, that night, I did not sleep at all (2'nd time). Same thing, I watched the inside of my head, bright white light shining, then a nightmare, then more watching myself sleep.. However I seem to be fine now. I think there is a correspondence between those events..
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 10:52:59 PM
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Hi Kirtanman. :)
I must say that I do appreciate your corresponding with me. It has been very helpful for me to understand the distinctions between various types of experiences.
I especially liked your description of your practices, that you posted on the split-off thread in response to emc. It is good to know that eventually you made an effort to maintain constant awareness throughout the day. It is also good to know that behind that stream of thoughts there was emptiness.
I have no doubt that your awakening is valid for you and despite the fact that it does not compare to the other types of experiences that I have found in classic Vedanta texts, that in no way takes away from your experience. It helps to clarify my misconceptions about terminology and concepts. It has also taught me to be forever on guard that perhaps the meaning behind my words are not the same as others'.
The thing that I find fascinating is that, after the lights turn on, or the personal center of being shifts from the ego centre to that infinite expanse of awareness, there still seems to be a very human person in there along with all their idiosyncrasies and personality traits. Kind of reminds me of the "Men in Black" show where the little alien is controlling the body from inside the head, pulling levers and mechanisms to make the body seem alive.. :)
Thanks again. I certainly do appreciate the time and effort that you have put into your posts to me.
:)
TI
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2009 : 11:39:53 PM
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Welcome to AYP and thanks for the great post Wayne.
"Enlightenment is when you no longer identify with (think of yourself as) the personal self."
Yep! The great and lovely paradox, "there is nothing now because now there is everything"
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2009 : 12:17:40 AM
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| Like it or not, bliss and siddhis are complement of real enlightenment. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2009 : 07:26:09 AM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Thank you for posting this. I read it during a break at work. After I read it I was engulfed with bliss/tingles and I started seeing the forms and objects around me as if they had a super bright white light inside of their cells and the light was bursting out. The effect lasted over an hour and I didn't get much work done. I had to make a terrific effort to return to normal vision.
Then, that night, I did not sleep at all (2'nd time). Same thing, I watched the inside of my head, bright white light shining, then a nightmare, then more watching myself sleep.. However I seem to be fine now. I think there is a correspondence between those events..
Yogani has talked about this a few times.
In this lesson he talks about seeing white light everywhere:
"The manifestation of truth won't be exactly the same for everyone. So, picking a specific vision to strive for could be a mistake. Maybe some will never see a tunnel or star. Maybe they just zoom through at some point and it is all pure white light. Or maybe some other kinds of colors, and then the white light. Maybe no white light, and just more and more ecstasy, until one day, boom! And white light is everywhere inside and outside the body. It can happen many different ways, depending on the unique purification process going on in each person. No one can tell how it should be for every person. For this reason we don't worry much about visions in these lessons. We do the practices every day that we know encourage the nervous system to purify and open naturally. The experiences will be whatever they will be. If we keep clearing the highway to heaven, there can be no doubt that we will arrive in the best shape, and have the everlasting ability to come and go as we please. [Yogani]
http://www.aypsite.org/92.html
And here he talks about the subtle illuminatioon of the world and also talks about the danger of denying siddhis as part of the process of enlightenment:
"Ecstatic conductivity begins within us and radiates outward over time. As it does, it changes our perception of our surroundings. It is a refinement of sensory perception, an introversion occurring in and around us, and this is the progression of pratyahara, an expansion of the senses beyond physical to encompass the subtle celestial (revealing the shine). As it continues, even the shine (the mist of stillness) is transcended and we see we are blissful stillness (our inner silence) interpenetrating everything. The One.
So it is a progression of purification and opening, leading to ever refining grades of perception and experience. It is all one process of unfoldment, with changing scenery along the way. It is essentially the same gig of purification and opening all the way through from start to finish (if there is a finish).
A less-informed definition of pratyahara is "withdrawal from sensory perception," a denial of our sensory gifts, like denying siddhis and all of that -- essentially running away from our inherent capabilities. This is an immature view that has resulted from a long-standing inability to refine natural human capabilities. The truth is that, with sound practices, all of these aspects of our nature gradually refine over time to yield direct experience of the divine radiating within us and everywhere around us. We cannot get there by denying any aspect of our natural neurobiological functioning. Our nervous system is the doorway that joins us with the divine experience, which is our destiny. To walk though, we have to embrace the door and refine it so it may reveal its ultimate capabilities." [Yogani]
From,
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=3#18576
I find the writings of Tao Malachi are very powerful, as he is obviously speaking from a very high place of realization. Even reading a few lines written by him can put someone into an overload state, so be careful and self-pace wisely.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Nov 26 2009 10:26:16 AM |
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Wayne Wirs: Newly-Minted Enlightened Guy
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