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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 4:18:13 PM
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Namaste Friends....
I've debated for months as to whether or not to share this link or not. This thread is what first got me interested in The Law of One/The Ra Material.... This is more recent though, and definitely more concise. I am sharing it merely as "food for thought" and am not either endorsing nor opposing what is written here. You can judge for yourself. Take your time (if you decide to read it) as it is long, suspend judgement until finishing, and perhaps we can discuss it all here later if you are inclined. Enjoy.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9650929/Hidden-Hand
Love,
Carson |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 7:43:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Namaste Friends....
I've debated for months as to whether or not to share this link or not. This thread is what first got me interested in The Law of One/The Ra Material.... This is more recent though, and definitely more concise. I am sharing it merely as "food for thought" and am not either endorsing nor opposing what is written here. You can judge for yourself. Take your time (if you decide to read it) as it is long, suspend judgement until finishing, and perhaps we can discuss it all here later if you are inclined. Enjoy.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9650929/Hidden-Hand
Love,
Carson
Hi Carson & All,
A few comments:
*WOW. There IS somebody more verbose than me! "Who Knew?" 
*The author of whatever-exactly-that-is clearly has a very vivid imagination.
*Some things are best taken with a grain of salt; others, with the whole salt mine.
*When someone speaks of unity, yet displays a sense of more-special-than-thou (descended from Royal Bloodlines, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.  ) .. there's clearly a lot they don't understand/haven't experienced.
*From the view of awareness, anything stated in that document that's anywhere near accurate (unity, etc.) is largely obscured by a thick cloud of complexity and imagination than could cause early-stage yogis and yoginis to get caught in a rabbit hole of mind and imagination that has no value (Atlantis, 2012, etc. etc.) in terms of experiential awakening.
Meaning: some information (the "directly spiritual" stuff) seemed to be decent ... but if one is sufficiently advanced in practices/experience, they don't need it ... and if someone isn't sufficiently advanced (to be clear in awareness//free of doubt concerning such information) ... I would think it would be more useful to get that information from a less complex source (i.e. any traditional or traditionally oriented non-dual teachings; Shiva Sutras, equivalent Buddhist Sutras, Kabbalah teachings, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Adyashanti, Sophian Gnosticism, AYP, etc.), if they are "informationally inclined" ... in conjunction with the unfolding of awareness as a result of practices.
*This type of document can potentially lead thinking mind to think there's value (in terms of realization and enlightenment) in thinking, understanding, and/or having "inside information" (of the type that document's author states as factual) ... as many of us have experienced, and/or know people who have ... and nothing could be further from the truth; literally.
My $0.02 plus a bit of additional loose change.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Brother Carson ... I'm curious: what interested you about this document/info?
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 11:16:59 AM
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Hi Kirtanman....
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
A few comments:
*WOW. There IS somebody more verbose than me! "Who Knew?"
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
*The author of whatever-exactly-that-is clearly has a very vivid imagination.
Very likely
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
*Some things are best taken with a grain of salt; others, with the whole salt mine.
Yup...as I said when I posted the thread, "I am sharing it merely as "food for thought" and am neither endorsing nor opposing what is written here." I trust that others can siphon out anything they find relevant and resonate with for themselves. For me there were a few things of value in there. Scattered about, but valuable none-the-less. Even the poster (Hidden Hand) repeatedly says not to believe him....to suspend (dis)belief, take what resonates with you, and then put it to the test of personal experience to find your own Truth. He also said that it doesn't really matter whether or not the "messenger" is what he says he is....what matters is whether or not you gleen anything useful from what is said. I agree with him. It's like going to listen to a "guru" speak even though he/she has a record of sexual abuse....they are everywhere....and sure, they may have a "spotty" reputation to say the least.....but that doesn't change the fact that something he may say in that talk may resonate deep within you and cause an opening or even an awakening....teachers can be found in the most unthinkable places sometimes and to discredit what is said because of the messenger, could be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I've learned some pretty valueable things from some people with some pretty "vivid imaginations". 
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
*When someone speaks of unity, yet displays a sense of more-special-than-thou (descended from Royal Bloodlines, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ) .. there's clearly a lot they don't understand/haven't experienced.
I kinda doubt you read the whole thing Kirtanman....and perhaps I don't blame you. Either way, Hidden Hand says a few times in there that there is no "higher" and that he is not any "better" then anyone else. He even gives the example of someone walking on the ground and someone flying in a plane and says "is the person flying in the plane really any "higher" then the person on the ground?" Not trying to defend anything, just saying that perhaps you missed some sections that qualified other sections.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
*From the view of awareness, anything stated in that document that's anywhere near accurate (unity, etc.) is largely obscured by a thick cloud of complexity and imagination than could cause early-stage yogis and yoginis to get caught in a rabbit hole of mind and imagination that has no value (Atlantis, 2012, etc. etc.) in terms of experiential awakening.
There's is lots of content all over the place that could do just the same. I don't think "avoiding" it is necessarily the best strategy. The best offence is a good defense right? When sharing this link (as I think you know) my intention was certainly not to help anyone into the "rabbit hole".....I hoped that others could take what resonated with them, if anything at all, and use it appropriately. I, found this document useful in finding some "Truths" (that were not necessarily stated in the document, but were gleened from the inquiry induced by the document) and I hoped that others may have a similar experience as well. Obviously you didn't....that's cool too As I said in the original post, I have been debating sharing this document for literally several months (probably getting close to a year now) and had not done so up until now. Obviously I realize there may be some "dubious" material in there. I also (fairly) obviously think there is some potentially valueable material in there as well. So.....
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Meaning: some information (the "directly spiritual" stuff) seemed to be decent ... but if one is sufficiently advanced in practices/experience, they don't need it ...
Do any of us really need anything? It was just some food for thought for those that were hungry and looking for alternative sources for content. No harm intended (as I hope you realize).
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
and if someone isn't sufficiently advanced (to be clear in awareness//free of doubt concerning such information) ... I would think it would be more useful to get that information from a less complex source (i.e. any traditional or traditionally oriented non-dual teachings; Shiva Sutras, equivalent Buddhist Sutras, Kabbalah teachings, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Adyashanti, Sophian Gnosticism, AYP, etc.), if they are "informationally inclined" ... in conjunction with the unfolding of awareness as a result of practices.
Sure. But likely most of the folks who would be here reading this thread, would likely be fairly familiar with most of the materials listed above, and some may even be looking for other stuff to read on top of it. Personally I enjoy reading just about anything that crosses my path....even stuff like what was written by Hidden Hand. I trust my faculties of intuition enough that I feel I can do so without pushing myself into a cul-de-sac. I trust that others here can do the same. I also thought that if others actually DID read the linked thread (which I figured most wouldn't, and likely didn't...it's very long) we could discuss here the aspects that may have caused confusion, or may have not resonated with them. Or we could just discuss the aspects that *did* resonate, if there were any. This way we could collectively find what resonates and what doesn't and perhaps pull out the sections that were good so others didn't have to slog through pages and pages of "vividly imaginative" stuff to find the treasures. My intentions really weren't to bog others down in imaginative details but to further awakening by creating an opportunity to use our personal powers of intuition and our collective powers of deduction to find Truth. Perhaps this was a silly idea, I don't know. Like I said, I debated for a long time about starting this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
*This type of document can potentially lead thinking mind to think there's value (in terms of realization and enlightenment) in thinking, understanding, and/or having "inside information" (of the type that document's author states as factual) ... as many of us have experienced, and/or know people who have ... and nothing could be further from the truth; literally.
Sure I guess, but that certainly wasn't my intention in bringing this to the forum.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
*My $0.02 plus a bit of additional loose change.
Thanks for sharing
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
PS- Brother Carson ... I'm curious: what interested you about this document/info?
Someone just brought it to my attention and I read it. I tend to do that with just about anything that crosses my path. And I found this document inquiry inducing so I thought I would share. Hope I didn't throw anyone into "The Rabbit Hole"
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 27 2009 11:23:20 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 12:38:08 PM
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I would like to state this a slightly different way.
Let's use another book as an example....The Satanic Bible. Not sure if any of you out there have read it or not. I have. Personally, I find there is a lot of garbage contained in those pages. But I also found that there were a few gems of Truth inside. So because it could perhaps be classified as "confused spiritual literature", I found that reading it, deciphering what I thought was valuable in it, I honed my "Truth-dar" (read Truth-radar) just a little bit. It is pretty easy to get sucked into a book written by someone you already perhaps assume is enlightened, and take everything written as gospel. This IMO deadens the "Truth-dar". Sometimes it may be appropriate to throw into the mix a work of "confused spiritual literature" in order to sharpen the Truth-dar a little. Perhaps this is just mind playing with mind. To me, right now at least, it seems like a potentially valuable practice....picking the Truth from the BS. Hope that is a little clearer.
Love,
Carson |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 10:00:19 PM
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Hey Brother Carson,
"All good", as they say.
The "view from here" is kind of like this:
If one feels the need to study certain information, and there's a choice between a book with:
All correct information (i.e. accurate indicators; obviously, information-as-object, is inherently limited, compared to experiential knowing).
OR
Half-incorrect information, half glaringly-incorrect information.
... there's a sense that "all correct" might be preferable, or at the very least, simpler.
And everything happens as it happens; the author of that information writing it, your interest in the material as described, your posting about it, my response .... all perfection in action, literally.
And ... you're right: I didn't read it word-for-word (now I know how people feel with my posts! ) ....... though probably *did* read more of it than most people would; I probably caught close to half of it, intermittently throughout that document (as opposed to reading word-for-word through part of it, and stopping) ... after a few paragraphs, I could tell I didn't resonate with it; enthusiastically.
Yet, I wanted to see "what was there", in order to give you a decently-informed response, and/or do as you asked, and not "pass judgment" (not quite the right term, but you know what I mean ....) until I had read (through) the entire thing.
Skimming as I did, I feel I got the "gist" of it, though somehow did miss most/all of the qualifiers you mentioned (and I don't doubt they're there; I just didn't see them).
I truly stayed open to potentially "valuable" information, and saw fairly little, interspersed with a lot of vivid imagination.
Nothing wrong with that, but the author did seem to me to be presenting it all, generally as fact.
Except for the few "existential nuggets" about oneness, and what-not ... the vast majority of information was either incorrect, or non-applicable ... or both.
Shiva Sutras 1.2 says "knowledge is bondage" (right after 1.1 "Self is liberated awareness") for a reason:
Knowledge is bondage.
The knowing that matters is never an object; never information - never something the idea-me "has", or gains.
This knowing is gained via practices .... and via exposure to realized consciousness.
Realized consciousness cannot be discerned by discursive thinking; limited mind isn't capable of that kind of knowing; not designed for it.
Intuitive resonance is the way to know of whether or not a given teacher or teaching may be helpful, and if their consciousness is emanating as a level where exposure to it may help to harmonize your own (quote-unquote).
Adyashanti puts it well:
Shaktipat (emanation of higher consciousness uplifting illusory consciousness) is like the teacher is holding a guitar in his or her lap, and so is the student ... the teacher plucks a string ... and the student's guitar literally resonates in accord with the teacher's guitar.
Nothing passes *from* teacher to student; the teacher awakens what is always already here.
And so, it's not that that information is "bad" ... more that I can't see any purpose in exposure to it, especially in terms of spiritual practice, in the same way I can't see getting really drunk at a biker bar as having a purpose in terms of spiritual practice:
I can't say that it absolutely wouldn't; it's not possible to know that .... but in *general*, most practitioners wouldn't benefit from adopting it (getting drunk at a biker bar) as a spiritual practice.
That doesn't mean that you (Carson, or anyone else) can't, or "shouldn't" see something a certain way.
Maybe that document will be *the* key to awakening for someone, and if it is ... no one will be happier about that, than me ("me" ... quote-unquote ).
Because awakening/realization is what it's *all* about!
In general, though ... if you spend a few minutes reading, for instance, Adyashanti .... or Yogani ... or Nisargadatta .... and then spend a few minutes reading that document (Helping Hand, I guess it's called) ..... I think you'll see what I'm talking about, intuitively.
And if you don't ... or have a different reaction ... or don't do that at all .... it's all quite perfect.
And fun.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 1:58:26 PM
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Hi Kirtanman and thanks for continuing to engage in this with me....I feel there is a difference in approach here between us and that intriques me and I am enjoying the personal investigation that is occuring due to this conversation. Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
The "view from here" is kind of like this:
If one feels the need to study certain information, and there's a choice between a book with:
-All correct information (i.e. accurate indicators; obviously, information-as-object, is inherently limited, compared to experiential knowing).
OR
-Half-incorrect information, half glaringly-incorrect information.
... there's a sense that "all correct" might be preferable, or at the very least, simpler.
Yes of course, that would seem "logical". But there are a few issues I see with this from my perspective....hopefully I can outline them clearly
1. How can you truly give a fair evaluation to a piece of literature (and judge it as "Half-incorrect information, half glaringly-incorrect information") without reading it?
2. Why pass judgement like that and only read that which "seems right" at first glance? To me that is kinda like living in seclusion on a mountaintop in comparison to living amongst the beggars and theives yet still living an "enlightened" life. Personally I choose to take the approach that everything that crosses my path does so for a reason. Whether it is to strengthen my understanding through positive or negative re-inforcement makes no difference to me. If by reading a book that has "sketchy" information I come to a better understanding of what is Truth for me (whether that aligns with the sketchy book's view or not) is that understanding any less valuable then if you had come to that understanding by reading a book by a truely enlightened master? Not to me.
Why not take the approach of coming at EVERY piece of literature with a "critical eye"? Question everything no matter how it seems upon first glance. By doing so you put each and every "idea/concept/philosophy/non-idea/non-concept/non-philosophy" through "the ringer" of comparison with your personal Truth/experience to see whether or not you truly resonate with it. This way you can truly learn from everyone/thing and are not limiting your "teachers" to those that are "enlightened masters". I was pretty serious before when I said that I have learned some pretty important things about both myself and the nature of existence from homeless men and women who are by definition living about as "unspiritual" a lifetstyle as is humanly possible. Yet some of these people occassionally spout pure Truth amidst their spouting of pure confusion. To me, giving everyone and everything an "equal ear" leads to the opportunity to learn Truth from places most would not. I put everything through the process of measuring it up to my own personal experience.....I try to give everything that crosses my path a fair evaluation even if at first glance it seems to hold little to no "real" value. This is just a difference in personal approach I think, and likely "means" nothing other then I have to sort through a lot more garbage then you. That's ok with me though 'cause I feel I sometimes find the "diamonds in the rough" this way. I give equal credence to all the "good stuff" too
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And everything happens as it happens; the author of that information writing it, your interest in the material as described, your posting about it, my response .... all perfection in action, literally.
Absolutely....something good will come of this....something always does
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And ... you're right: I didn't read it word-for-word (now I know how people feel with my posts! ) ....... though probably *did* read more of it than most people would;
Maybe....maybe not. "Most" people don't exist. Those that resonated with it will likely read more then others that don't. You probably gave it more attention then you would have if you had just come across it on your own. Others of a "different persuasion" might have read it from start to finish, word for word, in one sitting....spellbound. Who knows. The first time I read it I was like that. Why? I don't know. It isn't so much the information in the post that was so valuable to me as the path the information led me down. That thread opened up a whole new area of "self-education" for me. Everyone is different, so I thought I would post it just in case it was what someone else needed in order to open up a whole new area of self-education or in case it helped someone come to a new/closer understanding of Truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I probably caught close to half of it, intermittently throughout that document (as opposed to reading word-for-word through part of it, and stopping) ... after a few paragraphs, I could tell I didn't resonate with it; enthusiastically.
I think that there was a lot of "non-important" information in there, but I think you should also remember that the "importance" of the information given was in direct relation to the intelligence of the questions asked. Hidden Hand did not "offer" any information...he simply answered questions.....he also repeatedly asked for "better quality" and "more insightful" questions as he did not want to be answering questions about things like the history of the planet, and wanted to be discussing solely spiritual matters....unfortunately the thread was on a "conspiracy forum" and not on a forum like AYP....had Hidden Hand opened a thread on AYP I think there would have been a LOT more valuable information resulting. Ask a dumb question get a dumb answer.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Yet, I wanted to see "what was there", in order to give you a decently-informed response, and/or do as you asked, and not "pass judgment" (not quite the right term, but you know what I mean ....) until I had read (through) the entire thing.
I appreciate any and all effort you put into reading this Kirtanman....thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Skimming as I did, I feel I got the "gist" of it, though somehow did miss most/all of the qualifiers you mentioned (and I don't doubt they're there; I just didn't see them).
Like I said, the "gems" are neatly tucked away for those with a keen instinct and a deep desire to sort the Truth from the BS. Definitely not for mass consumption
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I truly stayed open to potentially "valuable" information, and saw fairly little, interspersed with a lot of vivid imagination.
Hey man, fair enough!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Nothing wrong with that, but the author did seem to me to be presenting it all, generally as fact.
Oh yes....it was definitely presented as fact. Part of what made it so intriguing for me!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Except for the few "existential nuggets" about oneness, and what-not ... the vast majority of information was either incorrect, or non-applicable ... or both.
Again, largely due to the kinds and quality of the questions being asked IMO....purely my opinion, which is always subject ot change
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Shiva Sutras 1.2 says "knowledge is bondage" (right after 1.1 "Self is liberated awareness") for a reason:
Knowledge is bondage.
No arguement there!!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
The knowing that matters is never an object; never information - never something the idea-me "has", or gains.
Again, totally agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
This knowing is gained via practices .... and via exposure to realized consciousness.
Preaching to the choir....
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Realized consciousness cannot be discerned by discursive thinking; limited mind isn't capable of that kind of knowing; not designed for it.
Intuitive resonance is the way to know of whether or not a given teacher or teaching may be helpful, and if their consciousness is emanating as a level where exposure to it may help to harmonize your own (quote-unquote).
Just remember please that what resonates for one will not necessarily resonate for another and vice versa.....I *did* resonate with parts of the Hidden Hand thread because there was some stuff in there that helped *me* progress (perhaps not directly, but indirectly), helped clear away some clouds....others, and their obviously different personal "matrix of obstructions" either will or won't resonate with what is said there. What is one man's garbage is another man's treasure....true on many different levels.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Adyashanti puts it well:
Shaktipat (emanation of higher consciousness uplifting illusory consciousness) is like the teacher is holding a guitar in his or her lap, and so is the student ... the teacher plucks a string ... and the student's guitar literally resonates in accord with the teacher's guitar.
Nothing passes *from* teacher to student; the teacher awakens what is always already here.
But who says that that "chord" plucked on the "Shaktipat guitar" has to be one that "most" deem a harmonious resonance? Some people can find harmony in the wierdest "octaves/scales"....it's like musical preference....you have heard the kind of music I enjoy listening to, and you kindly referred to it as; "sounds like someone doing something unkind to solid objects with power tools while screaming about it" or something like that.....personally I find some incredible "harmonies" in the songs you describe like that. I literally resonate with harmonies "most/many" find untolerable. I don't think that it necessarily means that the music I enjoy is "confused" but more likely that I am adept at plucking out the Truth from the BS.....the harmony from the seeming "disharmony". Not better, not worse, just how it is for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And so, it's not that that information is "bad" ... more that I can't see any purpose in exposure to it, especially in terms of spiritual practice, in the same way I can't see getting really drunk at a biker bar as having a purpose in terms of spiritual practice:
I can't say that it absolutely wouldn't; it's not possible to know that .... but in *general*, most practitioners wouldn't benefit from adopting it (getting drunk at a biker bar) as a spiritual practice.
I totally understand what you are getting at, but that is why I find our "different approaches" so fascinating....we totally go at this very much "the same" but yet also "very differently". I *do* find that I can benefit spiritually in situations that most find "very unspiritual"....perhaps not totally unlike the dudes in India that eat dead human flesh and stuff...(forget the name of them....starts with an "A").... I enjoy putting myself in situations that many on "the spiritual path" would never even consider putting themselves in, and I can, and often do, find Truth there....just like I *occassionally* enjoy reading things like "Hidden Hand" and siphoning out the "existential nuggets" Just a different approach I guess. One that is always subject to change according to how things evolve.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
That doesn't mean that you (Carson, or anyone else) can't, or "shouldn't" see something a certain way.
Of course not....God forbid you ever told me NOT to do something!!! That would mean (at least it would have in the past) that I would HAVE to do it! No questions asked
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Maybe that document will be *the* key to awakening for someone, and if it is ... no one will be happier about that, than me ("me" ... quote-unquote ).
I doubt it will be THE key to awakening, but it could be *A* key to an opening for someone....you never know what will cause someone to step a little bit to the left/right
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Because awakening/realization is what it's *all* about!
Again...preaching to the choir Brother Kirtanman!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
In general, though ... if you spend a few minutes reading, for instance, Adyashanti .... or Yogani ... or Nisargadatta .... and then spend a few minutes reading that document (Helping Hand, I guess it's called) ..... I think you'll see what I'm talking about, intuitively.
Have you ever got to a point where you just can't read another "spiritual word"? You are filled up with "existential nuggets"? I have. This is when I find reading something like Hidden Hand helpful.... Kind of like listening to Opera all day long....it can be great for a while, but sometimes you just need to drop a little Screamcore in there just so that you can once again fully appreciate the Opera.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And if you don't ... or have a different reaction ... or don't do that at all .... it's all quite perfect.
Of course Thanks again for the stimulating conversation!
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 28 2009 3:30:06 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 10:02:03 PM
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Hey Brother Carson!
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Kirtanman and thanks for continuing to engage in this with me....I feel there is a difference in approach here between us and that intriques me and I am enjoying the personal investigation that is occuring due to this conversation. Thank you.
No worries; I'm enjoying it and finding value in it, too; thank you!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
The "view from here" is kind of like this:
If one feels the need to study certain information, and there's a choice between a book with:
-All correct information (i.e. accurate indicators; obviously, information-as-object, is inherently limited, compared to experiential knowing).
OR
-Half-incorrect information, half glaringly-incorrect information.
... there's a sense that "all correct" might be preferable, or at the very least, simpler.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Yes of course, that would seem "logical". But there are a few issues I see with this from my perspective....hopefully I can outline them clearly
1. How can you truly give a fair evaluation to a piece of literature (and judge it as "Half-incorrect information, half glaringly-incorrect information") without reading it?
I experienced an accurate sense of it, intuitively, without reading every word.
I have no sense my response would have been different, if I had read every word.
I have no interest in evaluation, fair or otherwise -- in my experience, evaluation is a fluctuation of limited thinking .... and as such, highly inaccurate "truthdar".
And I'm not stating that for anyone else, nor am I being "awarenessy-er than thou" .... I just mean what I'm saying:
Limited mind/thinking *is* based on a false premise (ego) ... it's *not* an accurate method for determining accuracy, truth or benefit, in my experiencing.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
2. Why pass judgement like that and only read that which "seems right" at first glance?
What judgment?
I'm stating fact.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
To me that is kinda like living in seclusion on a mountaintop in comparison to living amongst the beggars and theives yet still living an "enlightened" life.
Personally I choose to take the approach that everything that crosses my path does so for a reason.
I'm with ya there; me, too.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Whether it is to strengthen my understanding through positive or negative re-inforcement makes no difference to me. If by reading a book that has "sketchy" information I come to a better understanding of what is Truth for me (whether that aligns with the sketchy book's view or not) is that understanding any less valuable then if you had come to that understanding by reading a book by a truely enlightened master? Not to me.
Agreed, as far as the result goes.
And, as I said: whether or not something might be beneficial ... can't be known.
"Trust life."
(As I know you do; as do I.)
However, I was speaking more generally:
If someone wants to learn mathematics, and has a choice between a math book with 100% correct methodology and equations, and one with 50% correct methodology and equations ... which is more likely to yield a clearer understanding and experience of math?
Yes, it's possible that someone might actually get a clearer understanding from the less-clear material .... my point was just that it's less likely, in general.
And, the fact that that document was filled with so much erroneous information, and that the writing of Helping Hand demonstrated so much tendency toward a sense of being "exclusive" and having "special information" (both of which are utterly at odds with reality) ... and that the writing draws the mind into objective focus (history, conceptualization, hypothetical possibilities), which is in the direction of the problems (distinction, time, imagination) and not the solution (unity, presence, now) .... my intuitive response was that the likelihood of that document yielding a higher awareness of true nature/truth ... was generally somewhat unlikely.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Why not take the approach of coming at EVERY piece of literature with a "critical eye"? Question everything no matter how it seems upon first glance. By doing so you put each and every "idea/concept/philosophy/non-idea/non-concept/non-philosophy" through "the ringer" of comparison with your personal Truth/experience to see whether or not you truly resonate with it. This way you can truly learn from everyone/thing and are not limiting your "teachers" to those that are "enlightened masters".
I am open to everything, every moment, now.
My response to that document was real-time, as I read it; there was no comparison with anything.
Comparison and evaluation on any level are tools of limited mind.
When I mentioned the consciousness of Helping Hand, in comparison to the consciousness of other teachers, I wasn't referring to learning .... I was referring to (at)tuning.
I'm not at all "shutting out" those who don't appear to be enlightened masters; many enlightened masters don't "look like" limited mind thinks enlightened masters "should look".
I was speaking of the resonance of Helping Hand's actual consciousness as is intuited from the words; not as mentally evaluated concerning the words.
The former approach highlights, the latter occludes; evaluation *is* an incorrect equation; it's based in a closed-loop of memory, not openness, now.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I was pretty serious before when I said that I have learned some pretty important things about both myself and the nature of existence from homeless men and women who are by definition living about as "unspiritual" a lifetstyle as is humanly possible. Yet some of these people occassionally spout pure Truth amidst their spouting of pure confusion. To me, giving everyone and everything an "equal ear" leads to the opportunity to learn Truth from places most would not.
I agree; wholeheartedly .... this has been/is my experience, as well.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I put everything through the process of measuring it up to my own personal experience.....I try to give everything that crosses my path a fair evaluation even if at first glance it seems to hold little to no "real" value. This is just a difference in personal approach I think, and likely "means" nothing other then I have to sort through a lot more garbage then you. That's ok with me though 'cause I feel I sometimes find the "diamonds in the rough" this way. I give equal credence to all the "good stuff" too
I am open now.
(That's my approach/non-approach.)
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And everything happens as it happens; the author of that information writing it, your interest in the material as described, your posting about it, my response .... all perfection in action, literally.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Absolutely....something good will come of this....something always does
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And ... you're right: I didn't read it word-for-word (now I know how people feel with my posts! ) ....... though probably *did* read more of it than most people would;
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Maybe....maybe not. "Most" people don't exist.
That was a joke, son!
(said in Yosemite Sam voice ....)
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Those that resonated with it will likely read more then others that don't. You probably gave it more attention then you would have if you had just come across it on your own. Others of a "different persuasion" might have read it from start to finish, word for word, in one sitting....spellbound. Who knows. The first time I read it I was like that. Why? I don't know. It isn't so much the information in the post that was so valuable to me as the path the information led me down. That thread opened up a whole new area of "self-education" for me. Everyone is different, so I thought I would post it just in case it was what someone else needed in order to open up a whole new area of self-education or in case it helped someone come to a new/closer understanding of Truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I probably caught close to half of it, intermittently throughout that document (as opposed to reading word-for-word through part of it, and stopping) ... after a few paragraphs, I could tell I didn't resonate with it; enthusiastically.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I think that there was a lot of "non-important" information in there, but I think you should also remember that the "importance" of the information given was in direct relation to the intelligence of the questions asked. Hidden Hand did not "offer" any information...he simply answered questions.....he also repeatedly asked for "better quality" and "more insightful" questions as he did not want to be answering questions about things like the history of the planet, and wanted to be discussing solely spiritual matters....unfortunately the thread was on a "conspiracy forum" and not on a forum like AYP....had Hidden Hand opened a thread on AYP I think there would have been a LOT more valuable information resulting. Ask a dumb question get a dumb answer.
Transcend questions and answers, and know.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Nothing wrong with that, but the author did seem to me to be presenting it all, generally as fact.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Oh yes....it was definitely presented as fact. Part of what made it so intriguing for me!
Which is what I see as part of the issue; thinking mind loves intrigue; what good can come of that? What "truth"? What enhanced experiential knowing?
Sure .... some *could* come of it ... just like if you head north from where you are, you can eventually reach the United States ....... but there are easier and more direct ways to go about the journey.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Except for the few "existential nuggets" about oneness, and what-not ... the vast majority of information was either incorrect, or non-applicable ... or both.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Again, largely due to the kinds and quality of the questions being asked IMO....purely my opinion, which is always subject ot change
I dunno; Helping Hand did seem fairly committed to the whole "I come from a Royal Bloodline", "am part of a galactic hierarchy", etc.
I'm not taking exception to those points because they don't make sense to the rational mind; I'm not approaching them with rational mind; rational mind is easily the most over-rated tool in the universe.
I'm taking exception to those points because they have nothing at all to do with actuality, and are untrue.
How can I say they are untrue?
Easily - they indicate separation; separation is either untrue by reason of actuality OR by reason of focus.
There IS no Royal Bloodline, except for One Awareness ... the One Awareness we each and all are, now.
There IS no hierarchy except for the spectrum of infinity-focus that is the One.
I'm not saying this as a "person who has concluded this is true" ..... I Am This One Awareness.
You Am, Too.
Which is the Whole Point, Now.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Realized consciousness cannot be discerned by discursive thinking; limited mind isn't capable of that kind of knowing; not designed for it.
Intuitive resonance is the way to know of whether or not a given teacher or teaching may be helpful, and if their consciousness is emanating as a level where exposure to it may help to harmonize your own (quote-unquote).
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Just remember please that what resonates for one will not necessarily resonate for another and vice versa.....I *did* resonate with parts of the Hidden Hand thread because there was some stuff in there that helped *me* progress (perhaps not directly, but indirectly), helped clear away some clouds....others, and their obviously different personal "matrix of obstructions" either will or won't resonate with what is said there. What is one man's garbage is another man's treasure....true on many different levels.
I know this.
Please remember, though, that going North from Canada to reach the United States ... and going South from Canada to Reach the United States are both approaches will both work; but one of them is decidedly more direct, and much easier, and much faster .... than the other.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Adyashanti puts it well:
Shaktipat (emanation of higher consciousness uplifting illusory consciousness) is like the teacher is holding a guitar in his or her lap, and so is the student ... the teacher plucks a string ... and the student's guitar literally resonates in accord with the teacher's guitar.
Nothing passes *from* teacher to student; the teacher awakens what is always already here.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
But who says that that "chord" plucked on the "Shaktipat guitar" has to be one that "most" deem a harmonious resonance?
It's not a "deeming" thing; it's an actuality thing.
If the goal is to attune to an "open E" on a guitar, limited mind can decide that a somewhat cacaphonous E-flat is "deemed" as good or as pertinent as the "open E" .... but it's incorrect to say that it's the *same* as an "open E".
You can pretend 2+2 = 3 ... but no amount of preference or deeming ... or dreaming ... can make this a correct statement.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Some people can find harmony in the wierdest "octaves/scales"....it's like musical preference....you have heard the kind of music I enjoy listening to, and you kindly referred to it as; "sounds like someone doing something unkind to solid objects with power tools while screaming about it" or something like that.....personally I find some incredible "harmonies" in the songs you describe like that. I literally resonate with harmonies "most/many" find untolerable.
I *did* say that, didn't I?
I actually listen to it again; I felt the same response.
I also read your emailed response to my initial "review" ... and "get" every point you made there, as well ... 100%.
I've spent most of my life living the same general musical dynamics; I still enjoy Metallica .... and many people find Metallica as "hard to take" as I find Screamcore/Mathcore.
It's not really even a like/dislike thing ... it's a body-mind conditioning thing.
Awareness is just awareness; the conditioning of the body-mind has preferences.
Such preferences can be transcended, but in general, there's no reason to artificially transcend them --- open acceptance of the inclinations of the body-mind is naturally flowing with the totality ..... which both you and I are doing, in terms of conditioned musical preferences.
It's not the specific content; it's the *context* of the content, as experienced through the given body-mind.
I don't doubt for a moment that screamcore can elicit transcendent responses in you as surely as kirtan chants can, for me.
And I get what you're saying .... you would think it would be an identical situation with the Helping Hand document.
Ultimately, it may be ... but the fact of the matter is:
It's far more likely that that document will be read in terms of information and/or resonance with the consciousness level of Helping Hand, than that Helping Hand's consciousness, or the accuracy of the total information ... will be used as context for facilitation of transcendence .... though I do agree it's fully *possible* to do that.
In a similar manner, most body-minds respond better to harmony than they do with cacaphony .... and harmony is more like to facilitate transcendent experiences than cacaphony ..... which is *why* most people experience harmony as harmony; there's an inherent resonance between harmony and consciousness on all planes of consciousness, including the one where they are one.
And yes, cacophony is that one, too; it all is.
Cacaphony isn't that/this even one iota less or differently; there is only one.
The only-found-in-duality "however" though, is that it's easier to boil water with heat than with cold .... and/or with consistent heat than half-heat, half-cold.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I don't think that it necessarily means that the music I enjoy is "confused" but more likely that I am adept at plucking out the Truth from the BS.....the harmony from the seeming "disharmony". Not better, not worse, just how it is for me.
Agreed.
Music takes us into the unity of the oneness via facilitating connection.
All does this, actually; it's just a matter of consciously knowing ... or not.
Anything *can* do this; my point was just concerning the greater likelihood of some things facilitating this more clearly, easily, directly than others.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And so, it's not that that information is "bad" ... more that I can't see any purpose in exposure to it, especially in terms of spiritual practice, in the same way I can't see getting really drunk at a biker bar as having a purpose in terms of spiritual practice:
I can't say that it absolutely wouldn't; it's not possible to know that .... but in *general*, most practitioners wouldn't benefit from adopting it (getting drunk at a biker bar) as a spiritual practice.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I totally understand what you are getting at, but that is why I find our "different approaches" so fascinating....we totally go at this very much "the same" but yet also "very differently". I *do* find that I can benefit spiritually in situations that most find "very unspiritual"....perhaps not totally unlike the dudes in India that eat dead human flesh and stuff...(forget the name of them....starts with an "A")
Aghoris..... and yeah, me too ("not totally unlike").
Ultimately, it's all good, and it's all God.
Independence from any "standards" is an inherent part of liberation.
quote:
I enjoy putting myself in situations that many on "the spiritual path" would never even consider putting themselves in, and I can, and often do, find Truth there....just like I *occassionally* enjoy reading things like "Hidden Hand" and siphoning out the "existential nuggets" Just a different approach I guess. One that is always subject to change according to how things evolve.
Cool.
I don't have an approach; awareness is open to living unbound, that's all.
Truth is what's happening now.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
That doesn't mean that you (Carson, or anyone else) can't, or "shouldn't" see something a certain way.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Of course not....God forbid you ever told me NOT to do something!!! That would mean (at least it would have in the past) that I would HAVE to do it! No questions asked
Dude, I *so* used to be you!!
I lived my whole life like that, until a few years ago.
Now, if someone says I have to do something, I'll respond as awareness, responding. This might mean doing it, it might mean not .... the only constant is complete intention that whatever the response, it be the most uplifting response for all ... as action from-as presence-awareness ... which is the only non-choice available to-as awareness.
It sounds like you may still have a fixed sense of "separate me" in certain moments; don't worry .... it'll pass.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
In general, though ... if you spend a few minutes reading, for instance, Adyashanti .... or Yogani ... or Nisargadatta .... and then spend a few minutes reading that document (Helping Hand, I guess it's called) ..... I think you'll see what I'm talking about, intuitively.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Have you ever got to a point where you just can't read another "spiritual word"? You are filled up with "existential nuggets"? I have. This is when I find reading something like Hidden Hand helpful.... Kind of like listening to Opera all day long....it can be great for a while, but sometimes you just need to drop a little Screamcore in there just so that you can once again fully appreciate the Opera.
I wasn't referring to the level of the information .... but rather, the resonance of the consciousness of the author which shines through the information.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And if you don't ... or have a different reaction ... or don't do that at all .... it's all quite perfect.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Of course Thanks again for the stimulating conversation!
Love,
Carson
And Thank You!!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2009 : 1:51:25 PM
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Hey Kirtanman and again, thank you for more stimulating conversation.... I'm going to miss these talks while I am away next month.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
1. How can you truly give a fair evaluation to a piece of literature (and judge it as "Half-incorrect information, half glaringly-incorrect information") without reading it?
I experienced an accurate sense of it, intuitively, without reading every word.
How can you know what you experienced was an "accurate sense" of what was being said?
I figured you had gone on intuition mostly, but what I was meaning was that if you are going by intuition alone you may miss important "qualifiers" that may be buried within, like you did. I think intuition is fine for grasping an "overall vibe" of something, but the specifics will never be known through intuition alone. And sometimes the beauty of a "thing" is in the specifics.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I have no sense my response would have been different, if I had read every word.
How could you? You would have had to have read every word to get a sense that your intuition was not correct...
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I have no interest in evaluation, fair or otherwise -- in my experience, evaluation is a fluctuation of limited thinking .... and as such, highly inaccurate "truthdar".
Sure. Personally I still have to "weigh" things according to my personal experience/Truth/intuition....especially when searching for Truth or trying to sort Truth from BS. I'm sure one day I will no longer need the mind-tool of evaluation, just not yet I guess.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And I'm not stating that for anyone else, nor am I being "awarenessy-er than thou" .... I just mean what I'm saying:
Limited mind/thinking *is* based on a false premise (ego) ... it's *not* an accurate method for determining accuracy, truth or benefit, in my experiencing.
And an accurate method for determining accuracy, Truth of benefit is.....? Just so I know what to replace my "evaluation methods" with.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
2. Why pass judgement like that and only read that which "seems right" at first glance?
What judgment?
I'm stating fact.
The judgement that there is nothing (or relatively little) of value in the Hidden Hand thread and/or that there is more of value in other writings that are more "spiritual". That is not a fact. It may be for you....but certainly not for me! I personally found stuff of value (whether directly or indirectly) from that document and have read some "spiritual books" that resonated not one iota with me.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
To me that is kinda like living in seclusion on a mountaintop in comparison to living amongst the beggars and theives yet still living an "enlightened" life.
Personally I choose to take the approach that everything that crosses my path does so for a reason.
I'm with ya there; me, too.
Perhaps....but I am meaning to draw a corrolation between the above lifestyle choice and the ability to gleen valuable insight from a not so reliable source. I can learn and grow spiritually in the midst of "confusion" just as well, if not better then, I can if I am living on a mountaintop in seclusion. For me, it offers the opportunity of truly coming to a deep(er) understanding of what is Truth for me when I have to constantly sort through the garbage for the gems. And it's not so much about "seeking out the gems" as learning to "hone my intuition". It's hard to hone the intuition if you are always constantly surrounded by Truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Whether it is to strengthen my understanding through positive or negative re-inforcement makes no difference to me. If by reading a book that has "sketchy" information I come to a better understanding of what is Truth for me (whether that aligns with the sketchy book's view or not) is that understanding any less valuable then if you had come to that understanding by reading a book by a truely enlightened master? Not to me.
Agreed, as far as the result goes.
And, as I said: whether or not something might be beneficial ... can't be known.
"Trust life."
Of course....that's why I posted the thread here. Because I came to a point where Life was pushing me to do so. Why? Who knows...doesn't matter. This document came across my path, I read it, it helped me sort some stuff out, and now, after much deliberation and procrastination, it is time for me to share it. I trust that Life will use this thread as it is needed for whom it is needed. I have only done what I was "meant" to do here. Whether or not there is something "beneficial" (for another) in the shared document is not for me to say, I am just supposed to share it for whatever reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
However, I was speaking more generally:
If someone wants to learn mathematics, and has a choice between a math book with 100% correct methodology and equations, and one with 50% correct methodology and equations ... which is more likely to yield a clearer understanding and experience of math?
BIG difference between "math" and "spirituality". You can learn math from a book....you can't learn spirituality or Truth from a book. Spirituality/Truth are individual and what takes one to Truth is not always going to be what takes another there.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Yes, it's possible that someone might actually get a clearer understanding from the less-clear material .... my point was just that it's less likely, in general.
Well perhaps.... it all really depends on the given person's disposition at the time IMO. Personally I don't find Truth by someone telling me "this is Truth"....I find Truth by listening to everything, putting all I hear through the test of comparison with my own intuition/personal experience, and then coming to a personal understanding of Truth based on this. Someone stating that "All is One" to me is not going to convince me that this is Truth. Hearing that, putting it to the test of "how do I feel about this/how does this stack up against my own personal experience", and then allowing my own Truth to form from that, is how I come to the understanding that "Yes, All is One".
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And, the fact that that document was filled with so much erroneous information, and that the writing of Helping Hand demonstrated so much tendency toward a sense of being "exclusive" and having "special information" (both of which are utterly at odds with reality) ... and that the writing draws the mind into objective focus (history, conceptualization, hypothetical possibilities), which is in the direction of the problems (distinction, time, imagination) and not the solution (unity, presence, now) .... my intuitive response was that the likelihood of that document yielding a higher awareness of true nature/truth ... was generally somewhat unlikely.
Of course....but as I said earlier, sometimes Truth is found in the most unlikely situations and spouted by the most unlikely of individuals...I choose not to write anyone/thing off just because they seem wacko/lost in general.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I am open to everything, every moment, now.
My response to that document was real-time, as I read it; there was no comparison with anything.
Comparison and evaluation on any level are tools of limited mind.
When I mentioned the consciousness of Helping Hand, in comparison to the consciousness of other teachers, I wasn't referring to learning .... I was referring to (at)tuning.
Yeah I knew what you were referring to. I was just saying that even though Hidden Hand may be/seem quite lost in general, some of what he says may push someone (like it did for me) to investigate within for Truth....and find it. Or the value in me posting this may be in some completely other area....I am not attached to having anything come of my posting of this thread....I just felt the need to share this(after not sharing for almost a year), and I don't know (nor care) why. I just did it. And as I said earlier, there was no "harmful intention" behind my sharing....there was really no intention at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I'm not at all "shutting out" those who don't appear to be enlightened masters; many enlightened masters don't "look like" limited mind thinks enlightened masters "should look".
I was speaking of the resonance of Helping Hand's actual consciousness as is intuited from the words; not as mentally evaluated concerning the words.
Yes I realize where you were coming from on this Kirtanman...I didn't think that you were "judging" that material from a "mindy perspective"..... I just think that we shouldn't be so quick to write things off based on our initial intuition..... I personally would have missed out on a lot of valuable stuff if I did this (not just this thread).
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
The former approach highlights, the latter occludes; evaluation *is* an incorrect equation; it's based in a closed-loop of memory, not openness, now.
Yes, I agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I put everything through the process of measuring it up to my own personal experience.....I try to give everything that crosses my path a fair evaluation even if at first glance it seems to hold little to no "real" value. This is just a difference in personal approach I think, and likely "means" nothing other then I have to sort through a lot more garbage then you. That's ok with me though 'cause I feel I sometimes find the "diamonds in the rough" this way. I give equal credence to all the "good stuff" too
I am open now.
(That's my approach/non-approach.)
That's what I am doing here too though, I hope you can see that. Being open to learning even from those who seem/may be lost. What resonates with me (or anyone else) may not be what resonates with you. We are all at different "points" in our journies and we all have different things to learn/areas to grow in. Perhaps you are completely mature in areas I am still growing in and that is why I found this document useful and you did not. Either way, it is not either of our place to try and influence others either for or against any material....what one comes across one comes across for a reason....and we can never know what that reason is. Therefor I chose to share this "dubious material".....who knows if someone else will find it useful or not. I won't try to sway anyone one way or the other....I will just put it out there so others can read it if they desire.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Transcend questions and answers, and know.
Of course. But please remember we are all at different stages of spiritual development and what is useful for one is not always useful for another depending on where one is at in their journey. Telling someone to "transcend questions and answers, and know" can be/could be ULTRA confusing/frustrating for some at a certain stage of their journey....we have no right to tell someone they should not be asking questions or looking for answers....they will see the value in this on their own when they are ready.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Nothing wrong with that, but the author did seem to me to be presenting it all, generally as fact.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Oh yes....it was definitely presented as fact. Part of what made it so intriguing for me!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Which is what I see as part of the issue; thinking mind loves intrigue; what good can come of that? What "truth"? What enhanced experiential knowing?
I can't tell you what Truth someone may come to understand based on reading the above, but I can tell you that someone COULD find Truth due to reading Hidden Hand, regardless of what that Truth is. Even if someone just comes to understand the Truth that material like this is useless (for them), then perhaps that is why I was meant to post it.... Like I said, I have no attachement to the outcome of me posting this, I just felt the need to do it so I did.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Sure .... some *could* come of it ... just like if you head north from where you are, you can eventually reach the United States ....... but there are easier and more direct ways to go about the journey.
Again, who are we to dictate how one goes about finding Truth? (or the USA) I have taken some pretty "round-about" ways to Truth, but I regret none of the "excess journey".....it was what was necessary for me to be right here, right now....and where else *should* I be? I don't doubt that there are more "direct" ways to find Truth, but we have no right to tell another how to go about, or what route to take, to get to Truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Except for the few "existential nuggets" about oneness, and what-not ... the vast majority of information was either incorrect, or non-applicable ... or both.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Again, largely due to the kinds and quality of the questions being asked IMO....purely my opinion, which is always subject ot change
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I dunno; Helping Hand did seem fairly committed to the whole "I come from a Royal Bloodline", "am part of a galactic hierarchy", etc.
It really isn't about the messenger IMO K-man.... Like I said before, I have learned some very valuable Truths (for me) from some pretty lost (read: imaginiative) individuals. Who are we to dictate who is to be another's teacher for this moment?
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I'm not taking exception to those points because they don't make sense to the rational mind; I'm not approaching them with rational mind; rational mind is easily the most over-rated tool in the universe.
I'm taking exception to those points because they have nothing at all to do with actuality, and are untrue.
I basically disregarded the stuff I found inconsequential and read on for the stuff I *did* resonate with. I care not about Royal Bloodlines, Hidden Hands origin or anything else along those lines. I wasn't sharing this thread for any of that sort of information.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
How can I say they are untrue?
Easily - they indicate separation; separation is either untrue by reason of actuality OR by reason of focus.
Sure. I really didn't care one way or the other (whether or not HH is what he says he is). I wasn't interested in that material at all, but I also didn't use it as a "disqualifier" for everything else that was said. I didn't take my general vibe/feeling and extrapolate that onto everything that was said....I gave each nugget of information it's own opportunity to resonate with me or not. I really didn't care who or what the messenger claimed to be or not to be. It was about the information that resonated with me and nothing else.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
There IS no Royal Bloodline, except for One Awareness ... the One Awareness we each and all are, now.
I agree....not that that matters.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
There IS no hierarchy except for the spectrum of infinity-focus that is the One.
And HH said this himself.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I'm not saying this as a "person who has concluded this is true" ..... I Am This One Awareness.
You Am, Too.
Which is the Whole Point, Now.
Yes of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Realized consciousness cannot be discerned by discursive thinking; limited mind isn't capable of that kind of knowing; not designed for it.
Intuitive resonance is the way to know of whether or not a given teacher or teaching may be helpful, and if their consciousness is emanating as a level where exposure to it may help to harmonize your own (quote-unquote).
Yes I know.....but sometimes a specific teacher crosses our path because we have something specific we need to learn from them. And if we are writing that teacher off as "unvaluable" to us because at first they didn't resonate with us as a "teacher", then we can be putting ourselves in a box and are no longer remaining open to learn from any and every situation. I think that our "intuition" can end up making us "closed off" if we aren't staying constantly aware of this possibility. We can intuitively feel that someone has nothing of value for us, but things change....we change, teachers change, messages change.....staying open is key....I know you live this....I am just saying that if our intuition says one thing right now, we need to be open to letting that intution change as it does. Just because you feel that there is nothing of value from a teacher *right now* doesn't mean there won't be something of value from that same teacher in ten minutes or whatever. Same with a document like what we are talking about.....just because the beginning doesn't resonate with you doesn't mean that there won't be a single sentence in there somewhere that could change your entire view/perspective. I chose to be open and allow myself to learn and grow from/in any situation, no matter what my "initial intuition" may be. I know that intuition (like everything else) is always subject to change.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Please remember, though, that going North from Canada to reach the United States ... and going South from Canada to Reach the United States are both approaches will both work; but one of them is decidedly more direct, and much easier, and much faster .... than the other.
But who are we to dictate to another what "route" to take to Truth? Perhaps for one it is necessary to take "the long road" as there are lessons to be learned along the way. Just because you may be able to take a gondola to the top of the mountain doesn't mean that if you chose to hike the entire way that you are "going about it all wrong"....the shortest distance from point A to point B is not always what is needed for every individual....some people NEED to take the long way....that's just how it is. Some of us have more lessons to learn then others I guess.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
But who says that that "chord" plucked on the "Shaktipat guitar" has to be one that "most" deem a harmonious resonance?
It's not a "deeming" thing; it's an actuality thing.
If the goal is to attune to an "open E" on a guitar, limited mind can decide that a somewhat cacaphonous E-flat is "deemed" as good or as pertinent as the "open E" .... but it's incorrect to say that it's the *same* as an "open E".
I'm just saying that what is "harmonious" for one is not always what is harmonious for another. If open E is "the goal" and is struck by the guru, not everyone will resonate with that. If a flat E is struck, others may resonate with that who did not resonate with the whole note E. People resonate with different things for different reasons. We all have our individual matrix of obstructions....(and some of us may be tone deaf )
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
You can pretend 2+2 = 3 ... but no amount of preference or deeming ... or dreaming ... can make this a correct statement.
True...but you can say that an "open E" sounds better, but in reality that is individual/subjective....not an absolute. I thrive on "seeming" disharmony.....on finding the harmony within the disharmony. Not everything is so cut-and-dried (for me).
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Some people can find harmony in the wierdest "octaves/scales"....it's like musical preference....you have heard the kind of music I enjoy listening to, and you kindly referred to it as; "sounds like someone doing something unkind to solid objects with power tools while screaming about it" or something like that.....personally I find some incredible "harmonies" in the songs you describe like that. I literally resonate with harmonies "most/many" find untolerable.
I *did* say that, didn't I?
I actually listen to it again; I felt the same response.
Hey man, that's all good. But it also doesn't mean that there is nothing "harmonious" about that music....especially not for me. I literally sing harmonies with both the songs you are referencing....and you likely can hear nothing but noise. It's all about individual preferences and individual needs.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I also read your emailed response to my initial "review" ... and "get" every point you made there, as well ... 100%.
I've spent most of my life living the same general musical dynamics; I still enjoy Metallica .... and many people find Metallica as "hard to take" as I find Screamcore/Mathcore.
It's not really even a like/dislike thing ... it's a body-mind conditioning thing.
Awareness is just awareness; the conditioning of the body-mind has preferences.
ABSOLUTELY!!! This is basically what I am trying to get at with both the music and the HH discussions. Awareness is awareness, but we each have individual (body-mind) conditionings, preferences, and likes/dislikes (resonations). And due to these "preferences" what one person resonates with (learns/grows due to) is not always going to be the same as another. Some people are capable of learning and growing due to being exposed to negative influence (or what could be termed as this by another) and that is what they need. This won't work for everyone. But saying that this approach won't work for anyone, or saying that it is an "ineffective" approach because it may not be the most "direct route" is infringing on another's "business"....it isn't our place to make judgments like that. Hence my choice to share some "dubious material" that is likely useless for many.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Such preferences can be transcended, but in general, there's no reason to artificially transcend them --- open acceptance of the inclinations of the body-mind is naturally flowing with the totality ..... which both you and I are doing, in terms of conditioned musical preferences.
Certainly. I have transcended many of my former personal preferences (such as how I deal with troubling situations.....I used to medicate as a coping mechanism....now I have other methods/non-methods I use). I have not transcended my preference for music though....I have always resonated with the heaviest of heavy music....that's just my personal body-mind makeup....I have no desire to change it, and no desire to hold onto it....if it changes of itself, so be it....if it doesn't....well, I will continue to enjoy Norma Jean then.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
It's not the specific content; it's the *context* of the content, as experienced through the given body-mind.
I don't doubt for a moment that screamcore can elicit transcendent responses in you as surely as kirtan chants can, for me.
And I get what you're saying .... you would think it would be an identical situation with the Helping Hand document.
Ultimately, it may be ... but the fact of the matter is:
It's far more likely that that document will be read in terms of information and/or resonance with the consciousness level of Helping Hand, than that Helping Hand's consciousness, or the accuracy of the total information ... will be used as context for facilitation of transcendence .... though I do agree it's fully *possible* to do that.
Well perhaps I am just weird and learn in odd ways, but what you say is unlikely, is exactly how it was for me. And I thought I would/should share in case there are other "wierd learners" out there who find any part of the HH document valuable. If they don't then they don't....it really makes no difference one way or the other to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
In a similar manner, most body-minds respond better to harmony than they do with cacaphony .... and harmony is more like to facilitate transcendent experiences than cacaphony ..... which is *why* most people experience harmony as harmony; there's an inherent resonance between harmony and consciousness on all planes of consciousness, including the one where they are one.
I think the use of the word "most" in this paragraph is unwarranted. You can't know how "most" will react, hence my earlier statement of "Most people don't exist".... I personally do not find that "harmony" as many describe it (you in particular right now) is what is helpful for me to transcend my personal conditioning. I find "cacaphony" much more useful. Harmony for me creates complacency....disharmony is a motivator for me....a motivator to find the harmony in the seeming disharmony. I have no desire for Life to come "easy" for me. I enjoy struggle....in fact I NEED it to grow. If Life was all "harmony" I would get nowhere. Learning to enjoy disharmony as an opportunity to grow comes naturally for me. I'm sure there are others out there that find themselves with a similar disposition, and perhaps it is for those people that I posted the HH thread, I don't know.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And yes, cacophony is that one, too; it all is.
Kinda my point.....harmony is Life...all of Life is in harmony, always....it is just a matter of changing the perspective to notice the harmony in the seeming disharmony...there really is no such thing as disharmony....all is harmony if you have the ears to hear it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Cacaphony isn't that/this even one iota less or differently; there is only one.
Exactly.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
The only-found-in-duality "however" though, is that it's easier to boil water with heat than with cold .... and/or with consistent heat than half-heat, half-cold.
I don't disagree with this, nor feel any need to argue with it. I just feel the need to say that not everyone benefits from going about things "the easy way".....some of us need the struggle....some of us need to "fight" in order to realize that fighting is a lost cause.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I don't think that it necessarily means that the music I enjoy is "confused" but more likely that I am adept at plucking out the Truth from the BS.....the harmony from the seeming "disharmony". Not better, not worse, just how it is for me.
Agreed.
Music takes us into the unity of the oneness via facilitating connection.
All does this, actually; it's just a matter of consciously knowing ... or not.
Anything *can* do this; my point was just concerning the greater likelihood of some things facilitating this more clearly, easily, directly than others.
We can't know what will bring another home....and in trying to direct others towards the "easiest" way, we can often push them further and further from that....sometimes difficulty is what is needed to bring one home.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Aghoris..... and yeah, me too ("not totally unlike").
Ultimately, it's all good, and it's all God.
Independence from any "standards" is an inherent part of liberation.
I agree....thanks for reminding me of the word aghori....won't forget again
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
That doesn't mean that you (Carson, or anyone else) can't, or "shouldn't" see something a certain way.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Of course not....God forbid you ever told me NOT to do something!!! That would mean (at least it would have in the past) that I would HAVE to do it! No questions asked
Dude, I *so* used to be you!!
I lived my whole life like that, until a few years ago.
Likewise.....(other then it not being a few years, and being more like a single year).... It is much more freeing to live without "having" to do things (just out of spite) because another told you not to.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Now, if someone says I have to do something, I'll respond as awareness, responding. This might mean doing it, it might mean not .... the only constant is complete intention that whatever the response, it be the most uplifting response for all ... as action from-as presence-awareness ... which is the only non-choice available to-as awareness.
Exactly how I choose to live now as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
It sounds like you may still have a fixed sense of "separate me" in certain moments; don't worry .... it'll pass.
Yes, of course....I still have a "fixed sense of seperate me".... I will until I don't anymore....
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
In general, though ... if you spend a few minutes reading, for instance, Adyashanti .... or Yogani ... or Nisargadatta .... and then spend a few minutes reading that document (Helping Hand, I guess it's called) ..... I think you'll see what I'm talking about, intuitively.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Have you ever got to a point where you just can't read another "spiritual word"? You are filled up with "existential nuggets"? I have. This is when I find reading something like Hidden Hand helpful.... Kind of like listening to Opera all day long....it can be great for a while, but sometimes you just need to drop a little Screamcore in there just so that you can once again fully appreciate the Opera.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I wasn't referring to the level of the information .... but rather, the resonance of the consciousness of the author which shines through the information.
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding....I realize now what you were meaning and I agree. There is a lot of benefit to reading anything by an enlightened master regardless of what is said. Not so with HH. No arguement there. Still doesn't mean there is nothing of value for anyone in the HH thread.
Thanks again for the great conversation, and sorry this is so utterly long
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 29 2009 1:54:25 PM |
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Hidden Hand
