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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 09 2009 : 1:59:39 PM
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Points are dimensionless.
Objects consist of points. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2009 : 9:34:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Suryakant
Points are dimensionless.
Objects consist of points.
Your argument assumes a multiplicity of points. The points in objects are not identical in space. So you haven't proved it. No matter. You are going about it wrong.
Logical proof will not get you to non-duality. Far too much weight is given to the power of logic. Most people do not understand the limits of logic.
What gets you non-duality is an investigation of the nature of the mind. Duality of mind and body or of subject and object is purely conceptual (it is an erroneous assumption).
The mind is a phenomenon arising from the physical body, like digestion. There is no digestion apart from the digestive system. There is no mind apart from the nervous system. The mind and the world have not separation. Direct experience of this fact of life is what everything is about. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2009 : 10:20:05 PM
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Objects don't really consist of points. A point is an imaginary geometric concept invented by man in order to break objects down so they can be mathematically analyzed. They are dimensionless because someone defined them as such. They have to be so measuring objects is easy.
But good thought - objects consist of more space between molecules than the solids in them.
But like Konchok is saying; the mind and thinking only exists and operates in the dual world. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 09 2009 10:27:16 PM |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2009 : 10:24:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
quote:
Originally posted by Suryakant
Points are dimensionless.
Objects consist of points.
You are going about it wrong.
Konchok...your statement proves one thing...
Suryakant ...I enjoyed your post! |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 12:11:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by machart
Suryakant ...I enjoyed your post!
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 02:18:46 AM
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| existence exists, it has no opposite |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 09:50:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by machart
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
quote:
Originally posted by Suryakant
Points are dimensionless.
Objects consist of points.
You are going about it wrong.
Konchok...your statement proves one thing...
Suryakant ...I enjoyed your post!
Hahaha |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 09:57:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
existence exists, it has no opposite
Huh? You can't possibly establish this. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 09:59:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
existence exists, it has no opposite
Well, non-existence.
Don't all things have opposites? It's the nature of duality, and existence. I think the essence of reality is vibration; waves. I think that is what we will find molecules are made of. And vibration is dual by nature, like existence.
The consciousness of God creates vibration in the life force. The frequency of vibration determines how it will manifest, in other words what objects appear, or what elements manifest, or whether we perceive earth, fire, air, or water.
So my theory is that silence in meditation can bring us to perception of the life force that is not vibrating. It still contains the consciousness of God without the intent to vibrate.
This could be called "non-duality", but words are dual by nature, so by defining it you create an opposite, which is no life force.
This is purely imaginary, because if there were no life force, nobody would be there to define or perceive it.
Of course the scientific mind would say it is possible for "no life force" to exist "over there"; in a different place than where life force exists. But this is just word play because without life force there is no "over there"; in other words space or dimensions are a manifestation of life force vibrating. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 10 2009 10:17:40 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 10:24:20 AM
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Hi Etherfish and all....
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
existence exists, it has no opposite
Well, non-existence.
I don't know about that..... I am a little conflicted over taking a side on this, but the more I "think/don't think" about it, the more I agree with Neil. How can something "not exist"? Try and name one thing that doesn't exist. I can't. I'd be really interested to see if someone else can. To me, non-existance is just a word. Everything, even if just in thought form at THIS time, exists. There is nothing that does not exist. Perhaps I missed the "point"
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 10 2009 10:24:51 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 10:43:43 AM
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Try to find one "thing" that "exists." I guarantee you, you cannot find one. This is all just logical exercise/metaphysics and misses the point altogether. We have to go beyond the intellect to contact the real nature.
All objects are subject to constant change and are impermanent. Our perceptions of objects is dependent upon our mind's condition. We never see any "thing" for what it is.
The question of existence or non-existence is a deviation.
The door to reality is... Neither reach for nor reject existence or non-existence. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 10:46:00 AM
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| How long can a moment be extended and still be a moment? How much can a moment be divided and still be a moment? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 11:35:47 AM
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Perhaps it would be helpful to "define" what Existence is.... For me, the one "thing" that exists is Existence itself. Undefinable Existence......It is beyond the intellect yet does not deny it.
Love,
Carson
P.S. There is no reaching nor rejecting going on here....just pure acceptance. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 11:58:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Perhaps it would be helpful to "define" what Existence is.... For me, the one "thing" that exists is Existence itself. Undefinable Existence......It is beyond the intellect yet does not deny it.
Love,
Carson
P.S. There is no reaching nor rejecting going on here....just pure acceptance.
If existence is a thing that is undefinable, then it is not a thing.
To contact the nature of mind one must neither accept nor reject existence or non-existence. |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 12:34:22 PM
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| well lets have this conversation in the space of non existence I believe yin and yang occur to some deegree but really yin and yang are an illusion. I can go right for fifty killometers, and left is always right by my side, or should I say left has never left me. so I have not went away from left. The creative life force, GOd, is, awarenes Is, life is, it has no opposite. It is the space in which yin and yang and all the other stuff we talk about exists. Maybe reality is person dependent, so I see a tree and you do not, however existince exist. IT is beyond duality. That is my take on it. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 6:39:08 PM
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| The question of existence and non-existence is beside the point. This talk is a deviation. |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2009 : 10:36:58 PM
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| doesnt deviate from the title, just adding another proof of non duality |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2009 : 1:55:52 PM
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| What proof? |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2009 : 8:54:30 PM
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you being able to post is proof or existence  |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2009 : 5:37:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
you being able to post is proof or existence
I love this argument. I realize that existence is all because of me. (joking). Me typing doesn't prove existence exists (which actually doesn't mean anything at all).
First of all what do you mean by "existence."? Second of all this post was about proof of nonduality.
Points don't exist; they are "dimensionless" and also are nothing more than imaginary mathematical symbols. Geometrical objects consist of points, but the world does not consist of geometrical objects. The world consists of atoms; deeper than atoms are waves, particles and probabilities, but not points.
Duality is about subject/object dichotomy not geometry. Duality is about the mind. The proof of non-duality is a skepticism, that the subject does not exist, meaning cannot be found empirically. You might think that the subject typing exists, because it is typing. But this is the same confusion that says objects consist of points. It is a category error.
The subject exists conventionally as a matter of discourse and convenience, like points and geometric shapes. However, one cannot find direct evidence of points in space-time, nor can one find direct evidence of the subject.
A positive way to prove non-duality is that there is a human body with a brain and a consciousness named Ösel Dorje that is typing. If you want to make the further leap that Ösel Dorje exists, then go ahead, but you are not really saying anything more than what has already been said. The consciousness and body of Ösel Dorje is not separate from the causes and conditions of the rest of the world. We are all star stuff.
The point of non-duality is not logical, it is psychological. Our attachment to a subject/object dichotomy is the source of an ever present anxiety within us. But because this dichotomy "doesn't exist" there is no problem doing away with it. The dichotomy is a mental convenience, a fiction. Our attachment to fictions makes us weary. When we make the effort to look for the subject, we can't find it. Then, we relax with the knowledge that there is no duality.
Fancy and cute "proofs" using metaphysical jargon from unrelated transcendental realms like quantum physics, geometry, mathematics and modal logic totally miss point that the issue of duality is entirely psychological. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Oct 12 2009 8:11:02 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2009 : 8:35:37 PM
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"Fancy and cute "proofs" using metaphysical jargon from unrelated transcendental realms like quantum physics, geometry, mathematics and modal logic totally miss point that the issue of duality is entirely psychological"
well thanks for your response, a good read. I was not using metaphysics, quantam physics in my argument. I simply state that existence exists. IMO existence is ALL that IS and there is not opposite to existence. We are all part of it, the one. Yes you being able to type proves existence, but I am not implying that existence is only Konchok Osel, Dorje, yes that body is a part of it.           
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2009 : 9:21:55 PM
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"Existence is all that IS."
So what? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2009 : 10:59:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
the issue of duality is entirely psychological.
Wow - Thanks, Konchok.
There's only one place I've seen this stated as directly or succinctly:
Yogash Chitta-vritti-nirodhah
"Yoga is stilling modifications of mind."
~Yoga Sutras 1.2
To paraphrase Rumi:
"Out beyond existence and non-existence there is a field - meet me here."
With all respect to all here, and for this interesting dialog --- non-duality cannot be proven; it can only be.
Are you?
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2009 : 11:06:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Suryakant
Points are dimensionless.
Objects consist of points.
PS to Suryakant:
By the way, I wouldn't say that my other post disagrees with your statement, here (your words, above) -- I feel I get what you're pointing to (pun happily intended) ...
The points you're referring to are actually the "negative points" of awareness, yes?
Yet, somehow ... these negative points ... from the angle of multiplicity ... inform the form that can be designated as "objects" ... yet these objects, made of dimensionless points are awareness alone .... which is the entire point.
And so, from one angle, subject-perceiving-object could be called, for instance, R-A-M:
RAM
Yet, from the "angle" of wholeness, these things could be a single sound:
RAM
Sound about right?
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Oct 12 2009 11:08:03 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 6:47:17 PM
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| Actually, there's no need to prove non-duality, because duality cannot be proven. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2009 : 8:48:40 PM
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Nothing can be proven for that matter. All "proofs" are based upon basic assumptions, which are agreements upon "truths" that cannot be proven.
In other words, proofs follow the form "If we agree that A and B are true, then C must be true also"
But A and B are never proven. |
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Here's a simple proof of nonduality
